Have you ever wondered whether the problems in the world today would exist if we had deeper connection to ourselves, others and the environment and acted from that place?
Welcome to the conscious action podcast with your hosts, Brian Berneman and Kayla Greenville who believe that connection is the key to taking conscious action as individuals and creating a better world.
We are here to raise awareness and inspire meaningful action by sharing stories, knowledge and conversations with thought leaders and change makers
from sustainability to wellbeing and everything related to conscious living. Our mission is to empower you to be the change that you want to see in the world.
Welcome Kate.
Thanks for having me. Yes. Kate hall,
AKA ethically, Kate, thank you a more, um, non by.
Hopefully at the end of the day,
I find that when I'm talking about you, I will
often say I
will often call you ethically cage
people know who?
Yeah, I think the most of the time it was just a kid. Oh, okay. It's
cool about it. It's just, yeah.
It's a nice way to be defined
because it could be like, okay,
you know, the one with the red here or the one with the big feet or,
you know, ethically. Very nice. I remember I made that name up, like brand name with, um, termina. Like I think I was at like a pitcher station thing. We were on a road trip. Remember. That exact moment. You're like, Oh, that makes sense.
Cool. Yeah. Thank you very much for being here and for being on the podcast and like not only the podcast, everything that you've been involved with, conscious action. And, uh, it's been lovely to share this, this journey with you and to be able to, to have so much stuff come on, even though we come from different places and different backgrounds and different message in a sense. Mm, but quite similar and as well. Yeah. So
yeah, Kate's actually the only person that we have defined or given the title of contraception ambassador.
It is an honor, the one and only, and,
um, for those of you who haven't been to,
um, well, all of our base, which is most
of you, Kate has, um, featured in maybe two or three,
I've been to. More than that. I can't remember if I'm like sitting there cause it's such a, like a, um, you know, I love the conversations we have at your event. So sometimes like can't remember if I was actually there to talk or actually just in the crowd. Yeah.
Yeah. We love that. We love that about our, um, our events. That's one of our favorite
kind of attributes. Same. It takes a good event for people to feel like they can speak up. So it's a tribute to you guys. Thank you.
So we're going to start, even though we've been talking now for a few minutes, we're going to start as we're going to do with every podcast with one question. And that is what's your one conscious action quote, unquote, uh, that you can believe that you did. And how much have you learned or changed since then?
Okay, so I have a, um, a picture that was taken three years ago, so only three years ago. I mean, this is a long time. It was small time. And in the scheme of life of me on honeymoon with like four straws coming out of a cocktail, I have that because there's a picture, there's two other people who had met on a honeymoon in the picture. And I have it actually like in my house, up on the wall because it's. Like it's a conversation starter, but it's also reminds me.
I mean, that's just one unconscious action that I wasn't, I know often when you're, when you're traveling in your, um, overseas, Pesach has had it to avoid then different places. Um, like New Zealand is relatively easy from my experience. Um, but it's just kind of a big symbol. I think to me, I literally, in my mind, I wasn't even like, Oh, I asked for no straw and they gave me a straw. I was like, Yeah, no, it was not actually in my mind. No, I was doing.
And even though I've composted my whole life and I've had, was buying second hand and like, if it can make clothes and stuff at the time, Smells like my drink. Yeah.
Yeah. Cool.
Nice memory. And like, now that you just mentioned a little bit about you've been composting and things like that, can you tell us, um, for the ones that don't know anything about you, a little bit about where you're from, how you grow up and what led you into this
life? Well, um, so I, a while ago I would've said, Oh, I started this about five years ago when I watched true cost. And that was like the secret status, but I've recently, um, really it's really hit me how my parents have instilled these values with me for ever, um, like it was quite a shock when I'd go, you know, when you grow up and you're becoming more people's houses and you're putting your waste.
Yeah, and you go are compost bin and they're like composting, like, does it, not everyone happens so different things like that. I think the values, yeah. Looking after people, your local community, your global community, and being quite thrifty with your resources, like using the teabag twice to get the most, you, um, have always been instilled in me. From day dot. Apparently I will reusable nappies.
Yeah. My parents sort of, obviously I didn't make that decision, but, um, so I think, yeah, it was a combination of that. Um, I, for two years, when I was about 19, I lived in Mongolia for two years. And so. I think when you're like removed from your comfy questioning life in New Zealand and you're taking out there a like, it's.
Obviously an environmental thing you like see waste in different ways cause they have different ways systems and it's something that you just have to process and think about, but they, you, um, I know you connect with a culture and another way you have different values around how they respect and interact with the planet and environment. And I think. Yeah, that plus just seeing the people and wanting to look after them. Cause that's, um, the opposite to New Zealand.
Like we'd have strict cause not going to do every day asking me for different things. Um, so you're, you know, exposed quite a lot and you have to make quite a lot of decisions about the world at a young age. So that was quite like probably more impacting yeah. What I'm doing today than I ever thought. But it was five years ago. Yeah. Five years ago that, um, I watched the true cost and I was like, okay, I love, love fashion.
I love clothes so much and expressing myself in their way, but I can't, I just can't continue. Did that bullshit. Like I can't, you know, like, um, so yeah, that was kind of instigated to all of this. And then I just added yeah. Making more conscious decisions. And, um, the reason I share about it now is because I just I'm a talk and extrovert and a communicator.
I just felt really, um, like it was, I wasn't doing justice to like my friends and family and, and people, if I wasn't telling them about this things, cause you don't know if you're not told, you know, like it's some people sure. They choose to be ignorant. And I know. Yeah. But I just felt like. Yeah. There's people, if you know, you usually you want to do the right thing. So,
yeah. And especially now that you're in this space and you're knowing, and knowing, and learning and learning so much
that it would be almost like
crawl to keep it in. Right. Because it would be counterproductive to the whole vision and mission anyway.
So when you watch, you know, the most like sweet and pure, and you know, those people who just like light the room, um, and they do an action. Let's say around their waist, around their consumption. That is totally the opposite to that. But it was just because that's what they've been taught. Like totally nothing to do with them. It's like, well, you know, how can we, you know, kindly just. I don't know, she has education knowledge together and that's what yeah.
Being, you know, kind of inclusive about it is yeah. What I'm all about.
Yeah. And that's something that for me, and this is just my belief. Like I believe that everyone is a nice person. I really like that everyone cares. We do care perhaps about different things in different degrees, but I believe that everyone actually is nice. You're hard to people and we just don't know better. Um, sometimes it's just, even if we know, as you said, it's hard, it's hard ignore that. Ah, I want to look that way and then keep on doing this, which is the most convenient thing.
Yeah. It's, it's one of the things that are, that I see nowadays that people know you. Um, what we are trying to do. We have that when we are talking with people and it's not for everyone that I see, like sometimes people are like pointing fingers and attacking.
I think some people need to hear it in that way though. There's some people who've literally needed a slap in the face. Not literally, but yeah. You know how to
respond to different ways of being
differently. Cause there's some people who they really appreciate that directness and they appreciate it. I just, um, I get asked a lot online about how do I deal with the people who are always so negative? Cause people like I have friends who want to have children, cause they're so scared. I have friends who.
Um, they genuinely like the guilt because they can't be perfect and they know the guilt and the overwhelming reality, like actually just paralyzes them from doing anything or enjoying life. Oh wow. In a minute. Yeah. Like I totally get it. That doesn't mean that that's not my reality sometimes, but like you're on this earth for very short time.
Enjoy it because Y Y you know, I asked, um, and just like, try to do your best and share, you know, kindness to everyone, because I just don't think, um, we can't, we can't, we can feel that sense of guilt and like at a heartbreak around reality, but we can't sit in it or comment that Roberts. Of like a happy, it feel like
mental health as the, like there's a lot of gray areas, but when it gets to your mental health, it's black and white, right? Like sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Yeah. I mean, I'm deep in there as a new parent. It's very hard. Um, and even our friend Josephine Roselyn who's. Zero waste just Josephine is UA ethically. K. I'm really finding it so difficult because it's, there's just so much involved and you're so tired and so time poor.
And I think that guilt and that, um, yeah, that paralyzing fear of, Oh, well I can't, or I can't let anyone see me like that. So it's just that lack of compassion for yourself and others. No,
it's the paralyzed you're paralyzed. You can't do anything. Do you know what I mean? Like, you're so scared that you don't want to lift a finger. We need people who are like, right. I'm going to bulldoze through this issue and just try my damn best. You know, like if there's a problem, like if, um, if there was something happening here and that I know a pipe burst or something, no matter how diet looks right. You try to fix it. Cause there's a chance that you can fix it. Even if yeah.
Like I said, it's in. Yeah. So, yeah, I think we will need to take that perspective more because it's just, we're all getting, I mean, and the way that I do, because a lot of, obviously it takes more time to make your own food from scratch and all these things. It can take less time if you really implement it and do it right, and really strategic about it. But I realized that I'm quite privileged around, this is part of the work that I do.
So like I have more time and it's, you know, It's an investment and part of my work life, as well as my life life though, I do a lot of. Oh, thanks. I suppose it's my downtime is doing that stuff, but I realized that I don't have children and I don't have like a nine to five job that I have to go to. Um, I work far more than a nine to five job, but, um, I realize it is difficult for people to always do the right thing. And even for me, I can know about.
Plastic pollution wholeheartedly and still be like, I have to buy that thing in plastic at the supermarket because there's no other alternative or medical world
or, you know, there's so many places. Yeah. And especially now, I mean, with this Corona virus, um, fear cloud among everything there is, I just, you know, Starbucks is not accepting reusable cups anymore. McDonald's and, um, a bunch of other cafes I'm sure. And you know, things like that, where that. Hygiene and sanitation kind of really comes into conflict with this whole way of life. And that's been always a challenge, but just particularly hard right now.
Yeah. And that's, there is something that I find super interesting. So looking back 100 years ago, life was so different. Like a lot of the things that now are convenient. They didn't exist back then. And it's incredible for me to understand this like 100 years or so. The amount of change that we have embarked in the Western civilization, at least. Uh, the amount of plastic, the Mundo of single use items, no coal consumption has neg skyrocketed.
It's, it's interesting because that wasn't the way before. So how did we get to the point where this is the not Mount and this is so convenient that most people are actually trying to do it, and it's super hard. Like that, isn't very interesting bond for me. And the other one is that, and, and you mentioned before, like this climate society. I've been talking to so many people in nasty sailing and they're completely paralyzed. They didn't know what to do there. Government is useless and
if Ron's ending.
Yeah. It's like, and I, like, I come from a place of like, you know, like life is precious. Like I'm alive. Like I'm going to make the best out of my life. And. And when I see people that are super paralyzed, just because of things that are out of their control. And I'm always kind of like what I can control. I try to do something, what I can control, I can't control and just need to let that go.
But most people don't know, you don't have the tools and the mechanisms to actually be able to deal with that. Like, it's not some of the skills that we have learned. Um, no, I think we need to start teaching this
well, it's interesting how, like the, this conversation of your mental health and like, you know, mindfulness and your, your whole wellbeing is interrelated to all this stuff that people often.
Your box at the, like there's any ways to the mindfulness people, but it's actually, so I talk a lot about mindfulness and a lot about how I look after myself and how I structure my day and how, because I'm like, it's all so interwoven, even my ex of having a small village again, so I can grow some, my own food, um, making meals, making your own cleaning products and fixing things that is. Hugely beneficial from a mental health. Like that's, it's, I've seen that become a personal benefit.
Not only do I feel like, yeah, this is Pema SAP on the back, you know, you and those practices actually. I very like human in there and just, yeah, you're you're, I think we've forgotten that. So important to just look after your, like your basic needs are free feeding yourself. It was so able to just grab stuff and, and live in a psych fairytale world of like meetings and co you know, like all this stuff, which is equally important. Totally.
That we talk about this, like going to go onto a retreat, go on and say, Oh, lovely things to do. But some people just need to. Like when you, if you start doing this zero waste kind of ethos of living. Yeah. It's awesome. It's like every day, mindfulness.
I think I'd like one of the things for me, it's always like slowing down is huge because a lot of things that are zero wave started to reduce our footprint are things that actually require us to slow down
and to stop and think about what you're doing. Rather than just being alone. And it's
probably, you know, by default, that is what we all need to be doing right now. Like the whole world has been, go, go, go, go, go. Since like industrial revolution, we have been grow, grow, grow, and we've reached a point, a breaking point in many areas of society, particularly in mental health. And it feels like if you were going to live in alignment with yourself and in alignment with the planet, which is the same thing, That you are required to slow down and again, goes against the grain.
And that I feel is the biggest shift. And like you say, it's all interwoven, everything needs and is slowly shifting. And there's some breaking points that are needed to tip that people over the edge. And it just feels like an exciting time to be in the space because not only the space, it alive, it's an exciting time to be alive.
Hmm. Cause even, even, um, businesses and, you know, cause everyone, mostly it will work in the corporate world or sort of the desk or different things like that. Um, you know, their, their eyes to how important is to look after their people in this way and with their kind of sustainable business practices that then helps, you know, all of their employees. And so, you know, so it's not, it's not just being anti what we're doing. I think it's more changing the systems and how we do this
life. The pho integration. Right. And I was going to ask some veggie. You mentioned that, um, you're incorporating mental health and mindfulness in your discussions because was that something that was clear to you at the start or is that being a bit of an insight? Come on your
agenda as of yet. As it's happened. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, I'm quite an active relaxer. I'm someone who's, I've had like, um, shingles and chronic fatigue and stuff before from running myself into the ground. Um, and I love, cause I just love all the things and I love just doing everything. Um, everything just makes us, um, and I just want to help. And so, um, I think, like I said, Brian, about.
Slowing down, all these things make us slow down, um, has helped me to not burn myself out and that's actually sustainable, um, know for my life. So yeah, I mean, not saying that I'm not perfect and I have my moments, but it does this, this. Kind of habit of thinking about what I'm doing. Cause I'm always questioning and always learning. I am by no means perfect.
And yeah, someone I do with my life, but this act of content, you know, every day I'm thinking how I can do this different, how I can do this, makes me kind of like prioritize things properly. And then you prioritize yourself and your family really. And, you know, Yeah, your friends I'm a bit away. So it feels
like it's all sinking up.
It's like you
pulled a thread and now it's like this
whole
I'm not
mosaic. What is the word? When you're talking about threads,
fashion lady,
um, quilts, the whole quilt of life
has started to unveil itself to you. And
it's
beautiful to be having this conversation because I love meeting people who are in their flow. I love meeting people who are lit up by what they do. And that can't just be when you get to work at nine and when you leave at five. So, and it's, it doesn't mean that you can't have that. If you work a nine to five meeting those people, that it's just all encompassing. It's so refreshing to me and I enjoy being around around you and those people. So it's um, yeah, it's called you're. You've seen the.
The holistic newness
of it. Yeah. It's been such a, I don't know all the positive benefits. I'm going to do this for the planet or for other people. And you're like, ah, this is actually really good for me. And do you find that
once it's like, okay, I need to learn how to do this. So you go out and you, I know you do a lot of research. You do a lot of communicating with brands and you get your facts and then you learn it. And then do you kind of just bank it as like, okay, well, that's just part of my life now. And then onto the next learning, you know, I think it would be overwhelming for some people in that, especially when you're starting to go, Oh my God, she makes her own cleaning products. She fixes things.
She's got a veggie garden. How do I do all of this a lot?
It is a lot. And it's actually, um, toggle, you brought this up cause I've been working with just a few friends to see if this is going to be helpful for people, um, to like. The order of what they're currently doing and then recommend what they could do. And it's totally unsustainable to like, look at, you know, currently how, for example, I live my life and be like, okay, here you go. Do that. Like do that for fun. Thanks to saving the planet because that's not going to happen. Like, even if.
I'm like, I'm working with an awesome couple of new, great friends of mine now. And she was like, so enthused and I, I love it. She was like, incredible. And they'll have, yeah, they'll make so many calls. Yeah. Changes and they already don't a lot. Um, but you can see, you want to do it like right now, it's like, actually, His, his prof things. This is literally what I've done. Here's 12 things in your change, and this is going to happen over a year.
And firstly, um, for anyone, um, that what, but I want to do it all. Now I can do that then easy. That's easy. Like, but change fatigue is a thing and you have a life and you have children and you, you know, life isn't predictable, anything could happen. So, um, It's definitely not changing overnight. Um, for me, the whole fashion thing actually did kind of change overnight after watching the true cost.
You know, when you, I think it's the one time in my life, I've felt like I actually had a light bulb above my head, or I woke up feeling. Different. Um, and, but that was that's one change, right? Like that's my clothes. So it's not something I consume every day in terms of, yeah. I was never a big shop in any way. Um, so changing slowly, I, there's still big goals that I have that I'm changing slowly. Um, and so it's. Definitely unsustainable to change all at once.
That's such a good point for life and such
a good point, throwing everything. People were so much like go throw away their wardrobes and all of their chemical based cleaners or, and just throw away the whole pantries and get, get all the pictures. Perfect jazz. And then they go, okay. Sort of living is so expensive.
Like.
Let's throw away all that you have. So if you're, you know, swapping things over slowly, um, and you're doing things, I recommend people do it until it just becomes easy. Not just you don't once. Oh yeah. Like that was a little bit different. Like, for example, when I went through my food and I was trying to reduce my waste, it was okay. My breakfast, I met me. I'm usually made it for the first time. It was a little bit awkward when, you know, like what.
Yeah. Balance of things like burn that to match lifted on for too long. And then after like a month or maybe making that every week, um, I started to like, Oh, this is good. So did it, I think for like another month and I was like, okay, this is like super easy. Now this is a kind of habit. Um, I don't want to just eat muesli for breakfast every morning cause I'm be about over it. So what's another thing I can make. And so it's like, you know, you have to make them actually become.
Proper habits, I think,
acknowledging that patients to you like,
yeah.
And that's not something that's easy for anyone and change requires. I mean, w we've got to, it's like a chronic, it's a chronic thing, right? It's happened over time. So, where do we want to go to is also going to happen over time? And I think part of the whole reason we're in this nice is because everyone wants change now. Totally want everything now and including the good stuff and it isn't sustainable, it just doesn't work.
And so the, to be leading by example and, and really living with that patients, I think is hugely.
Sometimes I'm just like, I just want to do this. Or sometimes I'm like, Oh, all of my. Odd jars and ice cream. Condensers are random things. Look so ugly. Instagram, not, I'm not spending money on new jazz, jazz.
I think that's also the evolution of Instagram is that now I also want to say they want posts. They want to say you're shitty at your house. They want to say you're old
now. Then the ones that look perfect cost, like hundreds of dollars just for the receptacles that you're
putting. But you also created a lot of waste by doing that.
Totally. Just trying something new. Exactly. It will probably come to your house and pay. Yeah,
no, I haven't noticed like, actually one of the biggest things that I've been going through for the last three, four years has been my cloud. Yeah. I'm like this doesn't reflect who I am.
This
I have, like, I have the same like gloves. We can look through my photos, like having worn the same things for the last 15 years, but it's not me, like all of the branding that it has. And I'm like, And I'm like, you know, I'm not going to get anything new because this still works. Them have a few holes. And like, sometimes I fix them and don't, but it's like, what speaks Mark? And this is the interesting thing, what the people see when they see.
Yeah. Do they see, I mean, I can't do anything about what people actually think, but a lot of people will think like, Oh Brian, like, he's talking about , that's like, t-shirt like those shoes, like that's not, and that's not like that's plastic, like whatever. And like, I understand that.
And I understand the showing, but also like if I get the new one, even though it might be from an ethical, sustainable blocking line, it's still something new and they still have a perfectly good piece of thing. And I find that like, for me, it's like, I actually, my values. No, this means way more like I'm not buying anything new. I've been wearing the same thing for many years.
And at some point I'm sure that there will make a bigger transition and be like, okay, like, yes, now I want something different. Yeah. But it's such an interesting thing. And I think that this, our mindset is huge. Like I know that for me, no, almost everything that I do comes from the place that. I understand myself and I have done a lot of work with myself and I do have that patience and I do have resilience and to be able to work with that. So when I'm ready, I made the change.
And I go slowly and I, that this is huge for people that, and they're like, what do I do? And like, I have this, all of these charts and they are ugly. And it's like, and people are going to charge me if I take them to the refrigerator. Like,
it's a very real feeling. Cause you're in yeah. A judgment that humans are judgment judgmental.
Right? It's very much an
ego point. Isn't it. And you have all these ideas subconscious or not that. Are like, yeah, I can't, I can't be seen with this brand or I can't have things. Um, yeah. So it's differently. Everything is linked to everything. Cause it's not, you're not just like, Hey, okay. I can't just spin it to something. Yeah. Bypass, liquid, penetrates what your baby tooth brush. It's like, I'm questioning the very actions that make you, you I'm Christian and it's telling you to change these innate things.
Like how you. Put clothes on yourself, you know, like that's really personal and people like comment on that to
be so sick. Like Brian, you're a great example. And also, okay. I loved your. Um, posts around fashion week, how you repurpose the same, it was a dress, wasn't it. Um, and, and both of you, uh, those examples of caring more about your values than your appearance,
um, putting with what other people would think.
You know, like, fuck it. I don't care what anyone thinks of my tissue. Yeah. I know that I'm acting within my values and that confidence in yourself is a
rare trait. Like you said, Brian, it's like people, what are people going to comment on? Or people are gonna perceive you as, and. For example, fashion week wearing the same dress. Some people had like three outfit changes a day and everyone's watching what you're wearing. Right? Like, I mean, there's everyone watching. Everyone's probably caring about what other people were thinking. But, um, like for me, it wasn't actually even much of a big decision.
I was like, Oh, the theme sustainability, I'm going to wear, I'm going to be like, say like I have clothes that could wear, but. I'm going to wear this dress and style it in different ways. And it was crazy how much, Whoa, that's insane. I'm like a dirt race made to not just be a disposable skin that you see once online.
Um, but I do think even going back to, I've been caught up sometimes wanting to just use what I have and I've actually lost myself in it because I haven't, for example, if I had stopped and just went, I'm just going to wear the clothes I have. Um, Or I'm thinking back to like a maid. I built a standard.
Yeah. I guess with just things I found on the home and it actually made me not wanting to not want to go into my work room and actually physically be in pain from standing 24 seven, cause standing 24 seven. Isn't better. Like if you have the same basic. Yeah. And so sometimes I do have to weigh up. Yeah, like Lou losing yourself. Cause you're just comprising with what's around you. Does that make sense? Like, Oh, we'll just use that.
Um, there's old catchers because you know, they exist in our lives. So actually I feel really like negative in this space. If they continue to be here for my whole life, they don't represent like us or they don't look nice and it doesn't make me feel nice. And that.
It's interesting. No, I had that and I know again, like I'm not the norm on this, but I was thinking like that at the time I was, I went to an event and they, and I didn't have dinner before I went there. Um, and there wasn't any food at the event, so I. Things that they went down like, okay, like I am walking home that's it was like 15 minutes walk. So I'm got I'm, I'm going to go back somewhere and get something.
And I started going burst out of this from blizzard and leg, plastic, plastic, not vegan, plastic, not vegan. And I got home and it was like super late. I'm like, okay, I'm just not going to it. Yeah. Uh, and that won't give because I fast alerts. So I was okay with that. And then I was thinking like, Nick, how many people are with actually just that, like not eating. Yeah,
I've definitely done it before
it does. And I think that's an interesting thing of like, this is a completely personal thing and sometimes like, I will do it and sometimes I'm like, you know, I just, again, to go sit down and spend some more money and whatever.
Yeah. I think there's a time and a place yeah. To choose those things. It's about that convenience thing. Right. And how society currently isn't set up to fill, like to meet our values. These particular values that we're talking about. Um, but sometimes you have to choose like, um, I went to a wedding in India. I have to choose if you're going to be there for one of your good friends, big day and fly on, on like, yeah.
Um, and B. They had no, um, water source at the place for eight days out of like the two weeks whenever we were there. And so you're like, okay, so do I not drink water eight days of dehydration? Exactly. Or try to, yeah. So I had my steady pain, which sterilizes the water part of the trip and they were all like, wow, sure. Then goes, but you know, there's different moments like that.
Yeah. Well, even though every inch of your body is like, Oh, I mean, that's actually like me using bottled water for eight days is not the end of the world compared to the impact. Someone can ask him, you know, and
also the impact of healthy humans, mentally and physically. And the vibe that they put out to the world is so important, especially for the change. Even like I had a similar example yesterday, I was very overwhelmed with, um, Mother stuff and, um, the solids food and like having to time between naps and getting outside and giving them these different environments. And I finally got it right. Everything lined up to leave, and I realized I didn't have any food from. And I was like, Oh my God.
So then I went back inside and boiled some Coomera and put it in my little container. By the time I got out, I had like, basically got to the playground, had to turn around and come home for his next net. I called my sister basically in tears, like, Oh, I can't do this. And she's like, Kayla. Go and buy some of those jars go and buy some of those plastic pouches, if you have to.
Yeah, I know it's not good for the environment, but like, if you're going to go insane, like if you're going to have a mental breakdown,
it is
like in the scheme of things, that is a tiny thing, right? Like, yes, the jars are much better than the past six, so that's an easy decision,
but I didn't even want to use it.
Yeah. But it's like,
what is more important?
And what kind of mother am I being? What kind of vibe am I putting out to the other mums and the playgrounds and the, you know, everything about that decision. It's wrong to, to be a shitty human stressed out. It's not good for myself. It's not good for anything.
Yeah. I always say to people when, like the problem isn't. You putting those styles in the cycling, let's say the problem is if you didn't think about it as you put it in, do you know what I mean? Like, it's a good point. Like the problem doesn't lie in those things happening from conscious people. It's the stick in that? We don't think about it as we do it. That's the, that's the scary thing. That's the issue. Yes. And so it's not
unconscious polluting of defense.
And it's interesting that you mentioned the flying. Like it's one of the things that with a lot of people that, like they say like, Oh, you're big and you're always this, that, and I'm like, I fly. Hmm. I consciously choose to fly because I want to ACE in my family. I feel like traveling around the world is one of the biggest ways that I can grow and that I can educate my son. I'm learn different perspectives.
And as you say, like some places, like there's no, like what are the, you can drink like in New Zealand to get the plastic. Okay. Now my actions are different. If I see people like, Oh, like all of these other places in there. Pacific islands or in some word in Asia, like it's a completely different way of living completely different economy. And sometimes there are things that we can learn and sometimes it's like, Oh wow. Like, I can actually really appreciate that we have this here.
Yeah. I saw a quote and I'm trying to remember it, but I'm the guy that invented the light bulb. Innocent Edison is like something wasn't the light bulb. He used a candle light to invent the light bulb, something. It was something like
the person that invented the light bulb was the person that mandate solar panels was using petrol.
Yeah. To, to go around to meetings or that, you know, the person who invents the first, I mean the app. Navy planes and like coming into action. Wow. But the, you know, the person who first yeah. That I'm sure I had many really crucial meetings and like poignant moments of people. Yeah. Because he flew on a Rican plane. And so it's kind of like, I don't know that really, they really helped me when I read that
there's another one profound. And I think I even saw it on your account as well of like the, um, you know, the vagan who, whatever the same version, like the zero waster who doesn't use her bike. And yeah.
Yeah. I wrote a thing one day when I was literally sitting down and trying to think of someone in my life who is perfect. Uh, like from everyone. Yeah. And so I'm like, okay, so who's that? And I was like, listen, I don't know. But they like five race group as well. And then I was like, yeah. Oh my gosh, that's a great epiphany. Yeah. Like there's no one on
my list. Exactly why we start this podcast with the unconscious action Christian, because it's like, Taking not taking you down, taking the one down to realize that no one is perfect. The fact that we're even alive means we have a footprint and we say, We have a footprint in what we do with it is up to us. And that's that's. And that's why you mentioned like the conscious decision to throw something out. It's okay. It's, you know, better than an unconscious
unconscious decision. Yeah. Cause it's not the people like I often I feel like sometimes I'm just kind of preaching to the choir type thing. I really don't want to, I know I want to talk to the person and. And, you know, I have a conversation with the person who is just blown away and literally it's yeah. Cross their mind.
Cause it's what they've always done because that's the people who are continuing to just not even reduce the impact by a little bit, or, you know, those are the companies who aren't having, you know, who aren't thinking, they're the ones that we need to reach. Cause the others, like the second someone thinks, Oh, This coffee cup is a single use. I should use a reusable one. That's usually like just a gateway to everything else.
So like they will go on their own journey because that's just what happens with humans, but just, yeah, exactly, exactly that. So it's kind of like, yeah, that's not a problem. I mean, need a stop light. Well, is there a rice then someone gave me a piece of plastic and it ruined my life, you know, like when, like this needs to not be this, um, Yeah.
Yeah. Separate, trusted. Yeah. It's it's I think it's this place of compassion and kindness for ourselves as well as for others. Like I know I can't judge anyone because I'm not perfect.
Yeah, exactly.
Like understood that and had more like awareness of like, Ooh, I am not perfect. I can point a finger and I just can have a conversation. I can say, Hey, did you know about this? Like for example, like I was vegetarian, um, I was having a conversation with someone and they said like, Oh, did you know that this happened? I'm like, no, I didn't. And in that moment, like I was like, I'm not actually Syrian. I'm vegan. Yeah. Like, and I just changed my life lifestyle.
Like it was for you, like where the true cost, like for me, like that one was complex seminar. I was like, Oh, wow. I didn't know that that was happening. And no one actually cared about them. What my body is aligned with actually is with that. And I'm like, okay, like, Now I need to actually see how do I do that? Like, it's like there, I can't remember if it was your neck when I studied it, like trying to find like some for them.
Okay. Once I'm at some Oreos sound like, Oh no areas coming like plastic packaging, what do I do? So I ended up going to like, uh, the refinery and getting all of these ingredients and making it that was like, okay, I can stuff go in and get into the areas now. So it was to go out and buy ingredients and mix them and cook them. But at that time, I didn't really like for like the originally Mark, but it wasn't like, yeah,
I must do this. That you
also wait up. Is this going to impact my mental health to make the Oreos? No, I think I'll enjoy making the REO.
So I'm going to make,
not always, everyone's going to make the Oreos. That's okay. Do you have any advice Kate for, um, I mean, I bet you get this question a lot, say there's an eco warrior and a family of non eco warriors. How can they compassionately, uh, initiate the thread polling? Are they family?
Well, thanks. Um, it definitely depends on the situation. Um, one thing, cause I, I do, um, I would just start just can't remember who said it, but. Doing what you can. So having control of the things that you can, and also putting your hand up to help with, cause we're talking about, you know, like your household, how your household works. Um, so putting your hand up to which may inconvenience yourself and your time, but to take control over more of those things.
Um, so if you start by, I just don't keep talking about it. Cause the more resistance is going to be pushed back. Um, Because you'll find, if you just do the actions, then people you like, Oh, I saw you did that, that, you know, and they're inquisitive and it starts conversation. Again, obviously it depends on the family. Maybe they're just like super open and they just, you know, they liked to talk about these things all the time. They won't box you in your little ego, but just doing the do so.
For example, um, my husband, Tim and I live with in a home with two flatmates, um, and. There's things like that. We could have run a house in many different ways as a flat. Um, but I said I can buy all of the shared amenities. So, so pivot to it, paper to Montessori, cleaning products, all that type of stuff. I'll. By all of the acts, like we all share the payments, all those things, but I will be the person who goes to book Bachman store and get all that, or, you know, wherever I choose to.
So sure that may inconvenience me a bit more. Um, but I've, you know, then kind of, you know, took an initiative. Cause if that means something to me and then they have, I mean, they're already very awesome and how they live their lives, but yeah. Yeah, you see that kind of snowball and they make changes too from just watching stuff that happens. It's like children
mirroring parents in a way,
unconsciously
picking up what
are the Quizlet? Yeah, I pick up, I watch how they make meals. Sometimes I'm like, Oh, that's clever. And I do that. So I think it's just, um, yeah, doing by example, I think people get really caught up in because that must be really frustrating if you are in a home. That's just not one cares. And especially if maybe you're like a high school or something and you don't do all the grocery shopping, or maybe you could actually say that you could say, Hey, I really like to.
Be the grocery shopper of the house I've seen that happen. Yeah. And what before? Um, obviously you have to look at costs and how that works and things too. Um, and you know, transport, getting places can be hard, but, um, yeah, I think just stepping up, taking initiative, asking if you can take on more responsibility in the home. Um, or if people open the conversation to do things together, so.
Yeah. Even, even leaving non aggressive notes saying, Hey, why didn't you have a two minute shower instead of a 10 minute one today? Or, you know, like little, little things. I mean, that can, again, depending on your family that maybe be super inappropriate and so pushy, but I think, yeah, the little things as what makes
yeah. And I think that as soon as you said, like, perhaps. No, if you're not the one that goes and buys like, so like, To your mom house mate or whoever it is that actually goes and buys that and flag, Hey, instead of like that. So can you buy that one? If it's similar Bryce, I never run a verse on that. It's like, that's not a big thing for the person buying it.
And maybe during that, like making those suggestions over time rather than, Hey mom, look, I've learnt about all this stuff and here's the new list of things that I buy and yeah. Here's the neatest things you cannot buy in not having this home because it's so bad for the planet. Like you're not going to get anywhere if you start itching. So on that, because like I said, you're actually questioning how they, you know, you're pointing fingers. Cause you're saying that that's the wrong one.
So. I think, yeah, there is something to show for also helping people on the journey with you. So like the friends who watched the documentary at the same time as me, or we have those little conversations because they noticed that I'm doing, um, often people just come on that journey with you. If, if you do do well and you start small and make, yes, we're trying
to sort of accountability.
You kind of like, um, You understand? Cause obviously there's just so many different levels of, I'm just sending all like your knowledge and how deeply that sits into your why and then reflects in your actions. Hmm. And so if you're, um, Yeah, during that together.
And that's also a secret way to do it too, is to, if someone's watches the true cost, for example, and says, actually, I'm not going to buy whatever something. Um, then just sneaking that into the conversation every now and again, like, Oh, did you, how's it going? What, what did you buy? And then just to keep that thought running as opposed to going, like attacking them, you know, Oh, you bought it you or whatever, just, just sneaky
conversation. But it's so surprising. Like for the amount of people say, Oh, why. Got this thing or I'm doing this thing. Well, that's great. And I think that's because they expect, like when you're the eco area of your home or your friendships, the next bit you to go, Oh, that's great. And also I noticed that stronger drink and it was by now, but you know, like a big rant about it. People expect that and sometimes they're fishing for it because that's what humans do too. Like that's yeah.
People like to put. Yeah, poke your buttons. And so if you were just always kind about it and you're always just like lovingly, I don't know, really raising them up around the good things that they add doing. That's just, you know, I mean, that's just part of being a supportive person to do appears, but it's so much better than like just shouting it down.
Um, yeah, and I mean, there's a time and a place because sometimes they had been situations, um, That when you speak up and even if it's your closest of friends, um, it can, it can be upsetting situations, which I have definitely had, I shared about online public place. That's that's that, but yeah, once there was a moment where I questioned what two of my friends were doing right there. And then, and it was a little bit emotional cause they knew the facts of what was happening.
And I had just cause they were my closest friends. So I was like, I just, I couldn't. Yeah. You know, the, just so you know his, uh, yeah. And, and that can be awkward, but if it sit in love, I think that emotionally comes from being like, Oh yeah. All right. And then, you know, you're holding each other accountable.
Yeah. And you're getting into like bigger territory now. Just authentic communication people saying, saying no, or putting boundaries up or questioning things. But from a place of love. Totally,
exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I think probably that's why it does depend on the family. If someone asks that question around how you yeah. How you can help them as, um, if you have a good relationship with your family, I have a few maybe book on that first. I'm more likely to listen and to understand that when you do come to them with some. That's about something that then they should change.
They're probably, they're going to know that you're saying this in love rather than it just be a deck to be defensive. So
just start wanting to invite any of that. I have another question. That's similar. Cause one, one thing that really grinds my gears is when I walked down the street, particularly in the city, but anywhere, and I have been known to lift a few limits on people's recycling bins, but the ones in the city really annoyed me because I see them. They're open because they're so full and people treat them obviously like rubbish spins as they walk past and they are full of nonsense.
So almost like I imagine that that when that gets to the station, that whole button is just thrown in the landfill. No one has time to sort through everything. So it's like contaminated waste off. It goes. So what do you do to stay positive? In a way, cause in your family and friends, like we've just talked about, you can lead by example and you can have conversations, but when it's something like that, it's not like you can go knock on the door of that business.
More
proclaim loudly from your soap box to all the people walking past that. But
how do you pass that then?
And not feel, um, you know, it can feel disempowering and like a setback, but I try not to, I don't want to feel like that. So do you have any tips for people who might feel disempowered
or, um, I think it goes back to that. Focusing on your own circle thing, because you can't change that person's recycling, um, even a few that walk up to their house or something like that. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you could email the Auckland council and be like, Hey, have I've noticed that. Cause they will read it. Like, you know, they're here for the people. Um, you can say, I notice this. People aren't recycling very well.
Imagine if a whole lot of emails, you know, kind of at once about that, if we actually understood. Oh yeah. I'll power. Um, you know, cause then they may like, Oh, we're thinking about doing a campaign to update people on the recycling thing. So that can also, even if let's say it doesn't get seen or it didn't get that can really help. Yeah. You feel like you actually have done something about it. Cause it's hard to feel palace when you look at that, Ben. Um, but focusing on what you can change.
So if you do have a friend who knows not going to recycling or something like that, um, Like I said, like kindly open up a conversation or, you know, showing them about, Oh, I've just learned some stuff about cycling. This is so cool. You know, like if you upscale yourself and it's something that, you know, you can show and get excited about other things.
What about if I made a pretend fine book and put my bank account on it?
I'm just kidding.
I imagined like, as a child, I imagined doing that on the beach. People just throw their cigarette butts going around and doing these fake fines and then getting
some pocket money that was
like an entrepreneurial,
um, fallback for you.
I wanted to know, uh, going at everybody into nuh back into the Trucost and fashion. What were the things that for you. That's true from what's in that I'm just now in general now that you know, white
Mark, I think what touched me most was that especially the fashion industry, because it's so like flashy and big lights and runways, and it's seen as very like glamorous, you know, like even, um, you know, all stores, it's very like commercialized and done very well. I think what struck me most and even continues to strike me to this day because I see. Even on runways.
So fleshing you're like someone just was sitting in a work Chrome who made this, like, that was the start of, it was not very, not no bright lights. You know, I think what struck me was that comparison, how that's, what we say, and it's beautiful and it's so inviting and you just, you know, it's really so like that. And for that. Like devastation, like socially for people to be abused and use for that to happen, particularly for us in the Western world to enjoy it.
I was like, that's just something that I want to be far, far, far from, um, I think, yeah, in particular, I think going back to how I lived in Mongolia, it's like, It's easy when you're over here to think of yourself, very different to the spec shop factory workers. Like, because you are, if you've not been there or how the media portrays them, it can feel like you're very disconnected from them.
Not that I was visited the factories in Mongolia, but it's kinda like, as soon as you leave your home, you just realize that we are all the same. Um, and so I think that was what really hit me was that well, like that. Like, these are just people genuinely just like me are being exploited for this, which is beauty, you know? And we think things are beautiful. And just having that comparison, I mean, you can look at like such a beautiful dress. Oh, that's awesome.
Nice. And everyone's gonna love it. And a party, right? It's compliments. I just think that's so ridiculously wrong. How that was. I made like, it's just so twisted. If you
could go into like transport yourself to the maker of that guy was and what they were wearing at the time or doing at the time, they're probably not in a
party not wearing
anything that they made.
I don't know if there was like a pitcher or even if the person who made it was standing right beside it, like, yeah. So the way,
and this was said is that they, they are quite also, the makers are quite, um, ignorant is not the word. They're not aware of how we treat what they make. They, they put so much love into it. It seems. And like they think they're doing this great thing and then we just trash it on the other side. And imagine your work, you're the work of your own
hands, which for a lot of the switch shot factors though, in the. In the factories. They don't actually even get to feel that craftsmanship though, because they're doing like, they just have to sew buttons each government, like a production line. Yes, exactly. So you're right in the sense of, for some of the boutiques. So they make something yeah. The smaller spaces, but often they don't even, that was up for me too. I studied business psychology.
And so I'm very passionate about people working heavily and sustainably in the workplace. When I say STEM in terms of. Yeah, they're happy and fills enough that they're able to, you know, and they're not getting that, like there's no fulfillment. There's no. Oh, I was on a good day as well. I can feed my family. It's like, that's just, there's not even basic, you know, toilet breaks or like having a snack.
And what about that argument that, um, you know, cause the argument on the true cost and you see it in a lot of places, particularly around the idea of minimum wage, the idea of. Like, well, if I didn't provide that job, then that'd be
worse off
or, you know, well, we don't need a minimum wage because if someone's willing to do it for $3 an hour, then they should be able to, what do you think of that?
Yeah, that's when I come up a lot, I wrote a thing while back for a platform called ethical, made easy, which is kinda like go to faithful fashion. Um, so I'm trying to remember the exact point, cause it's so complex basically like. That is kind of a good excuse in some situations, in terms of short, it could be working in the six industry.
They could, um, not sure we'll be working at all, but if, and so then people say, so I'm going to continue buying fast fashion because I'm going to support this. Like yeah. If we drive demand and change these, these companies, big gun too, not, not employ them, they're going to play it. And then a better way often is the case.
Um, I realize, I also think we should reduce how much we consume and to be honest, they might need to be a lot of hurt for change, to happen in terms of, um, If people become, you know, I don't know. It's just so complex and I, I'm not sure there to know enough about the nitty gritty behind the scenes. So I'm not going to claim myself as an expert to this question, but. We can't, we can't think like that we have to push back. We have to like push back and boycott.
Then we show that we want them to be, you know, we want to Millie
and to be treated like
totally. And so the minimum wage thing, that's like, that's that all of those arguments just make me understand the people saying them, saying those points back, don't say them like. Yeah.
And like I have the fur trade. It's such an important understanding to have, because that is like Mitchell. What you're saying is no needs less. But making sure that the people that actually like doing the work and making it happen actually are being taken care of. And it's not like, Oh, we're going to buy less. So like, sorry, we can't employ you anymore. And you say, I'm sure that that would happen, like for any big change to happen. That's going to be some
disruption. Yeah.
With things that happen that we didn't even expect, because we don't know enough, but there are like, you know, there's genuinely say someone has the manufactured, their clothes and Southeast Asia somewhere. And then they realized that all the customers are saying. We won't be that we want to know, you know, we want you to have these certifications and stuff. They can push back and translate that back to the manufacturer and they can, you know, be some change that happens there. Um, it is, yeah.
It's gotten into the Smiths cause we've driven the price down so much. That's driven the price down there. So if we are prepared, uh, you know, to. We're prepared to pay the true cost of fashion. That's the point is exactly
that it's not just fashion.
It's,
it's the true costs of any item.
Totally.
And, and who is lobbying for the environment, you know, in the. Yeah. If everyone who was making something out of a natural resource needed to contribute back to that natural resource and that cost was incorporated. Yeah. We would have to consume this because we wouldn't be able to afford it. The things we buy. Yeah. And I think for me, like watching the true cost and realizing. The that in the title and the true costs of almost anything is not, it's not the true cost.
We just pay the bare minimum and everything is driven down. And if we could, if we had to, it could change everything about the way we consume.
I think about how I think, um, people in the Western world expect to spend 3% of their salary on their clothes. And it used to be something like 40% or, you know, cause closer ethics, expensive commodity. And so, um, yeah, that is like only changed in several decades that wasn't hundreds of years ago. Yeah.
Okay. I think that it's time to get to their questions. We're asking everyone. So we're going to go for the first one. So what's, what's one resource that you could, you could recommend
to others. Um, I mentioned it. Who made it easy? It's a good race, but a main one I'm loving recently is, um, the rubbish trip and their guides to each city. I just love in that cause I'm planning on going on to it and me and that will be really, really helpful. They're actually visiting up here next week. So let me same with me from some someday, but yeah. Reading through the guides about where you can get things of laws, area waste so valuable.
Cause you know, all the small towns in New Zealand, no one really has done that before.
Yeah. And that's the work done for you? Right?
Cool. Um, okay.
What is your one go to tip? We're just talking day to day. Okay. Easy thing.
Um, my one go to tip. Is to think before you do something nice. I know that's not like a user of this product, but. If you were, if you think before you do it, often you either a don't need to do it. Like for example, you know, buying something or someone says, Hey, you want this free thing that I'm going out on the street then, you know, you think before you do it, um, I just think, yeah, people would just to just do it. And so when you think before you do it, all of your. Actions and stuff.
Um,
yeah. And like that's part of the waste karaoke night in terms of their refusal. They actually need this like
think, I think that's a great hierarchy on it.
What was the latest, small act of kindness?
Trying to it's that I have done to someone else, right? Yes. Um, yeah. I think it's the little things that I've been trying to do because I've noticed how good I feel when people do them for me. So I find like standing in line for a bus or the bathroom or. At a shop. Um, I'll tell the other person to go in front of me or to let go before me, or, you know, it's just like, I honor you for this moment. And I have, I have time to not like rash and be, you know, like,
right. If you can say someone's rushing
or just no, if it's like what, you know, it's a few extra moments and they can feel. Really good. Strange, done it. They can change the whole director's name today. Yeah. Cause it has changed mine before from someone doing that. So yeah, just looking at like, looking at the scope.
Yeah. Actually it's funny. Like I was just last night. Uh, well it wasn't afternoon. And last night I was working, uh, on road here in Oakland and I. I was going to cross the street. And I noticed this woman that she was just getting out of her car, that it was parked. And I noticed that the lights were still, um, they're in the car and I'm like, I was going to cross and I'm like, uh, like, okay, I'm staying. I don't know, like, Hey, like your lights are on.
And she's like, Oh my God, you saved my day. And I can then, like, the lights were red, so I couldn't cross. I was like, She works for mealtime. Like, you know, like it was worth it.
Yes. It actually, while it's very kind for someone else it's gives you a really nice
it does. Yeah.
Yeah. That's the interesting thing about kindness in what you
do.
Yes, immediately. Okay. Here's the big one. What is one thing that you wish the world knew?
If you could put the
whole world under hypnosis and insert a piece of gold into their life, what would it,
what would it be? It's gotta be a bit different. Um, is something that is on our fridge growing up and it was on your fridge, on our fridge, um, that mum put on the French ground. And the one thing that I remember is you are going to die one day. That's what I'd tell them. It's like, like you're going to die one day. You were here very short amount of time. Your life doesn't actually matter too much in terms of life.
I know that's the opposite of what we've been talking about, but you also like just, you know, What do you have to lose? Like, yeah. So if someone judges that about you or whatever, like you can dominate so live, like you understand that
that's beautiful, very philosophical. I like it. Very spiritual.
And on the flip side of that, the same thing that you mentioned for me, it's like underground to that. Like actually like. I need to live my life.
It's actually, yeah, I have a little,
sorry.
I have a little, um, it's cold business has a slogan. It's like, we're here to live, so let's live it fully, you know, like,
which means like recycle the, recycle the job.
Differently.
And it, the REO is a few really need to
yeah. And then push for some changes so that, so that then the next generations can live even more fully because yeah.
Thank you very much for being here with us. I love talking with you, with a microphone, but most times in the cafe or something, um, where can people find you?
Um, I'm on Instagram a lot. Um, so if it could be Kate. It was me on Instagram. I also have a blog which often people forget about and ask me questions. And I say, just search that on the search section of my book. So dot com is also a really good place. I'm on Facebook too, but yeah, the blog is a good resource. And talk to you on Instagram.
Awesome. Thank you so much for being
here.
Nice to have you
looking forward for the next episodes. We'll see yourself, like stay in, touch on what is your conscious action of the
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