The Real MF'ers: Ep 6: Garrett Moss
00:00
I think we're both frustrated by how our industry treats people, you can get so much out of your team, if you take care of them, we show them opportunity, you give them value, it doesn't need to be this ugly contract to do what I say mentality, we're just trying to change that step by step one job after another, and keep moving forward.
00:23
Hello, everybody, thank you for joining us today, I'm really excited to bring you a new episode of The Real MFRs with someone who I've watched and admired for quite a long time, and we met on LinkedIn. His name is Garrett Moss, he is the president at Moss utilities. He's very open. He's shared so much with everyone on there. And I'm just excited to bring him to you guys. So he can see how he got his business off the ground. And what he does now to build his marketing strategy in a very unique way, all through social media. Garrett, welcome to the show. And I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us.
00:56
Right, Scott, thank you for having me. Super excited to be here and excited to talk about everything you have today.
01:00
Well, the reason I'm excited to have you on is I've just admired what you've done in the construction industry, I always looked at you and I before I even knew you or after we even talked as I would describe you to others, I would always say like Gary is one of these guys who I think is in the construction world. But it's almost as if he came from a different retail background or other other industry. And he's bringing all these things he learned and somehow got thrown into the construction industry. Because the way you would just bend the norm or the way you'd present what I like to call a different customer experience. In a world that's been very specific and very normal forever, you're sort of doing that. But adding all these other things to that you might find another world. And I just thought it was a super cool way to go about it. I think it definitely made me notice you more, and I'm sure it's helped you really grow your business. Maybe if you don't mind. Can you just talk a little bit about how you got into the construction industry overall, and then kind of morph that into most utilities and what it is today?
02:00
Sure, so I am actually fifth generation in this business. A lot of people get into construction from their family. My dad, my uncle and my grandpa owned a construction company called moss construction from 8908. And, you know, I grew up with my dad being an entrepreneur. And so what that did for him, you know, he barely graduated high school, just worked really hard family business, they did really well for themselves in the 90s and early 2000s. And then 2008 They lost their business, you know, made some mistakes and lost everything. So I've seen the full swing of what construction can do for somebody. Both the highs and the lows. I was taught my dad was just gonna hand me to me that company that I just haven't easy. And then you know, as an eight in the middle of college, you know, he lost everything. And I was at college. Uh huh. You know, what do I want to do now got done with UT got an Austin and move back up to Dallas to other jobs doing stuff completely different, decided I didn't want to do the family business. You know, I'd seen all the heartbreak it cause when he lost everything and went to work for a barbecue grill manufacturing company, out of school, ended up working for an HVAC contractor for a little bit not really knowing what I was gonna do. And one day I got a fateful call from a recruiter to get me to go to another competitor of ours as an assistant project manager, I kind of thought that'd be the easiest way for me to be an entrepreneur and I was wanting to be an entrepreneur, I kind of saw that, in my path to own my own company with doing something. And utilities I figured with, with my dad's network of people, I can utilize that, you know, maybe try to get back into it. And then, you know, two years later, I'm starting my own business. And I love what we do. It's very tough. It's really challenging. I didn't know everything that went into it. I didn't really know what I was doing getting started and
03:43
learned a lot of stuff the hard way. How long has it been since you started mosteller.
03:47
We started in September of 2016. So my partner case and I work for a competitor. I was a project manager, he was a superintendent. And we just got along really well. My skill set was more in the office, learn in the pm side estimating. He's the field guy, he came up as a master plumber, and then got into utilities, five or six years before that. And he's super smart when it comes to the technical field aspect running the crews putting actual work in stuff that I have no idea about. You know, we started off the company with me estimating me PME him controlling the crews and it was just good teamwork, our skill sets bounce well off of each other. And it's been a great partnership that's had, you know, highs and lows and but it was really strong. We've been through a lot together and that's a big key to our success
04:36
was the case that said you know what, I don't want to work here and well and actually get into business or was it meeting case or was it your idea and UK sort of collaborate? What was the last push that said, You know what, let's jump out on our own.
04:49
I think I had to talk him into it. I think he was frustrated too. But one day, you know, you hear us both tell the story. One day we just decided to go meet at Starbucks and that's where mochi was born. We kind of just went up there and said You know, why can we do this for ourselves. And I think we're both frustrated by how our industry treats people. And we saw that there were no upward mobility for us where we were at, that the company didn't really care for their employees, like we do, we just saw a different way to do it. And we're frustrated that there wasn't any, any voice or option for us. And we got the plans together for the business, I borrowed some money from my grandparents, they were kind enough to loan me $60,000 and other retirement money. Our first employee was Parker, Bain, he's now our General Superintendent, you know, he started with cases of labor hand five or six years before that. So our teams just built solid from the ground up and really been a good fit for each other. How did you guys
05:41
take that initial thought and idea what you want to do how you want to treat people? I would call that that sounds like you guys really had a culture in mind that you wanted to create? How did you take your vision of the culture that you wanted, and then actually implement that into this business, then you've now grown from one employee to over 101 40 employees? Yeah,
06:05
we're almost at 200. And I think it's been, you know, step by step, trial and error. But that's one thing case. And I always agreed on, we've never disagreed on how we want to treat people. And he's a good voice for the guys in the field. And cases had to learn a lot about the money side of the business, how we have to be profitable, how we have to do certain things to make a profit. So you can't just have unlimited resources to give to the guys, but you can get so much out of your team, if you take care of them. You show them opportunity, you treat them like they're humans, you you give them value, you know, we really pride ourselves on that. And we're okay. With, you know, even that means less profit in the short term, by spending more on our people, paying them fairly, given the resources they need to the job to, in the long term, we're gonna win. We're starting to see that,
06:52
as you grow, you know, it's, I've found as there's more and more employees, it's harder and harder and harder for you to be close to each individual one, rather you as you scaled, how did you keep that culture at front of mind.
07:05
So we had a lot of problems with turnover and get started. You know, we would go through a lot of crews, a lot of superintendents, a lot of project managers. And it just took trial and error, there were lots of it that we thought were going to be special that didn't end up working out. But our core group, Kelly, our controller, Sarah, our director of HR case, Parker, myself, Shawn lane, one of our project managers been with us since the beginning, that core group has always stayed really tight. And in fact, and we've taken that group and built upon it, we have very little turnover, especially at the upper positions. Now. We, we keep our crews, we keep our superintendents, our project management team has done a 180 in the last year, I mean, our pre con team has been growing and great. So we really do keep quality people and you know, make it worthwhile for them to stay with us long term.
07:54
So tell me how now you took that thought process that you in case had you implement that to your team and your employees and your management team? How did you take that now to your customers? How do you interface with your customers? How did you guys decide to bring what I that what I call it the beginning of this conversation? A whole new strategy or new field? Did you do that intentionally? Or was that purposeful, or just
08:15
you know, when you're getting started, you kind of pick whatever you can get, right? You take whatever customer will let you bid their projects, you know, you kind of just are hunting for work. And you don't really know, we didn't have a lot of experience with dealing, you know, in our previous company, we weren't responsible for checks in any of the work. So work just kind of got handed to us, we didn't really understand that whole process. So what I've learned, especially in Dallas, this commercial market is cutthroat. It's, it's low bid and go, it's who can beat out the other guy. And, you know, we just didn't like that we didn't like working for the people that we were working for. So we've made a conscious effort over the last three or four years to develop relationships, you know, do a good job for our customers and work on our reputation and get business word of mouth and just enjoy who we're working with. I'm a big critic of the whole general contractor subcontractor relationship. I think it's kind of adversarial. It's, and it's how it's done. I think there's better ways to do that. And I've been pretty vocal about I think that needs to change. And that's gotten me some backlash, you know, on LinkedIn on stuff like that. But it's possible to create a true teamwork partnership with General Contractors and trade partners. And it's, it's possible to enjoy working with other people. It's possible to have fun while we're working. It doesn't need to be this you know, ugly contract, do what I say mentality, and we're just trying to change that step by step one job after another and keep moving forward.
09:39
Have you found that that approach has helped you basically quickly weed out certain general contractors or owner developers that you might be able to work with faster than others like meaning, you know, like, they know who you are what you're about. They lean into you quicker or they run away from you faster.
09:58
I say both What I like about LinkedIn is I get a lot of criticism kind of back, backwards, you know, out here, well, somebody doesn't wanna do business. Because what I say on LinkedIn, I'm like, I've learned how to be like great like that, that's fine, not the customer I wanted anyway. So it's good to weed those guys out, I think you're better off weeding them out ahead of time than you are going to do a job trying and go through all the pain of bad customer may take us two years to clear out, but how long the projects are. So getting started, we worked for pretty much anybody and everybody and we've had to whittle that down. And now we're a lot more selective on who you want to work with a lot more selective on who we did. You know, really trying to find the right, the right partnerships in the in the right team to be a part of, and then using branding, using marketing, using social media to get our name out there for the other guys out there that haven't used us before. But all of a sudden, they see us working all across town, they see our logo on our truck, they see us on LinkedIn, they see oh, hey, you know what, Masatoshi is probably a pretty good company, and that we that's attracted us better customers.
10:55
That's a great segue into what I also think is so impressive with what you guys have done with your branding and marketing. Can you just talk about how you, where'd that come from? What gave you that idea, and gave you the courage really to implement that know the value in it,
11:09
I think it was a good start, it was just pride. I had our first logo designed for $35 on our website and just wanted it, it was on both of our initial trucks. And I'm just really proud of putting our logo, putting a clean truck on the job site, just really understood that it's sometimes it's about how you show up and what people's impression of you is. And if you're getting started and you're brand new company, you have a big hill to climb to get work, people don't trust new contractors, they're, you know that it's hard to get work. So if you show up and clean branded trucks, clean equipment, newer equipment, you're not all beat down. People just think, okay, maybe a little bit bigger than I thought, or maybe they're a little bit, you know, more sophisticated to have more more juice behind them. So we've taken that to another level and our brand is really powerful and speaks our mission and speaks to our core values and, and what we believe in, and we've gotten a lot of good feedback from our brand, people love our trucks that love our logo, they could see us coming up down the road. They love it when we hit their job site.
12:11
It's interesting, because I think it certainly makes you stand out, right? So you get people's attention. But if they see you and they see the brand, and they see the trucks, and you're doing a great job, because that's the most important thing, and you're performing doing what you said you would do, then delivering and doing what you say and doing a great job then is synonymous now with this brand.
12:30
Yeah, definitely, it'd be one thing to show up with a bunch of new equipment, a bunch of clean trucks, and then not really be that good. We can't sell ourselves if our team is not they're doing a fantastic job. Nobody's gonna use us again, if we're not doing it. So while our branding and being out there being kind of loud about it, it's very polarizing, you know, we have a lot of people to talk a lot of crap about us. And that's okay, you know, let people if people aren't talking about you, maybe you're not doing something, right. We're pretty proud of the work we do. We're pretty proud of what we bring to this market. And, and we want to get that out there and let people know and work on building the industry up as a whole, not just not just us.
13:08
And I think it's great for your employees telling it says a lot about you guys, you know, just because you're on a construction site in the rain, digging holes, putting pipe in the ground doesn't mean that you have to do it a dirty truck, you know, it can be clean, you can feel good about driving out of that site.
13:24
Yeah. And I don't know why. But there's this stigma from a lot of our competitors, people in the industry that, you know, think having nice trucks like that showboating or spending all your money, or I can't tell you how many times I've heard that we're going out of business because we can't afford our trucks. It's just funny how people view different things. And you know, we really take pride in that and take pride in having the right equipment for the right job.
13:45
A lot of you will know the hidden secret is you can take an old truck that runs well, but put a brand new rap on it and it looks brand new, doesn't have a new truck.
13:54
Exactly. And that's a $600 Wrap. It's not a you know, a huge cost. So yeah, taking taking pride in your equipment and your and your vehicles and your shelf doesn't have to cost a lot. It's like dressing nice. You know, you don't have to buy the designer clothes to dress nice.
14:10
I couldn't agree more. So let me shift gears the another important thing that we always hear about employees to marketing is also financing and construction business. And you've shared that a ton. I mean, you talked about taking this $60,000 loan and turning it into the most utilities and today and how hard it is in the construction world the adversarial nature of it, but how did you finance the construction business? Why is that a topic that you're so passionate about and willing to share?
14:35
It means a lot to me because that's where my biggest mistakes have come from. And the hardest things I've been through been around how to finance this company. And I like sharing it because I didn't know any of this stuff case and I got started and we had a pretty good idea how to put the work in. I could do an income statement projection but I had no idea about a cash flow projection. I had no idea about how retainage was going to eat us up as we grew. I had no idea about how long it would take to collect some of the money And then what can happen if you run out of cash and how, how much sleep I lose How many nights I didn't know how we're gonna make payroll. So that's been the cause a lot of my anxiety and stress with this business, it's kind of changed me as a person. And now that we're on the other side of that improvement and going forward, it just makes me so thankful that I got through that, but it's hard. And people need to know if they want to go start a construction company that how you finance the business, how you cashflow it, your plans for growth, need to be thought about and the G and growth is not always for good growth can really hurt construction business. So it's got to be well planned out well thought about. And, you know, we got started with a $60,000 loan and then a small SBA loan, I was able to find a banker give us an SBA loan getting started. But we went through some really terrible banks, I probably interviewed 40 or 50 different banks here in DFW over the last couple of years, none of them like construction. No banker wants to Linda, new businesses, especially construction businesses. So it's been really tough. And we were able to do it somehow all with debt, something that I would not recommend. You know, for a while there, we were looking for equity options, we were looking for partners, we're looking for anything we can get our hands on to, to help us finance our retainage. And we went through a lot of operational struggles. At the same time, I had trouble being profitable. And we've gotten lucky and worked really, really hard to get to get out of that. And we're not going to be we're not going to forget it. It's taught us a lot of valuable lessons. And it's an important topic to me. And I like sharing it, I want other people to see that what they're going through, they're not alone in that, and that there's the options out there. You know, if you guys were around when we got started, you would have been a great option for us. And, and there's people out there going through through that, too. So
16:49
yeah, well, actually, it's good to point out I think a lot of people are probably watching this and thinking that you you know your customer mobilization funding, or we've helped you before and that's why we're doing this. And that's actually not the case, we've actually never, we've never made loans to mass loss never asked us to make loans them is really a relationship that Garrett and Scott developed personally just talking back and forth. And the thing that always resonates with me the most that you had said is like I just wish I knew some of the things I know now. And I'm always you know, hurtled, and I talked to our team about soltana. Guys, I don't care if someone's drive down the street and makes a phone call to us. And they're looking for a Jiffy Lube and they made the wrong call, like you're in front of your computer type in Jiffy Lube, asking where they are, and give them the directions and then hang up, you know, like, do whatever it is to help those folks help those people. And I want people to come to mobilization funding for whatever reason they come to us for and use our resources just to help them sometimes it might be our loan program, but most of the time it's not. And listening to your story, I knew there was half it's funny, because if you put the pieces together, the gentlemen I had spoken met with maybe a year earlier than that. You were perfect to come meet and connect with which helps piggyback you into finding somebody else to get you a job. So I needed which is great. But from a tactical perspective, if I'm another subcontractor listen to this conversation. What would you tell them to not do that you learned you wish you didn't do? Or what would you tell him to do? That could make a difference for them? Because you're right, banks don't want to finance construction companies, they don't want to finance new ones. But yeah, you made it happen. So if you were to shrink that learning curve down for them, and a couple things of what not to do and what to do, what would you say those are,
18:34
I think just finding somebody that does what you want to do, and go in and ask him for help is is a huge, would be a huge advantage. And so if you if you want to start a construction company, if you want to start any type of business, you know, finding that mentor people want to send the ladder back down, they want to help. That's something that I didn't do a good job of. If I if I did, I probably would have somebody said they're having me tap the brakes on our growth may slow down. I mean, like, okay, let's make sure we're profitable here at this size. Let's make sure we have all of our processes in at this size. Let's, let's wait until we grow. And I have people in my ear telling me to slow down a little bit. I just didn't want to listen. If you want to get started on your own as entrepreneur, it's great. It's really rewarding. But it's it's a lot harder than you think. And you really have to be thinking about where does the money come from? You know, our first three year projections we if you look back, I said we went to 4 million our first year 6,000,002nd Year 8 million the third year, for our first full year we did 22 million. So people people kind of like well that's a great Wow, how'd you do that? It's not great. That was dumb decision. It was uh, it almost put us out of business. And so all growth isn't great. You know, chasing every work you could think of without really know the repercussions of it. Not good decision. So I think you slow down, you grow in stages. You make sure you're working on fundamentals. You're working on your operations and you insert smaller sizes and then take it to the next level when you're ready.
19:57
Is there any type of certain financing that you would avoid?
19:59
Boom I think you guys say just as loud as I do merchant cash advances. We are one of the few people out there that have survived them. Those are absolutely terrible. They're it's loan shark money, I can't say enough, four letter words about those kind of guys. And we got lucky and we're able to get out of one. You know what, after that we moved on to an asset based lender and then back to a traditional bank. But a lot of companies don't survive taking out merchant cash advances. You need a true lending partner or a true financing partner that understands your business and can build something to help that's a win win. And those guys don't don't do that.
20:36
Your story is a good one, though, because you can think about the options you had. And the one thing I want people to take away from what you've said, and you've said it a few times. I don't know if you do this intentionally, but you've put forth a lot of effort. I don't You said you interviewed 50 banks. I mean, that takes a lot of effort energy, you're not like just taking the easy road. You know, if you take the easy road every time easiest talk to one bank, they say no talk to to shit talk to 10, you probably pat yourself on the back and say you did a good job. He still got no, but you went to 50. You know, I mean, and even after the 50th, one, you didn't get the best solution. But you got one. And then that one turned into another one. And I think if I were to have make sure anyone walked away from this, particularly this segment of this conversation, I want them to know those things that the effort energy poured into it is what got you the result, that wasn't like luck,
21:23
especially get really frustrated because most bankers don't. Right now, right now, they're just checking boxes. They're just hey, do you fit this little box? Do you have this ratio is this number right on your balance sheet of this, okay, here's, here's a loan and you get really frustrated with bankers don't want to really get to know anything about your company. Think about your story, there's not a whole lot personal banking going on anymore. And we're really lucky that we found one now. But it took trying, it took a lot of effort. You know, we even had a couple of equity deals fall through, I had a term sheet from a hedge fund to give us a bunch of money that fell through and being completely trot, probably fraudulent hedge fund. So we just been constantly plugging in our ability to just keep going one foot in front of the other. And just keep fighting. I mean, I can't tell you how many times we didn't know we were going to make payroll. I mean, as scary as that is, and I'm not scared to put that out there. Because people need to know that. It's real. And it's tough. And it's it feels a lot better getting through it now and learning the lesson the hard way, you know, I'm very thankful that we had to go where we did. But like you said earlier, it's taught me a lot.
22:25
We're never as alone as we might think we are. It's a lot, everyone's dealing with the same stuff. A lot of people have gotten through it. And a lot of people are on the other side of it. And all the answers are out there look for him. So I think it's great that you're willing to share that stuff. I want to talk to you a little bit about your marketing aspects, you know, you have done a great job, in my opinion, getting on LinkedIn talking about it. We've discussed that so far today, was that something you've always done? And you just took it from personal and brought it to business? Or did you start it with a specific intent,
22:56
I started using LinkedIn right, as we got started just a little differently. When we first got started, I would do a lot of cold messaging. And it was my way of, you know, knocking on general contractor's doors, LinkedIn kind of gives you direct access to some guys, you know, guys, you don't have their cell phone number, maybe even email address, but you can go add X company that you want to target to add everybody on LinkedIn and shoot him a message. And that can be annoying people, it's kind of like cold calling, you're gonna get a lot of nose or a lot of being ignored. But we got some hits off that and, and then one day, I don't know. But I just started voicing my opinions on stuff voicing my emotions about our business, telling people how I feel about certain situations, things I want to change. And that wasn't really a marketing program. To me, that's just me getting out. Just, you know, however I'm feeling that day, I don't have a set topics I want to talk about, I don't really have a set, you know, time of the day I post I really don't think about it that hard. I really just talk about how I'm feeling and be genuine about it. And I think that resonates with people. And the really cool feeling is you walk into a new customers office for you know, a meet and greet and they're like, man, I've been following you on LinkedIn. I love what you have to say they feel like they already know us as a company. They already know what we stand for. So there's some there's some real power in social media. That's not it's not really advertising. It's not really you know, marketing, it should get our story out there and get people to, to know what we're fighting for. And you know, you gave me one of the best compliments the other day when he said that when you read my LinkedIn post, it sounds like me, because you've talked to me before and it sounds like I'm being just myself. And that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying just to talk about topics that maybe people are scared to talk about, and just do myself. Now the other thing
24:30
met fellow mentor of ours Andy facil always says you know, half the people out there are going to be disposition to like you and half the people aren't and just focusing on the people that are more likely to like you and having pouring into them is going to be better use of your time and theirs. Then it would be to try to make the people that aren't really gonna dig you anyway happy.
24:52
Yeah, that's 100% True. It's a lot more fun dealing with that side anyway, just ignore the other stuff. I used to be really worried about everybody liking me. And everybody, real people thought about me. And now I've just learned just to be myself and the genuine people that care about you and want to see you succeed. Well, we'll be there.
25:11
So yeah, what's next for most utilities? What, Where? Where are you going? Where are you and chase taken us,
25:16
we just started a new company called moss mechanical, I'm pretty excited about most mechanical is going to do HVAC, and plumbing, we're going to specialize in new construction for custom homes, residential service, we're probably do a little bit like commercial too, but I'm really excited to get that company going, I've got another great partner case, myself and gray Roberts are partners in that company. And it's a completely different business model than utilities, cash flows a lot better, better margins in it, and we've got a really good team, and we get to go service people directly and read residential customers and, you know, give back to people and, and I like that aspect of it to being a little bit out of the commercial world into into residential. So we're pretty excited about that have a great team getting built there. And, you know, looking forward to continuing to grow as most utilities are projecting, you know, 15 20% growth this year from last year with utilities. Just do DFW market is booming, there's lots of work, it's still super competitive, it's tough, it's challenging, we're just getting better every day. So we're just living to fight another day, keep going.
26:24
I really think Man, when you take your brand, your style and your approach directly to the consumer in their own home, you're gonna separate yourself even farther and faster than you did on the commercial side.
26:37
That's, that's what I really, I think will happen too, because you can do a great job and commercial you can do, you can be the best utility contractor out there. But the next project comes along, and that GC is going to want you to be low guy, be a natural gas price or be competitive. Now, we could take value directly to consumers that are willing to pay a little bit more for that service pay a little bit more to be the best, and we're going to be the absolute best and anything we do because we're not gonna, we're not gonna settle for anything less.
27:05
There's a great book I read by a guy named MJ DeMarco called The Millionaire Fastlane. And probably the greatest takeaway out of that is a principle called sucks su CS. And it's superior, unexpected customer service is one of the best separators in life. And he gave this analogy about like you call a bank, and they answer the phone with an automated voice says press one for this and then press two for that. And four, by the time you get through your five minutes on the phone, you press 16 numbers before you wait on hold for 20 minutes for an operator. And he's imagine if you picked up that phone, and someone answered, and I think about that analogy of what what the average consumers expectations are when they call a plumber or an electrician, air conditioner mechanical to their house is such a low bar. Right that when you deliver unexpected customer service them, they are going to pour back into you 10x. And I think you'll see that business grow so fast.
28:02
Yeah, that's word for Yeah, we're gonna use word of mouth. I don't plan on, you know, radio commercials and gimmicks. And that's just not who we are, I think, yeah, you do a good job. And you know, we want to be the Cadillac and Premier HVAC and plumbing company, and we deliver that high quality work and those relationships, and that's going to carry over. So we're super excited about that. I wish
28:25
you guys are in the Tampa market. I can't tell you that I have a perfect residential plumber or electrician or H back first. If you ever want to have a satellite office, I mean this markets right for that I can tell you that much. All right, one quick thing we like do to wrap this up, like I call the lightning round three quick questions that you can answer just off top your head. Okay, first one is, what is the one thing that you believe determines a business success or failure?
28:55
I'd say the ability to deal with adversity and keep going. I think if you apply that to everything you do, and never give up, that you're going to, you're going to get through it. Do you
29:07
have one piece of advice or a specific thing that you want everyone that listens to this to take from this call?
29:12
One thing I've learned is if you surround yourself with good people in all aspects of your life, you know, family, friends, your employees, your team, surround yourself with good people and the rest can take care of itself.
29:23
Gary, man, I want to say thank you so much for taking the time to do this man. I really, really, really appreciate it. I think our customers, our clients, our audience is going to get a ton of value on this and your willingness to share your experiences, your candor the way you do. It is really, really awesome. Thank you.
29:39
Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate all your help. And you know, you give me a lot of guys support over the years. So
29:44
likewise, my friend likewise, everybody, have a great day. Thanks for joining us taking a listen. I appreciate it. We'll talk soon.
29:54
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