Episode 18 with Nick Morrison - Sustainability and change

But have a few of our events and such a pleasure to be here with you, Nick, to once again, have a little bit of a talk about what's going on in the world and what can we do and taking action and taking conscious action. So, first of all, thank you for being here and for those that don't know you, can you introduce your.

Um, I understand the mess of social and environmental issues we're facing and how they can, um, transition their businesses. And it's becoming Regina sort of circular and inclusive. Um, yeah. And then I'm also a avid football player. I play the football every Sunday for the Marcy LSE diamonds, and I am a recent father. I've just got a new six year old daughter.

Um, I'm a. Uh, son, my mum and dad who live in Christchurch, my brother to my sister and brotherhood live over in London and my other sister, he lives in Wellington. Um, and yeah, there's a few things about me. Yeah.

And I get asked a lot by, um, especially younger people who are at university or just left or early in their careers, sort of wanting to know how. I quote, unquote got into sustainability and I guess, yeah, the way I just kind of, I've tried to really follow my, um, my heart, my gut, my instincts, my passions, I guess. Um, I. Trained as a, um, a fitness trainer or, yeah, I did a sports science degree at a target university. I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was in the last year of school.

I remember that pretty sure. Like, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? What are you gonna be out? Don't go. Um, and then I went to a Tabby university. Um, on a day trip from my, from ice grew up tomorrow. And we went down there as a skull and, um, went to the peace Corps. And I was like, this is amazing.

You know, I had these people, um, filming people, uh, slop, you know, throwing something and analyzing the angles of their joints and how to create more force and, um, how to, um, even just how sprinters start and how they can get more power off the first step. And I was just, I was a real sports junkie and really. Um, and I was like, I want to do that.

And so I was lucky enough to get in there and I did my four years at a donate and absolutely loved it and really loved my degree, um, and came out sort of knowing a lot about anatomy and physiology and how exercise impacts those things. And I then got into, um, being a personal trainer. So I was working at Lee's mills and, um, I worked there for. Oh, six months in Wellington and then moved up to Oakland and was two years here.

Uh, and then I went over to London and I lived over there four and a half years. And, um, half that time I was working in a Pilates studio, trained up on parties over there, and the other half was working for myself and I honed around on my little scooter around London and. Um, wealthy people in their houses or in the park or, um, sometimes they are, um, and their workplaces and yeah, and I did that full time.

Um, and then I traveled and I traveled a lot while I was in, um, London, especially so west Europe, and then I went to. Uh, for the football world cup, um, I never got quite got to Argentina. Um, I'm sorry. I would love to go there. I will go there one day, but I went to Brazil for the football world cup and then had another five months after that going through central and south America.

And it was such a, uh, Impact on me, I guess it's just seeing the, the, the pollution and seeing the inequality really like hit me, um, that, uh, I'll never forget the day I was on this, um, um, visiting the sandblast islands, which between Columbia and Panama and you can drive there and a few hours, but you can also do these boat trips and your backpackers. And you've got all the time in the world and you take a few nights and you start off.

Islands and one-on-one and protect your small little saying, oh, it took you 20 minutes to walk around at one side of it where we landed beautiful white sand, beautiful Palm trees, coconuts on the grounds that you can crack open and clear blue water lights, stunning walk up and over this island, just a small headlight down to the side. It was just plastic strung all over the other side. And just by heart.

Sunk. And I, um, I had a few experiences like that through central and south America because they just don't have the, um, infrastructure we have here in New Zealand. And then as I was used to in London, et cetera, which collect the plastics and the, the trash and take it away somewhere else over there, they literally just throw it on the ground or what was, what was actually happening we found out was that.

That a community that lives, I forget the name of the people now, which is really bad, but there's a, there's a, uh, native people that live on the sandblast islands and they I'm so used to, you know, just eating fish and coconuts and then just throwing those into the ocean. And that would feed the OCA ecosystem and carry on, on the circle of life. Well that now being used the word infiltrated by.

Food conglomerates, you know, you know, you'd miss lays and co and I just had all these plastic package food now. And they had like a little tuck shop there that you garden and people buy all the stuff and they'd still just throw it on the ground. They'd, hadn't changed their behaviors. And I just would change throw this place there on the ground. And they'd ring this big bell. I rang it while we were there visiting.

These women of the village have come through, pick it up and go and check it on the oceans. I remember when we were, um, before we left Columbia with the I of the tiny little seat side town that you leave from, but we caught the boat from Dave. Waste management, um, infrastructure, just involved putting it into sex and they were loading up this boat and they'd put bricks in the bottom and a drive out.

I don't know how long, 10 minutes, 20 minutes out, straight into the ocean and then just drop it off the side of the boat. And so just seeing those things and kind of learning those things was really, um, confronting. And then also, yeah, that inequality is like, you see, like I said, I haven't been to Argentina, but what I saw in Brazil, especially like in Rio de Janeiro, Wow. You've got incredible wealth and then just complete. Poverty, you know, right side by side.

It was so like you see it right in front of you, both, both extremes and yeah. So I guess had all that experience traveling and came back to New Zealand, just feeling like helping, you know, um, wealthy Housewives skit. Um, it wasn't really my passion anymore, or wasn't really helping the world. And it wasn't really using my skills and my privilege to give back and to help the world become a better place. Really. And so I took the opportunity to work at innocent packaging.

I got offered a job there by Tony small when he, um, I think the business was a year old. Offered me a job. So it's young startup business and it was it's awful packaging. I was, oh, no, it's the, it's the solution to the world's problems, um, quite nicely. But, um, and I took my job as a, as a sales job there and quickly moved into being the sustainability, um, person there and eventually became the sustainability manager. Um, and just, that was my door and to sustainability, I guess.

And I just loved that. It was. Solutions focused having, I guess, traveled and seen all these problems and seen all this stuff and being quite confronted by that. And then now working in a, an a, an, a business that was part of trying to create solutions. I just really loved that. And so, yeah, and I was there two and a half years, and then, um, it was to find, to, um, to go and do my own thing again. And I thought I had enough knowledge to. Help other businesses with their sustainability.

And so I left and started up, oh, well consulting and there'll be three years old and November. So that's kind of how I got into sustainability. It's an incredible

Yeah. Checking going to McDonald's or burger king or whatever, and eating in the car and then just throwing it up that we didn't know better. Like that was the thing is like, that's just what you do. And that's one of the interesting things and to be able to come to an understanding and to be able to. Actually create some kind of that, like, to be able to say your experience like, wow, that's quite a huge impact.

I need to perhaps focus on in that direction and create the change that I want to see. And this is something that, that I find, um, with the work that you do, that it's so important because there is a huge lack of education.

No, a lot of times what we do with the country section, we focus mostly on individuals and you focus on businesses, have a huge lack of education in terms of what is right and what is wrong and what they are doing, because also the parameters are set up by policies or government. And as long as they are going within that, they think that they are doing the right thing. And sometimes that's not the right.

Um, and having people that can educate and has the knowledge has not only the knowledge of saying this might not be the best thing to do. Also, we can do that and not just saying you're doing wrong

I, I feel that it's just so obvious. We can't keep repeating. Resources out of the crown, we can't keep destroying our soils. We can't keep polluting our oceans. We can't keep, you know, killing off species. Um, so it was just obviously not sustainable, but those businesses at somewhat. Tied to that existing, um, yeah. System and then the economic system.

And so, yeah, changing it is hard and, and we cause we mostly work with, um, you know, small to medium enterprises and SMEs and they, I so often, um, People who get it and, you know, cause I think the key thing I'll actually stress too, is businesses are made up of people, human beings. So yeah, like conscious action.

Sure. You might target the kind of the individual, but it could be the CEO of that business that decides whether to, you know, use, I don't know, option a option B and, and you know, one being Fastly better for the environment than the other. Um, and so it's really important to urinate. These are human beings making these decisions.

I think often they hide behind being a business when it's really, they need to, I think take responsibility for their personal actions in their role as a business person, just as much as in their personal life, I guess. But, um, yeah.

To go back to my point about businesses, sort of being in a tough position at times, because they are up against competitors again, in the system we've got, it's all about having competitors and you try and undercut the other one, you try and steal their, um, business, you try and compete with them on and on. And so they're trying to deal with that. And then there's these massive issues coming at them around climate change and soil loss and ocean certification, all these things.

And a lot of them don't. I understand it's all quite overwhelming. Um, and they're still trying to make sure that they've got. Revenue coming into their business and profit to pay their staff and keep people in their jobs and do all these things. So there's, there is a lot going on for these business people and it is challenging, but I, I love working in that space and, and being just really honest and, and matter of fact about. Issues with facing like it's so in our face. Um, and okay.

Yep. Totally understand that. You've got to make a buck and your business has got to be able to keep paying its people, but also we're, careering towards absolute, um, environmental and social breakdown. Like what are we going to do? This is not sustainable. So it's really, um, uh, Uh, really great place. I enjoy working in this space. It's very, um, it calls on a lot of different skills I think. And, um, it's quite, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?

Just tests you on quite a few different levels, watching which I've I enjoy.

Um, and I found that a lot of times the event at that time when it was called beyond sustainability, just because of that, like, what does sustainability mean and how do you communicate.

So if something can be sustained for a sort of human lifetime, you know, you can keep feeding, uh, a population for a length of human lifetime. Um, you know, the can sustain a, um, a population of fish for a human lifetime next kind of. Um, kind of timeline and that's being able to sustain something. And so that's sustainable for me.

That's the definition of sustainable and the sustainability is more the, um, industry, I guess, or it's more the, um, topic of making things sustainable and it covers. Um, a lot, but it's generally broken up into sort of three, sometimes four pillars of economic sustainability, social sustainability, and environmental sustainability.

And sometimes it's cultural sustainability, sometimes there's other ones as well, but generally those kind of three and, um, yeah, you know, we, we, we don't have, uh, we don't have life on this planet without the planet, without environment, without a water cycles and our carbon cycles, et cetera. And then we don't have. Um, economy without society and without people, I'm sorry. It's just really remembering that the economy is the last of those three in terms of importance.

Um, so yeah, sustainability is kind of looking and understanding across all those three pillars and, um, And putting it into a business context, that's that business, making sure that it is being sustainable across those three things.

So is it looking after it supply chain, people are going to keep working, you know, or are you exploiting people and they're going, you know, getting paid such low wage that they, uh, you know, have punch a tie one day and then they can't get to work and they lose their job and they're gone. Um, is your.

That's, you know, um, just taking so many resources out of the planet that it's going to destroy that local ecosystem, um, as your business, you know, just trying to make a quick buck and then disappear, or are you trying to be sustain your economic? Um, Impacts as well. So yeah, that's kind of me trying to explain what sustainability is. Yeah. And that,

We actually need to actually do something positive. Uh, and I thought that that was an interesting thing. I would love for you to, to explain a little bit, how do you see this in your experience and then with the businesses that you work? Not only the regeneration, but the circular modern stuff

Then it decay. And something else grows, you know, there is no such thing as waste waste is this made up human phenomenon, phenomenon. Um, waste is food in the real world. Um, it's just materials moving through a system. So that's how those are the laws of, of the real world. And, and they've been discovered and proven over the last, you know, few thousand years of human existence. Um, We can't change those, but the economic system and our societal laws, we create those and we can change those.

So it's really only one thing that we can do here in terms of, um, making things fit together. So we have to change how we run our businesses. We have to change our economic laws. We have to change the economic system that it becomes circular. Um, otherwise it's just. Bloody obvious kind of run out of, um, run out of resources and we're going to pollute ourselves into, um, a really bad state and et cetera, et cetera.

Like I said, one of the status, just not sustainable, um, this current linear extractive model. So we have to go circular. Yeah, I totally agree with the woman you spoke with, um, that sustainable. It's not enough now. Like it's, it's hard.

I think for a lot of people to kind of keep up to speed with desk, but the state of the world, and especially that the natural systems that govern how the world works and the, and the weather systems on our planet in such a bad way that it's not just about sustaining. Uh, for now we have to regenerate. We have to repair all the damage that's being done.

And, you know, looking at just, um, climate change, for example, the carbon we're putting up in atmosphere today, the car that people drove today, or the, you know, the, the, the stuff they ordered online and it got driven to them and that car, and there was a massive is going up to the atmosphere. It's going to stay up there for hundreds, if not thousands of years. And we're just putting more and more carbon up there. So if we were just to suddenly turn off all carbon.

Being invested into the world today, it's still going to heat up and he's up and he's up because it's all up there. That's trapped up there for hundreds of thousands a year. So we need to get that carbon out here. So you're going to turn off the tap and stop putting it up there, which has been pretty, doing really, really challenging, but also then got to get it out of there to bring it low levels of CO2 back down to a level that we can.

You have and have weather and have climate that are, uh, you know, conflicts beings like humans can survive and, and, um, and be, uh, yeah, so absolutely we have to go circular being circular really is what being sustainable is in my eyes. And we have to be regenerative. We have to give back more than we take, basically. And that's the reality of. Uh, generation and now time and human history, we, um, yeah, that's what we've inherited. We can audit it and deal with it.

And that's like I was saying before, I really liked just being that honesty about it and having those conversations with businesses and business people, or we can choose to ignore it. And, um, I dunno, just party hard while it lasts and the next generation deal with it.

As you said before that now you can't not see that we are in the level of a problem and we need to do stuff. But I do think that there is in sight of that. And as you said, like when businesses, especially, but also this will individuals, when money comes from. And numbered finance financial wellbeing comes first with time to not look too much too. I'm actually not doing the right thing. And for businesses, this is huge.

And one of the things that I wanted to touch on now and ask you how you experienced this is greenwashing. Yeah. So how do you see this? Like, I see a lot of it and, and I, um, I, I'm still all the time learning, but I'm quite educated in this space. And sometimes I still find myself like, oh my God, I didn't catch that. How do you

So people want to do the right thing, but there is so much misinformation and people are so confused and, um, that's, that's really frustrating. And I, a lot of it does come from businesses just. Taking responsibility as a business or as human beings. Remember, it's a human being, making that decision to put that word degradable on a plastic bag, which I just saw one where I love my neighbors, got a plastic black plastic bag on the carport, and it's got big white degradable.

And just for anyone who is unsure, I was listening to everything. It's degradable, right? It we'll just means we'll break down into smaller parts. Right? So everything humans are degradable rockers, degradable piece of steel is degradable, but they all just degrade over different amounts of time.

So that's real green washing, but there are also businesses out there and business people who don't know they're greenwashing and get, get confused, and they're trying to do the right thing and it is complex. And a good example of green washing is around the whole compostable packaging. Um, So if it's all about a kind of the context and the compostable package, well, especially, I think it's important here.

Quickly side point to separate compostable packaging and compostable plastics because compostable packaging includes your wheat straw or your, your sugar cane. It could be paper, could, all of that's fine. All of that compost. No worries. It's the compostable plastics that require the higher heats around 65 degrees to then start the process of, um, bio degrading and then breaking back down into carbon nitrogen water. Um, and.

That is so that needs to go to that facility so that the plastics that are out there that are commercially compostable, yes, they are commercially compostable and use it does break back down and continue on the circle of life, but will they actually get to a compost, you know? And that's where kind of getting to, I guess, the role of business and where I think. Business people traditionally have just said, oh, my job is just to put the product into the market.

And that said, that's not my role to deal with where it ends its life. Um, but I think that's changing and, and you know, very much that the principles we teach throughout or practice with our clients is that, no, you, you need to take responsibility for the whole thing. And we've just seen that big announcement by the government, um, of the six, um, Products or material types that have got ahead of mandatory product stewardship schemes. It's huge.

It's a real, um, plug for, um, I'm going to do the political here by real time for the greens. So, um, talked about doing this pre this term and they finally got the sun just before the term ends, but it's a massive shift and you'll see a real, um, explosion of, um, of businesses taking responsibility for their products. Um, because. Don't seem to understand that we're taking responsibility for them through our Texas and throughout, um, uh, um, you know, local, Texas as well.

What's the worst paying your rates. We pay rates to get rubbish and that collected. So the businesses who are creating the rubbish and know where it's going to go, they don't have to take any responsibility for it. We then pay council to then pay a big waste management company to pick it up and go and dump it in the whole. It's all kind of a broken system. Sorry, I've gone a bit off topic here.

Come back to the green washing, but yeah, green washing, I think in summary, there's definitely businesses that are totally negligent and knowingly mislead. The, the public and their customers, but there's also businesses who are just not quite getting it right. And accidentally greenwashing, but they both, in the end of the day, you have the same impact, right. They create a confused, um, public.

And if confused, um, human being who doesn't quite know what, if they're doing the right thing or not, when they, when they want to be doing the right. Yeah, but,

Hey, like, do you know that this you're saying that this product is actually combustible when it's not, or whatever it is, and being able to actually communicate and they would be open to making it.

Um, people, especially younger people, I think, uh, we're more aware, more connected because of we've grown up internet us, including myself. There's a younger people, but I think that they are asking these questions and we are seeing it. And then definitely with the clients that we work with. That those businesses are getting a lot of pressure.

And also, I think the other key thing there to say is as social media, the impact of social media, that you can literally just take a photo right then and there of your burger or of your car, everything or whatever you've just bought and put it up and take that business and app and say, you know, shame on you or this is great or whatever, and that can go. Across millions of people very rapidly. So businesses have to respond pretty quickly.

And, um, yeah, I think people are starting to become more and more educated, more and more aware to the greenwashing or tool that to, to the. Yeah.. And

For me, and this is just my understanding, and I'm not an expert in this and perhaps, you know, a little bit more than me on this when we are upsetting, we're not really upset, upsetting. We are still creating all of that carbon, none of that impact and whatever we are upset with, that's going to take a long time to actually offset.

Not going to be perfectly, we Missy, along the way, but I'm definitely of the attitude of like, you know, progress, not perfection and don't, or don't let being perfect in the way of being better, you know, same kind of concept. Really. So yeah. Carbon offsetting specifically. Definitely. There's the businesses who just pay to pollute, right?

Oh, well, we can afford to just pay some, um, carbon offsets and we don't really change anything going to business and we just keep pumping out carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. Um, but there's also those that are trying really hard to minimize their emissions as much as possible. And so, um, What the New Zealand and there's two major, um, carbon offsetting organizations, ECOS and Twitter, and they both, um, Required the members to go through a process of how to minimize the emissions.

So they help them map it and work out what these carbon footprint is. And then they say, right, okay. Now you need to tell us how you're going to bring that down. Um, so for example, one of our clients, maybe Maryland, who we've worked through with, with the toys, um, folk and they have now committed to, um, pretty much go to zero reluctant to say that cause things can happen, but pretty much go to zero. Yeah, right. They've been, um, if writing a lot in the past, but now see freighting things.

So that's a much smaller carbon footprint per garment or per you know, more of the stuff they bring in. So the materials they bring in, um, It was from doing it by ear freight. And so yeah, those organizations like toys, for example, will say, great. Yep. You've got your map footprint now, but before you start off sitting at, you need to show us how you're going to minimize.

So in New Zealand, those two organizations that are doing a great job, I think really making sure businesses don't just in pay to the loop, but it's always open to a level of. Interpretation really. And, um, a spectrum of your own, um, I don't know, expectations or morals or whatever around how far businesses should go, but it would get eventually we'll get to a point where they kind of add, matches up and they go, okay, we've tried all this stuff and we literally can't do anything more.

Um, we'll now pay to offset. Um, whereas others might just go, ah, automatic, we'll get a bike and we'll get a couple of people in the office bike, and then we'll start off sitting, you know? So. All these things are open to exploitation, but, um, I think that carbon offsetting is, has a really important role to play in, especially if we start increasing the cost of it and putting more tax on it because we've got to stop putting it into the atmosphere.

It's really bloody simple and really obvious, but, um, Yeah, so a carbon offsetting type system, it does get businesses thinking about, they're thinking about how to bring the emissions down and it is putting money into the building of forests or the, um, you know, innovation of new cooking technology that doesn't use, um, firewalls and stared users. Um, I don't know, solar powers or whatever. So. Yeah, it does. It's not perfect. Absolutely. But I think it's it's progress.

I think it's, it's going the right way. And I think here in New Zealand, we've got, um, yeah, good organizations that are, um, not allowing too much exploitation or the system.

There's so many businesses that are selling products that are not essential at all. And I thought, you know, like, oh, I wonder how is this going to impact the businesses that are reading stuff, but also how fascinating back the championship.

So yeah, there's a lot of businesses out there that I think really need to reconsider what they're actually producing. Um, but also then you're getting into, um, the actual business models. So a lot of rent when we talk about, um, secret economy and secret economy principles, we talk about rather than ownership. So again, that economic system we've, we've gotten the laws that we've. Inheritance all about ownership, right?

And we told about, you want to own something and you work hard and you get money. Then you own your own car. You own your own house, you own your own clothes and it's all new. And it's all about being bigger and better than the person beside you generally. But circular, if we're going to go sick and we need to look at sharing models and the classic one is that is the scooters that we, um, that we see on our streets now. So it is one scooter and we share it.

We come on and we use it for the five, 10 minutes that we want to use that. And then we leave it in someone else. All at a great example of like the, uh, tool libraries, right? We do books, we've done books. So ever, why would we not have libraries for tools, right. Why buy a drill to hang up a picture or whatever you're doing when you can just go and hire it out of a, out of a library or loan it out of a library. Um, and then also. Leasing models.

So businesses actually maintain the ownership of the product. So for, it might be clothing, you buy a jacket and rather than actually buying it, you just lease it for whatever price it has per week or per month. And you have it. And then when you're finished with it, you send it back to them. And the business keeps owners. The product and the materials, so that I'd have to get new materials and they might stitch it up and fix a few things.

Am I going to steam clean or wash or whatever, then I put it back out again. So there's these, um, new business models that, um, that we try and, and, and, um, explain to our clients and get our clients to sort of shift to, um, I've gone off tangent a bit. And again, Brian, forgot the start of your question

Pre COVID. When I say we it's going to the people yourself and I, and other, you know, sustainability consultants and people in the space of sort of saying, Hey, this system is not sustainable. It needs to change. Um, and I think. People and a lot of businesses and business people are more receptive to it now, and it might be coming from more of a financial, um, motivation for them. But Hey, we'll just take that.

If we've got their attention and they're listening and they're open to these new ideas that will. You know, decrease the environmental impact, hopefully make it regenerative, um, massively increase the positive social impacts and save them money, make them more profit, you know, then they're really like, oh, okay. 1, 1, 1, 1, 1. Um, so yeah, I am finding that, um, uh, I laugh when he was at post COVID.

We're taught still totally in COVID rights that post lockdown, um, people, uh, and business businesses differently, more. Receptive to, um, suit killer principles and sustainability, um, as a whole. Yeah, definitely.

And I do think that we, we are this time for me, like on a lot of different levels, um, with all of its challenges there, um, problems that it brought, it is the shift that we knew it was something, as I said, like, okay, now what we've been talking about for a long time now it's like, okay, now we'll have that motivation with. And we have the, the wheels to actually create the change. And I think this is why it's a very exciting time, and this is why I love when.

I'm talking to you a definite fact that you're focused on, on solutions and yes, it's like, yes, let's talk about the problem because we need to understand this, but of them, the solution and the direction that we can go and how to do understand that you said before that every step in the right direction

And we could do away with all this inequality and we could do away with all this stress about the climate and where our food is going to come from, et cetera, et cetera. But a lot of. See ya. And it's, it's something I have to keep reminding myself. And I think someone like you as well, who gets it and can visualize that we have to keep reminding ourselves that a lot of people don't see that, right.

A lot of people are literally just getting through their day, uh, just trying to pay the bills, um, or even not necessarily people struggling, people who are doing really well. And, and just, so this is great. I've got a low need and, and they're just not thinking outside their own space that are the world very much kind of revolves around them. And they're not thinking about. The next 20, 50, a hundred years. And, um, that's yeah, it's important. I think to remember that.

And so we just really need to engage with those people to make them understand how much better it will be, because coming back a bit to your question about what is sustainability and other thing I say is sustainability is fundamentally about, um, change management. So we need people to change. We need societies to change. We need businesses and economies and politicians and everything to change quite quickly. We've lifted.

So. Because of various reasons, but that we have to change really quickly and it's really hard and it's hard for people to change habits and change these things. And you just look at the classic, the whole plastic bag thing and changing the habit to going without a bag to remembering to take one with you.

But people got there, but if you say don't get your bag and then Donny mate, and then don't eat dairy and then donate this, or don't buy your luxury bicycle clothes, or don't buy from the, or tickets for your trade or tickets. Organic it's just becomes so much for people. Right. And so, yeah, we just have to remember that we're asking people to make some big changes and.

Humans, I guess this goes back a little bit from my time as a fitness trainer, you know, it's hard to get people to change their behaviors, even if it's for their own health and wellbeing, even if they so desperately want to have a six pack and feel really fed or whatever, it was really hard to get them to. Changes to themselves to then get those results. And so, yeah, we've got to kind of remember that and I'm much bigger macro societal level. And, um, yeah.

So what I'm trying to say is the importance of talking positive in talking solutions and talking about how great things will be really helps get people into that rather than kind of being like, oh, what's the point? It's all screwed up. You know, that. Really trying to go down that path.

Um, and so many people, I think again, Space of people who are wanting to do the right thing and who are trying hard and they might be, you know, got a bike and they might be buying secondhand clothes and they might be eating less meat, but. That'll be power piling and comparison to the impact that their, their investments could be having.

And they more than likely have their KiwiSaver invested in fossil fuels or, um, agri chemicals or all these things that aren't so much backwards work and, um, and, and really holding us back. So I hired. Um, plead with people to guide, to mindful money and check where your investments are and change your you're own business. Especially a KiwiSaver to, um, to a provider that is not investing in fossil fuels, not investing and making guns for people, ran them out anyway, but it's just on that.

It's up to your morals to, so we've all got our own morals, but, um, and effects. But when you go into mindful money at we'll let you choose what's your priorities and whatnot. I don't like it at home, thinking that you have to give up returns to create, um, positive environmental, social effects are so old thinking.

If you're still thinking that you are so behind the times with so much research out there, especially post or not post COVID, but especially during COVID and that road drop that we saw, it's all coming back and we're seeing that ethical investments and the environmentally conscious investments are doing so much better. So, um, it makes so much sense for your own. Financial wellbeing and the wellbeing of your community and the environment to, um, check that out. So yeah. Mindful, mindful money.

Like I've got an old thing paired off to get the Mickey taken out of me when I take it to work meetings or whatever, buy this old laptop, um, buy bought a secondhand three years ago and it's still going strong. And, um, yes, it's bigger and clunkier than these flesh Mapbox or like, The nice little thing, pans or whatever come out, but I don't need those, all those accessories. I don't. So this, yeah, the secondhand thing, all my clothes I had on, I stress out so much buying new clothes.

Really hard to buy a secondhand shore now. And again, I might buy something new, but, um, yeah, by, by secondhand,

And, um, he's 11 years old now. And, um, so it's, it's for fatherless boys. And so for whatever reason, they've not got a father in their life. And, um, I've been mentoring him for that. Yeah. I months ended last every Sunday, pretty much every Sunday, I meet up with them and hang, hanging out, hanging out with them for, you know, a couple of hours, sometimes five or six hours, depending on what's going on. Um, and you know, last weekend we went fishing, we went fishing.

I was so keen to go fishing. So we went, we drove all the way out there and then. Got the tide, this got the fishing rod and to go the splinter put on a base and then the hook just fell off. Like I had to quickly get out my phone and learn how to tie a knot to keep a hook on your line and did all that. And then, uh, trudged out to the, uh, to the water and we threw the line out and it got snagged and then it got cool. And, uh, it was, uh, that was, uh, that was our fishing experience.

Um, and then we bought an ice cream. He was happy with his ice cream and. But, yeah,

And everyone just feels really great and be kind like, it's just a great thing for everyone. Um, I'm not squats.

So, um, yeah, I think that's the one thing I wish the world we knew we can change. Economic laws and our societal laws. We cannot change the laws of the real world and the laws of the universe. Yeah.

And, um, we'd be really love, love to chat and help you, um, on that journey. That's um, that's what we do. So, um, yeah.

Is one of the things that I find, um, so good in your website for some black just showcasing the brands that you're working with, actually being part of the solution and not being the best that they can. And I think that. All of these brands, this sort of a shout out on the server to be celebrated because they aren't doing the right thing. So yeah, definitely. Uh, thank you so much, Nick, for taking the time to disfigure me once more and congratulations on your, on your baby girl.

Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here for sharing your journey and your expertise and for everyone that's listening. Uh, I would love to know what have you learned from this episode? If you have any comments or questions. Send them in, uh, I will put the link for the, um, the Facebook, Instagram and the website that Nick just mentioned so that you can check it out and we'll see you on the next episode.