#383 Tim Sprague from Pound 4 Pound joins us to talk about framing and forming in high-end BC

Who knows? I might wind up on the cover of Rolling Stone with a pair of shades and a Grammy in my hand. Just a blue jean boy in a great broke world of yes. I got my speech already in my head. Then I'll say, then I'll say, I'll say, thank you uncle Dean for teaching me La Bamba on guitar. Thank you girl from Broken Bow who shot narrow through my heart. Thank you mama for the role and thank you daddy for the rock. Most of all, most of all,

thanks to the Bulls that buck me off. Yes, yes, man. What's going on Tim? Not too much manny. Oh man, this is crazy. I feel like I'm in Vancouver. I'm in Whistler. No, you're supposed to make it to Vancouver, but you never did. I'm coming one day. I'll be out that way, but you're here, which is great. And you just knock it in. We just, I guess just magically the DM's kind of lined up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you were just saying,

mom, coming in for the weekend. Great. All right, let's sneak it in. And you just finished some shopping and now you're here and we're recording. Yeah. What a whirlwind. Thanks for opening up the show. I know it's what were you singing there? I didn't recognize it. It's Kip Moore, the bull country. No country boys. I know pound for pounds in the house man. Yeah. What do we want to talk about? Everything. I don't know framing, forming,

building permits. Let me do the permits. Huh? Oh boy. This is interesting. Your website is actually pound for pound. So LB. Yeah. Yeah. LB for LB frame form.com. That's clever man. Yeah. I didn't know that pound for pound. Yeah. I totally dig that. And then Timmy at pound same way, pound for pound frame and forming or frame and for frame form.com. Yeah, you got it. And that's it. Right. How do you pronounce your last name? Sprag. Sprag. That's what I

got. Yeah. Like the Toronto Jays pitcher. I don't know if you know him. No, I don't follow him. Back in the day. Unfortunately. That's way back in the day. Instagram is pound for the number of pound framers. Yeah. Thanks for coming man. Thanks for having me man. It's been a funny couple of years. I know we've chatted a number of times on Instagram, DM and shit like that. And now I always tell you and everybody else, here's my number call.

Yeah. And you and I did. We've had a couple phone conversations and it was great man. We'll talk. That's all it is man. We all live in the construction life. We're all kind of going through a bunch of crap and shit. But yeah, work is good for you. Yeah, works good. You got a nice build going on out west man. Yeah, I got currently two builds going on. One's up in Wedgewoods. That's for a homeowner slash builder. And then I'm doing a second

one in another subdivision called Alpine. Okay. And that's for actually a developer and he's not a true builder, but so how's the crew good actually just ramped up. I've been struggling to find guys as everyone last four years. Nobody wants to work or nobody's out that way. Yeah. Wish there's hard. It's a very like whistler's very transient. So like, you know, people come for a season and they screw off. So it's like they'll come

for the winter and then maybe hang for the summer. They'll work for the summer and then kind of they'll leave. How are you getting all your work man? Still all word of mouth? So I kind of it's a lot. A lot of it's through connections I made within the industry before

I went on my own. And like, I purposely did that I came up under a builder. And as I was his project manager, I purposely took the extra steps to like, you know, be the one emailing the architects, the engineers, the suppliers, like, you know, and my other formers like, Oh, you know, you don't get paid yet. But I'm like, Yeah, this is this is the, you know, this is the long game. I don't need to get paid now for it because the long game

is these connections should last and bring in money in the future. When I tell you that man, like, how are you? Or is that your thought process? That was just my thought process. How young are you again? How young? She 30. I'm a 92. So yeah, dude, I was out of high school three years already. Could be your dad. Yeah. No, I just like it's funny how

I see a lot of these young guys like yourselves, man, like pure talent. Yeah, just pure talent, understanding the game, understanding how to how to how to work the construction industry. Right. But obviously there's there's like ups and downs, but but you're still working the industry, right, which is really good. You're being smart about it. I totally have spoken about this as you've heard so many times. You guys, you younger guys are actually

tackling it a lot better than the older guys did when they were getting started. Yeah. Right. Which is good to see that. Right. But yeah, that's why I was just trying to because I know you got some good stuff going on in the work and I was just trying to figure out

where you're getting all from and connections are smart. Yeah, like a lot of it's from that, but then, you know, social media has been a big thing too, you know, but social media is more, you know, they very know the name and then social media is more of a portfolio. It's kind of like out there in the open. Yeah. Word of mouth. Whistler's a pretty small, pretty small town and there's a lot of work with not enough people to do it. So it's always

going to be the case. No. Yeah, Whistler. Yeah. Whistler's a we call Whistler a bubble because, you know, even when you guys, I know I wasn't building really at that point, but when was it 2007 recessions? Yeah. 2008, 2008. Well, what happened in 2010 in BC, the Olympics. So monster. Yeah. So like 2006, 2007, 2008 Whistler's never slowed down. Wow. Right. Even now it's it's crazy as ever. But the work is good. Yeah. And pay is good. Yeah. And clients

are good. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, it's a, you know, I've always said we're really blessed to build in Whistler because of what we get to build the clients we get to build for because, you know, it were the projects are, you know, there's quite a bit of money involved. So for me, they're a lot more fun, fun to build than, you know, some track homes or something

like that. No, you don't want to get I mean, how are the clients are they involved at your stage they're coming in, they're checking it out, they're part of it or no. Yeah, as you probably know, it depends on the client depends on the project. And, you know, I built where, you know, the client was overseas, never saw him. I've also built for clients who are on site every two days and they wanted to, you know, they want to clean up, they want

to help out, you know, so it ranges. That's nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It depends. It depends. Sometimes, you know, those clients, you know, they showed up for concrete pour once and, you know, right. That's kind of where I don't like you're in our way. Get out or you know, you know, what's the saying like, you don't need to see how the sausage is made as long it tastes good at the end. Right. I like that. So, you know, concrete pours, they get pretty

intense. So like, you know, that's not a that's not a teaching day. No. And like, you know, just, you know, yeah, I forget what happened. I had like a spacer block and it fell in a form and it was 12 feet down the form and there was an exposed wall and I was like swearing and cursing. I started ripping the form apart. The clients are there like, Oh, what's going on? Should we be nervous? Yeah. No, this is concrete pouring.

It's fine. This is a typical concrete pour. Yeah. Yeah. When did you get started, man? Cool. I know we talked about it, but I mean, I want other people to know. So it's like, you're a kid in my eyes, you're still a kid, right? You're a kid, man. And so I mean, why, why did you choose construction? Why did you choose framing? Why did you choose forming? Why, like, why did you get into this world? I guess it kind of just fit the lifestyle, to be honest. I moved out West just after

high school. I had a little bit of carpenter experience just doing Rinnos and stuff for a guy back here. And where was it? Anyways, just outside Newmarket. Okay. So I had did that for a couple of summers and then I moved out there and I just wanted to be a ski bum, actually. So I was, you know, applying at every dishwasher job so I could work nights and ski every day. Couldn't get a job because I had no experience. Nobody would take you on?

No, because at that point in Whistler, it was like, it was actually opposite as now. There was like job fairs. So like you'd line up to get a to get a dishwasher job. There'd be 20 guys in line with a resume in their hand. Wow. That was 12 years ago. Now it's like the complete flip. But anyway, so I basically lived for a month and ran out of money. And there was a bunch of construction ads in the paper.

And I said, Oh, well, I got experience. E-mailed a couple was on site the next day working that fast. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't know much. You're just learning as you got. Yeah, I was like, I was a straight, you know, I'd done Rinnos for two years, I think. And that's about it. But you were up front and forward with them telling me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I started as a laborer kind of thing. Right. Yeah. That

was it. Just a laborer. And then, uh, yeah, I came up, I worked for a big, big company in Whistler. It wasn't really my cup of tea. Uh, there's huge, uh, cost plus builder. And it was kind of, you know, you were just a number and, you know, uh, Did you feel it? What? Like you felt that you were just a number. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And there was more of just a money making machine. And I don't know. I like big customs. I like to be the, the, in the middle of kind of like efficiency track

building and custom, like high on custom building. I like to marry the two. And that company, I kind of found there was a lot of like hands in your pockets, walk around, sweep the room three times. And you know, Were you just making mental notes of what my business is not going to be like? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. And at that point, I wasn't really sure what I was going to do. Cause you know, and thankfully my dad kind of like, you know, I didn't know what I was

going to do. And my dad kind of pushed the trades actually. He was like, well, why don't you go be a carpenter or get into the trades? If, Hey, if you don't like it, get your ticket, it never goes away. Exactly. You know, in 10 years, Hey, if you're not a carpenter anymore, that's a skill that you'll always have. It doesn't matter that it's not your career. You could build your own house one day. Yeah, exactly. Or if you're getting your own house

built, you at least know a bit more. Yeah. Right. So it made a lot of sense. Yeah. So that stuck with you. Yeah, exactly. How's the rest of the crew? Is it the same kind of thing? I mean, who's the youngest on the crew and who's the oldest on the crew? You're not the oldest. I'm the youngest. You are the youngest. Yeah. Are you serious? I think so. Oh, no, I just, I actually, that's a lie. I just hired on a new Aussie guy and he's 23.

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around the job site, cutting, striping and disposal. Find them at triple W fab hyphenated form.com and follow them on IG at fab form industries. But he's a baby. Yeah. But I'll tell you, I don't know. I don't know if you ever work with many Aussies. No. They're hard workers, man. Like I found all the guys who come over. But I think, I think, I don't know if you've had a podcast, but I was listening to a podcast

from the Aussie builder before. I don't know if it was on here or not, but well, it was quality, right? But technically his mom was from there and then he took the name and made it. Yeah. So those are Australian connection there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. And I've heard like Oz does a lot more fixed price. Right. So it's the trades are, I don't know,

they seem to have a little more hustle there. They do. Yeah. Yeah. So the guys from from Oz always seem to be pretty like, I'd also say there's a little bit more respect for the trades. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say Oz, the guys in trades are held to like a higher standard. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I know a lot of guys that came from Ireland or even Europe that made their way through Australia and then eventually to Canada and

they had that mindset. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. So he's, he's a, you know, I haven't hired anyone younger than me in a long time and he's actually, it's great. He's a ticket to carpenter in Oz. A 23. A 23. And he's good. He's good. And his dad, yeah, he's, you know, his, he came from a long, his family's all in the trades. His dad and his grandpa both ticketed carpenters in Oz. So he's swinging a hammer and diapers. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

He'll be swinging a hammer and diapers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Still in diapers. But to be honest, that was, it was a big breath of fresh air, man. I haven't seen that. And you know, like I said, mostly everyone else is older than me. And yeah. Is it, is it Tim? I gotta ask you, is it, is it nice to, and listen, I've gone through this shit too. You lose the love for the business, man. You lose the love for the industry,

but it's nice to get that love again. Right. And it's just how do you, how do you handle that, man? Cause we all go through it. It ain't all glitz and glam. A lot of the kids coming into the industry, they see the gram and they think it's all glam. And it's not. No, definitely not. There's ups and downs, right? So it's just like, you got to write it and trust me, man, there's a lot of shit that I haven't shared and there's shit going

on. That's all it is. But I mean, like it's nice to get back up. You know what I mean? It's not, it's, it's, it's hard to stay down, but it's nice to get back up. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think it's like anything in life. It's, you know, it's an emotional roller coaster, right? But, you know, I, I try to, you know, when you're, we built the roller coaster, by the way. Yeah. That's, it's out of wood. Like that old, what's the,

what's the old wood roller coaster at Cannes Wonderland? The Ghostbuster? No, the beast. Is it? Is it still there? Oh yeah, it's gotta be. It's gotta be. Somebody built it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's, yeah, it's definitely has its ups and its downs, but you know, I don't know. You got it, you got it, you got to endure the downs to be able to, you know, appreciate the ups, right? It's like the saying, you know, I don't know, not to be cheesy, but

you know, if it, you know, if it never rained a sunny day when it feels sunny, right? And I think when you're in the depths of it and you're in it, you just got to remind yourself that. Yeah. And like, you got to remind yourself that it, you're, the, the down doesn't last forever or the, the, the shitty time doesn't last forever. It's, you're gonna, you're gonna

come up from it, right? And that's what you got to hold on to you rather than, because I find you can also get stuck in the cycle, you know, when you're in, you get down and you get, you know, oh, am I doing this? Nothing's working. And then that kind of just, it's a vicious cycle that keeps like, right? So you got to break it. But I think it's, I don't know, it's like anything in life, right? You ever pinch yourself, man? I mean, I'm seeing some of the posts that you've shared

and I'm envious of job site, your office. Yeah. And you're like, it ain't filtered to death to, by the way, that, that's like mother nature filter there. And you're seeing these beautiful images in your envious because that's a homeowner is going to be living that. And that's their, that's their view that they're going to see when they wake up, go to sleep

and whatever. And you're like really envious at that point. You ever stand there, you're working and pinch yourself with a crew, pinch themselves and go, this is nice, man. Yeah, man. I like it. It's, it's crazy. I've been in West Sufer, like I said, I think 11 years now almost. And yeah, on the job site is every day, you know, we still, we'll sheet of floor and we'll stand over to boys and we look out where like pretty fucking

rad. Hey, you know, and even, even my drive to work, like going up to 99 on the highway, when you're driving to work in the morning, it's like, still never gets old, man. You look around Glacier Lake, mountains coming out in the background. It's not so bad. Not a bad idea. Everybody was working on Ontario to make their way out West. Yeah. Well, hey, I'm always hiring, but you just need to find a place to live. That's the crux. Build it. Build a place and just kind of, that's expensive.

Yeah, especially in West Sufer. There is a lot of, a lot of companies and actually, you know, more of the bigger builders, they actually have all, they've acquired staff housing because that's like they purchase houses. Because they know. Yeah. Yeah. Like right now, like that young guy just hired, he doesn't have a place to live. He might have to go back if I can't find him a place to rent. What is this government rules bullshit? No, no, it's just, no, you just can't find a place to live.

Oh, yeah. Whistler, like it's, you know, whistler's worse than Toronto. The rent is insane. Yeah. And there's, there's no supply because everyone, everyone does there is they either Airbnb or they're, They can't maintain that. Yeah. Or they, or they got so much money that, you know, basically they don't care. Their house basically, a lot of the houses in Whistler, you know, I would say probably 60, 70% are vacant for 70% of the year.

That's insane. Yeah. Yeah. $5 million homes. They'll use it. They'll use it for their Christmas vacation. Maybe they'll come out once a year. What is the wealth coming from? Like what is it? It's not mostly Canadian wealth. No, it's a lot of offshore, right? Yeah. A lot of offshore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of offshore. There is, there is a bunch of Canadian wealth. And like I said, Whistler's a bubble because Whistler's a resort destination.

Yeah. You have like Whistler and you have Aspen, right? And the who's who, you know, like, you know, Gene Simmons has a house in Whistler, like name, name, name a celebrity. They go. You have a house there. It's kind of a status thing too, right? So that's what, and because of that, there's, you know, we have a, what's called Whistler housing authority. So it's actually a segregated affordable housing for rental and buying for locals who work

there. So you basically have to prove that you work and you work in Whistler for, I think it's over a year or something like that. Okay. And then you can get on, basically it's a waiting list. And so it's all rent controlled and all, all the, sorry, all the prices of the homes are controlled also. This is a smart move. Yeah. But there's, but the crux is like, for a person like me or you, Manny, a home is an investment that we want to build and gain equity on and be able to rent out and

you can't, but you can't, you can't start it. So that's the crux though, because, because, because you can only charge, I forget with the actual percentage, but the rate can only go. So say you do an $80,000 rental on the house doesn't mean you can't charge. And when you go to sell it in two years, you don't get that money back. So the biggest issue with the Whistler housing authority is a lot of these homes don't get touched. So they

get, they get run down and you know what I mean? And for someone like me or you to buy that is kind of like, And you're having to, Yeah. Yeah. And, and like, even if you have to spend money to fix it, you don't get the money back out. So it's like, yes, it's more affordable, but then you're still not really getting your foot in the door and an investment kind of standpoint and as a home owner, if that makes sense.

So are you getting ahead of the game or is the game kind of just becoming too big and too difficult now, man? I mean, it's not just you. There's lots of tradespeople that are struggling as well too, right? Like it's just, they're trying to work earn a honest living. But obviously we're seeing that Canada is not the cheapest place to live or even set up or get started. And then you're trying to provide and you're trying to just get things

done. And it's hard, man. So it's like, you get these kids coming into the business trying. I'm sure that it was a slight wake up call for the Aussie guy to come here and realize, wait a minute, that's how much it's going to cost. Yeah, he's always going off even about like how much food costs and stuff like that. Because whistler is crazy for everything. It's even more expensive. Is even more, wait, the more important question, are tools more expensive out there?

Yeah. Well, in Whistler, I don't shop in Whistler. That's for sure. We have a lumberyard. It's crazy. I hate the Rona. Hate you, Rona. And this show is brought to you by Rona. No, it's not. That's okay. So they're just gouging. That's all. Opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. And, but I don't know. That's why, like I just said, I just came from Atlas there, machinery, but normally I order all my tools from them. Really? Yeah. Because it's just too expensive over there.

Not even expensive. It's just selection. Like we have a KMS and we have a Summit tools. I'm sure you have those out here too. KMS Summit? Summit. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But actually KMS is a BC brand, I think, actually. Okay. But they're similar, but they're just not quite the same level. You know, I run a lot of Makita and stuff and like their XGT, the new 40 volt selection out

what like I can't find anything. Really? Yeah. No, you can get your like your normal stuff, your impact, your seven and a quarter, your drills, but you know, all that, you know, like I just picked up the cordless 14 inch cutoff saw or like, you know, the 10 and a quarter. Did you get the Makita cooler oven? No, I didn't. I see. I've seen that though. I've seen it too. We have a legit or is that like fake? No, it's legit. It's legit. Yeah. It's legit. The cooler is

legit. But the oven? Well, I don't know. But the microwave oven? I know it's an actual oven. No, I don't know. It's like cooler. Easy bake? Like easy bake? Yeah. Like that. I seen a guy put a chicken in there, man, and cook it. And I'm like, is this really legit? I don't know if this is legit. I don't know. I wouldn't put it past Makita. Yeah, I wouldn't. That's the thing about it, right? So probably just they tested it with duck, I guess, or something like that. Yeah, yeah. I'm saying

the Asians. Yes, I get it. I understand. Okay. Send your letters to I don't care. I want to ask you construction bone, man. What's your biggest construction bone to pick right now? Oh, there's a lot. I was just looking for one. My biggest one. I guess my biggest, I don't know, my biggest construction bone, I think, is probably people not understanding actually what it takes to do what we do.

Good one. Right. Even, you know, builders and clients and even people in the industry, you know, when I quote projects and builder comes back, oh, like, and I go over, I'm like, well, you got 36 hold downs, I got six Simpson shear walls, I got 40,000 pounds of steel, like, you know, I mean, it's not, you know, I'm not framing a simple, simple box. You need a professional here. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, you know, here with, you know, row houses, it's like, yeah, you need a seven and

a quarter and a nail gun and away you go. Right. Like, you know, I have two 16 inch beam saws. I have three chain saws with head cutter base plates on them, mag drill, like, you know, it's, it's insane. And you need to know how to be efficient. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And the crew and everything at that. Right. Yeah. Just take it with you. I just kind of follow it. One day I'm going to start nightmares where I just the mics are everywhere. Right. Word if anybody's carrying all my

conversations. No, no, you're running like you're running a tight ship. You're running everything properly. You understand what it is. Plus you're also, you're running a business. And I love that recently we had Sam say that he's not running a dot org. He's actually a profit company. And he's not in there just for making, you know, breaking even, he's actually in it to make money. Yeah. Everybody that does a good job and they're skilled, they're in it for making money.

Yeah. Of course. So it's like, you've got a lot of overhead that's going on to produce what you need to produce based on what's been drawn. Yeah. So you've hired somebody or you've, I guess the clients start off with this architect. They have no problem spending all that money on the architect designing this design that's really challenging for you. It depends. It depends. They still like, that's what it anyways, I find a lot of people end up actually cheaping out on their architectural

sets. So then what they have that lovely rubber stamp that says as per contractor on site kind of bullseye. Exactly. You have to figure it out. Yeah. And like this last one, like I said, he's a homeowner builder, good guy. He's actually a buddy, somewhat of a buddy, but he's doing it himself on a homeowner, but he's trying to save any, you know, I got the plans and I'm like, why is everything to drywall? He's like, oh, I didn't want to get like the final construction

set because it was an extra 15 grand. And I was like, he's a buddy. So I'm like, okay. So you're missing a piece of the puzzle. Yeah. Yeah. So basically I went and I just redid all the measurements on plan using blue beam. So now you got to work harder. It's not part of your scope. Yeah. But for that project, it's okay because because he's a homeowner builder, I told them we're going to do this hourly because I'm going to basically have to do a lot of the

builder's job for you. As long as he understands that. Yeah. And he's totally chill with it. So basically he's going to end up spending that 15k. Yeah, more or less, but like, you know, whatever makes you feel better and sleep better at night, if you think you save some money, kind of, I find like a lot of clients, you know, where are they spending the money to? What do you mean? Like clients, where are they still hanging onto the red knobs and spending all the money on the

finishing crap? Yeah. I mean, is that what it is? They're trying to save as much on the front end for the back end. Yeah, pretty much, you know, everyone wants a wolf stove and they want, you know, they want a 48 inch fireplace, double glass, see through both sides. They want, you know, a 10 foot triple slider door and, you know, right, big walk-in closet. And they want all that shit to fall down because it wasn't structurally put together properly. Yeah. They don't

consider that cracks, cracks and all kinds of stuff. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I just, I just find. Yeah, like you realize that you could hold your own with an engineer, right? Oh, I do. I know. Oh, I just let everybody know. Oh, so I'm saying is that you don't have the seal. Yeah, you don't have that schooling. Yeah, you don't have their experience, but you could hold

your own. Yeah, so, but this is comes from what I touched on before, man. He is when I went, when an engineer came to site for like, you know, when I do my framing inspection, I do my, basically they come to site like three times. I do a footing inspection, see the engineer, I do my wall inspection, see an engineer, then they come back basically. Someone will come like mid frame to go over some stuff. If I'm going to, if I'm going to bury it, I'm like, hey, why

don't you come through when I'm at the second floor? Cause I'm going to bury a bunch of this steel, do do do do, but then normally it's just a framing inspection. But I know when they come, my point is coming back to before I said I had made those connections. It was the same with the engineers. I would, I would make a point they're going to come to site. I'm going to use every minute of their time. I'd have like a list of 50 questions. Hey, why did you design the tails like

this? Hey, why is the steel beam like this? Hey, hey, what's, why is this beam that and that beams that? You know, and that's where you get information when they're like, Oh, actually, you know, the engineer, so just off top of my head, it's like a three and a half by 11 and seven eighths PSL can bear bear and carry the same weight as a nine, nine and a half by five and a quarter. So they're interchangeable three and a half, 11, seven, eight, nine and a quarter. Sorry, nine and a

half by five and a quarter. Right. Like I said, you could hold your own with an engineer. So what I'm trying to get at. Yeah. And I've actually, I don't know. I've always thought like, you know, if I won the lottery, get into that world, I'd go, I will, I'd go get my engineering degree. I'd go get my architect seal. And I just, I'd draw all my own projects and build them. I still frame them. That's like, I guess, would you argue with yourself on stuff that you, oh, for sure.

And I probably tell myself I was dumb and why didn't I give myself a measurement here and leave 10 alone. He's on the hill there. No, he's just having a conversation with the architect and the engineer. But wait a minute. There's only one person up there. It's exactly up there yelling at myself. But yeah, so, uh, but it's like plenty of opportunities on a job site for any trace person to learn. Take advantage of the opportunity there, man. Yeah, 100%. You've got

these other people that are smarter than you ask them. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I don't know. I always took carpentry as like, well, okay, when I moved to Whistler, I was like on this train, I wanted to be a pro athlete, a pro skier, right? And that kind of dwindled and then carpentry came in. But then when carpentry came in, I treated it the same as like trying to become a pro athlete. Smart. Right. And it's like, the more time and the more effort you put in, you know, it's,

it's, when we say dirt biking, it's saddle time. The more time in the saddle, the better you're going to be. So, you know, like, you know, and, and I'd even be like that kind of like, I wouldn't want to take time off work because it would be a gap. Like I'd always, you know, I'd always wanted like, Oh, no, I can't miss a week because then I'm a week behind. Yeah. The thing, right?

You're missing out more opportunities. Yeah. And then, and that's the same thing on what, when I was on site, like I said, with the engineer, I asked him any questions I could my foreman, you know, they, they, they fucking hated me because I was annoying as shit. Hey, why is this like that? Hey, why is that like that? Hey, hey, hey, you know what I mean? So, because you care, they didn't really care that much, right? They just punched in the clock.

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of guys do, they just punch the clock and, you know, but, but it's hard because you come to this like, there's, there's also a balance, right? Yeah. You know, and like, I still had, I still need to find that balance. Like, and I think, I don't know, with me, I, I get hyper focused. So like, I don't know. I'll be in like the misses. We'll, we'll know. Like, I'm in work mode for like three months, like three months. Yeah. Like three months. Like every night I go.

Because of the project. Yeah. Yeah. You're consumed by it. Yeah. You're trying to problem solve stuff that's been built or going to be built. Yeah. And then kind of, I don't know if you've noticed, but kind of once like Christmas hits, we always try to kind of like Christmas, January, we're kind of try to be closed in and then we back frame and I'll have the boys go and do some siding and slab prep and all that. And then that's kind of when I step back, I take a breather, you know,

engineering is past, muni inspection, all my framing inspections passed. So now it's just, you know, just lasers and backframing, easy stuff, right? Window prep, put it in windows, like that's all, you know, cake. Yeah. From a mental standpoint, like, as long as you put the RO there in the right place and it's the right size and the window goes in, right? So at that point, you can kind of just how are the inspectors out West? It's good. So in Wedgewoods, that one

I'm building, it's actually a different muni than Whistler. So there's SLRD, which is Squamish, Lilalette Regional District. And then there's the Whistler RMO resort municipality of Whistler. So that it's really 15 minutes away, but it's in a different muni. Okay. The SLRD deal with a lot more of like rule and they're like pretty spread out. So they're okay to deal with, they're pretty good. The Whistler muni is like a pain in the butt. Are they? Oh,

yeah. And it's hard like even a particular reason. It's more just they're understaffed, like I've probably here, it's you know, for a permit, you're talking six to nine months for a permit. It's insane. If it's drawn, submit it correctly. Yeah, like six months of it, there's no revisions. Wow. Right. But there's always room. I've never, I've almost never had a project come back without having to go through muni once or twice. So how long can it get a year?

Yeah, over a year. Wow. There's been one I bid a year and a half ago. How are you looking at that? How are you juggling that? What's the commodity? Everything's a commodity these days. So all of a sudden you got a price, but your price is good for what? Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. My price is like contingent on a two month period when I give it. And more so how I kind of do it. The builders have come to me before permit and they want a quote.

So I basically give them a rough, a rough quote to get them kind of to make their budget and their timeline. And then they submit to permit. And then I come back and we revise everything. And you know, I'm within within 20, 20% of what I first said. But you know, some things do change. It's like this one I'm doing. There was like, almost there's a bunch of steel added in the roof. Now there's a bunch of cantilevered steel with one inch thermal break plates and like, you know what I

mean? So it's like, well, your structure changed, the price is going to change. Let me do a little history and construction here. BC stuff. I don't even know if you know this stuff, but maybe I do. Abbotsford. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So the biggest home in BC. Any idea? It is a 2944458th Avenue in Abbotsford. That kind of makes sense. There's a lot of there's a lot of like farm farm designations.

So they're on huge lands and they'll build like crazy 47,000 square foot cathedral like front entrance to a grand dining room, spacious conservatory and tunnel that leads to the serpentine pool. And it's basically a farmhouse. Yeah. It's wild. There's a there's a few of those out that way because it's big farmland and open space and and beautiful scenery. Yeah. Yeah. Who owns the Canada's most expensive house currently right now? Actually, this is back in no, no, no, this is now.

Yeah. I don't know. Chip Wilson founder of Lulu Lulu LEM man. Oh, yeah. The house is located on the famous Golden Mile and is the most expensive home in Canada. It was designed by the well known architect Russell Hollingsworth and built in 08 who has the biggest house in Canada. Peter Grant, multimillionaire owner of the Grant Forest Products Corporation. You get a lot of wood

from them. Yeah. began work on his dream home way back in 2005. He made it his forge. He made his fortune in wood after setting up his company in 1980 and soon became North America's third largest supplier of orient orient his strand board who owns the most properties in Canada, which one entity owns the most properties in Canada. It's got to be a who's that it's got to be a corporate. I want to say Omni group, but no, they're the lovely government of Canada. Oh, really? Yeah. They

own 90% of this land on this country. Oh, that makes sense. Right. So we have a lot of land. Yeah. And there's not a lot of homes on the land, but they own 90% of it. Makes sense. Makes sense. So there you go. Little history and construction, man. I'm so glad that you're here, man. Seriously. Yeah. Yeah. I've been itching to get you on the show forever. Yeah, we've been talking for a long time. I don't I'm trying to remember. I don't know when you first reached out to me or whatever,

but it's been years. Yeah, four years at least for sure. And I only respect what like, you do everything right. You fucked up. Everybody fucks up. It's just part of it, right? But you do everything right. And speaking back to the valleys and hills and well, that kind of crap is that you go through bad, you come through good. That's all it is, man. Exactly. Yeah. What's your take on the future construction? Well, you ever think about it? You ever ponder it? To be honest, no, not really.

You don't think about it? No, I focus on psych fucked. You can't look at that. It's like next week's big enough. It's like as long as I got four days figured out and I feel like I'm not burning to the ground. So I don't know as long as I kind of know what's happening next week, that's about as far as I kind of get how many guys on the crew right now. There's me plus five. So six of us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was only that in the winter is just me me and one

other one to tighten it. I don't know why that Mike's been acting up lately. I don't know what happened. Who touched that mic? It was a me when I was doing zoom calls. Probably. Yeah. Sorry, what we're seeing? The crew. Oh, yeah, the crew. Yeah, up until the winter is like basically me and Marco. That was it. Yeah, just me and Marco. And that was that was pretty much it. And then I don't know. I'm like a I'm a pretty big believer in in, I don't know, natural selection

or fate. So I've always, you know, thought about, oh, I want to get bigger. But it's like, well, if the guys come, then I will. And four guys kind of messaged me all at once. I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that second project kind of lined up with the other one. And I was like, okay, let's do it. Do you need to get bigger? No, you don't need it. No, I don't need to get bigger. You got two really good jobs going on right now projects. And then obviously you're going to

have other projects coming along as well too. Yeah, I think where we're at, I'm like super happy. And, and, you know, I think it's a good sized crew. And we can kind of do the amount of work I wanted to do in a year. And, you know, we can actually get stuff done. Before is just mean one. It's, it's, it's just me one guy. So like, you know, it takes us twice as long almost, right? I sometimes see the downfall specifically of framers. They get too big too fast.

And they have too many crews going on at the same time. And then the work suffers. Yeah, of course. It's almost the same recipe over and over for that. Right. So I guess that you guys are thinking in your back head, do I really want to do that? Do I want to go there? But it doesn't look like the economy is going to change that much out West.

No, I don't think so. And, and like I said, I kind of waiting for it naturally, like I'm kind of doing two at once right now, but they're, they're staggered and like stages and they're going to be waiting because the one in wedges is actually a SIPP panel construction house. So we're not even doing site walls. So it's, so it's a lot easier for us frame and I'm just waiting for the, I'm going to, I'm going to do all the SIPP installation. Yeah. For that. Yeah. There's some of that stuff

going on here. Yes. SIPP's I've done SIPP. So I built for two years, I built bone structures. Did you like it? I hated it. Thank you very much. I'd say the same thing. I've never touched it. I looked at it on paper and I've checked it out. There's faults. Huge faults. Yeah. Huge faults. So when I start seeing huge faults, I'm like, I don't know if this is a good idea. Yeah. It's, it's super expensive. So for the structure, I think you're going to look at almost 60% more

expensive. That much? Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. Wow. Yeah. Well, I think of the price of steel, it's gone all up now. It's insane now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they had, we had big issues because we did them in Whistler and then because there's steel structures, then the Muni came back and they were like, Oh no, like we actually needed to be designed under commercial. It can't be designed under part nine because there's steel. So then we had to go back and then because they're commercial,

we actually, we ripped a bunch of drywall out of the ceilings. We had to put gusset plates on all these metal joists and like, it was insane. What a nightmare. Yeah. And then they all, all the, all the bone structures, they need to be sprinkled. So that's an added cost too, right? Why do they need to be sprinkled? It's because it's commercial. Oh, so then the moment, okay. So they, right? It's not, it's not technically, it's not in part nine residential

anymore. So as soon as you get into commercial structure, they want to. Aren't you guys, isn't BC implementing sprinklers and residential now? They're trying to? Yeah. I think it depends on the zone and the, so like Wedgewood's like I'm talking about in the SLRD. Okay. It's in a forest fire zone. So every single house there has to be sprinkled and only 32% of your exterior cladding material can be combustible. So pretty much everything there, everyone does like a

hemlock or a cedar soft fit, mostly hemlock. And then basically it's all hardy standing seam or I must have said, or it looks the homeowners, right? Cause that probably upsets the homeowners because they really want that wood on the exterior. Yeah, some of them, but like it's kind of, if you're building in Wedgewood's, it's in the covenant. You kind of know, like it's kind of,

you know what I mean? And there's ways around it now. And to be honest, like as much as I'm a carpenter and I like working with wood, like on one of the last houses, it was the first time I actually used inch and an eighth cone face hardy for a fascia board. You ever use that? No. It's inch and an eighth fascia board. thick? Yeah. Inch and an eighth hardy. And it's, it looks like cone face spruce. So it's got the, you know, like the looks exactly like it looks good. Oh, I'll do

it again. And it sucks to work with. How do you cut? You cut it on a chop saw? Really? Yeah. Hardy blade chop saw? Airborne? Yeah. It's still silica. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's all it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's terrible to cut. How are you doing miters or how do you doing corners on that? Well, that one, the builder wanted me to miter the corners. They don't suggest mitering the corners. They open up. So that figure. Yeah. So they kind of, you kind of avoid,

you're not going to get the manufacturing warranty, but that's been two years. And what I did was basically, we, we cocked and left a little gap and I put trim head screws and then filled over them on every miter. Yeah. So like it's been two years, it still looks the same as day one. No, it still looks the same as day one. And like that, that fascia will never cut. Like,

it'll be like, it'll never warp. Yeah. Yeah. It'll never rot at all. Anything. Yeah. And that's the same as, you know, your standing seam siding, you know, it's good for how many years, right? You know, all the lux, I don't know if you ever dealt with like all the lux metal siding. No, I've seen it. I haven't dealt with it though, but a lot of clients are getting into it. Now, but there's wait, it's almost like way too many options these days. No, yeah, for sure.

Way too many options, man, but nobody wants to just build a brick house anymore. What's a brick house? We don't do those. I don't even know. We don't do brick houses. If they were to rewrite the three little pigs story, man, like what kind of houses would they be building at that point? Yeah, I don't know. It'd be your track home that blows down. It would be, I don't know. Yeah. Puff and a puff, man. That's it. The bone went down,

but then all right, that's different. Yeah. Yeah, but anyways, yeah, the bone structures back to that. Yeah, I don't know. I'd say, you know what? The bone structure to me is a beautiful marketing exercise and construction. It's, that's what I always said when we were building them. I said, these guys are, these guys, you know what these guys are good at? Marketing. They're not good at,

you know, there's a lot of companies in construction. They spend more money and more effort in marketing than actually like fixing and making their structure and their assembly better. They would have, they would have been better off if they would have approached people like you here, test it please. Are you forming your footings the same way your grandpa did? It might be time to have a look at fast foot by fat form. Fast foot is a high density polyethylene

fabric that you simply staple to two by fours to form any size footing. A 100 foot roll of fast foot weighs 14 pounds and will form the same amount of concrete as 1500 pounds of lumber. That's a lot of weight off your back and a lot of lumber not in the landfill. Find them at www.fab-form.com and follow them on IG at fabformindustries. Yeah, well, I don't know if anyone followed me back then, but, but I mean, they should have been searching. I got emails from bone that I wasn't allowed to post

stuff. Are you serious? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were asked, I like they're not telling you. Yeah, they were telling me the builder, and then well, they would tell the builder and the builder would come talk to me because at this time I wasn't my own entity. Listen, from there, the next post with me with a Jerry can walking towards the job site and just going, yeah, you guys started the fire. I'm going to continue it. Yeah, that's what happened. Seriously? Yeah, I just created

there, but it's because it's not the way to handle it. No, how about make the product better? Yeah, yeah. And like, yeah, we had, we, me and my other foreman at the time, butted heads with these guys because we're, we were because you guys were, we're framers and we like what we do and we're into it and we're like, yo, you know what I mean? They're like, I don't know. It was the communication with the company was terrible, to be honest. Listen, not everybody kisses ass on

the gram, right? Yeah. So you can't do that all the time. Yeah. And, and it's like, well, this is real flaws in your design and your assembly and your structure and why not take it back to the team and rework it and come back. We had, we had a whole structure. So I don't know if you've ever seen it all the posts, they're like a four by four almost they look like almost like an HSS. Okay. But they're more like, I don't know if anyone ever played with McKenna or Kinects.

So it's like, basically, you'll have a bunch of sections of posts, and then they're all drilled every two inches with the three sixteenths hole, two holes up the whole post. So it's basically like, and then part of the post has a male end and then part of the post has a female end. So you basically can make different post heights, make different configurations by putting them together and then they get tech screws, the healthy tech screws. So everything's basically

just healthy tech screwed together. Wow. But you'd have, especially in Whistler, and this is, you know, there's a time and a place and like they didn't have Whistler figured out either because we have snow loads, we have, we have seismic, right. And so, you know, they started having to use these like different heavy gauge posts, but they couldn't drill them. So they started laser cutting them. But then none of, but because the laser, I guess hardened the hole, all the healthy tech

screws would snap on this one project. So I had buddy, I don't know, I think it was over 60,000 holes he had to re drill. It was insane. That's just stupid. Yeah. And then that's when we talked, I did bone and they had to two guys come out and drill holes for us also. Also, they joined the whole crew. Yeah. And just to fix all the holes. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. There's a little bit of a design fraud. Am I gonna, I don't care if I get emails from bone or whatever.

Oh, I hope you do. Probably I invite him on the show. Yeah, let's do it. Invite me back. I go head to head. Invite everybody on the show. Why you hate my guts? All right, come on the show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, but like, like I said, you know, time, I think there's a time and place. I'm not saying, you know, there's not a time and place for it. I think they're kind of, I don't think the custom market, I think they should simplify it. They should make it cheaper.

And they should, you know, it would be a good, good option for places that are more remote, because you basically, they send you everything and an impact and you basically put it together. Yeah. Right. So there's, you know, time and place, or if they could get it down more cost effective and build more row homes with it, where everything's the same and then it's mass produced,

because if they could produce the same structure multiple times, it becomes cheaper. No. At that point, you're getting into modular building, which I don't think they can compete with modular and panels and things like that. They won't be able to compete against it. I don't think they could get their price back. Like when I'm starting to see, and there's stuff that I'm working on and I'm taking a look at, like modular wise, and I'm like, going, this is insane, where this

is coming from. Then you start talking numbers with them. Yeah. And you're going, this is really insane. Yeah. Like, so it's like, it's going to be challenging for you as well too, because I'm hearing just framing crews can't compete with the numbers that are associated with this. So if you don't get on that train and get working with these new products, you're going to get priced out.

Yeah. I think, and like the goal is actually, man, you know, I, because everything, yeah, and this is the debate and framing is offsite built panel construction, right? Right. It's coming. It's here already. It's coming. But we've always done that. Yeah. I do it on site. It's true. There's no, like, like the two years ago when I framed that atrium house, like, I framed every single wall and stacked it all. And then we, I, I, I flew them in in one day

with a boom. Right. So we're doing prefab just on site. And this is, you know, eventually the goal, like I said, it's hard because there's no space in Whistler. But ideally, I'd like to get a piece of land and have a huge shop with living quarters above it for staff. And then we could, we'd be, I would like to be in the middle of, you know, the high end tag or passive, BC passive house panels, because they're super expensive. And like, you know, I'd like to be more of like,

you're kind of same site framed, but we can get it together quicker. Because what I could do is, you know, say we have a month, maybe I can't, maybe I don't necessarily pre build everything, but I can pre cut everything and label everything. So then we show up to site and the walls are just crack a bundle and you just, you have a nailer and you go right. You think it's possible to modally built a workshop that can just be planted on a certain area and then you work and live from

there? Yeah, for sure. If you had the space, but that's like more if you're building it like in Wister, the sites are so tight that like, you know, like people in Wister think it's crazy to have a 20 foot secan as a tool trailer because like most places you can't fit it. Like on the last Brio job that went up the cliff, like I basically had to four by four crib over the ditch and cross my fingers that the muni didn't didn't hate me for it. Right. They never, they never made

me move it. So like, so yeah, for sure. I think, but that's more, I think that would be more in farmland or rural areas and stuff like that. But you're trying to problem solve. Yeah, you're trying to figure out how to be more efficient. You're looking at your business. You're just trying to, you're just trying. That's what it is. Right. So and then the high end custom market, like it's your module, like you're saying, like guys are having like in the high end custom market,

I'm still way more cost effective than any high end panel company. It's for you. It's more the timeline that people care about. Like I said, coming back to the permit issue, people are waiting eight months to get permits. Well, the permit finally comes through in September. Well, they put a foundation and they can get panels there and they can have a roof on by December. Right. So that's like one of the builders. That's the whole reason he did it. They built a house on

spec and you know, I was asking him, you know, he's a good friend of mine. He's a builder. I was just as curious about pricing. He's like, no, like, if I had the time, I wouldn't do it. It's way more expensive than site. Plus you already, I guess, technically with the city, you got time anyway. Yeah, you just got to schedule as all of it. Yeah. And I think the biggest, what I see is like I said, the biggest, the biggest bonus that everyone seems to love about the

prefab is just timeline builders and clients. They love seeing a foundation and then they love seeing the roof on the house in like four weeks. Right. It's like, we'll get inside fast. Yeah. Yeah. So like, so that's right. If I could make a hybrid that we could compete with the timeline and still be cost effective because that would work. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's kind of like a hybrid and then, you know, so how do we make the monkeys at the city hall speed up these permits?

I don't know. They need to, I don't know. I heard that because you used to right now, you can go into the office and like, Hey, where's my permit? Or like, you know, actually face to face. I apparently they're changing it so you're not allowed to go in anymore. So a public building. Yeah. Is not allowing the public to enter. Yeah, it's great. It's crazy. You have to do everything by email. So they don't have to confront you and speak to you. Right. Yeah, exactly. Everyone just

stand outside. I see you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, why is that? That's not being helpful. That's not going to speed up the process, man. No, it's going to slow it down. But I think it's, I don't know. And then the argument is like, Oh, we don't have enough. We're understaffed. We're understaffed. Yeah. But this is what I've talked to builders about before too. And it's like, Well, I think, I think all plan checking should just be third party. I agree. Right. There

should be an engineering. Yeah. Yeah. And then the, the basically the actual plan checking is, is, you know, whatever you say you need to be a qualified and approved by the government to be plan checkers or however you are. We're not doing that already, Tim. Yeah. The amount of engineering, no, I mean, in just scope and the amount of engineering that's attached to any structure these days. Yeah. Are we not already doing that? Yeah, for sure. The engineering,

like the muni doesn't care about that. Well, where I'm from, it's because everything's so heavily engineered. They don't look at the structure. They don't like there's never any markups. It's all, like I said, it's kind of probably like Toronto, but it's there's a lot of, there's a lot of heights, like there's always applying for height variances or setback moves, or it's all this kind of stuff, right? Or like you have, you know, and with us, we're, David,

a B whistler adopted the step code. I think it was two years ago. Okay. So it's a bunch of that, right? To where it's like, oh, you're, you need your intermittent, like the project I'm working on right now. We actually don't have a permit. Hopefully it's where it's pound the word for pound on Instagram. But hopefully it's supposed to come through. It's just like a anyways. I know, but that's, listen, I've done that too, man. But we're technically, you know, the developer builder is

pushing us like, Hey, you know what, I'll start if you want, we'll put forms on the ground. If they shut us down, we'll shut us down. Yeah, because it is going to be, it's like, we're just going through nuances. They're just going back and forth about the energy modeling of the house. That's what I was getting at. So it's like, Oh, your isolation, your windows, like, you know, it's not going to change. Like they've approved. Yeah, the way it's going to go up. Here's the shell. Yeah,

exactly. Are you guys, I know that in Ontario here, we've got all this, you know, the lovely, we can build anywhere now backyards and we got built on top of top of buildings, whatever. Vancouver is BC going that way as well too. You guys going ADUs and things like that. Is that an option? Yeah, I think well, I can only really mostly speak with there's its own animal, Vancouver, like Vancouver has its own fucking billing code. So like, who knows what's going on in Vancouver,

but Wow, they do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like in every like, every house in Vancouver, you need a building envelope consultant. Really? Yeah, you can't just tie back and blue skin through windows anymore. You have to have an envelope consultant sign up. So this comes back to like the muni taking even less responsibility. Right? Well, then, okay, listen, I'll give you the consultant. Yeah, but you're speeding up my process. Yeah. It's not I give you the consultant

and you just keep on. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, man, you got to give and take at that point. Yeah. Yeah. How much is a building consultant these days? I don't even know. I'm curious, it's got to be four figures. Yeah, probably a few thousand maybe. Yeah, yeah, for sure. You everything just assigned Oh, for now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no envelope consultant. Yeah. No, but then there are also every line item now is increasing because now you're framing your window everybody everybody.

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. You guys are yeah, you guys are all well first of all mother nature seismic you got all kinds of you know, lovely things going on out west. But sorry back to your point. Like the ad us and stuff I think in Vancouver, they're starting to go that way because Vancouver is almost even tighter than Toronto. Yeah, I would say well, it's just Toronto you do, you know, you can sprawl like I grew up in Aurora here and now it's almost part

of the city. Do you know what I mean? Like when I grew up there is like white picket fence suburbia and people at farms. It's insane how crazy things are going on now. But in Vancouver, you know, the oceans there and the mountains are behind you. So it's you can only there's only so much building space actually. Yeah, so it's it's actually even a bit tighter. Let's start building on the mountains. Yeah, it'll start to look like Canada's Rio de Janeiro kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah. The fall is starting to do on Whistler because we're out of lots. There's been there's I know a few lots that were deemed basically unbuildable by the muni and people have bought them and hired engineers and based on what premise on why you can't build like the basically geotech I think the cliff like really it's it there. They're the two I know of are basically like on outcroppings and cliffs and they basically the muni didn't think you'd be able to build there. I understand if

your envelopes really thick, you can get approval to build anywhere. Yeah, not your building envelope I'm talking about. What do you mean? Your envelope is very thick. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can pretty much build anywhere. Yeah, yeah. And that's what they've done. He spent two years with engineers and geotechs the one guy I know of. Just through the construction grapevine, right?

I've heard. Wow. Yeah, he spent two years and he's finally gonna build on it. But it's been two years with geotechs and engineers kind of basically showing that they can build it and in your opinion, should you build? Why not? Structure. Structure works mother nature is one way or not mother nature earth can anchor it. Yeah, like as long as engineers are smart, man, like if an engineer approves it, like, you know, they're not going to approve, you know, an engineer stamps

something, that's their livelihood on the line. Normally, engineers aren't going to stamp something, you know, and that's why people, oh, it's over billed. It's like, well, it's the guy's life on the line. You know, that's a question that I never got a chance to ask an engineer. If somebody's on the job site one day to ask, does the stamp, if they retired, does that stamp still carry till

day they die? I'm not sure about that, actually. I know that the only thing I know about, because you basically, a lot of our engineers become like, basically the, oh, I forget in the term, basically the principal sign off for the whole project, is normally the engineer on record. Generally speaking, yeah. Yeah. So from what I understand is basically until that is until that builds a certain age old, they basically are accountable up to a certain amount of dollars for

that. So they have to have like, so you can't just like. So your insurance or whatever. Yeah. In the event something happens, but there's actually a timeline. So it's not indefinite. All of a sudden, it doesn't matter how long this dwelling lasts. No, yeah, yeah. The engineer's still not attached to it based on that's what I'm trying to figure. So I guess, I guess the question

is once they, there's a time limit. So even if they retire, and then that's it, something happens to structures, I'm sure if you know, say we did have a seismic event and something happened and you know, God kind of yeah. So like, but you know, yeah, they're these are all things that you'll learn when you become an engineer. Yeah, exactly. Talk to yourself on the hill. Yeah. Yeah. Totally do it, man. I could totally see you being that engineer architect out there, man.

Yeah, for sure. At least you'll get a lot of respect. Yeah. From a lot of trades people. Yeah. Yeah. I've always said engineers and architects should spend some time on site. Everyone says that except for the engineers and architects. Well, one of the best engineers I've worked with used to frame. It's good for him. And he'll send me pictures. He's like, Hey, how do you want to build this like this? Or do you want to install it like this? So you can hear cheat notes. Yeah.

So then he's like, Oh, I can spec it like this, or I can spec it like that. How would you want to install this? Or how do you want to build this nice of him? Yeah. Yeah. Actually communicating with the people that are not he's yeah. And he's really good. And that's where again, it's like, it's hard. I'm not the builder, but I know he's more expensive than other engineers, but he makes my life easier. So is it really more expensive? Yeah. And the grand scheme.

It's not. It's not. Don't look at a line. Look at the total. Yeah. But I think what people get fixated on. Yeah. Is that line item? Oh, $40,000 for plans are like, you know what I mean, right? Where it's like, but we save $50,000 on framing side or whatever, right? But unless I'm truly billing every hour to that and they can at the end put that as like, you know, which it doesn't really happen. It kind of like, you know, my two or three hours on plan work a night kind of just

get lost in it. So they still, you know, they kind of still think they've saved that money, but it's it's more just lost in actual framing cost, if that makes sense. It does. You got you got room for improvement in your business? Always. What do you mean? I'm just asking. Yeah. Not everybody figures it out. I don't I've yet to meet anybody who figures it out. Yeah. So there's always room for improvement. Always room for improvement. So you get a lot of young guys coming into the

business thinking, nah, I got this figured out. Come over here. Yeah. Who are these people? I want to talk to them because, but no, man. And even from a business point, definitely not, definitely not from a business point, but even from a carpentry point, like that's how I joke with the boys. It's like, we always do stuff different. Every single bill I'm changing it. Because every single bill is custom. Yeah, but it's also I learned something on the last one.

And you're improving it. Yeah, you're working off of it. Yeah. It's like, I don't know. I've never been like, oh, this is how we do it. So we're going to stay doing it. That way. It's always, I'm always more as soon as I in my head, if we're doing something and as soon as I had, I'm like, this kind of fucking sucks. I change it next time. It might suck more next time, but I still change it to try to find a better way. Do you find a better way? Yeah, a lot of times we do. Yeah. You know,

and then you're more efficient. Yeah. Then it goes back to your business. You're more profitable. Yeah. But sometimes you don't. But you know, that's again, like coming back to the roller coaster. It's the same thing. You're going to have gains and losses. You're going to have ups and downs. Like, you know, you're going to win some, you're going to lose some. Yeah, exactly. So it is, man. Yeah. Everybody make heat on the crew? No. Why? Is there a yellow guy there?

Two of them are yellow. Two yellow guys there. I know. Wow. I didn't think that would happen. But I know. And the one guy, Marco, actually, like, because he started. So Marco is actually a good buddy of mine. We lived together in Whistler for a long time. We were roommates coming up. And he was actually a hotel manager before framing. Yeah. Well, before the pandemic. Oh, the pandemic hit and they laid him off. And for two years, I was trying to tell him to come

frame with me. Right. I was like, you know, there's good money in construction. I know he was same type of dude. He liked being outside. He's into his truck. He's always throwing wrenches on his truck and stuff like that. And I was like, you know, there's, there's, what are you doing? Like, you're a manager at the hotel, you're capped. What do you make? I'll start you as a laborer on that. Let's go. You know what I mean? Like, and he was kind of humming and hawing and then the

pandemic hit and it's like, I was like, you want to do it now? He's like, okay. And then he went. Yeah. But it's also hard because, you know, he's a bit older and it's, it's, you know, he was kind of thought that was, he was going to be in hospitality management as his career. But so he had a tough time for the first, you know, five months, I spend a lot of time with him and teaching. But you know, it's when, when you start and you're not good, good at something, it's really

frustrating. It's really frustrating. And walking analogy, man, you don't give up because you're a baby and you don't want to walk, you fall, you keep on getting going, right? Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of, you know, he's the kind of dude who has that mentality. So he's a, he's a, he's a very good framer right now. Yeah. Well, he's learning. Like he's only been doing it since, you know, like for three years, right? But I don't know. I'd say I, I, I he's got potential. Oh yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, you, you use everyone to their abilities, right? And he's coming from, coming from hospitality and management and all that. Like he's very good. Like he does all my lists, he does all my organizing, he does my tool inventory. He's got some assets, right? You know what I mean? He does all my, you know, hey, Marco, make me a list for the takeoffs, make me, you know,

make me a material list, you know, all that kind of stuff. Hey, he kind of, he kind of, you know, I'll go to him for, if I'm off site, he kind of has the day to day task for everyone. He's good at managing, right? He might not be the best framer yet, but so that's what I'm saying. He came from management. Well, let's use his management skills, right? Works is smart. Yeah.

That's business, man. Yeah. And I guess too, I'm learning. That's what I've, I guess I've talked to a few other guys about this too, but it's, you got, you can't expect everyone to be you. And like, that's what I struggled with for my first couple of years. It's like, you actually thought that you could find more use? Yeah. I like, you know, they're grazing up on the hill. Yeah, that's, that was, I don't know. I took, and I was like, yeah, it's not you, Tim, doing it.

So he's going to take twice as long or it's going to be a bit out or like, you know, Is that hard? Is that hard for you to really, to finally realize that, to see that? Yeah. I still struggle with it every day because like, But you're seeing, especially if I'm having a bad day, right? Yeah. And it's like, I look over and like, well, fuck, you're taking him two fucking hours. I would have had that done in 15 minutes.

It's fucking gold. We see, I mean, we see a lot of that. Like, I see a lot of it in younger guys. They see the, I don't understand why you don't get it. I don't understand why you don't get it. I got it. I would have gotten it. I would have done it. We would have moved on. And then you're like, find a better way to teach. Yeah. That's just basically at that point, right? Yeah. And just

understand that you can be a teacher. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I do try to, like my whole, even though, you know, a lot of my stuff's fixed price and I still take a lot of time to teach, right? Because I don't know, in my mind, it's the same as, I don't know, it's the same as I was talking about the engineers and the networking before. It's paying now for your future. Yeah. And that's the goal.

And yeah, it's a gamble because like you've talked about with guys on here, people leave and people are transient, you know, but like, you don't, if you don't invest and don't try, you'll never get the outcome, right? And you can't be negative because you taught somebody and they moved on and done something else. Of course not. And there's no reason for why are you going to consume your

thoughts that way. Yeah. And, and I was like, when I first started my right hand guy, who I had with me, he ended up going on his own and starting a little furniture company and moving to the island. That's great. You know what I mean? And, and I, and that's fine. Like, and, and I'm going to try with Marco and other guys in the company that like, if they don't want to go on their own, all that's, you know, you're talking about growth, well, I'll grow the company to be able to

accommodate their growth. Right? Yeah. You know what I mean? Because people need to grow. And they need to feel like they're, they're progressing and, and their work and in life. And, and yeah, so if Marco, like we're just using Marco as an example, if he gets to a point where I feel he can run three guys, then yeah, let's take on another project, right? If he's comfortable with that,

or, you know, and that, that's when it'll be time to do it. But then the guys also are looking up to you to see that there's that opportunity there, that you're understanding the growth aspect of it. Yeah, of course. It's not just like, like you said it in the beginning there, it's just, you're not just punching the clock, man. No, yeah. And like, I specifically on this second build, we just started with the mono pouring, we can talk about that in a second. But

Marco and Cam, I kind of like, I printed out a nice layout. I did all my own measurements in red on blue beam, like basically, here's a page, every number you need on it, laid out a watch. And I was there and I helped and like, Oh, no, no. But like, you know, they basically for that whole footing, they kind of laid everything out. I just, I was just watching.

So the machine was working. The machine was working. And it's kind of, it's, I don't know, it's, it was the first time I felt the machine working, which, which is without me kind of, you know, turning the gears, pushing the clutch in your business. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that was, yeah, this has been kind of the first time I've kind of, you know, even like yesterday and say Friday, today's Friday. Yeah. Yesterday and today, it's like, you know,

the boys are working without me. That's the first time I ever had them work on site without me, especially with that many guys. Like I've left Marco kind of with a day kind of, but there's six guys on site without me right now, which is, I'm just trying not to think about it. They need you to, but they don't need you. Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, it's like, but like, I'm a phone call or a FaceTime away or a text away, you know, like Marco was texting me when I

was on the plane and I had Wi-Fi and they go, yeah, it's a four foot footing. Do that as a PF2 pad. Yep. That needs two horizontal bars. Yeah, you're right. Cool. Thumbs up. See, perfect. Yeah. So that poor went well. We haven't poured that one yet. Oh, yeah. That's the one without the permit we're waiting. Oh, you're still waiting on that one. Yeah. Yeah. So the mono pour,

we started just after the other one in Wedgewoods. We basically got the foundation done and the floor on the floor framing to brace for backfill because there's like, it's 12 foot unsupported concrete walls. So I'll always, if we're doing that for backfill, I'll always either temporary brace the walls or I'll put the floor system on before we backfill. Man, have you, you ain't doing

easy shit out there, man. Like you're doing challenging shit. Yeah. Like you got, you got engineers out this way that are scratching their head going, oh, the fuck did you pull that shit off? Right? Yeah. Like, have you come across stuff that you're just a little nervous about? Because it doesn't seem like you're nervous about it. I'm nervous every single project. Every single project. But like fast foot by fat form protects your forming lumber from the concrete.

So stripping it, it's a breeze and can be reused over and over. You can tie it into your wall and slab membranes to prevent moisture from wicking into the home through your footing with the crazy prices of lumber lately. It's time to start looking at doing things differently. Find them at www fab hyphenated form.com and follow them on IG fab form industries. But I don't know the more you're in it, the more you realize that if you can use what you know to figure out what you don't

know. Right? So you're not going to know everything, but you can know enough to figure it out. And I got the confidence and I kind of hit a point where I knew that. So it's like as much as it's still intimidating. It's like I have as good a shot in my head, you know, maybe it's maybe I'm out to launch. But in my head, it's like, I have as good a shot of figuring this out as pretty much anyone.

Because from the carpenters I talked to, you know what I mean? True. Right? So it's like, if he can do it, I can do it. And like, that just comes back. That's kind of my mentality in the trades. And I always worked on my own trucks and stuff. And like, maybe my Mrs was like, you know, like, how did you know how to rebuild a whole engine and a head gasket? I was like, well, I'm in construction. And I know

the dude at the mechanic shop is no more proficient than me at figuring shit out. So it's just going to take me twice as long. I'll figure it out. But I'll figure it out. But that's just the mindset that you kind of, you know, is a good trade person, I would say, right? But yeah, they definitely intimidate me and, you know, and that's why they're challenging jobs. Yeah. And for me, this last one,

I don't know, even some might say it's depending challenging. But like this, the first one I did and kind of started first there, where we're waiting for backfill, it's pretty simple to me. Like there's steel and there's columns and there's 140 degree walls and like, but to me, that's like, that's a box. There's like only two elevations, a couple out of square corners, a little bit of steel. Like that's a breeze, right?

One day I'll get out there and I want to sit there. I just want to watch and just check it out, man. I'll be here. Come out, we'll go through. I know like all the built, we can, you can, we'll go through some nice homes, you can see different stages. You want to see like, it's a pretty smooth. I'm impressed with the way builders are doing things out west, man.

Yeah. Yeah. And like Whistler's night. And that's, that's what I said, we're blessed to be able to build in that place with people who have the money they do and want to build what they want to build. There's a lot of high end architecture and it's, it's fun to build, right? And especially on the projects with bigger budgets because it's, you know, and now a lot of my projects, they still have budgets, right? Like it's still, you know, still always over budget. Is it mostly Canadian

architects? Yeah. They're mostly Canadian. Yeah. Which is refreshing to see that. Yeah. Stark architecture. I don't know if you've heard of them. They're big out west. Fritz, they're another big one. Those are kind of the two, two big ones. There's a company out of Whistler, NAR. They're called G-N-A-R. Of course. Why would it be spelled any other way? Yeah. But they kind of do full design architecture. They're pretty good too. Yeah.

Yeah. But who's the other one? Anyways, a lot of high end world-renowned architects that build houses in Whistler. Man, what are you doing for your downtime? Are you still skiing or what's the story, man? I actually don't ski too much anymore because I've had, I don't know, my body's broken. I had two, three knee surgeries. Yeah. But is that from the

skier or from the motor cross? That's from skiing. Like I said, when I came, then I was kind of going way back to when we were talking at the beginning is I wanted to be a professional skier. But that kind of, the body started deteriorating pretty quick after a few surgeries and, you know, and that's kind of when I realized that, oh, maybe I should do carpentry as an occupation and skiing should be a recreation. That's what my dad always said. My dad always told me skiing was a

recreation on an occupation. But for some people it is. But I mean, it's hard to, three surgeries you had? Yeah, that's just on my knees. Just on the knees. Shoulder surgery, elbow surgery, collar bone. After an incident or? Okay, that's why. Shattered my kneecap, torn my LCL, torn my LCL, torn my MCL, broke my collarbone in three places. Is Marko putting a grocery list for that together or what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so you thought you'd take it easy by doing steel

beams and cantilever and building into rocks and BC. That's it. That's a cakewalk. It's a box of Kleenex at that point. Yeah. But I think that comes into why I enjoy forming and framing is because it's kind of, I don't know, call me adrenaline junkie, I guess, but it kind of suits that nature and, you know, why I like walking wall plates. I like walking beams, you know, it's and,

you know, yeah, for sure, you got to be safe 100%. You got to be safe. But like, I have this argument with people that like, it still takes a skilled tradesperson. So like, if you make it so that, you know, you don't, like, I don't know, people comment on my stuff when I'm out on a beam without a rope, but like, just shut up. But it's like, I'll drop an 80 foot cliff on my snowmobile. And that's for fun.

So like, I don't mind walking a beam at work, because it's kind of fun. Like, you know what I mean? And like, I would never, but that's where the line is drawn is I would never make or ask the guys to do that. Yes. Right. And you would not and you're not putting yourself in danger either on a job site or on a hill, right? Exactly. Yeah. Like that's it. Yeah. You can get hit, walk in the cross in the street. Exactly. And yeah. And I think the biggest,

biggest thing you can do for safety is be alert and pay attention. The accidents happen when you're distracted and you're not aware of your surroundings. It doesn't matter how many harnesses, how many ropes you have, like an accident will still happen if the guy's not paying attention and he's complacent. Yep. So that's what I stress to the guys all the time. Be aware it's a job site. Yeah. Always be aware. And everybody's there to do a good job and everybody's

there to go home. Yeah. Yeah. So they can do another good job tomorrow. Yeah, exactly. Simple. Simple math, man. We're getting close to the end, man. I know that. Well, listen, we haven't even talked about, I know before we started recording, man, forming and how, let's just basically say it, man. I know we haven't even got. You ain't doing ICF.

Yeah. You're a dinosaur at this point, man. Yeah. Simple as that. If you're building a house with a conditioned basement or a conditioned space on the interior of your foundation, it makes absolutely no sense not to do ICF. 100%. And I actually had a project that I turned down because of it. They didn't want to do it. They was, you know, they're kind of an old, more old school architect or big builder kind of group out of the city. And, you know,

I bid the project and I was like, I gave them two prices even. I was like, here, I'll traditionally form it. And then you still have to do X, Y and Z to insulate and back frame your frost walls and all this. Or here's ICF, my quotes, $20,000 cheaper for labor, and you don't have to do anything afterwards. And they said, nah, we don't want to do that. I said, goodbye, not my project for me then. Wow. Like if you, you know, and it's kind of nice that sometimes I can do that, but it's,

I don't know. I don't want to build, like, I don't want to go backwards. If we can build more efficient, like I don't want to not build more efficient that I really know how to do. So to me, that was like, I want to drive by there 50 years from now and know that you built that you formed it, you framed it. Yeah. And it was just a red, you know, people like that. That was just a

red flag that they didn't want to change their way. When did you learn that? I mean, because that's the thing that kids, a lot of kids nowadays, they have a hard time saying no, they just think that they need to gobble up all the work. Yeah, I don't know. It's, it's, I'm still struggling with that, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I was also, I think I was saying, well, I didn't have the

crew, but I was also saying no, maybe too much. There's a, like I was more, I was, I think I was the other side of the line, where it's like, I was too cautious and like, oh, no, we can only do one a year, like I can only take on one home a year, like, you know, we're just afraid of growing just in case. Yeah, it was more just, I didn't have the guys to be honest, like, if it's only me and two other guys, like, I can't, like, you know, it's hard. Yeah, stuff's going to sit for a while

and like no one's going to be happy and right. So because they're looking at you to get to the next stage. Yeah, exactly. And you know, you don't want to be that, that guy. Yeah. Yeah. That guy that they're waiting on. Right. Right. So, so yeah, I mean, back to ICF, just everyone needs to start waking up. It's unfortunate. I get that there's a lot of companies here and out West, probably, that have spent a lot of money and building or buying their forms and building all that

shit and getting it all ready. But oh, you're talking about like, yeah, yeah, like Perry forms or yeah, all kinds of stuff. So that's that's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing that that's the number one reason why they don't want to just jump ship and go into ICF land because they've already invested into so much. And I'm like, Yeah, I get it. But we're not listening to music on

a track anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like time to right. The same thing is, yeah, if you invest in a huge record collection, you probably have your vinyls at your house and you have your record player and it's a nice nostalgic kind of thing. But you still get in your car and you use your iPhone, still go to the job site and you use your iPhone. So it's, you know, right. And, you know, people will still, they'll still do concrete basements for a while. I think not everything's

going to be ICF. I bet you there's a guy who has an actual A track in his Ford or something. I'd like to see that. I wasn't around for eight tracks, man. I don't think as before my time. And by the way, it's a track like a not eight, not eight. Oh, a lot of idiots thought that you could only put eight songs on that thing. And I'm like, I thought it was eight tracks. I thought I, I honestly, I'm one. I thought it was eight tracks. I didn't think you could only put eight,

but I thought it was eight. But yeah, man, I, I see F it's, I don't know. I wasn't a believer. Really? You weren't convinced when you first saw it? You're like thinking the same, right? No, I was the same as most carpenters. And like, it was kind of why I hated, you know, same reason why I also hated the bone just before I even started it, because it wasn't wood and I wasn't a carpenter in my eyes. Like, you know, and I still, from an efficiency and a build point,

ICF makes way more sense. Does. But as a carpenter, I'd rather traditional form everything. Yeah, but we go back to line item and overall, right? So line item, ICF versus overall, the whole building structure, yeah, it makes sense at that point. But this is construction. It's hard to get dinosaurs to embrace new tech. And, and where I'm lucky is I do foundation and framing, right? So in my true passion is more framing than the foundations, right? And, and because it's like,

then I look at it like, okay, ICF is just a means to get framing quicker. Yeah. Right. So like, what it is. Yeah. So if I don't get my enjoyment out of actually like, you know, the, but we still, and I don't know, I wouldn't get enjoyment out of rental forms anyways, or, you know, or like just slapping panels up and, and you know, I mean, where I get the enjoyment out of traditional forming is exposed architectural snap tie walls. Right. That's, that's, you know,

that's what gets me off like informing. It's impressive. Yeah. Yeah. Where you get to see it and like, you know, but if we're going to backfill both sides and frost wall, then like, why do you care if you're using a rental form or your own Perry forms or your aluminum forms or ICF, right? So is there anything else you want to share before we get to the 12 questions? We'll probably have to do this again. Oh, I feel like we didn't talk about framing.

Oh, we talked about framing. Did we? What do you want to talk about? I got nothing. First of all, I said, I got off a plane yesterday. I don't have anything on a list here, Manny. Anybody want to talk about framing? Just go to his page and you'll pay attention to his framing. Yeah. I shoot me a DM. I love talking shop. You know, you're always, you're getting a little, you're not getting irritated. You're always, people are always reaching out to you, man.

And just, I don't get irritated. I pretty much try to respond to everyone. Yeah. If you got questions or whatever, or, you know, yeah, reach out. I'm always, always, always answering the DMs on Instagram and I love talking shop, whatever it may be. Kid pound for pound Tim. Uh, lb4lbframeform.com Timmy at lb4lbframeform.com on Instagram pound number four pound for framers. Sorry, framers. Uh, 12 questions, man. Oh boy. I'm ready. Yeah. But you know these

questions, man. Yeah, I do. What is your favorite construction word? Money. It's a good word. But, but not money in the sense of dollars. We use money. Like whenever a corner is good, I put a dollar sign on it. When I plumb a corner money, money, money, money. What is your least favorite construction word? Oof. I don't know. Oof. No. Change order. But I don't even hate them that much. I don't know. You don't hate change orders anymore? I guess. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to retract that.

Uh, do, uh, but we've always done it this way. Yeah. I hate that. Oh, it's the worst. That's such a, I don't know. What turns you on in construction? Cantilevers. Two to one? It depends. Depends, right? Yeah, depends. What's the longest cantilever you've done? I've done? Oh, I think I've actually haven't done that many huge cantilevers. I think it was 20 foot, 20 foot out. 20 foot? Yeah. What were the, I think it was a 60 foot steel beam.

Something like that. That's like you cantilever over Toronto house. Yeah. What turns you off in construction? Uh, um, the mentality that you can't figure it out when guys are like, Oh, I don't know. It doesn't work. There's always a way. There's always a way. Always a way. Or like, I don't know. Yeah. If there wasn't always a way, we'd be like in a cave right now cooking dinner. What's your favorite curse word? Oh, I don't know. Fuck.

What's a good one? Favorite vehicle of all time. Vehicle? Anything. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say snowmobile. Do we have to, if we have to pick a specific one, I'd say an 852 stroke turbo. That's a vehicle. What's your least favorite vehicle? Oh man, it's gotta be those, those, uh, those, the hamster, the hamster boxes, the soles, the Kia soles or whatever. Oh man, those things. The commercial, the old commercial or the hamster was driving down in

the box. I think all those, that and the cube and like those vehicles should all be just buried. That's all in concrete. Yeah. Or electric. I don't like electric vehicles. We don't need to go there, though. What's your least favorite? Oh, sorry. What construction sound or noise do you love? Chainsaw. What construction sound or noise do you hate? Multi-tool. Especially the wall one. Yeah. The boy, I purposely bought two Makitas because the boys' DeWalt's are so loud. I don't even

use them. I guess I'm like, you're a farmer. You should be able to do everything. I bet you, if you were to wrap the DeWalt multi-tool in a wet towel, it still will sound like that. Oh, yeah. Man, you can hear, you can hear it like down the neighborhood when someone's using it. It's wild. What, sorry. What was that? Oh, yeah. Sorry. What profession other than your own would you like to attempt? Engineering. Engineering. That's what I thought. What profession would you never

want to do? Or, sorry. Sorry. Or a rally car driver. That'd be pretty fun. Man, you just like, knees are busted. You know, rally car drivers break other bones, right? It's like what Ken Block said. With age comes a cage. I could see you doing rally car. Yeah. And you're in a cage. Five-point harness cage, full flyer, tarned suit, helmet, neck brace. But you go where that thing goes. Yeah. And then you stop where that thing stops. Yeah. But as long as you're harnessed and you

got a metal cage around you, you're good. What profession would you not like to do? I don't envy people in customer service. It's like any kind of customer service. Like, I know like technically like clients and stuff, it's different. I mean, like walk in the door and they want a drink or I don't know. I just see so much of that. Even like, even in McDonald's, like, I don't know, people grind my gears, man. Like they're freaking out about $2 on a cheeseburger.

It's like, here, I'll pay for your cheeseburger. Just leave this person alone who's working there, making minimum wage. I know. Life needs to be better. Yeah. Last question. If heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at those pearly gates? Turn around, you're not done yet. Tim, man, good to see you, bro. Yeah, you too. Thanks for having me, man. This has been awesome. We'll definitely have to do it again. I love seeing you, man. You're looking well. You're

looking good. You are. You're looking good, man. It's good to see you because I know we've spoken quite a bit and it's just like, that's it. It's all good, man. So thanks for making the time. Literally, you're making the time. You're literally driving around Ontario right now, taking care of certain things and all of a sudden you're like, I'll make a pit stop at TCL studio and just make a show, man. Yeah, there we go. I'm glad it worked out. Thanks, man. I

appreciate it. Yeah. Everybody check them out again at lb4lbframeform.com and reach out to them, Timmy at lb4lbframeform.com and also on Instagram is the best way to get a hold of you, right? Yeah, Instagram. Totally pound for pound framers. That's it, man. Yeah, buddy. I think we're out of here, man. We're out. We're out. We're out. Angelina?