Finding Opportunity in the Trades (ft. Steve Cona) | #17

Solomon. Today we have a very special guest, the President and CEO of ABC associated building contractors here the Gulf Coast chapter here at Tampa, Florida, Steve Kona. And today you're going to hear us talk about everything from the apprenticeship programs that are needed certifications versus degrees, cashflow and construction, different legislative matters that are going to be presented to the state and other states to try to make that cash flow problem better. And much, much more.

Steve, welcome. Thanks, Scott. Thanks, Adam. It's great to be with you guys today. Thanks. We're happy to have you, Steve. Well, I want to jump right into it. Steve. Oh, she tell everybody just a little bit about your story. You know, how you got into construction, you come from a long line of folks in the construction industry. I know, it's something you're super passionate about that a great majority of your life end.

Tell us just a little bit about how you got into it and ultimately evolved into the president of ABC. Yeah, so you know, it's a it's an interesting story. Because, obviously, I was raised by by carpenters. My grandfather was a carpenter, my dad's a carpenter. All my uncles are carpenters, they, you know, they built you know, so many houses, when I was growing up every house that we would drove by, you know, my grandfather said, we built that

we did that. So I grew up being involved in the construction industry. And what's amazing is, the whole time that I was involved, you know, my grandfather and my dad were like, you know, you really need to go to college. And I'm like, oh, okay, that's, that's interesting. You know, you guys seem to be making a good living, doing what you're doing. You know, no one really had a college degree, I think my dad

had an AAA degree. But, you know, they were they, they, they learned a skill, and they figured out a way to monetize it, and they made, you know, a great living from themselves, but, you know, they always wanted, you know, their kids and grandkids to, to go to college and, you know, not realizing, right, the potential of really passing on the skill of being able to build something with

your own hands. Instead, you know, we, you know, they bought in, you know, obviously, to a narrative of, you know, let's, let's, he's gonna, he doesn't have to work so hard. But I will tell you, you know, my grandfather, I mean, no better role model in the world to have to look up to than somebody who can wake up every morning, build something, monetize it, and live a great life. He was the wealthiest man I knew. And, you know, the fact that, you know, he, you know, didn't graduate

from high school. You know, I guess, I guess, you know, those lessons they wanted to pass on and, and thinking that, you know, sending somebody to college was gonna, you know, be, you know, something that would, you know, better them, when, in the grand scheme of things. Look, they're sad, they're their grandson, you know, I went to college. Quite honestly, I hated every minute of it, I begrudgingly finished at the University of South Florida, got my degree in marketing, started my career in the

telecommunications industry. And now, you know, wound up back in the construction industry, where, you know, I could have probably saved some steps and, and gotten here a lot sooner.

But, but no, it's it's one of those things where I think the construction industry for a very long time has taken people, train them taught them skills and given them things that they've never, that they can make a great living at, they can become millionaires, is the quickest way to become a millionaire, I know is to get into, you know, this industry, because it's, it's much needed, and not a lot of people do it anymore.

So it's a good point. You know, when I was growing up, I always thought, oh, I want to be a millionaire to be a millionaire. And then you start to grow up and you realize, like, what dollars are worth and what you can get and what you can equate

you. And I remember the first time my dad told me, like, how much our house cost, you know, and the sad part is the house costs $35,000 But at the time, he told me that the house cost $35,000 It was like such an extraordinary amount of money that I'd never in a million shot that we write, I won't be able to buy a house that costs $35,000 You know, now granted, that might have been In early 80s, and that house might be worth a lot more now today, but nonetheless, you know, that

perception and that level of thought is the separation number is probably the same for everybody. So, right, it's all, it's all relative, you know, it's all relative in the grand scheme of things. It was no, it was no easier, or, you know, no harder than, than it is now. Quite honestly. It's just, it's just that just more zeros at the end of it. That's all. That's it. It's the same process, the same struggles, the same benefits, advantages, excitement, shortcomings, it's

all the same. You know, um, have you found what, as you entered into, are seeing new folks that enter into the construction world? How many of them do you think actually become millionaires that you that stood out to me? Well, I can tell you, you know, we represent probably, you know, 540, contractors in art, just art, just our network alone. And I will tell you that every millionaire that I know, in the construction industry started

off learning a skill. And then, you know, figuring out a way to monetize that skill, figuring out a way to be better than the guy next to him or the, you know, or the girl next to him, and figure out a way to, to make

money. And those, those are the ones that learned how to build something first, and then figured out a way to turn that into a business that that made the millionaire so every, you know, I have a very large network and the majority of the network of people that I know that are millionaires come from the construction industry.

I think that's so interesting, because the the, and it leads to my to my first question, which is why knowing that that's true, knowing that that's the case that there's so much opportunity and construction, why has it become the poster child? Or the butt of the joke of what happens if you don't go to college? Why is the perception of construction what it is?

Because, you know, what, I think a long time ago somewhere, you know, when people were out in the sun and learning how to build things and creating things. There was a stigmatism that those people that were they had to work too hard for their

for a living. And, quite honestly, regardless, in my belief, what you do, we've lost the teaching of the work ethic, that's the biggest problem, I think, that we have now is that there is no work ethic being taught, like, you know, everyone's just getting passed from one educational institution to another, and really, not actually learning how to work and to be able to, you know, sustain yourself, and learning those skills and traits where you know, someone who, who worked outside every day, you

know, they knew it was hot, and they knew they were learning a skill. And they wanted to learn that skill and learn how to be really good at it so that they could actually be the boss or the superintendent, so they can work in the air condition. But you know, you have to, you can't have it all at once, right? I mean, you have to be able to learn how to work, how to show up. And, and people who do that,

get rewarded for that. And I think that's one of the things, you know, in society today that, you know, we're really struggling with this, because there's a lot of people who want to come into an industry, but realize initially, it's going to take a lot of work, you know, and that's any industry, it's

not just ours, right? I mean, it's any industry, if you want to succeed, and you want to be a millionaire, and you want to be successful, people who are successful get there because they work, and they work hard. And they figure out a way to do that. And they're not, they're not satisfied with being you know, you know, broke or living paycheck to paycheck.

You know, you bring up such a good point, I've read many things, and one of the separators of businesses that work or don't businesses that focus on making money are way less successful, or how to chase success than businesses that just are started or seek out to solve a problem. And build something to create something of value for the people that are

out there. And construction is a perfect example that there's a problem, you have nothing on the ground, and it needs to turn into something that someone designed or made. And you know, you work with your hands and taking those skills and knowledge and putting them into an application. In practical terms. That's the part that gets missed in in school and to

defend school a little bit. I'm not always the defender of school, but to defend them a Dodge, you can learn like my daughter is studying for a geometry trial geometry test is that she's memorizing the formulas and she's using it well there's someone who learns geometry and then learns how to send a spaceship to the moon. Or just gets an learns how to get

an A on the geometry test. You know, there's there's something that happens between that person same one who leaves pool and applies it to solving a problem like sending rockets to the moon, or someone who does it. They both got the same a on the test, they both know the formulas, but how do you apply it? And that's the missing piece

that gets in school. But I think in trade school, if you think about the biggest difference, or you're learning a trade, you you learn it, and you're using it immediately an application and that's the missing link that actually sends people out of the world ready to actually do something with this knowledge? Yeah, no, I can't agree with you more. I think that's that you're right, that is the missing

piece. And I think the other missing piece is, you know, I don't think our educational institutions, and trust me, I'm a product of public schools, I'm, you know, I went to the University of South Florida, it's a great school, but really, the education, everything else around in the world has evolved and got smarter and more

efficient. I don't think the educational system has has caught up with the idea of, you know, why does it still take, you know, 60 credit hours to get, you know, an AAA degree, and 120, you know, hours to get a master's, when, quite honestly, you know, people can get educated and become bigger thinkers, the internet is all over the place people can learn in any multiple, you know, forms of another, I think, you know, the institutions have gotten out of actually testing and ensuring

that there's actually competency in what they're teaching. Right. Like, they're, like, you have to prove that you're competent, right. I mean, I, you know, I've graduated with a marketing degree, I'm not sure that I left being calm, competent, and, you know, being a, you know, CEO of, you know, of a marketing firm at that point, you know, but, you

know, what, what are we? What are we proving, you know, how prepared are folks coming out of college, I know, when, you know, our folks get out of apprenticeship, and they go from knowing absolutely nothing to a journeyman in their training for years, I see the growth and I know that they have those competencies, because they demonstrated them, you know, we don't expect that coming, you know, from you know, a marketing major or an English major, you know, coming out of coming out

of college. So, you know, we have to competency based training has to be evolved and and I think the education system has to start embracing that. Autumn, did you have a question you're gonna ask? Oh, I was gonna say is, so when you were talking about, you know, it's hard work. Regardless of, of, you know, whichever path you choose, it's all hard work. And, Scott, I know you have a quote from as Andy who says, Choose your heart. It's all hard. Just Just choose what kind of heart do you want?

Yeah, that was one of the best phrase I ever heard I learned, but he's like, let me just give you guys a newsflash. Now, if you're not following any facility, he is very unique way of putting it. It's actually the exact way that I speak to myself in my own brain. It's not necessarily meant for everyone, verbally, but basically, it sounds a lot like that. Listen, guys, everybody spends their whole life trying to figure out

how to avoid what's hard. And the key is, is nothing great happens on the easy side of heart. It's all on now. It's all hard. Everything is hard. There is no hack. There's no shortcut. It's all hard. So choose right now, which the choice you have is which hard you want to participate in. Being broke is hard. Working hard is hard. figuring out a way to solve a problem. Build a building is really hard. It's all hard. Raising kids is hard. Being a great dad, being a great mom,

it's all hard. Just choose which hard you want to participate in. And then you have to deal with the consequences of the hard you choose. That's yeah, Gary, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. Life is hard. And it's relentless. And you know, and you can you can choose to, you know, weigh on the side of misery or you can weigh on the side of optimism and wanting to be better. It's, it's that simple. It's all hard.

And I think, I think if we like the idea of spending all day outside, working in landscaping is would not be like I would be like, Oh yeah, Sign me up. That's the thing I can do. I love being outdoors and I love gardening I love like, I'll spend all day working. But you know, but my husband did commercial H back and the idea of being up in those attics all day. That sounds awful. But he

loved it. That was that was the heart that he chose, and you can make a really good living choosing your heart, because it's something that's fulfilling

to you. And that's the part that I don't think we do a really good job of telling people particularly in the skilled trades, conversation, you know, if that's if that's what you like, if you like the big cranes, if you're fascinated by engineering, you know, you don't have to necessarily go get a four year degree you can you can become an apprentice, and work the hard that appeals to you.

Yeah, and I and I know that, you know, we have all these tech companies now that, you know, they're coming, they're becoming a little bit disenfranchised with, obviously the products that are coming out of, you know, our educational institutions, and they're creating their own frameworks and own training programs. I mean, it's almost like apprenticeship for, you know,

the tech industry right now. You know, Google will hire anybody who, who can figure out how to write code and, and, you know, if they can just give you the training wheels and the, you know, guidelines, you know, they businesses now need, in my opinion, need to start investing in more apprenticeship type of programs, you know, to get people involved, you know, college, you know, I believe College is great, I think I

learned a lot in college. But I would have liked to have way more practical use of it, instead of figuring, you know, sitting here and, and wondering how I was going to work, you know, if a company company invested in me, like, I graduated debt free, because I went and worked for a company that paid for my college. But I got way more value working for, you know, back in the day, GT E, as they were paying for my college, I got way more knowledge of how business works, and how to deal with people

working. And then I just use what I learned in college, as you know, you know, as more relevance to the stuff I was doing. But I mean, let's be honest, I think you learn by doing and, you know, I think more businesses, I think what you're going to see, in the future, I'm not a futurist by any chance by any stretch of the

imagination. But I do think you're going to see businesses because of the skilled labor shortage, not only in the construction industry now, but every industry, I think you're going to see these businesses take it upon themselves to incorporate more apprenticeship type programs, where they're going to invest in people who don't know much, but they're going to train them up. And they're going to train them the way that they believe they can be successful and invest more in

their employees. I think if you had that, and then you you mix college into that, right, you make college part of that experience, I think that is, you know, creates a well, more well rounded individual, and worker, and obviously somebody who can be self reliant in the future, I couldn't agree with you more, because it's the absence of learning how to apply it as a

real world. And that's an easy phrase, I'll be even more specific in a job, or a position or a company or with people for which you are aligned and trying to accomplish the same goal, you have to learn how you can take your seat in that table or on that boat, wherever it is in the face of what you're doing and still add value. You don't. And it's not perceived value. It's real value. Like it. Yeah. And just be candid with what you can and can't do and ask questions.

Everybody feels like you come out of school, and you're supposed to have this degree. And you're supposed to have all this knowledge and they don't want to ask questions, do they feel like it's going to make them sound stupid, or, you know, you should be able to, you should be asking questions right out of the gate, so that you can take that foundation of information that you learned in a classroom and be able to apply it, but you have to ask

questions to do that. Yeah, shouldn't be the absence of real practical training? Ya know, for sure, for sure. And, you know, I just think that we're gonna have to see some sort of evolution, because I've never been, you know, in a market or an economy. And I guess it's coming out of the pandemic, and no one, you know, expected it. But we have a lot of people still sitting on the sidelines, and just not knowing, you know, what they

want to do. I mean, not everybody, you know, we can all survive, if you know, half the population is working from home, you know, we have to figure out a way to continue to move and grow and do things and learn new things and evolve. So I think you're gonna see businesses doing a lot more investing in their employee base and training and figuring out a way to excite and develop people, you know, in the workforce.

Well, that was my next question was how do we get those young people excited about the idea of how do we break through that old stereotype of, you know, you have to go to college or you end up digging ditches, and that's a bad thing. So how do we get those kids excited about a career in skilled trades? It sounds like a big part of that is companies recruiting early? Yep. Well, and I think a lot of it too, is, you know, and I hate to say, I mean, you have to start getting the message to the

parents, right? Because once you know, once mom and dad, you know, have their first child and the next thing they do is they open up a 529 account, or a prepaid college account, because one day, you know, little su or little Johnny is going to go and you know, gonna go to Harvard as well, you know, it doesn't it doesn't necessarily work that way. In fact, you know, you know, for someone who was who

sat on a school board? You know, I know, I know, not every kid goes to college and the ones that do go to college, a lot of them don't finish. So where, where? Where are we saying, you know, where are we trying to get them back. So we have to, we have to just open up their minds to different opportunities and

pathways to success. You know, starting an elementary school starting in middle school, like you can't just focus, you know, kids on, you know, achieving test results that are going to get them into college, we have to start testing aptitudes, we still have to start testing, you know, teaching them how to work, teaching them how to earn teaching them how to be responsible, those are all things that, you know, we need to start doing, and it comes down to the parental level we've

raised, we've lost a whole society, a whole generation of skilled workers, because we forced them all to go to college, now I'm getting them back. But I'm getting them back at you know, 30 years old, 28 years old, after, you know, they could have been earning a lot more money coming, you know, coming into the construction

industry at 18. Than at 28. So, but we've lost that generation, now they're coming back, because they're realizing, if I can figure out how to learn a skill, I can make a lot of money doing. And I don't have to, and quite honestly, that construction week, you know, it's an early start. But most of those guys are off by three o'clock every day and Friday, they usually done by 230. And there's not a lot of weekend work. And, you know, I will tell you, I'll give

you a story. We had a, we've been doing a lot of high school outreach, we hired some kids from PASCO schools, and got them into working with one of our electrical companies, this kid right out of high school, came through our apprenticeship program before he was done. Third year, he already had a brand new f150 He had a bass boat, you know, 22 years old. And and now he's the superintendent and running work. And, you know, what else do you want from you know, that success

in my book, right? Yeah, doesn't have a doesn't have a four year degree. But, you know, it's probably pulling down 70 to 80 grand a year. And, you know, single guy, I mean, he's living his dreams right now. So those opportunities are out there. But he came into the industry, knowing what he wanted to do. And he had a work ethic any and he went out and, and earned it. And that's, I think, the missing piece. I think some, some parents instill that work ethic

into their kids. And I think some think that the educational system is going to do it. And it doesn't really happen that way. You know, those are perfect kids to that at that point. He's making 70 or 80, grand, he's got great practical spirits. And he decides, all of a sudden, you know, I really want to own this business, or I want to lead a bigger team, or I'd like to figure out of how to take this project from its inception and not just manage

the team, but really do it. And then he goes back to school at that point, or maybe gets a two year degree on something to what he knows he wants to do at that point. Right? Yeah, that's what takes him to the next income levels that he wants, or he fills the gap of information he needs with that while he's still working. And that's a perfect use for school. And in case any, any doesn't graduate with 10s of 1000s of student loan debt. Correct, right. Yeah. No, I will

tell you I work. Yeah, I mean, I truly believe right now that if I went back to school and actually learn the same thing I learned when I was in school, I'd probably be a lot better student and actually have more practical use for what I you know, because I know where the pitfalls are, you know, somebody who has worked, and I'll give you my, you know, my wife is a great example, my wife, she just graduated from Florida International University, with her bachelor's degree, but, you

know, she started working right out of high school, you know, figure out a way to make a living, you know, raised a family, started her own business, learn how to learn all got all the HR certifications, she could she could get, but it never stopped her from earning.

But I think she was a better student, because she knew how to work and knew, you know, what, what it was she wanted out of college, instead of it, you know, being kind of dictated to you without any practical use or knowledge of how to how to implement it. I think you're a better student, if you know what you want to do, and you go in there, you know, to really take advantage of it. So Drew?

Absolutely. The Well, I'm going to switch gears just a little bit, because I want to talk about advocacy, because I know a big part of what you do at ABC is advocacy for the industry. And so I was curious what kind of legislative actions what kind of advocacy advocacy campaigns you guys have going on? All right now? Well, I think there's two things that we focus on as an industry. One, obviously, is workforce. And we've been open talking about that a lot. And apprenticeship training and how

that's funded by the state. The state does a nice job. Florida is unique. Florida funds, apprenticeship training, but it's not at the same dollar value as they fund four year universities or two year universities. And why is that different? So I think, you know, advocating for more funding in that realm has always been something that we're working on.

And we we've made some great strides there, there's been a lot more investment investment over the last three years in workforce education, I think Governor DeSantis has has heard the cries of our industry and is really, you know, going through and trying to deliver as many as much funds to help apprenticeship programs as he can. And that's been useful, but there's still room for growth

there. I mean, we have to, we have to invest in somebody wanting to be an electrician, just as much as we invest in somebody who wants to get a, you know, a degree in English. And until that's the same, you know, we're going to keep fighting, because we believe that, you know, that that should happen.

And I really think what we need to do, the next level of advocacy is to really talk to the educational folks out there, the, you know, the community colleges, and, you know, the the public universities, and really say, How come someone who has a four year apprenticeship that has had all the book work has an audio JT hours, and all of that work doesn't amount to a bachelor's degree in electricity? Like, why don't we Why isn't that possible? Right?

And why is it that out there? To me, it makes no sense that, you know, we're giving certificates to somebody who learns to be an electrician, and doctorates is somebody who learns you know, how to speak proper English, I think there's a mismatch there, right? I think we need to be better, we need to be better at that we're better as a as a society than to say someone who learned to be an electrician is less, you know, because I can tell you when that when that English Major has a problem, and

their lights go out. You know, there's only one person that can fix it. And that's the guy who has a certificate. So, you know, we need to do better at that. And feeling very attacked as an English major. So I'm just saying, I'm just saying, hey, you know, you too, can learn how to turn your lights back on when they know, I can. I have a husband who has certificates and he?

Yeah, so I mean, that's the part that's the part of advocacy that we need to work towards, like, you know, I think you really need to level the playing field. And as far as funding goes, you know, and we're working towards that. It's not perfect, you know, we have to get through a lot of, we have to break through a lot of societal norms to get to where we want to go there.

But I think, you know, someone who works 8000 OJT hours and 2000 hours a year, and puts in 144 hours a year of bookwork is just as you know, deserves to have a bachelor's degree in someone, you know, who doesn't do all that, you know, on the job experience and other things. So the curriculum is just as hard. You know, and I think we need to start valuing those occupations, just like we value the ones that come out of the university system.

Absolutely. You also worked on, you worked on the talking about leveling the playing field in terms of funding, you guys were instrumental in the changing of the retainage. Yes, for floor. Yeah, at one of our board meetings, we talked about, you know, why is retainage still at 10%? Especially and, you know, Scott and I, we've talked about this 100 times, I mean, the construction industry is the only industry that will finance a whole project with no guarantee of getting paid for

what they do. Which is amazing, which is amazing. Don't forget, don't forget while you hold while you hold 50% or more of the profit for Yeah, exactly. While while the person who asked you to build the project is holding your profit. Yeah, it's, it's crazy. So we wanted to try to what we do for our members is we want to make sure that we are advocating to make sure that it's easier for

them to deliver work, right. I mean, any law that we can pass that will help them with cash flow, and the law that we can pass with, help them with their workforce, any law that we can pass that that can help them be more safe, and be more profitable. We're gonna we're gonna go after and, you know, that was one that I think was easy. It was easy pickings. It only took us one session to actually pass that, which, if you know how Tallahassee is, usually it's a five year experience to try to get

something done. But we were able to get that done in one year, because it just made perfect sense. And, you know, moving it from 10 to five, on public projects was a big deal. Obviously, we still have some municipalities who want to hold on to that 10%. But now that it's the law, it's a little bit easier for us to recommend that they dropped that percentage down. So yeah, it's been, it's

been good. So anything that we can do to advocate to make sure our members can deliver work at a profit, we're gonna, we're gonna do, Steven, I gotta stop you right there. Because what you just said, is something we harp on

all the time. And I want to make sure this audience hears what you just said, here's the president associated building contracts, who spends countless hours generating money for the construction industry, the apprenticeship programs, the labor, who just stated, the entire purpose is to deliver work, for the clients inside deliver the cheapest work, he's

to deliver work. So price, and the cost is not the most important thing, its performance of the work is the most critical thing to the owners, to the general contractors, it should be to the subcontractors and anyone in between. And it's clearly the most important thing for the entire organization. President who focuses all his attention on performance, that

is the key. And that's what I want to hammer home again, and again, again, everybody's focused on performance and how you can deliver performance on time, every time and forget about delivering on the lowest price. And you're going to find that you're going to attract the best work who the real owners, the real GCS, the real sons that are aligning focus on why you can perform and build that is the key, you just said it, like I didn't even have to ask you.

There you go. Like that is the most important critical component. It's so it's so great to hear that that's what your focus is, and is on. And you know, we didn't even script this as part of that. No, no. But I mean, look, we live in every day, right? We know the challenges, we know how hard in our industry it is, to deliver the work, right, we know that you have to be the best of the best to deliver some of these facilities that you're seeing popping up all over town,

right? You can't build these buildings, without having, you know, being able to have sophisticated contractors go out there and deliver work and be able to make a profit, because look, my grandfather told me this a long time ago, if you're going to work for free, you might as well stay home, and

nobody works for free. And, you know, you have to you have to be able to not only deliver, but in our industry, there's a little bit more than just delivering in order for you to deliver, there has to be a lot of things go your way for to, you know, to

have a successful project. And that's why, you know, obviously, some of the things that we're doing with mobilization funding, I think, you know, I think help our members deliver that work, while maintaining, you know, their companies and their cash

flow. And everything that we've talked about in the past is the I was going to ask you in autumn brought it up now to the thing, the changes you made for cash flow cycle, and certainly releasing retainage, that directly helps and not only releasing it, but also lowering it from 10% to five that inherently is going to bring more cash into the project

sooner. But you know, one of the things you and I have focused on and of course, you know, the mobilization funding loan program that we built it on, is trying to find a way to change the cash flow cycle and the water, I call it the waterfall like how can we get the money on the project to start flowing off that project in a faster manner? And is there legislation that is out there now that we can work

on? Of course, there's loan programs, you know, the ABC loan program and mobilization funding, and our partnership does that, but is there a way to do it? Where where a contractor wouldn't have to? Is there laws or rules that we can put in place where a contract doesn't have to create doesn't have to find a loan to do it? They can actually, it can happen within the project? Is there? Is there anything on the table or ways of thought process that you've seen or are being worked on now?

Well, I think, you know, I think we have to be creative because right now obviously, in the economy that we're living in now, with pricing being all over the place, and obviously with skilled labor being you know, hard to find and hard to develop, you know, what, what is the next phase of advocacy that we're going to do for our

industry? How are we how are we as an industry going to evolve and I think as thought leaders in this industry, you know, I sit in all of my boards and sometimes with some of the issues that they have to, you

know, overcome. So I think we need to come together, you know, stakeholders, contractors come together GC subs, associates, suppliers just come together and figure out how is it that we can start, you know, delivering this work, where everybody is able to deliver the project without being, you know, cash strapped the whole entire time, until, you know, the owner decides to

pay? You know, you don't, you don't go into a movie theater, you know, and, and watch a movie and then pay for it afterwards, right? Like you pay before you go in. And if you didn't like it, oh, well, you know. So, you know, I'm not sure of many industries that would finance the whole project, without, you know, promise of getting paid.

And that's something I think we all have to figure out a way to work on, figure out a way to deliver the cash when it's needed into a project so that we're not stretching out our supplier base, we're not stretching out our sub base. I think, like I said, I'm not a

futurist. But I think if the company, the great companies that we have, if we can get them to the next level by giving them a tool, like what you guys are offering, you know, I think I think you can really help a company grow and take them to the next level. So that's why I believe in, you know, what you guys are doing. I appreciate that. And I, I haven't heard you articulated before, I knew it was important and valuable. And we do care a

lot about it. And as you know, we've watched the cash flow tool, and you've been gracious enough to give us time with your your members and audience to launch that and that cash flow tool that Steve's referring to, yes, we use it for our loan program. But we have it on our website, that any client or not any person on this earth can literally go to our website and use the cash flow tool to their benefit. So what does that mean? You don't need a loan, but you still want to know what your

cash flow? Should you take the project and stuff that we would do for clients that Steve Allen, we have now on our website that you can use some check out that cash flow tool, it is something that we're trying to help people with whether you're acquire a loan program or not use it because it is beneficial.

We'll drop it and I will Sorry, sorry, Adam, I will tell you I've talked to I've talked to several of you know, the subcontractors who have seen the cash flow model, and they're, you know, they're using in their estimating department now, because really, you have to figure out when this project is going to make money and how much cash it's going to take to deliver. And, you know, that's that's a tool that I think, you know, everyone should at least use when they're bidding a project that makes

me so happy. That's exactly what I wanted. Like in my brain. That was what I saw the future was going to be when we launched this cash flow tool. So everyone who's listening, I will make sure that the link to the cash flow tool is dropped in the show notes. Steve, one last question. So the do your part mission that we have, and you were one of the first to jump right on and I

again, so appreciate that. We've talked a lot about the reason the things today just different topics, apprenticeship program, college verse construction, conversations between subs and GCS, the payment model, the do your permission is our way of putting a name to all that, like, let's change these conversations. Let's just communicate freely. Let's like acknowledge the fact that someone isn't poor with money.

When you're living in this type of cash flow cycle, they just are living in this type of cash flow cycle. And let's let's refer to the fact that general contractors are not holding all your money. It's the owners are holding the money or the bank hasn't given it up and it's broken. The system is literally broken, but we're trying to fix it. And well, the last thing we need to do is make it worse by pointing fingers at everyone and blaming either the wrong folks

or each other. Is there anything that you think you can think of now that we've been out there that there's something that we can do to better acknowledge that to people in the world or folks that are hearing us today on this podcast? What can lead do in their everyday lives that you've seen successful in and out of construction? Again, you're one of those unique folks that are in the middle, you know, you're not a general contractor, you're not an owner.

And you're not a subcontractor, just like us, we see all aspects, but from your perspective, what is some what are the things people can do in their little world, their microcosm of the world, their friends, their relationships, their businesses, that that can help? Exactly what we're trying to do? Well, you know, I think we I think we all make our livelihoods in the same

industry, right? And you know, if one part of our industry is suffering or is feeling that, you know, you know, if the subs are stressed, and the suppliers are stressed, it's not going to make a perfect world for the general contractors and it's not going to be A perfect world for the owner CEO, because they're going to, they're not going to get the quality product, you know, project that they want

delivered. And I think ultimately, I think we said it earlier, we all have to be invested in delivering the value of these projects. And that comes from all of us working together, and figuring out the best way to build these things.

So we all have to be open to new conversations, new dialogues, this industry is, is very unique, because it is a relationship industry, there's no more level of trust, than you have to have as a subcontractor to have trust, that the general contractor is going to do their

part, right? I mean, your motto is like everyone does their part, but you have to, you have to have a level of trust there, right, you have to have a level of trust that the GC is going to do their part, you have to have a level of trust from the GC that the sub is going to be able to deliver what they promised. And that the suppliers are gonna be able to get the supplies and the materials. It is a relationship based industry, and we need to work together to solve some of our challenges.

And right now, our challenges are, you know, pricing increases labor, cash flow on projects, I mean, these are the things that, you know, the cash flow on projects has been a problem for years, and we know, we're, we're just not figuring that part out. And we need to figure that out. Because I think if we want people to invest in come into our industry, we need people to be able to start, you know, start a business and be able to, you know, become a company

owner. And this industry is hard to it, I mean, it does take some time to do that you can get there. But you know, there, there is a way that we can make it easier for people to be able to, you know, mom and pops to start up and, and come in and be very valuable in this industry, we need to, we need to get more of that influx of those kinds of folks back in the mix. And that

helps. And you can do that by, you know, increasing and making these projects, being able to be delivered without cast Strapping, you know, accompany and, you know, keeping them locked in. So there's tons of things. But I do think, you know, we need to build relationships, start building new folks coming into our industry, new business owners, people taking a chance and coming into our industry, we'd make it easier for them do that. Yeah, I couldn't agree

more. Steve, okay, I got a couple of last questions for you that I want to shoot off. Sure. First one, I'm going to ask it to you a little different than I normally ask this question. But what is the one thing that you see, bring us bring construction businesses down, or hurts them

significantly? What's the one mistake they tend to make, that you see in your experience that ends up really hurting them or bringing them down it, it's, it leads them away from this path of success and becoming a millionaire and having the chance to be successful? What is the thing you see them do is anything for them to avoid? What is I think you need I think you need to avoid the low bids. Let's be honest, you know, these low bids, from a GC side and

from a sub side. It doesn't like I said, it doesn't do anyone any good to put a number on something and know that you can't deliver the work for that price. And for, you know, a GC to know that they can't deliver the work for that price. We need value bids, we need the right bids, and we need the right people on the right projects. So I would say you know, it's tough like we are we are an industry that is you know, Uber

competitive. Right. But, you know, I don't think I don't, I think we need to stop taking work. Without having profits associated with it. I mean, I really do, I think we can go we can do a lot more for our industry, if we realize that, you know, we need to be able to make money and be okay with making money. Because, you know, no one does this, you know, to be broke, you know, they do it to make a profit and they do it to employ people and they do it to you know, make a living for

their family. So, you know, we have to we have to come to a conclusion that you know, to deliver the types of projects that we deliver, you know, those come with a certain value and we need to make sure that that value is maintained. And I heard this from an old time GC from back in the day that I that I knew and I had a lot of respect for he goes look, it's not about the low price, it's about the

right price. And you know, the right price is the right contractor, you know, doing the right thing and being able to deliver because I can get way more work at the quality of the buildings though well, and the quality's died, and it's built on time, I make way more money when that happens than taking the low bid, you know, all the time. So I think owners need to

understand that too. I think owners need to understand that if, if the value if you want a value and you want a quality project, then that comes, you know, I'm not saying at a premium, but it's definitely not bargain basement. Right? People gotta make money like it is, yeah. Um, do you have a certain piece of wisdom or advice that you want to share

with the audience? If there's maybe maybe they've been great way to ask you is, is there one thing that we've talked about today, if there's nothing else that someone takes with them? What is the one thing you want them to walk away with this month? You know, I think a lot of people, when they're in their jobs, you know, they have their

blinders on. They're running their business, you know, you know, if it's Johnny electrician, or jelly plumber, or whatever their businesses, they're really singular focus on, on how they're going to deliver value to their customers. When I do think that, you know, this is not this is just a plug for ABC to because, you know, there are people out there, like ABC associations out there, that are investing in the

industry. And, you know, I think, if you want your industry to be great, and you want to continue to make a living at it, I think investing in your industry is helpful. So investing in training programs, investing in associations who are doing the right things by your companies, I think all of

that is valuable. And I think when you have your blinders on, you're so focused on trying to deliver and not seeing the whole picture of what others are doing to help the industry that is that is helping you make a living. So I think I think it's just that I think it's investing in something bigger than you know, just the the actual project that you're trying to build. If you are making a living in this industry, I think you should be investing in the industry as well. Great.

I think we should leave it right there. That was awesome. Well, thank you guys. It was it

was a pleasure. Yeah, that was really insightful man, I'm telling you, like, the things that you are hammering home on, is exactly in line with what we see and customers I talk to, and the messaging we try to give, elicit the messaging we try to get literally comes from the experience of talking to customers, and I'm just like, why don't we just do one just do a different than and then sometimes you hear while I can or you don't understand. It's

just not like that. And I'm like, well, there's 10 other people doing it like that, you should do it too. Like, yeah, have you got that perception from it's not needed? And then that's the one thing that I that, you know, has been a challenge for me. So you know, I've sat on school boards, and before I was on the school board, I was on a college trustee board. And you know, it's just getting, it's just getting people to think differently and evolve. Because everything around us is

evolving, right? And, you know, you have some entities that are just kind of stuck in like, well, this is the way that we've always taught people this is the way that we've always educated people. Well, it's different now because people can get educated way, you know, way cheaper, you know, they might not be learning the right things, but they're

learning things. And, you know, they, you know, it's the information is out there, there's not, there's not a course that you can take in college, that all the answers to the tests aren't online somewhere. Right? So, I mean, let's, let's be honest, like we need to evolve a little bit and how we, how we educate and train people. And that's a hard conversation to have. And, you know, that's one of the things that that I've been trying to

do. I appreciate the value of of higher education and post secondary, but I think, I think we don't start evolving that. Because we got a lot of people sitting around not doing stuff, but they got degrees. And we need to figure out a way to get folks involved in producing, producing something in, in, in America somewhere. It's getting rough. So like you could probably cut all that out. I was just cutting any of that out. Well, Steve, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to

join us. For those folks that are haven't aren't aware of ABC, please go check out the ABC Gulf Coast chapter. You can follow Steve on his LinkedIn you can follow Laura gross. And we'll put the names and ways you can follow them. Laura is very much involved heavily in ABC you can she posts all the different content they have, you can go to their website, you can get all kinds of free content, access to schools, classes, anything going on in the area and a lot of

stuff is online too. Of course we put out a lot of content as well so you can look at our site or information for anything that ABC is doing as well. and I see you I just want to thank you, man for being so honest and sharing and open and communicating. I think you're definitely going to help a lot of people here today, listen to this. And that just means a lot to me personally and to all of our clients, customers and audience. So thank you. Yeah, it was great to be

with you guys. And I'll do it anytime. Thanks, D we appreciate you. Thank you guys for listening to the real MF first podcast and until next time, we'll catch you later. See ya. Take care