Episode 117 with Jonathan McLernon - Openness & connection to create changes

We are here to raise awareness and inspire meaningful action by sharing stories, knowledge and conversations with thought leaders and change makers from sustainability to wellbeing and everything related to conscious living. Our mission is to empower you to be the change that you want to see in the world. Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Conscious Action Podcast.

I am Brian Berneman, your host, and for this episode, I have the pleasure to be showing all the way from Canada, even though I can see the really nice beach background behind you, Jonathan, uh, you're in Canada. I don't think that's the weather there.

I'm , I'm a nutrition coach, which, uh, and I focus on behavioral psychology and, uh, but I've had a really crazy backstory. I've been an nanotech researcher. I've been a power line technician, a marine engineer in the navy. Uh, globe trotting English teacher. I ran a nutrition supplement store. So there's a whole sort of eclectic collection of things I've done in my past.

And I, I think it probably stems from, I, I just have a very independent entrepreneurial type spirit and I just couldn't stay in one thing for very long before I felt the need to try and go do something else until it came to coaching and mentorship where I really think I found my

Yeah, and it's really interesting, uh, as you were just sharing about yourself, we have all of these different aspects of ourselves, things that we have done, things that we're doing, things that perhaps as you're saying, To pay the bills, like I did that And there's all of these different aspects, and for me, the interesting thing with that a lot of times is how do we define ourselves for ourselves and for others? Like what's, yeah, what's the imprint that we are putting energetically into?

Any room that we're walking into was, you know, the, the way that through different words. People are going to perceive us. And, and to be able to, to understand that, I think it's so interesting.

But being empathic means that obviously I'm quite in tune with other people's emotions and energies, and I feel things very deeply. and, uh, you know, it was, it was quite liberating when I came to the place where I realized that these emotions didn't diminish me as, as a masculine figure. I, I mean, I love being male. I love, I love the feeling of being, you know, kind of a protector and a provider and a father and a husband.

Like I really enjoy those masculine roles, but I'm also just a very kindhearted empath who wants to create positive change in the world. And, um, you know, that's it, it, it no longer, I longer feels as though this somehow diminishes who I am as a man by being this, this gentle caring.

But before we, we get into that, Would you mind sharing Jonathan, a little bit around your, uh, your journey and, and what led you to actually be doing what you're doing now, especially around these topics that, that you're working on sharing now?

The men that did this, the men that attacked me, they, they didn't seem to have any qualms about the fact that they were doing this. And, uh, you know, I, I've done the work to move past that experience, but it was many, many years of work. So the follow up from that was really, I suffered from P T S D. I suffered from anxiety and depression. Uh, I became a binge eating food addict and I gained over 120 pounds.

Like, and I didn't, didn't recognize who I was and I didn't know what was happening in my head. And I had, I really had no idea how to deal with this. So for, for many years, food became my, my source of escape. Because I also really struggled to process emotions, but after going through something traumatic, there's a lot of big emotions, overwhelming emotions, and it's like it gets harder and harder to bury them and hide them.

And, and, uh, so then it would, it manifested in anxiety and panic episodes, which I, I look back and I view those as kind of like my nervous system, pulling the fire alarm, saying, this needs your attention urgently. And it was, you know, I remember about 2017, a doctor, he said to. You know, there's no pill that fixes this. You have to change how you're living. , and that was kind of the start of maybe a different relationship with myself and with my body.

And it was a couple months after the doctor shared this that I ended up hiring a coach who I still thought I was hiring him because I wanted to lose weight and look like him. He had a really, you know, impressive physique. So I thought that's, that's what's gonna make me happy. It's to look like him. And maybe I'll stop hating myself. And instead, he worked with me in a very empathic way.

So he worked with me, modeled compassion, taught me self-compassion, and we really explored a lot of conversations around self-love and self-compassion and what does that mean? And even being comfortable with these co um, concepts because I realized, of course, looking back, I'd never had conversations with some or, or if I'd had any conversations. Self-love as a man.

It was probably joking or it was probably derogatory like it because we were uncomfortable as masculine figures with this idea of what, what does self-love mean or look like? Um, so that really altered sort of my course and I had now go on this kind of journey of discovery. Well, who am I? You know, I tried to, I was motorcycle racing, power lifting, heavy metal listening, pre-workout, snorting, you know, adrenaline junkie kind of thing.

But it was all of this sort of almost hyper-masculine behavior to compensate because I, I wasn't comfortable with who I was or who I am, I should say, being male. It's, um,

Of, of trauma, uh, informed practices that trauma is not only just the episode that happened, but how you're being able to process it and how you're being able to actually, um, integrated and heal from it afterwards. Whether that is by sharing it, by understanding it, by being able to communicate it, by seeing it from different lenses, and a lot of times. Most of us grew up without the tools to be able to, to do that.

And therefore we end up going to different coping mechanisms depending on our own, um, orientation or our family and cultural orientation. We end up going to one or another. And I, I was talking to one of my students from university, uh, yesterday and during one of the classes afterwards, um, And she was telling me about her relationship with food as well. Like that's her coping mechanism. Yeah, . Um, so this, this class I was touching on the topic of trauma and it was the first time that she's.

Put two and two together. The fact that most likely her coping mechanism of how much she's eating is actually based on trying to push down these feelings that she doesn't want to look and. So I, I was telling her, and of course what, there's a lot of work that we need to do now, but I was telling her about that. Okay. Like, let's slowly start to look what you were saying, like being more compassionate and modeling Yeah.

That compassion so that she's able to, to not rely so much on that food from an emotional perspective. Yeah. And start to look into that trauma, into those feelings, starting to integrate them and then the relationship with the food will change by itself.

And I started to make peace with the emotions I felt. I started to try and develop a bit of emotional resilience, become comfortable with the difficult emotions that I was feeling, and, uh, it was an entirely different process than I thought I would be going through. Um, but it's, it's almost like we, we come to this place. I think I was in this place of conscious incompetence. I was just aware that there was a gap.

So I had tried, for example, I had tried dieting, I had tried certain training regimens and working out and, and all these different methodologies, lots of supplements and, and I could never seem to really achieve any sort of permanent results because I really wasn't addressing what truly needed to be addressed within myself and within the human condition. Mm-hmm.

. It took somebody else making me aware that this was the shortcoming that I was dealing with in order for me to actually make peace with, with all of this and be able to move on with my life and now be doing what I what I am doing.

And yes, and you know, like, and, and I didn't care so much from that standpoint, but I went to get a blood test and my doctor told me that my cholesterol level was like really off the charts, um, and my sugar levels as well. And he said that that's from like from my family, like dad that comes synthetic genetic practitioner. Genetic, yeah. And I was like, oh, okay, so this is not good. What do I do? . And then my, I went to my, my doctor that she's a nutritionist and she's quite holistic.

And she told me, okay, let's not go into any diets. Let's actually look into certain different things to organize your habits around food now that you are not doing all of this exercise. And I literally changed five things. It wasn't like a hard diet or anything. It was to lower my cholesterol level and, and that was the main thing. And the, in two weeks, not only I had dropped completely all of my levels. I lost 15 kilos, which I wasn't looking to lose them. Yes. But I lost 15 kilos.

My body, like change shape, which is my shape now. Um, and, and it was incredible for me how that change was so important. Even more than like the dieting. and that was key. Yeah. In, in being able to, to see all of that. And I wonder, um, Shan, going back to what you shared earlier. Around, uh, the masculine and around. Yeah. Being modeled what masculinity means or being a male actually right. Means. Yeah. What was your understanding of what was being a man?

He only knew how to criticize. So my dad really didn't understand what this looked like because it hadn't been modeled for him. He knew that there was a lack in his life and he wanted to do better, but you know, there's only so much that can be done to sort of bridge that gap. And so I really saw him as like a strong, maybe stoic kind of figure.

Um, like he wa it wasn't that he was unloving, but there was, he just struggled to show it and express it and, uh, So I, I look at that and, and I never saw many emotions out of him other than anger occasionally at like, laughter. Um, and so that's sort of what I learned it to be was, you know, men don't show emotions. We're strong in the face. Struggle. Um, we need to be sort of this way, protectors, providers, that sort of thing.

And, and I don't see a problem with sort of these aspects other than sort of being uncomfortable with having emotions. But I imagine when he was a kid and had emotions, he was probably cuffed across the side of the head. And so that pattern kind of gets passed down. In, in my understanding really that, that that sort of shape and then really society sort of had similar sort of things. Hey boys don't cry if you experience this, if you cry in your mail, like that's a problem.

. And so I just kind of learned to hide my emotions because I saw how I would be received. I would be seen as being weak or whatever, even though I'm like quite a large man, physically. Mm-hmm. , I would be seen as somehow being weak if I'd had these emotions. So I learned how to hide them. And so it's, it's interesting, it took me into all my late thirties before I really started to understand that it's possible to be a man and to be masculine.

Not, uh, shy away or hide from the emotions that I feel.

It wasn't completely different when I was a little kid, but he, he was much more open. Um, yeah. And yes, I don't remember really when I was a kid seeing him cry or, or a few different things like that. But, He was much more open and, and we were encouraged all of the time, you know, like to, to sh like to express our emotions. And one of my things involving up was, and I, I, I was all of the time saying, I'm always like, I'm my, I'm doing well, I'm doing well.

And my parents, both of them would tell me, You're just swallowing down your emotions, like allow them, right, right. And I'm like, no, I'm not doing that. And it wasn't until I was a teenager that I learned how to feel my feelings. And I was like, oh yes, that's what I was doing. I was right. Yeah. I was pushing down all of these feelings because I didn't want to see them.

In that moment, I didn't know anything different and, and I think that in this past, especially this past five years, I've been seeing how in society in general, there's this shift of what. Does masculinity mean? What is the role of men that, which masculinity and men are not the same thing? Um, yes. What's the role of women? What's the role of feminism and, and what does being a female and male. Actually men and how do we integrate the masculine aspects of us and the feminine aspects of us.

Mm-hmm. in our own being, and I know this, like for myself, I spend so much time working on this that for a lot of people I actually, I bring a lot more of that feminine side than the masculine side just because of my approach to certain things. And not every, like, I think as, as you're saying, like if we haven't learned that, if we will model something different, we don't know that that's, that's possible. So, mm. Right.

Yeah. How, how was it for you to be able to, to create this change and to be able to integrate this different way?

He was still able to be sort of a strong, capable man. And, and, uh, I think I, I needed to see something like that to go, this is okay, this is safe. And it was kind of a, you know, now I'm just, I'm comfortable with who I am. I don't , I don't feel any need to, to hold back or, or hide it, but I kind of, I needed to see that. And I think maybe that's how our brains work in a sense. Being vulnerable, you know, biologically it represents a risk.

And so our primal brain is really trying to protect us from being exposed like this. And I think this is why coaching is one of the reasons why coaching is still a thing in the age of information that we really need to be connected to another human being who essentially has our back. where it's, it's safe to be vulnerable, it's safe to go through the process of change and transformation. And we need this, I think collectively as human beings, we need a connection to other people who have us.

And, and we get to fill that role sometimes too. And it's like, this is the role that I fill as a coach very often for people is I'm the one that, uh, you know, metaphorically has their back. I'm there to protect them and, and whatnot to allow them to be vulnerable in the process of change and transformation. . Brian Berneman: Mm, definitely.

And, and you know, like me, having been in both roles of like someone with a mentor and a coach and, and also, uh, being a guide or a coach, the, the importance of connection and the importance of creating a container that is a safe space. Because a lot of times, of course, depending on our life, uh, experiences, there's some deep stuff that yeah can happen. So someone that doesn't feel safe, It's not going to open up, it's not going to share. It's not going to be vulnerable.

Yes. Because absolutely as you're saying, like, we don't feel safe. So it's, it's, it's that understanding that our body is always trying, both mind and body are trying to protect a sort of time to survive. And that like sometimes is not the most beneficial way or the way that services the most, but it's a mechanism that's there to protect us. Yeah. So being able to find that is, it's so important.

And, and I, and I wonder, Shannon, as you are working with this coach and as you are doing this work on yourself, how did you start to see that all of that inner work and inner mental work as well started to. Your experie. In both with, as you were saying, with your food, with your, um, self image. You, you said like, now I'm, I'm confident in, you know, like, in, in this, what was that, you know, like process, like on an external perspective?

I think I, I had to like, the first time I told my story publicly about like what had happened to me. People had heard about it privately and whatnot, and I guess gossip travels and things. So there were obviously people in my circle who knew what had happened, but when I really talked publicly about my mental health struggles and what, what the real ramification is, instead of just brushing over it and being like, you know, I, I made it through this and I'm strong, and so on and so forth, my.

Anticipation was that I was going to be mocked or rejected or seen as weak and seen and on all of this. And of course, that wasn't the reality when I shared my story. The outpouring that that came forward from it, the, the willingness to be vulnerable and share other people were, were willing to say one, you know, we're inspired by your courage in sharing this, but it also makes us feel like we can do this.

And so it was, it was like I had to step into these uncomfortable places and kind of take a risk in a sense, because I suppose depending on who I was connected to, that could have happened. But it was, you know, in my head it was a much bigger risk and.

Once that had happened, I realized, okay, there's, there's a freedom in just being authentic, in being who I am and not feeling as, only because I felt, because I don't, let's say I don't have a, a fitness model physique, and I work in the world of weight loss and, and transformation in a sense. And so I felt as though, because I didn't have a fitness model physique, even though I'd lost a lot of weight, that I couldn't compete with all of these aesthetically, you know, attractive individuals.

But what that proved to me was it wasn't really about that. And for the people that I work with, it's not really about that. They, they'll say things like, yeah, it'd be kind of nice to look like that, but you know, it's not really their priority. , um, their priority is being able to live life more, more vibrantly, and more freely.

Piece by piece, bit by bit over time, I would just take forward steps into this sort of uncomfortable space where I'm like, I don't know how this is gonna get received, but I'm gonna try it and see what happens. And each time that happened and the worst case scenario that I had planned for in my head when that didn't come to fruition, that kind of gave me courage to keep trying to take these forward steps.

And that's not to say that I haven't sort of like lost people along the way because of who I'm becoming, but if they're uncomfortable with the person that I'm becoming, I, I don't hold it against them for choosing to take a different path. Hmm.

It's not like I lost them, you know, like a fight or anything. It's just like, sure. Yeah. We stopped actually hanging out. We stopped being friends because we were just interested in different things and we were going on a different path and. We are usually so comfortable with what is known and with the comfort of Right. Our group of friends, our family, our work, and this and that, that to create those changes, it takes a lot of courage. It does.

Yeah. So it's, it's something as you are saying, like. We need to be also prepared for what's going to happen.

And I think just even seeing that as a natural progression of life. and being comfortable with that, that by choosing this, ultimately though, like there are certain people that come into my life and that are staying in my life, that are, that are like with me as a part of my life because of who I am, because of who I'm becoming.

And so there's something also really beautiful about that and we could just call it, we wanna call it finding your tribe or something like that, however might express it, but just this idea. There is such freedom in being authentically who we are. And I share that. And I think sometimes maybe we misunderstand that. Cause I, I, or, or some people do.

I mean, because I hear people sort of authentically being jerks, , if I could just, I'll be polite about it, but, you know, and Oh, that's just who I am. You know, and it's like, well, being authentic doesn't, necess isn't necessarily a license to mistreat other human beings in the name of sort of being authentically yourself. But I think it's really becoming comfortable. Our own flawed.

Human experience where we come face to face with our weaknesses, our vulnerabilities, and the things that are less than perfect, and we start to become okay with them. And we're okay with the world seeing them and. In that, you know, because I, I think what one of my experiences was I lost everything in business in one of my business. Lost all of my money, lost all of it, you know, just left a mountain of debt.

And that's, it's kind of an interesting, almost like a metaphor that happened in real life. Everything was taken away from me, but I was kind of trapped in this business. I was trapped in this relationship. I was holding onto it, holding onto some kind of hope that maybe this wasn't gonna go the way that I kind of sensed it was.

but once it was all ripped away, it's like there was, there's nothing more I could do other than just maybe grieve the loss and now move forward and do something else in my life and I wouldn't be doing what I am today had that not been taken away from me. Mm.

You hit rock bottom now you into completely changed direction and all of that. I mean, it's an amazing opportunity. And at the same time, what I, what I say, You start changing before that happens, like ? Yeah. You know, like for me it's, it's the same as with medicine. I, I'm, I'm much more of a proponent of preventative medicine. Yes, yes. Than like, something happening and then having to like do something, whether that is holistically, uh, ally or whatever.

It's, it's, it's about understanding like, do I want to hit rock bottom or can I, can I understand like, ooh, I have lot of these things that I need to look into. and I can start changing before that happens. Yeah. And then, and if you know, like if someone path is drug bottom, that's going to happen either way,

I can't change my past with hindsight, but I can use my hindsight to help another person maybe not fall off a cliff. , you know, it's still gonna be hard and uncomfortable and you might fall and scrape your knee or twist your ankle or something like that, but you're not gonna fall off a cliff. Mm-hmm. . And that's, I think, where co like coaching and mentorship and like we're wired for human connection.

I think this is historically how human beings learned is through community and connection and mentorship and connection to elders and, and wisdom and things like, And we, we, we kind of, I think, lost that along the way.

But there does seem to be this sort of awakening, this desire to reconnect because we are the, you know, the age of digital technology is, is opening our minds up to, oh my gosh, there is a lot of terrible things happening in the world and we don't like this, so we have to go about this in a different way. And I like this idea of expansive. . You know, we might look at the magnitude of a problem and go, that's way bigger than me.

For example, I recently interviewed a gentleman who works in the prevention of child sex trafficking. That's, to me, feels like that would be a horrific thing to do, to come face-to-face with, and he said, you know, there's 45 million people being bought and sold in slavery today more than ever in human. And to try to come face-to-face with that number. You know, we hear events like the Holocaust, which is a horrific event in human history.

And, and this is dwarfing that in terms of the number of lives that are being destroyed. And as one person, it would seem like the, the, it's way beyond me to be able to do, but it's like, well, let's look at this in a different way. Could your actions maybe help one person? So one less life caught in slavery. And it doesn't even have to be direct action. Could it be just supporting somebody who works in this field and so on?

So it was a really interesting, and, and I think it's this idea that when, when faced with a monumental problem or challenge, we don't have to try to come up with a solution of equal magnitude. And there's actually, and, and that in itself is even, even.

Is on positive impact and they, they have done so much research on making sure that all of the companies that they are investing in, They are not supporting different things like mm-hmm. , uh, like the child trafficking or the slave, uh, trade or, um, unpaid slave, uh, modern slavery treatment, uh, unethical like practices, like all of these different values that they had, they made sure. That not only the company wasn't supporting that, but under supply chain that wasn't there.

Like of course as well, they were focusing on, you know, like, um, renewable energy and like plant-based food and a lot of new things that are out there. Mm-hmm. and, and he was saying something that by what you're saying, he, you didn't need to tackle this. He was talking to the audience. You didn't need to tackle. , you just need to not invest your money with the people that are putting money in that.

Yes. So if you invest with us, and he wasn't saying investing shut in us, like true of course. Saying like if you actually are investing and you don't know where that money is going, you might be supporting something that you're against. So just by becoming aware, Where you're investing your money, you might actually create already change as you're saying. And, and that's something, you know, like, it's not daunting. It's not huge.

It's a small change that we can use to vote with our dollars for what we want to see

. What I don't like is, is animal husbandry, modern animal husbandry practices where we don't honor and respect the animal that gives their life, that our life would continue. Cuz I rec, you know, I, I sort of have a cycle or circle of life view on things, but I would, I, you know, and so we're, we like the idea that we can go to a farm here locally where that with. They raise their animals in a humane fashion. The animals have a good life.

They have, they live life as it was intended for that animal. And then when it comes time for slaughter, that we, we consume all parts of the animal, not just the parts that we find, you know, most desirable. Uh, and so, you know, liver is the one that I have a bit of a bit of a hard time with. But, but really this idea of becoming a conscious consumer. Mm. So what am I choosing to consume? What am I choosing to spend my dollars on? What am I supporting with those dollars?

Because whether it's investing or spending, it's really, you know, I just find myself wanting to support companies that do really, uh, simple things. The company that makes, I think they're called True Earth, for example, and they make these little laundry sheets instead of making big bottles of laundry liquid that have the same effect, or a company that makes like toothpaste, tablets instead of, and they go in a glass jar instead of like plastic tubes or toothpaste. I, so on. So just.

Little decisions because if I tried to overhaul my entire life all at once, I would just be overwhelmed and run away screaming. But I just just keep making these little subtle shifts in my consumption patterns and become just a little bit more conscious every day in terms of how I choose to consume. And I think that's, when we approach it from that perspective, it becomes much more manageable. And I think we, we underestimate because we, we over, uh, sorry.

We, we underestimate the, the magnitude of one person's actions. We, we significantly underestimate the cumulative effect of those actions.

Therefore, I choose to eat a plant-based diet and I'm, and I'm vegan. Yeah. And I'm perfectly okay with those that are not. That what I'm, yes. What I'm always. Encouraging people is to look at what they stand for, to look at what their values are and to support that instead of supporting something unconsciously, that it's not what is aligned with themselves and that I think that as, as a practice to be able to. To go and to look into what do I actually care about? What, what are my values?

Yeah. Uh, and where can I get that? As you're saying, like, I, I also buy, for example, like the, like the toothpaste, uh, tablets. It's like one, like I, I care about, you know, like the impact of, of single use plastics, so I don't use single use plastic. I, I understand the impact of buying packaged things because a lot of it goes to landfill. I don't buy anything that would end up going to landfill.

Everybody choosing their own lane based on what they care about, and I think that that is part of the human experience from my side in terms of I'm not trying to force anything into anyone, and I am, I'm perfectly okay having a conversation.

Like we're having now I'm with you saying something that is different than my belief in terms of, you know, like the eating animals and I completely, I'm okay with the fact that that's your belief, that's your values, and that even within that you're doing something that, for you is more conscious than someone that perhaps is eating meat and doesn't even have that other aspect into it.

And it's, it's interesting how we, it feels like we're sort of coming full circle as, as, you know, human beings we speak about and maybe collective consciousness. We're just, we're becoming more and more aware of like how connected we actually are. There's a lot of us on the planet. We span the globe, but we're, we're, we're very, very connected. Hmm. And it, it's, it's shifting how we, how we choose to behave.

and we're, we're almost going through this like moment of reckoning where, where, for example, where we're uncovering, you know, capitalism and all of its promises. It's funny, I, I recently interviewed someone who's a communist and, and they hold a different position politically than I do in a sense, but I was interested in hearing their perspective and how did you get to this place?

Because our common ground was, we both look at, let say the capitalist consumption based economy and we go, there's a real problem here. We are like basically extracting as much. Hand from the earth and from human beings in the name of enriching specific shareholders and the massive wealth and power and money at the expense of, or the planet we live on, and 99.9% of the world's population. And so by having, even having these different perspectives, but having these conversations, we go.

Well, collectively, even from these different, different perspectives, we have very, very similar aligned goals. And can we find those common and those shared values and work from that place instead of this place of, you know, you're a bad person because you do this or you're a bad per, let's find the common ground first and say, can we work together towards these shared values that we.

Yeah. Instead of actually being able to hold the conversation and to be able to unpack, understanding how there's so many more similarities in our perspectives and in how we experience our human life. Than differences. And it's because we are just staying on that superficial level that we don't understand it yet with a lot of it.

And I think that the more that there's this change of consciousness and, and as you're saying, like this shift that is happening, there's, for me, going back to more simple. Going back to the slowing down and to reconnecting to ourselves, to others, to our environment. And by doing that, then our behavior will follow and change. So it is, you know, like for, it might be like that's how it might take hundreds of years, I don't know.

But it's, I think it's, it's a, a direction that I see that we're going. And at the same time, of course, as that happens, That means that we will shine a light on all of the things that are wrong and that is not going to be easy to look at. And a lot of the things that have been, uh, shoved under the rug, they're going to come out and that's going to be hard. And we are already seeing that in this last few years with a lot of things happening in the world.

Uh, and the interesting for me with that is it's not that that's new, it's just been hidden. So, yes. Yeah. How do we deal with the fact that now, now it's there, as you were saying, now all of this information, now it's there. What do we do with that?

I shouldn't, you know, but it, it, that's essentially what the ratio looks like. And so he says, men, if you are turning a blind eye to the fact this is happening, whether or not, and ignoring it will not make it go away. And so turning a blind eye to these atrocities that are taking. , it means that you are complicit. It doesn't mean that, hey, well, you know, I'm not doing it, so I'm okay. It's still happening.

Yeah, and it's, that's an uncomfortable reckoning to come to this place where you go, if I am trying to turn a blind eye and saying not in my backyard, whatever the challenge might be, that ultimately I'm, I'm complicit in it because I'm not actively being a contributor to positive.

Creating space and to be able to listen and to be able to give a voice, to be actively engaged in that, to understand, yes, as you're saying, like, I might not be like the one doing that, but I, I play a role in this collective, so what's my role in it? And Jonathan, as, as we're coming towards the end of this episode, let's just have a question for you. Might be a really big question. Not, I like big questions. , . Um, and is, what is the one thing you wish everyone in the world knew?

It's not that we make our lives harder than necessary, but when we come to peace with the fact, Inevitably we're going to encounter struggle, but that's where growth lies. And so this place of compassionate, conscious awareness is where this begins. And compassion allows us to see our weaknesses, our flaws, our struggles, our failures, really our humanity without the lines of judgment, but with a desire to understand. Hmm.

The other is called, it's Not so Black and White, and that's really about having civil, nuanced discussions around difficult topics where we might even disagree. And so, um, I would say those are the best places to.

We want you to be involved, so just leave us a comment, whatever it is that you're finding this episode. Thank you so much, Jonathan, for taking the time and for sharing in this open conversation, uh, and for everything that, that you're doing. And, and I do, I do hope that people go and continue to listen because there's so many important things that, that you touched on during this conversation.

One easy action we would love for you to take right now is to share, like, and subscribe to this podcast. This will help us get these messages out into the world and inspire more people to take conscious action in their own lives, contributing to the better world we hope for.