100th Show with Andy Chambers and Codex Tyranids

The onrushing hold of a Terran, it's warm her. Terrible sight to behold scuttling term against rub, shoulders with deadly genes, demons huge, carnufex is Lumber forward beside tall. Tara need Warriors in an avalanche of rattling armor. Plates glittering fangs, and gigantic. Claws, discipline is hard to maintain against such a Horrifying fo has many men are driven mad with despair or Frozen with Terror their

approach. It is well known that the destroying the more intelligent creatures in the Swarm is essential to stop at Tara need Advanced Training in recognition and fire discipline is of some help in identifying, the best targets but the chaos and confusion of the battlefield, make it difficult for troops to pick out their targets, amidst, the swarming mass of creatures. Ultimately, it is proven best to direct fire at the largest tyranids inside.

And pray to the emperor that some of them, the leaders Inquisitor acma holding the Abomination. Codex tyranids nice and colorful much love for tyranids. Are you asking me or telling me? Yeah. Well, both, I guess I have love for attorneys, how about yourself, really, clearly and more power to you at me, to actually, to a large extent. And we can see it right there. I get main credit on turn is because this wasn't the first

time. Turn its appeared in one of the 40,000 they were rounds right since Rogue Trader. But out of all of the races, I think in 40K, they've probably gone through one of the biggest Lucian's ironically enough over the course of their appearances. So it's an interesting snapshots look back at 2nd edition. I guess they kind of like you've been entertaining us for decades and doing different roles as a total creator for games and advisor and things like that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I still work in tabletop games now, but it must be said, I'm more often taker a Consulting role these days You have you got any involvement in their paranoia? So the resurgent heard Whispers? No, no, I didn't even know that there was a paranoia research again. What is that? The, the umpteenth time? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because I know, because I know of at least two paranoia previous paranoia's. So is this the third one was coming up, possibly?

Okay, now I know paranoia. That's fine, ate it? I've never written for it. You have to get your whip out issue. If you're playing as against Master believe, I don't know to assilex that the steps up to the great games, master to be evil to the place is just so intrinsic. It's almost no challenge that. It's true. It's easy to be evil now I guess there was a lot of influences with hearing aids. As you mentioned the been around for a long time. Time Doom of the Elder Starfleet further?

Yeah, the back Advance. My first, my first encounter with them. Aside from in Rogue Trader it was actually Advanced space Crusade. Yep. Which came out, you know, on the heels of well to try and take advantage of space Crusade.

Yeah. But in a curious twist of fate, for whatever reason it was decided I didn't Like right when I landed it back in 1990 and the Games Workshop Studio, I think it was actually 91 Gervais was working on it and I helped him out with it and I never quite understood the reasoning behind why they determine its. I mean, it was very characterful. We did a lot about her and it's which I kind of built on when it came to the in the second

edition codex. And we did a white dwarf Army lists in between times as well, just get them into 40K in a meaningful fashion. We got A few Miniatures don't like the carnufex. For example, was the biggest thing that got done at that time, some nice term against as we started calling. So how, how would you have been approached to sort of modernize tyranids from Advanced based your say, to you and attack Etc into a codex for Warhammer

40,000? It was at first, it was very kind of organic again, process in the there was some Plastics done. A ton of our had been done for advanced space Crusade itself, Adrian Smith yet, lot of Adrian Smith are, in fact me, was that the primary illustrated by think Wayne did some stuff for it to. And Dave Gallagher, it was all hands on because it was a big box game with, you know, floor pans, puppy organic leading, the war plans, sphincter doors, and

the whole nine yards. So a lot of effort got into it on that front, just creatively Because white dwarf is a monthly magazine. Always had a continual, you know, more to be fed for new material and honestly with black plastic 200 Warriors lying around and Plastics, you have to bear in mind were not commonplace back then, they were done specifically for a big box game and the rest of the Rangers would generally be done in metal.

So it was a real Rarity at plastic stool, so to have some 40K Plastics, lying around, not doing anything. Was just like criminal, basically only had genestealers as well. Of course, from space, also had Plastics genestealers, plastic 200 Warriors, and honestly, certainly back in second edition of those, that was enough

Miniatures to make an army. You know, you got two different kinds of Miniatures off, you go. We're Off to the Races, so it wasn't a big stretch to actually round that out a little bit further which is kind of what we did initially and that white dwarf list and so when we came to the second edition it was just like continuing that process of light. Blaring in some more creatures and I'd done Hive War as well for Space Marine second edition and that gave a big opportunity

to explore. They were always really useful to do on that level. The expansions for space frame because it gives you a macro look up the Warfare. How a fuck, how erase would fight? You know, they're big machines as well as all the little stuff so it stop you coming at it with too much. Vessel like Skirmish idea which was very easy to do when you came at it from the other end from like the Rogue Trader end. It's all about, you know, small Elite teams and stuff like that.

Yeah, but it force you to think about war, you know, the proper grimdark planetary Invasion, kind of level of War which was always one of the big appeals about 40K was the scale of it to me at least. So when it came to the Codex it seemed very right to select a the opportunity to lean into it more. There was a bit of a problem.

The advanced space crew said kind of view of tyranids and that there were this just completely Unstoppable, tsunami where they showed up, and if they showed up a planetary system, then that was that end of story. You know. There was nothing you could do. There was far too many of them to fight in any meaningful fashion show with a warp all that stuff. So almost have to like tone them down a bit from there to something that you could fight with a squad of Space Marines

and still keep that. Idea that only represented, you know, the Leading Edge of this again. Yeah, threat that would literally consume the planet. You were standing on given a chance.

So it was, it was an interesting exercise to get into really getting into that second edition because it was kind of melding that Skirmish level at one end, but with that Hive or idea of like the big war, the huge planetary Invasion, the massive bio Titans. And although the whole nine yards at the other end, when trying to get across the idea that It is an escalation and this basically games to be fought at every level of it. You can sort of say across all

of the games, a bit of crust, compatibility with units with turn attack Advanced basically said, etcetera and sort of maybe a bit complex and Bloated rule system to get an army versus army game happening which is obviously led to foot Warhammer. Thousand coming out. I guess.

My question then is there was a few things that got slashed a few really weird units to things like dominators from Rogue Trader or the to need skwiggs, which I absolutely love and struggle to get a hold of, you know, turn into that was sheer opportunism because the skwiggs have been done for what the Orcs that would just like funny little models that came out.

Spat out basically, in between, with the bits of leftover Putty from making Orcs, but there were cute, and there was kind of a tradition for it, because kale, Sorcerers years before had a nice little range of millions that just lengthen it mate and they're really popular. Those little models, people love

them. So they made the skwiggs to because they'll lots of funny and stick on the model, stick on the basis, things like that, but it meant that there was actually a range of Iblees. And a lot of them were actually kind of semi based off some of the advanced space, Crusade things that other little art from.

Yeah, yeah, Adrian Smith B. So it didn't take much to sort like, okay, we could actually turn that into a base of monsters and like I say, we were actively Scavenging when we did the white dwarf list who actively Scavenging for like anything that we could include into it, to give it a bit more diversity. Over 200 Warriors and genestealers, which were Two things that we actually had one

tournament. So the other guy, I guess, one of my other questions is to like you went from to need Warriors Hunter Slayers screaming killers, and switch to Latin naming conventions. Things like well that's right. Arn. Officially I was back, then won't lie. Yeah. Effects are still with screaming killer that that yes the kind of fix meant to butcher thing and I think tell your other meanings which I won't explore but Herod enough Of course. Yeah. Well who came up with that?

What was the deal with that? Me and Jess mean just got some came up with all of that. It kind of started with me doing a lot back in high for because I needed a bunch of names for like bio tanks. Bio Titans and things like that. I respect. Yeah, how respects Huayra. Duels paraffin malefactors higher offense, all that stuff or all out of the dictionary. Basically.

Yeah, because even back when we were doing Advanced space crew site, we started running up against problems with the this see that e names that the classic film became a towards the pincher poker and all this sort of thing rather than and they yeah and they just start to get a bit samey and meaningless the more of them you did and it was clearly going to become more and more of a problem, the more of them we did.

So that was why we made a conscious or decision to move away from that and give them effectively like Imperial designations that were a bit Latin e sounding which yeah after the books and go find loads of obscure words that aren't actually lesson. We still use them but they're obscure hired deal and stuff like that. It's not like a mega spile adjusts classification. Yeah, that kind of thing. I mean that that was very nice,

some back then. But there was this idea that, you know, there's this gigantic Gothic Imperium and it's scientists Gothic and it's computers Gothic. The spaceships with Gothic so their names for things Gothic as well to help lean into all of that. And it created more of a cohesive framework to use for expanding on the model range, and giving them distinct names rather than the the see that e sort of a names that we've been

having to resort to earlier. So, yeah, 100% conscious decision to move from one to the other, and I know people Miss name. He's like screaming current stuff like that which is when we kept them in his nicknames. Yeah. Of like well that's what the Imperial God and then I'm going to call it a carnufex. Are they call it screaming Killers? Or something like that? And two slides.

So it was still so like it was like it was a classic piece of 40K expansion of like, well we're going to expand on it. We're going to go technology what went before and trying to embody that with in there, somehow, but also take more onto the outside of it as we go and hopefully not create a problem for ourselves later, which was A lot of 40K was trying not to create a problem for yourself later and more like create opportunities for yourself later.

I guess another thing I notice like while flicking through the book itself is a lot of the older sort of art you would have seen in codex imperialis or model shots, that hadn't things like zou at swear. Now removed and replaced with shots with the newer model range. Of course, it was very confusing as a teenager to get Warhammer second. Second edition, boxset flick through the book. And then C units like so arts and think or what the hell is that?

But now one thing I'm going to say, first of all, is the way I pronounce that troop type also correct. Also at. Yep, I'm here. I know there was another one. I thought we'd go through that 12 of like, 200 from the planet Tyrant. I know, it makes no sense, but that's just the way it is. And so, yes, Oates was weird when I don't know why we drop them. Now, because they were always kind of weird, be popular. I think it was just felt like, I

didn't really fit. Yeah. Because the, the previous depiction had been as, like, semi ambassadorial creatures basically, from the turrets, which you could kind of weave in, but it didn't fit with a tabletop Army and I don't know why the models weren't up for it. I think they may have just been not viable anymore because the mold would enact or some. Sure. But yeah, we didn't include them and can I drop them out because they didn't fit?

The theme because turning in sin ever since Advanced space Crusade really turned his hadn't been anybody with diplomats, you know? Yeah, I would just, I Galactic hunger and you couldn't talk to it. You couldn't negotiate with it. It would just eat you. So the idea that we would have ambassadors was sort of ran counter to that. I mean subsequently it's been work that yeah they did at one point only best is actually kind of like went rogue. Don't try to separate themselves

from the My interns own. So there's been various stories around that again, each one a body build on top of rosin eliminate if you can. But yeah, I can chose to ignore them for a while. Really, there's one in the modern Black Stone Fortress, as a special character.

Yeah, this is a, this is a lot, a lot of stuff from Rogue Traders popping back up again these days because yeah, the universe is really well established and it all fits in somewhere if bit of creative thinking perhaps, it's not really a problem. So we went from sort of encounters with like ultramarines and things like

that. In Rogue Trader to fully fleshed-out High fleets and the history of the turn ID and the Imperial sort of goings-on and then hi Fleet Kraken, which is awesome to read about as a young lad collecting and Just one, I guess, one other thing I noticed was in the Codex. You've there's a few Army shots and you know, like, tyranids ambushing Imperials Etc, but you never see things like the hormone gone models or the Rippers for models.

You see a lot of the new models but do you think that was just because at that time that's what had been cast and painted and they hadn't gotten around to who I know it was. There you go. I love this stuff. Yeah. Model-making painting, assembly and photography didn't always run on a completely parallel track to getting written and sent off to the printers, particularly this early because no digital print back then. So it was all bringing things down.

Galleys and laying it out and taking photos with bromide cameras. So we will talk called very long time. So what you had available to do Fiat photography, it wasn't a guarantee that it was going to be the full Miniatures range. The point you were doing the book especially the color step color B because they had to be done earliest so that the whole process could come together because only part of the book was printed in color as well as

save money. So you had to have that all sorted out and ready to send off at the same time as the black and white sections to get it printed so and it was more complicated. So it was one of the earlier things you did. So the you didn't always have the whole range of models in many more fun for playtesting. And doing that reports of course. But yes we have three Hopper, gold medals. Okay, thanks and stuff like that.

Because it was one of the reasons I started even before this, actually for this to collect a play test Army of at least, decent proxies all the models or, you know, where we had like one model just like, okay, give me 20 of those so we can have some units of them, things like that. So that we can test with things that were about the right size and so on in our games cuz you couldn't wait on, obviously, you

couldn't wait. 8 on the Miniatures to be produced and go down to every mat or get paint and photographed and then be able to play with them. You know you want to do that while you are writing it preferably So a good segue on, I guess playtesting. You, there was a lot of new things that came in with the attorney codex.

So different targeting rule so that people could try and shoot it. The big things, which is also sort of carried on to the chaos codex with different unit types and huge things like blood thirst has to need tyranids didn't have strategy cards, they had what we used to call the tyranny. Pedro lie chart. So it was horrific things. That happened on the way into the battle. How was play testing these new rules. Right. And I know that this ition music gonna make it just like fishing.

Here we were far less focused on balance the it being fun. Basically in second edition language that was our main focus

would be fun. Now unbalanced too much unbalanced isn't Fun by definition so you have to watch it on that front but the possibility for World of wacky things was very much a part of second edition and because tyranids And of whacked from some of that facilities, some ways they didn't have tanks that could go out of control and crashing things that explode and stuff like that.

You kind of had to insert some of the randomness, the random event that's in different ways and doing cards was always difficult because it's just a codex. I mean. Yeah, you can put them in the color section and get people cut them out and all that sort of stuff just ideal. So one of the things that was kind of cool that always liked in Rogue Trader had been The hallucinogen, like Madam effect table and things like that.

So it was really the Turning random events table was inspired by that, and it was also a way against or light coming from that Hive War perspective of Total War, planetary war and things like that of bringing in elements that you couldn't do. Otherwise, the table top, which is the same thing. The strategy cards did as well so was performing an equivalent function of saying, you know, here's the equivalent of like some orbital bombardment Landing.

Random or something like that. So I apologize if they ever ruined any of your games but I'm guarantee you they made a lot more of a memorable than if it hadn't been there in the first place. Ah, man, it was the fun at like hilarious part of the game, especially the dismay on my opponents faces, when something horrific like Dreadnaught running out of fuel happened and the poor thing was now stuck behind a brick wall, you know, I loved it that's great.

Well that was kind of the issue with those use easy to love us. Are going to play acts it. Awful fix your opponent by seizing if you're in opposition to it. So I'm extremely apologize for that. I was a very young designer when I did all this so I don't apologize for anything. I may have perhaps over focused too much on the 200 player. Having fun at times, the Menace of the tyranids cannot be underestimated. They are unique in so many respects, their capacity to

mutate. Eight and evolve the biotechnology of their weapons and spacecraft Mega start Consciousness, and their single-minded purpose of being, because we have never been able to reason, but them are only interaction has been war in. Think on, we could learn, they are not all beasts. These creatures many are evidently cunning intelligent. If we could only We communicate with them how both the races would benefit with communication would come, Mutual understanding and respect.

The frontiers of human science would be pushed back, human and alien could live together in peace and Harmony records. Deleted from this pot. I order of the commission for human purity. Exit, the personal log of janitor Malin. When the pervasive nature of his dangerous theories was uncovered, the janitor was immediately removed from office, stripped of all his Rank and Privileges and sentenced to spend the rest of his natural

life in the prison. Last referral pen attempt a anyway, we're back about we're all here. Now we're looking at Hive tyrants. Hello. Hi of Turin. So if people who are listening are basically reading along and the Codex, we're on page, 18 s High fire ant. The big HQ of the tyranids finally has a model. Finally has some beautiful art from art Gibbons. Three Bayou, more Ugly selling it like this is cool. Yes, we believe you Market School 3 biomorphs.

Yeah, so a lot of flexibility Bella built into the idea because this was really you know you your character for leading the course. We couldn't have characters per se. You can have a Space Marine

captain or something like that. This guy had to be the equivalent so there's a lot of flexibility built in in terms of the different biomorphs he could have and choppy Weaponry as well of course because he was gay clinical and expected to take a hell of a lot of Frankly, it was going to be such an obvious Target for like every last Canada, could get a line on him

that he had to be really tough. Hey, I could have this x, can't be one shot and so on. Yeah, I mean it has a tendency to be a glass Cannon unless people are outfitting it or giving it a bodyguard or you find ever take it without a voltage field at least in my opinion. This is going back something. But yeah, you just don't Set foot on the battlefield without some sort of invulnerable save on it. Because I was just looking at it. It's like 4:30 Plus for my

carapace. Like that's not going to do you any good is it? Still a very formidable creature and yeah, beautiful art. And I guess the next thing in the Codex is the carnufex classic miniature, that's been around for a long time. Fantastic art, very divided Community. Sometimes on whether or not, it's the ugliest model or the most wonderful me that incur Andres was what hooked me into 2nd Edition for everyday, living

Peril that. Well yeah, and now I can see the can see that it is very distinctive is extremely distinctive. You know this because you can even scale it down to Epic scale, you can still tell what it is very easily. It's got that going for it. I was never a huge fan of it but I didn't really hate it either. It was the main. I think my main problem with it in the Terminus is that it was limited and that okay we've got something that's clearly very tough and it has Forsyth arms.

What's it going to do? Run into some things and attack them with its side arms, which is a bit inflexible. So the main thing he was to make it very, very, very, very good at what it did. And as you can see, it's going to Absolute chunker of a stat line for it. And of course, once again, you trick it out with biomorphs, you make it regenerate and things like that because again, much like the hive Tyrone in many jobs.

This is your bodyguard for the hive torrent because you make it so threatening that they're too busy shooting the FX what kind of x's rather than the hive time, but yes, it was kind of interesting because it was a think the first metal miniature that got done after the old plastic turn it Warriors. So it represented the big step in evolution aary terms, on the visuals, and things like that. Yep. Perfect love it. But yeah, as you said it, it's

very role-specific creature. Yeah. I mean we try to think of it like the by a plasma vomits. Oh, it got something to shoot at you, but that wasn't really what it was there for. That was the only sort of heavy done until the hive Tyrant came out with his Venom Cannon, pretty much. Yeah, and that was the one use for it as well as this. Like, it was something that could actually reach a vehicle that range. Because, yeah, 200 Warriors weren't so blessed until later.

But basically, when we started giving them Venom cannons, which is this addition in fact that belief. Yeah. So next up, Sharon had Warriors been around for ages. So I've managed to collect the ancient first, metal ones as well as the Plastics then they came out with a lot of options namely, the Devourer which has carried through to the current editions which is frightful gun you guys. Really came up with some

disgusting her. If you can bioweapons, that was all me. I'm gonna put my hand up to that old. Well, the original flash borer is it? Yeah. Thanks back to Advanced, space Crusade and kind of set the tone as far as I was concerned. So when I came to because clearly, I needed to diversify the Weaponry a lot and so I try to keep it all cinematically in line in terms of is all hideous things that, you know, hatch out of seeds or Worms that burrow into your nervous system and things like that.

Kind of cool lump of Flesh with black-headed worms that if they didn't explode, in acid on impact they borrowed in and then made their way through you know the system to your brain and so it basically resulted in I think a few tests or something like that if you lost units to it was pretty formidable. Yeah it's pretty cool. Tara need Warriors. I mean, they're great. I find And again, if you sink points into them, give them things like voltage fields and

stuff. They can have a bit of staying power, but yeah, people will come. Yeah, there I really like to reward as myself but they always struggled a little bit because they're in a kind of funny midpoint where they're in small issue units and that they're quite tough individually, but they're not. So Mega toughest Hive tyrants to be able to stand up to flax. Oh, I've always said you could only really use them if there were enough other big threats around like convex as in Hive

tyrants. And at that point, the children were extinct draw quite so much fire. But at that point, you start to run a bit low on numbers so and you do hate the numbers. Next up the lichter. So the little is quite insane when it came out it had a full page of special rules. Almost yes, obviously, based on things like Predator, Camille. Yannick Hunters, a fantastic

creature. And when you look through the old pages of things like turn into Tak, you'd see these gigantic sort of sight creatures in art but they weren't really defined as a specific. Thing yet. So it was this an evolution of that sort of thing. This is this is all of the terms I should say as well. All of the terms of me and Jess Goodwin working very closely

together on these. I used to go and hang out with him for like, at least an hour a day on average and we talked about all kinds of stuff and Terminus was a lot and he did a number of like concept sketches which are what step forward into

like, the hive tyrant. Evolved her and it Warriors a little bit more but one of them was elector what he called the lichter which we adopted a fantastic name and helped fitting with the carnufex lichter principle, and that was conceived of as being like a specialist turned Warrior basically. And the idea was to get something that was like absolutely 100% sort of thing that you get in a horror movie like running around a base somewhere. We're picking people off and

murdering individuals. Hence its Suite of capabilities which has the right to point out. There's extend to a full page and you know, it's got flesh hooks for grabbing people with or clambering about with and you can eat people's brains and get their memories and of course it can turn itself invisible and overall this has been a tremendous step forward. I think for terminate, kind to have that kind of thing because much like, I mean, we talked

about the random events table. And how that sets the tone and the flavor for tyranids. And this is one of those units that genuinely does as well. In the it is an individual unit but it's not a character per se, but it's going to really specialized function. And yeah, I always liked them, I always used to use one or possibly two of them personally because they don't ask mess with people. All those people that like taking heavy weapons at standing at the back in particular, they get it.

A visit from mr. Licked early on. And after that, the trying to set OverWatch pointing in all directions and all kinds of hilarious stuff. So good fun to be had by all really. Yeah, you could set up some really nasty strategy, see if you manage to psychic screen, say, a couple Elders like is you could pop this guy out to finish them off as they rolled around on the ground screaming. Yeah, he was great as a literal assassin as well, for going after characters.

So, just general backfield wonder, it was the looked as far as Because well worth the price of Entry was and relatively simple to use as well. You know, you got a lot out of him without having to be very clever. Franklin. Okay, we'll go next Zone. Throats. That was another thing. Another sort of like really weird, specialized turned Warrior idea. Now Jesse's idea was for the

floaty brain that we got later. But the in this Edition it was more far more of like a attorney warrior with a giant head. Basically as you can see, from the Nation. And yeah, so again, this was a way of giving heavy weapons in effect to the tourism which weren't heavy weapons because even though with I added in the Venom Cannon and so on, they weren't spectacular as heavy weapons or anything like that.

They would they would just sort of like it's okay, it's an autocannon with some bonuses or it allows kind of bonuses Zone throats with the things that were are now I melt you with My brain bolt, especially Vehicles. So they're kind of vehicle Hunters more than anything else. If I remember rightly, I think massive pain in the ass for the opposing just like kind of everything that's here is actually the massive pain in the ass but these guys particularly because they're one of these

things, you can't let them live. That was always my opinion about it. I was surprised if people didn't kill zone throats of the first opportunity because the amount of damage, they could output was outrageous.

You could also not only did they help add to the pool of psychic cards that you're drawing from but you could use them as as a almost like a threat so that your opponent would hopefully use demonic attack on them and not a hard time even though the hive tyrants like a little for seike, it's still a chance that you can just leave. It was always it was always a bit of a dangerous game to play in second edition.

With a psycho just have one powerful sychar because there were bad things could happen to you. So yeah, they were also there to help spread the pain a little bit on that front. Yeah, pretty cool. So term against the old Hunter Slayer evolved got some new weapons somewhere. Really, really cool. Especially I like the spike rifle. I never got to use the web Strangler enough, but I can change that now since collecting. Some you could just take some guys with Webster Anglers, can

you? Because I thought that was the dirty thing is, you just pick a few. So they survived magically. They got close enough to use them on the other will now stay. Yeah. They because you have a lot of big top end stuff. You know, you need some little grip, Lee stuff as well to keep the opposition honest. Basically, in the day, if they invest too much into just heavy weapons to take out the big guys, then the little guys crawl up their asses basically. So that's what these guys were about.

But there were mainly about being cheap. Yeah, you can take 16 basic term against for, I think 96 points, you'd have to wipe out the whole lot to get a victory point with signups around it meant that, that could actually be tricky for your opponent to do. Yeah, they just weren't going away and you know, the boat your ankles and stuff like that in practice, though, I found that they generally.

It seemed like in most people's arms, they eventually got replaced by Homer guns instead because they were fast and exchanging fire. When you've got crappy little guns is never a winning strategy when you can be Up there and sticking spikes into them. So Ripper swarms kind of similar kind of said what again just just a meat Shield, really? But in the form of meat Shield, if they get up to you, then the kind of a problem, but mainly there to be cheap.

Yeah, I mean, I guess again, from Community questions and, and just talking back and forth, the complaints were that they were too slow. They ate your precious terrain, right? Yeah, we need that guys. Yes, they looked really cool. Yeah, again, they were kind of in there more as a character piece than to Be an Effective unit Choice per se. I mean more powerful people to go like I'm just going to take nothing but a rapper swabs, which is an interesting experiment.

But yeah, they were kind of freely. And eventually when we did Plastics as well though, they were framed up, so that you got some rippers on every frame, just in the corner of the frame. So you could basically build up swarms of rippers for free, didn't even have spent real worth real money on them. So yeah, probably miss you slow in retrospect that it wouldn't have hurt to make them a little bit quicker and maybe they're consumed thing.

Could have been there an optional rather than yeah we just eat everything in the way. But what do you what do you want their the I guess. It also helps you use your turning screens. If you had them they were suddenly useless you could just get well yeah it was a nod to

that as well. I mean We change them to be looking at a bit more, you know, Tremors basically in general or like under evolved Turner's with little carapace has on them, but it was a nod back towards having swarms, and I say, they have their users, but really, in there, more for the character than anything else for the movie sort of thing of like, oh no, what's this? Great film Tremors?

It is and again, an inspiration. You know, I'd be lying if I didn't say Tremors was an inspiration for Turn it. Hey guys, that's awesome. Make goggles they this is again this is a jazz sketching up alternate Hunter slides alternate term against you know what would you do with it? If you could change it into like a batty thing instead which gets you to the gargle with. Also not back to that early agent Smith art as well from Advanced space, Crusade of?

Yeah, there was some make flatten everything things flying around in those pictures. Yeah, and the Very Geiger asked of like, you know, combining hands and fingers together into tubes, and faces and mores, and orifices that kind of stuff finds a home in here at particularly, well, shown in the artwork that so why? Yes, I'm a great super duper

handy to have. And again, these are part of one of the reasons that term against and fell out of favor, I suspect is because say you be the top gormogon's we took gargoyles or both. Because they could both do the Germans job but a bit better. Slightly more expensive granted but just way more problematic. Yeah that were very top-heavy model y so if you bump yeah they might snap but they were the perfect counters to Jet bikes because jet black to

open-topped. And then suddenly you getting hit twice automatically from this flame, it had the potential to kill the guardian inside and then suddenly the jet bikes, which were working you out how to counter. So, backline mortar, artillery, things like that suddenly needed to be guarded from these little buggers so they were great. Yep. And Homer gaunt's again. Big metal model tipped over a lot. Yeah, they're very, very low. Oh God.

Here they want to fall over all the swim the most cutting forms. Take the lowest pair of arms and just put them down a little bit so they just didn't it. Kept it propped up. He'll coins on the base or whatever it took, but they were, they were fantastic. Once they hit into combat. That was so annoying. I love them. Yeah, there was something just perfect about their kind of stat line that made them. Yeah, a real problem when they got to come back again, you know the units of 16.

If I remember rightly, you could have. So enormous that was so quick. So ridiculously quick that again, you've basically got maybe One shot at shooting them on the way in and if you don't take it, they're going to be on you next turn. So, there was something that could run across the table with a Chance of success and if you poke your nose out there could be on your intern once, oh yes, yes. Dear old home against one of those things that just works sort of thing.

Very simple, as you can see, barely half page rules, one Special Rule. But yeah and they just look at, is that line. Yeah, I mean, whether it was this another thing that you could stop a turn To a shooting because these things are in your face while all the big stuff lumbered up. So yeah, great, great unit. Next up is above or so finally, there was some sort of artillery, it was fantastic. Oh yeah, this is this is like taking a trip through my past sins. Yeah. By ovals by ovals again.

Yeah, an artillery equivalent so that you had an option for hitting things. In the back field without having to like run over there basically. So do the the trick with these though is that they don't fire shells or anything else. It drops poor Minds on the opposing side which are just drift around. They don't necessarily blow up until they hit something, which means that these things are gigantic pain in the ass because they get a launch off. They drop several mines.

If I remember rightly at once, don't they just one, but if you killed them, All the mines drifted out which is really funny. Yeah. And if you kill the moment it goes off. So yeah, it again. All about complicating things in people's Back Field between these and lictors and gargoyles. It wasn't a safe place to be because the small minds are really nasty as I recall, particularly nasty as vehicles

and things like that. Yeah, you can take units of small minds on their own as well, just to, basically create no-go zones, I guess, Oh, that's what I'm getting from because I would have bitterly do. That actually takes several Spore Moines to start with start drifting them around the place and then fired by a Vols on top of that.

So that it was a spawn point Rich environment basically which often pay dividends because it's one of these things that makes the opposing players so paranoid, because they're like what Congo there because the sport might hook Congo there because the small mind that they're so busy thinking about that than they've got genestealers eating them before they know it. Yeah.

They're Sika. Auntie bike be machined to because if you manage to penetrate but not blot the vehicle, then it would start to rot that would get in which is really cool. So yeah, it could cause a lot of problems, some and I guess Spore Minds became a big thing in the Pteranodon Army especially like battlefleet Gothic where you had units flanked by mines instead of the traditional Shields and

things like that. So, You just like take sort of earlier my cervix form ideas and just run with that. Yeah, it kind of It kind of came from the other, the end of the attorneys are space going species. So you know they landed. So the things that you see running around on the ground with legs or wings or crawling. They kind of the exceptions, the these things actually live in space. So they're going to have endless amounts of small, decreasing sizes of ships right down.

So, you know, drones and Spore minds and my set Expose and stuff coming off the the the actual Hive ships themselves. Yeah, we did a lot with I'm going to battlefleet Gothic, it was kind of a round from space Fleet days. There was small - yeah. There, which is where these came from, for the ones for this list. They were actually space fleets ball mounts. Just reused at a completely different scale. Eventually, make got some bigger ones, I think.

But Again though we had a lot of fun with them. In terms of the exam, the my static spores about the the kind of like that the horror story of being invaded by Turin incent having these things drifting around through, you know, your neighborhood. So Day of the Triffids works. Why is because they're not in themselves dangerous until you get close enough to them. But disturbing things to have around the old. Genestealer are old friend.

Yeah, jin-sil has, I mean, what can be said that has an already been said the been around forever in everything. There are these were my litmus test for whether or not something was bad ass because you know, you stack up the Avatar or the bloodthirster or whatever and it was, how can it can it stand up to how many genes dealers? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't about testing because they're this that wine basically got carried forward. It's just a keyless behind but you know.

They were firmly rooted in space Hulk, where one genestealer was entirely likely to kill a Terminator if it get to in close combat. So that was always from the acid test of like, aging slower should be able to kill a Terminator, 2 easily, in hand-to-hand combat exceptions made for his super good Terminator. He's got lightning claws, whatever.

So they kind of start from there, which does mean that they've got an outrageous that line and they're very expensive, which was always the big downside to the unity really don't be. In my opinion, I didn't use them very often myself because they just between being expansive. Not that hard to kill. They got targeted like 10 so they very rarely got to their destination in without a lot of

help basically. So, but there again, I say readily available and a great way of juicing any to knit Army, you know, put some jeans dealers in it and it's a major threat. Don't care who you are. If you got a unique genes, To us or to running around and that was one of the keys as well. If you going to use one unit used to because one of them will get a taste but then the other one will probably do the job on

its own. Frankly we see around you GT look Holtz. Yeah which is a hangover from very early white dwarf list for rogue Trader and, you know, supplemental material around space Hulk which talked about genestealers and G sealer, hybrids, specifically Patriarchs and so on. So, we would usually covered for that forward into here. As an alternate, kind of turned it on with you could take in effect.

Some of the best fluff in my opinion, of course, has come out, whether they were very well kind of like round now because they've been around for a while and had various different things written about them. Yeah, extremely Insidious, extremely Insidious. And, again, that there were great narrative tool as well. The fact they appear in so many stories like black Library novels and things like that, because the difficulty with attorneys that you get

narratively. Speaking is, you know, it's an enormous High Fleet of gigantic. Eric bioships that invades you eat your entire world. That there's not a great story there, apart from the getting buried under my settings stores, spores horror stories of being chased around by electoral.

What have you? Whereas your jeans do is they can do the whole scheming and plotting and you know, rebelling side of things which works well with the inquisitors and all the rest of it. So there are great Boon, well worth keeping it weirdly though, I noticed one of your questions.

So like, oh, you know, that putting them in the second dish code executed, consigned them to Oblivion for a long time thereafter because they just got absorbed into the tyranids, to be honest, they would have been gone completely by. Now, if we hadn't have done that because some people at the studio didn't like to instill a Colts, we had to kind of fight to get them in in the first place.

Yeah, that's good Insight. So, and that's why they didn't really appear in 3rd edition of tool it took until Till what many decades later. Yeah. Yeah. It's more than a couple I think now you might be Horace. Yeah, true. But it is comparatively recent and from what I've seen that

absolutely ball. A job, all kinds of different exciting stuff based off like doing a rebellion Force because they're what they're in, what they are is an interesting Rebel Force rather than just sort of like oh we've been infected by chaos and I'm going to turn against the Emperor or Rune infected by communism or something. These guys have been infected by you know a genuine creeping

alien intellect, very again. It's all the Classic 50's fear-mongering films about the spread of alien ideas, you know, basically a liqueur is about communism at the time. Which are embodied in the gene. Still a cult. So yes, I can do that. Hello fiction? We can go ever so some very brightly colored. Carnufex has? Yeah. Just scrolling past all the beautifully painted models. Yeah, the high tire and the carnufex just so iconic.

You guys Jazz them up a bit. Obviously, for some of the, the new photos for this codex, those kind of fixes with different colored heads, but the bodies remain uniform, which I've always thought was really cool. Yeah. Unfortunately those Lehman russes of have it cooked. Yeah, the maps of the influences. Well of we're turning heads had sort of coming to it. We'll always use their overall, the next page only because they are all Imperial been shown that this big inroads.

Yeah, I always like maps and codex has to give some sense of sort of like just place and Direction even though it's a bit of a nonsense when you talking about an entire galaxy but it helps with visualization. So and also to try and pile on this idea that they've been successive waves.

There wasn't just one turn into high Fleet She's kind of to break down on that idea in advance, space be safe, wherever there was just less tsunami of tournaments, and that would be it they would eat the entire galaxy. It's like, well, we need to break that down a bit, really, don't we? So, let's see how that coming in, in waves in effect which the Imperium being the Imperium dubs. These different ponderous

titles. But it's just the next wave of Terror and it's coming in basically and did you ever answer the question of what the banisters incident want? Nope, knocking my knowledge it may have been answered but I I remember a again we would actually drop stuff like that all over the place it cause we knew that then we could come back to it later and go like our okay, here's a white dwarf article or whatever or scenario or something.

But yeah, we'd have bitterly put all kinds of things into you there. The evolution of such as search and things like that. Very cool. You always come back and develop a later. Excellent. Yeah. It was just good, it was a good thing to do and it was very for UK, as well. It's a historical thing as well, when you read history of whatever Punic Wars, they'll turn to refer off to other things like you. Obviously, you would know about it, you know?

And it was kind of capturing a bit of that sense, as well of, like, history was bigger than what you're reading right now. And what this is about, there are other things that have happened, but we're not even going to get into that right now. He go, yes. I guess roaming the Kydex, also introduced New Missions, tier need specific ones. The most difficult being in my opinions here and attack where you had to wipe out every single one of your opponent's models to win, but you didn't get

reinforcements on that one, huh? Yeah, you just dribbled everything back in as soon as you could form a squad or whatever just toss it back in, it was Challenging. It was fun. And I guess exhausting, for some people, probably, I mean, it was supposed to be, you know, last and rorke's drift, kind of a scenario, so yeah, you wax. Yeah. Endless waves of Turin is so those were the times of the you are glad that you bought like, cheap units, the reason to wipe out because they could just come

straight back. Yeah, exactly. That's right. Obviously we went over the event tables but they're listed in the critics which is great. Yeah, I can't feel chuffed enough about those always slept and I guess the other thing I wanted to mention was the bioweapons. We've gone over their fantastic. They really kept with the theme and a lot of them have just carried on. And they've evolved a little bit

here and there. Unfortunately, they got rid of the flame spur, which sucks, but what needed biomorphs, they were essentially the hot thing in this codex because suddenly you could tool up your high point, you kind of fix etcetera to be tougher. Will do specific. Things couldn't have War gear before this. And that's, that's what they are.

They're will get here. But the Kind of pernicious as will get because we're doing the Syrian Army because they're effectively the Waka Choice. They're also an open option for lots of other things, like 200 Warriors, which is quite interesting, so they tend to individually. That's not, I was going to say they individually.

Don't necessarily do a lot, but when it's not combining, the get quite strong, but there are some standout wants to be fair that like same voltage, feel being the classic one.

I never personally felt the Regeneration was worth it, but a lot of people looks like it. Richard from bringing battle swears by the optic membranes and honestly, yeah, he's he's got something going there because all it takes is a flash from a conversion field or something, or Photon flare and and everyone's bucket in your entire cheering it on this. So it's something yeah. Thank you, Todd. Yeah, it's a question of, you know, how much you want to throw

at it? Because this is the other thing is you could like double the cost of your hive torrent with 10 more. So if you weren't careful, So it was worth taking some cheap ones and it was like, well, which one's the cheap ones are worth it. Oh yeah. They'll go like by a plasma attack, for example, 40 points of the model and so on. And then another thing, Richard also mention was enhanced senses are great, because suddenly that assassin, who wants to sneak up

and throw a Vortex Grenadier? You can't really do that anymore. If it's on your higher fire ant or what? Yeah, ironically was cuz I think considering the worries like 1:30, I am all for it like that. Yeah, that was one of the three sizes, too. Big to Notorious actually was like, you know, bring some light lonely ones, not particularly equipped or anything like that. But with enhanced senses with kind of worthwhile though if I remember right? I think the link to my have done

a similar job as well. I think that had enhanced senses other, it is 1.4 optic membrane. Yeah faulted field, it did everything, that gave you plus one strength it could. If you got hit it could burn out any me. The unit's Fields things like that. It was just fantastic. I'm highly recommend that if you never playing sand, all all for only 20 points, which is why I say I tended to, I think actually to be fair, I thought you took the warp field for the hive Tyrant because you don't

want to mess around. But yeah the voltage field was such a bargain and again to really Warriors of the voltage field was certainly a giant pain in the ass. Yeah. Bones towards felted field. Ha ha ha ha. And again easy to ignore because they're not shooting at you and turn it. Worries you shooter you should well they draw fire back but if they get up to you with v of fields and Bone Source, they're actually lethal. But that guy's so much.

It's true and false in case you haven't figured that out right now, actually, and another thing was the tourney had sworn selection. The percentages of what you could take, were wildly different from other armies. You could take 50% for individuals, which was, you know, not a normal thing to 25% Broods, but support you can take 50% of your army could be support which is a big deal. So yeah, you could feel. Yeah. Well it did to her. Have a lot of Support options

overall correct. What you do have is like carnufex is super expensive sport model, super cheap, and by ovals, so you didn't have an awful lot of options and it was mainly in there to allow people to have mass carnufex armies was white 50% because if it was lower than that you could really fit too many. Carnufex as then, where is it? 50% obviously, is as long as they can. Out with them, you can still get a decent number. Carnufex is into a like, 1500 Point Army.

Yeah. And then we come to the genestealer called lifts. I mean, I've had a lot of fun with it myself. You can take chaos allies, which was really fun. And, of course we get, you have an agreement with your opponent and you can take really fun. Things like chaos, Colton, some baseman, and stuff like that. Like that and sort of echo what was going on in Road trailer where you could have genestealer Cultus with corn, you know, symbols worshippers Etc. Yeah, it was a big grab bag.

Call Army. Really, I mean, we hadn't done a chaos Colt Army per se either. So it was just an opportunity. Cults of any stripe you wanted overall. - fine. I guess the tactics of the tyranids in the end like you can have a read of this. It had a lot of good info in it codex itself but when the Codex first came out I think a lot of people were really sort of having to get quite a few games in before they found out what works and what worked against

her opponents. And one thing I found Was turning into a so strange and weird. Your opponent had would struggle with finding out what the hell is going on in your army, and that would be to your advantage as well. Yeah. The well, that plus the boiler Morse when there was a sultan variability to the army of like they it was very hard to know what was going to be coming down. The point you when you were facing a terminal me, plus the the you know, the various factors of the random.

Events table, screwing up. Whatever plan you have. So it was an Army that you need to be quiet adapt fight against difficult Army to use in many regards because it very, very much Works in like self-supporting what rather not self-supporting mutually supporting elements. So part of learning to use it is to learn to you. So like several different things to get the same thing. Classic example, being like you could take four units of jeans too. Certainly.

And if they get your enemy than that, will destroy them. But the chances are, they were get there because you don't have enough other sporting elements. So the battle cannons will be raining fire upon them and all the rest of it. So you kind of have to present this, or like, multi threat environment, or of, which some bits of start going through them, the cracks of the pyramid, more things that get through.

So it wasn't on the surface, very easy to use it because it could be knocked apart fairly easily by in a big Weaponry anyway. Well, the Occasional Rogue full text, and things like that. So it is not the easiest deal me in the world to get to the snow. But once you knew it, it was absolutely deadly. It was my experience of it. I have to agree that not in the cows codex.

Brutal. Brutal forces to play against, but, you know, to be fair, we were coming up against Elder which were just ridiculously overpowered, in my opinion. But you know what to think. Can say about second edition cutting. See, there's not many codexes, you can go like oh, these guys are really weak sauce. You know, they're really hope the mustard is like every one of them is brutal in their own way. Yeah, yeah.

I don't know, you know what, your somebody, somebody can rush to correct yet even Orcs when it comes second edition codexes. But I think there was none of them that I ever thought of as being a pushover. Yeah, just based on what their army was like, I'm no none of them are going to say Space Marines, for a minute there, but no, not even them. Was there anything that you would have cut out, or was going to be in the Codex, but just didn't didn't make it.

For second edition. Yeah, no, I don't think so. I mean, we were scrambling to try and include as many things as possible, because you got to remember, tyranids hadn't really been hugely developing when we're done that white and white dwarf Army list and, you know, they've been space or could Advance pastry chef, but it was still a matter of taking the

elements. And okay, we will get into actually adds new units here to the budget as is, well, like, we can have this many new units, but I Remember anything that fell by the wayside that point we didn't get to do anything with larger Vehicles which we kind of discussed. But there was nothing really an epic, that felt strong enough to bring across everything that was good, like the Herod and stuff like that were too big, really bringing second edition or so we

thought at the time. So outside of Salt Lake, Brew Brothers in tanks and stuff like that, there wasn't any Prospect

for doing vehicles for them. But now, we basically went through Everything. Because I say it's a weird place because it was kind of developed very close on the heels sort of in parallel with Hive or for epic which is why you know the Epic 200 frame at that time has got things like it's got a lecture on it, it's got gargoyles on it and things like that because the designs were already around, quite a long way. In advance of when we actually did the second edition codex is go.

Remember this is one of the last codexes we did. Over the course of the second edition. So yeah, we took everything we had on hand and rammed it in the book. I wasn't happy that we actually managed to get some models made for it because there was by no means a guarantee in those days and we actually got a decent dish range. This one well definitely hooked me into the game, that's for sure.

We've got our whole heap of questions from the community and probably get Josh to pop in here because he's collated, A few out of hundreds and yeah again any thanks very much for coming on my today to talk to Ben and us about 2 minutes and we've got a few questions from our community members as well. So Brandi, dog, he asks who will eventually conquer the Galaxy? Will it be tyranids or chaos? Do you think?

I don't know. Overall, I don't think anybody will conquer the Galaxy in that fashion. I think it's locked into an eternal future of warfare between whatever's there because that also just ignores neck runs entirely. You can't let alone are the other forces. May yet be prevailed. So I don't think anybody's going to conquer the Galaxy. Verify. That's a good answer. Steve Queen also asked what was the idea behind the Ripper's

forms from a game point. They move slower than the rest of the army and eat cover so effectively. Effectively, they only really are at your own cover. Well, some of this is we touched on this. They're basically there to be cinematic more than anything else and effectively almost free as an extra character. Nothing in retrospect yet. Maybe they could have moved a

bit faster. Maybe they could have not eaten cover if you didn't want them to or something like that, but I think you also have to look them in context of scenarios like the Syrian attack scenario where people in Africa swarms in there, they will have a detrimental effect on your opponent because over the course of the game they will eat all of their cover so those four courses sort of thing. But yeah, not the most brilliant unique in the universe. I'll grant you that. Absolutely.

Be cool. Then dalgleish asks, when tyranids were first envisioned. Did you ever think it would be? It would get to the stage that they are at. Now, in terms of Law and model types, I either needs will eventually Devour the entire galaxy or the higher current guard made from Space Marine DNA. Yes. Absolutely. I mean, Jazz talked about turn. It's a lot and that potential and how they could be an interesting extra factor to throw into the universe of something genuinely alien.

One of the things that people have mentioned before is like oh, you know, in Rogue Trader turns in there, they've got like Vulcans, they got by a Balkans and biopower arm and things like that. That would have been more interesting to do. I disagree, I strongly disagree. There will be more interesting to do. We already have faction. That's using bolt guns and power armor, and all the rest of it to have somebody something that was genuinely and an alien force that evolved over time.

Which it ironically because you put it on you Miniatures and do new stuff. They have them and they're one of the few races in 40K that you can say, has kind of like, literally Embrace that and become more diverse and like, grown into their ranges and evolved in a very real fashion over time, I find that That immensely pleasing to mine own eyes. So maybe I was wrong, maybe they will conquer the Galaxy one day because they'll just become cooler than everything else in it.

So, Mark Buckley also asked us Andy feel that some of the Tyranny and artwork and minis were a bit cartoony. Compared to the a, I like horror that the background and rules felt like Some of it and some of it I don't like I'm not fond of his own throat. And second edition, for example, I much prefer the floaty braincase edition of it. I wasn't a huge fan of the carnufex in itself. I say it's kind of interesting but what do you do with that?

As I mentioned it can't go a lot of places in seen. It was like a very specialized evolution in my eyes all the time. But it was the Dreadnaught in effects. It was kind of setting the setting, the speed for everything else that was Dreadnaught sized in some ways and I didn't like that but overall no, I felt that the the artwork did a good cat. Do did a good case of conveying? The alien horror enough of it?

There was a huge temptation to slide down the route hugely into, you know, alien tiger stuff like that. It's obviously was always an inspiration, exasperation team behind space, Hulk, and so on. But I'm kind of glad it didn't go too far down that route because Geiger is Geiger.

But the other thing that's alien and the these aren't supposed to be alien per se there, this supposed to plug into the same sort of theory that whole evolutionary discourse on what happens to a race when they can evolve as they need to. But you know, literally go down the guy group, that's Geiger. Not fair last night. I thought the mark Gibbons artwork is very evocative and Graham. Yeah. So I think we're great Marcel. Josh asks why no limousines anymore?

Like I think he means for the genus devil Cults because of the that it might one. There was no model for it. And really by second edition, it was already kind of a rule that you didn't put stuff in the Codex. Unless there was either a model for a reasonable plan to make a model. Or it could be Directly converted from existing models limousines. Nothing like them existed anywhere in the Games Workshop

range. So yeah, you can go to a toy store or something like that and find a car, a converter and things like that. But we would really in the trade of sending people to Toys R Us to go and buy their models. So that was basically something that you'd cover in a white dwarf or a journal article or something like that. You don't put it in the make codex. The bone. So that's why they disappeared.

Also in second edition, it wasn't a small thing to put a vehicle in, you know, you had to do its own bill data facts, and it's saying damage tables and all the rest of it, which we did do eventually as they are thinking of the journal at some point, but it was a reasonable sort of commission of resources towards something that wasn't going to exist, and people couldn't buy it. They could only make their own and hence, it didn't make the cut for the Protects itself.

Okay, where's God asks, how did you manage the translation of tyranids from the Ford eco into epic? Whether it's where they balance issues ETC going from Skirmish to large scale. Not really as I say I can't remember the exact sequence but I feel like I actually did the stuff on hive will before we did the second edition codex.

So it was far more of a sort of like being able to exercise that theory about having mutually supporting elements on a large scale before, rendering it down to a smaller scale. So no it wasn't, it wasn't problematic. It was really was good actually to exercise them at both levels. I mean, one thing that we discovered Through that was that the slug tanks and stuff like that. We put into high for yeah, they didn't really do much for you

overall. There were tanks that look like slugs and as much as I personally like, the idea I pushed for those to go in, they didn't have legs sorry unconscious upon them in the long term. So there they were a bit of a bust and we kind of didn't really touch on them, what we came to do 2nd edition, I know that over in the US Army Last night, some like twenty eight Mill, scale, epic slip tanks and so on.

Well, the malefactors her aspects has and stuff like that, but we never really had any Prospect of putting them into second edition. As a real addition, it was all about the Infantry types. That works perfectly into the next question from jingles and because he asked exactly that

question. What was the story behind the armored cars tyranids with the Harrisburg similar effect and all those other vehicles were there something that the design studio felt the Codex was missing after release in terms or was it just more of an opportunity to have more models sculpted, or were the designs? You not even involved at all? To the best of my knowledge. I don't know what we're after. I think I'm a cast. Had some kind of a license.

I didn't know anything about it. Personally, they came as a complete surprise to me. And yeah, I like I say there was no intention of including them in the the Codex because we weren't doing select things. So I think there would be more being opportunistic or going like, because they do this with a lot of stuff that was in the Epic scale and wasn't in second edition 40K. It wasn't just look tanks. It was all kinds of things that they did upscaled basically and

you know God bless them. They want to play with those sort of things but they weren't part of the official range and so they weren't supported as part of the official range. Yeah, I'm a guy's a funny one eye because like you know, we I remember seeing those in the 90s, you know people ordering stuff from the US through my old to purchase these big resin kits and the notion of actually have would actually have rules and everything to use and when your game so it's a really I do yeah.

Like to investigate that more as to you know, who made the decision. As two years, we'll give them the license to make these properties based on IP and give them the rules and who was doing that, and that kind of thing. Because it's You got to remember the world was a much more of a Loosey Goosey Place back. When the term intellectual property is not one, I heard until about 1998.

I think we're talking early 90s here so it's entirely possible that they spontaneously started making them on their own. Then effectively got a semi license of some sort of Workshop afterwards. I really don't know what went down with those. Yeah, that's yes. They had rules as well. I had nothing to do with those,

they just break their own thing. So they, as far as I was concerned, they did their own thing and it was nothing to do with the mainstream for UK. It's these days, I put down as being like a fanservice kind of a thing to be 3D printing them and so on and Publishing the rules, which are so I have no problem with but it wasn't part of the main business. As far as I was concerned. Cool. And so I think we're going to say something.

I was just gonna say, I think Andy some quiet spot on the you both right there. They got sort of like a temporary license Etc. And then I think armacost sort of turned into Forge World in UK, so whatever license they may have had might have dropped off, but there's a lot of history there and you probably have to do a whole episode on that. Yeah, you you need to pursue that definitely because the fort

will that Games Workshop hands. Now Now who's got no relationship to Old armor cast or and again they call themselves Forge World for a time as I understood it. So yeah, I don't know anything about that, man. That's its do. That just write the rules, you know, licensing and other people doing other stuff and other continents Simon Hildreth asks, what changes would you make to the code? It's like the second edition

codex. If you had a chance, I think we sort of touched on it before as well. Changes up make to it. I told some things down a bit. I think, I don't think it to tone down that random events table, somewhat certainly give it a review, giving them the benefit of another 20. Something years of balanced, looking through the stats, as we were doing, just then there, there are some things, I mean, if I'm honest, this ball - the bio balls are probably a bit over over tuned.

Zone throats definitely are. I probably try and help 200 Warriors a bit more though. As I say there was occupied a really odd spot and struggled with it a little bit but I was like them. So that was like an internal problem that went on for another Edition for me. But overall overall know there's not a great deal of change about it at tweak, the balance here in a few places and stuff like that. Basically try and make sure the

opposition got to have more fun. I was guilty of this in all of my second edition code access where it was great fun to run the army that codex was about. It wasn't necessarily great fun to be only put on the receiving end of it although I could say it was a bit mutually. With destruction back, then with second edition codexes like that anyway.

But it might have been nice if, as well as the sort of like horror movie aspects of it. There were some of the horror movie tropes about how you fend off. The to Anna Devane is like, oh, they're all vulnerable to Salt, quick, men salt on your bullets. Get +1 strength, something like that. If you see what I mean. Yeah, analyzing of goop. And you get some sort of bonus

against them. I don't know which possibly Shouldn't have lived in the criminal code, X itself should have looked at some of the other ones. I don't know, we didn't have quite the, the link together thinking that we did. By the time we did Third Edition, we were doing second edition. It was very much like his codex, go off and write it. Whereas we actually it's communicated a lot more about how we handle the Codex as we did third.

So that's I think what I try and do is in retrospect to tone things down a bit try and make it more of a Joint experience, you know, maybe you have the first few terms with the Turner's don't even show up, you know, all you got to worry about is Ripper, swarms the lictors running around or something like that, and then you introduce the turned information. I don't know Senator Marco seconds and also I suggest Golems drawings from a period where are amazing but his

designs didn't translate. So well into the Miniatures where they deliberately turned down. Or was that, was it just because a practical limitations, do you think some of it was practical limitations of Mel? I mean, you'll note that they all translated fantastically into plastic when we ended up doing those in the next Edition Mel is, you know, we talked about some of the problems like metal gargoyles and melhor Merganser.

Those designs didn't work great as metal Miniatures in the end but the other factor is it wasn't just me. Acronym there they got formed out too. Some less experienced Minister designers will just leave it at that, shall we? For whatever reasons that the management Studio felt the need to give them turn is due. At the time, there was a kind of a bit of a push to try and get the Miniatures designers to try different things and maybe find

something that would be there. You know best range to work on and things like that which didn't always have happy results the early necrons kind of fell then fell into the same trap as well as like ours is an interesting space Collins and yeah that kind of cool though. Those only necrons but they don't have much they have the feel of his someone off snot, he is part of a range and to a certain extent, the these early turn is in 2nd edition to have the same thing of light.

He is just a one-off monster sort of thing rather than and evolving member of a swarm. That's Across the gallop into lactic space and is now arrived. And is adapting to your Galaxy even as we speak. Whereas by the time it hits 3rd Edition, you do get Plastics to support that more readily and a lot more work with biomorphs actually representing the by morse on the models that that starts to gel together a lot, better trying to work with Mel Rangers was always a bit tricky

on that front. Well, thank you and Andy and the last question we have is from never never, never Ness. Hobbies was the decision to roll the jeans to the cult as an army into the second edition codex, based off the law and where was it going at the time? Or one based on sales store sale sales, prep space, allocation that decision, buried the diesel a cold and it looks, it took them two decades to come back and we sort of touched on this before.

Yeah. Talking about this one went through the the pastry entrance for them of like, if they hadn't gone in this codex, that would be gone by now, man, they're just been gone. There were enough, people who wanted to bury jeans, still Colts forever around the studio, that this was their last best shot that remaining in the law. And so, they did certainly, that's how we felt from my end, the time there. So there was resistance to putting them in there, I strongly disagree that, it

buried them for decades. I think it's saved them. I see I really like the gentler causes actually, it's probably one aspect of the gene of the old tyranny Army that I never played to him as never collected models or painted them along like that. But it was one aspect of the my really appealed that was also part of the point of having the chance to look cool. In here words, it was neezy. A half step away from. Oh hey you know what?

I've got my box of space Hulk. I've already got 24 Gs dealers. Oh hey, I've actually got some Imperial Guard. I've got a Lehman, Russ all I got to do now is by a Magus and I've got Jesus look, all Tommy, and it's also more tanks and so you can sell some more tanks or even potentially sell people on the idea of, you know, expanding their hybrid Force. Then maybe get some tyranids stuff in there later and so on. So it was an approachability thing.

As much as anything else and I decide narratively it was important to have tin is not just as the indomitable wave of Flesh crashing down on your planet but also something more Insidious that could work. Work behind the lines can strike anywhere in the Imperium at any time. Was a very useful narrative to hope to have for them. Shame that the, the all hybrids didn't make it in there, I don't know. I think the world could do without those correctly and painted up quite a few recently.

My loving, I think they're really good. Thanks for saving the Janesville cult, because that's my perception of it. Except, oh, don't go to the pan with that too much. But it Kind of delighted me. I must confess when they came out full force was like, Hey, plastic Rangers and bikes are the vehicles of everything. It's like everything you could have ever dreamed of really by.

Yeah, I think they had a very uncertain future back in the early 90s, I can tell you Well, Andy Payne, it's been an absolute fascinating ride going through the Codex alternates. I've been educated a lot in this in our conversations today and even extend our greatest, thanks again from myself and been in the community for taking your time out on your Monday, mate. Monday afternoon to come and talk to us about it and to share your knowledge and your memories.

I hope they're all good. Memories, of course, from the 90s in the production of the chimneys codex. Ben. If any final thoughts bag unit, you can extend 2nd. I look, thanks for creating the greatest 40K race, of course, hands, not just me. Yeah, of course, of course, but your names on the kind of look, I don't want to say too much because that's very crunchy, but thanks for entertaining us for all the years. Obviously, thanks for continuing to do so, and lending your

expertise to or games table. Top Games Etc. Is there anything you're working on at the moment or you want to plug or anything like that? Two things, actually, multiple things, if you'll forgive me for a moment, if you've enjoyed my skirmish games in the past, like second edition stuff and so forth. Take a look at warlord. Games 2000 ad selection of games that mean car full of come up with strontium dog, Judge, Dredd, and slain the moment for

a fantasy version of them. And they kind of embody some of the the the cray cray of second edition in many ways, but wrapped up in a nice modern set of mechanics, which might well make your brain burst in quite the same way but they do actually manage to embody some of that feel they're very small level skirmish games you know as little as two to six guys aside but they're a good laugh. So those there's one check that out. If you like my kind of stuff.

The other one is I've done World War Two. Mass aerial combat game, Blood Red Skies, which is probably the best designed game I've ever done. In my life is the simplest simplest to learn and the hardest to master and it works with three stats. So I'm very proud of that and the other thing that I wanted to mention. So that's also from warlord games. By the way, Blood Red Skies, Midway Edition is out now. So you can go and bomb the carrier's ink the flattop as they say in Ghostbusters.

The other thing I wanted to mention is I am actually working on a, let's say, twenty eight Twenty, Eight Mill, tabletop, Skirmish game of the moment. Sci-fi kind of Mecca, based kind of a bit anime, Which I will, I'm going to be looking for play testers for over the coming months because we're moving into private play testing at the moment. And this is actually all the many things that worked on down

the years. This is the one that's kind of actually going to be painting miniatures again. So I think it's going to be fun but I'd like some feedback. So a lot of people write to me over the years and say oh if you were warned if you want feedback and things like that, let me know I'm asking for that now. If you would can contact me at the Ernie Chambers at hotmail.com or you can find me on Facebook under any Chambers. And let me know if you willing

to help out. And let's see where that goes. I'll put get married or be sags because I got numb in my soul that be right up My Salsa Ali. Ya, ya, ya know, the game sounds great. I'll definitely drop links in the show notes as well. So people who want to go and check out and he's links for his, his personal email or on Facebook, please have a look at the show, description notes in,

will see them down there. I'll drop a link in there for warlord games because and he's worked a lot with those game systems you've heard through for 2000 ad and slain of course is probably the latest one that and he's released Flames. The latest wants to come out. Those are all ongoing that's going strap on your belly wheel and take a look at that. Judge Dredd stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. You want to play the league of fatties? You can? I got Miniatures and everything for a man.

Sounds good night. Not going to check it out and Christmas is approaching. So they should put something in their Christmas stocking. I think this year, something new and Blood Red Skies as well. So you've got lots of stuff there, but then he's working at the moment and made that make a game. Sounds really interesting. So I'm looking forward to seeing what that turns out to be eventually so that yeah, watch this space was his post on.

So there will be more coming for that over the course of particularly next year, I think All right, awesome. Okay, my good sir. Thank you very much again. Any, thanks again, Dan for tonight, and have a great Christmas and New Year. Both of you and take care. We'll see you in the new year sometime. Hopefully, it does have a good one guys. Thanks for having me on today. It's always a great pleasure. You, you're a great pains to make me feel very welcome so I

really appreciate that. Indeed have a good holidays for you two as well. Thanks Andy, thanks very much and I appreciate it very much, so thank you. Take care. Bye bye. Take care. Bye. The Scavengers struggling for words, over the debris, littering the corridor, the soup. Like sparely penetrating, the swirl of dust kicked up by their progress. This section of the space, Hulk

was a complete wreck. The corridor walls were buckled and twisted ancient cabling spill from rents in the ceiling and the mangled floor plate, jutted up at such angles, that the group's movement was slowed to a crawl. The men were a mismatch of patched space suits and pieces of armor. Most carries shoulder armed with pistols, but the leader packed a path forward with a glowing

power supply. The lights picked out a You're way ahead, the Deep Shadows within it jerked, and length as the men, struggle through hordes it. The leader stepped inside the doorway, and swept his light around the chamber Beyond thick. Riveted pipes obscured the ceiling, but the floor was mostly clear, man. Hi, curiously, curved objects clustered thickly on the walls of the edge of sight. Sneaking tubes or cables seem to interconnect them and Trail a way across the floor.

The rest of the gang entered fanned out covering all parts of the shadowy chamber with their last guns and auto Pistons as their leader moved to examine the objects. At first he could not determine their purpose at all. They glittered in the light like black shiny seeds, the tubes were of a similar Hyun but with a bluish patina, where they spread over the basis of the objects and divided. To dozens of fine a filaments when he saw that.

Some of them were open. He finally understood and the hairs rose on the nape of his neck, just as a cold sick sensation Rose in his stomach, he spun round to shout at the rest of the run, but it was already too late man-like, creatures with for Claude arms. Dropped from the pipes above and ripped into the I'm with impossible speed screams and shots echoed around the corridor as the men were torn apart. But none of the black blue figures fell in a few Heartbeats. The Leader stood alone.

The creatures stalked closer their body is crouched as if ready to spring their pallid bulbous heads and Fang filled Moore's glittering in the light. The leader flourished his power sword with more confidence than he felt the blade was instantly, not from his hand by a blow that was too quick to see as the creatures. Darted forward powerful claws

gripped. His limbs The man was held helpless as one of the genestealers leaned closer, the hollow needle of its ovipositor slithered out of its tongue. Questing almost gently towards the man's face. One month later. Free Captain Lamas landed at gray area too. With a most unusual cargo.