Episode 115 with Tom Jackson - Plastic waste & conscious consumerism

And, uh, yeah, we're pretty much all, all of the team bar one is, is based here in Bali.

Um, and so I, you know, I, I looked at leaving that world and, and moved into a, uh, a supplement startup, which we've all sort of seen those pharmaceutical. Tubes with our, with pills in and those kind of things. And, um, yeah, we, we, it was, you know, they were plant based supplements. They were fantastic, you know, really great product. But we had this packaging, which was horrible, uh, and it was plastic and we wanted to do a refillable option, like where the, it was an eCommerce space.

So they, um, Because humans could send it back and we'd refill it. Um, and yeah, that, that was really hard to do. And, and using metal packaging or aluminum wasn't an option otherwise because we'd have to wrap the products in different things anyway, so. I spoke to the, the supplier and it had a long, uh, conversation around what, you know, what are the eco options for, for brands to use.

And um, again, this goes back to me always being aware of conscious buying and me thinking on the other end of this, receiving those products in the mail. Like, I would be annoyed if I saw that in plastic. And, uh, I looked into it and I said, Guys, if I go and find a, a different, you know, option for this, would you, um, would you, Interested in, in, uh, me potentially supplying you if I come up with, with the goods. And they said, Yeah, I mean we are, we are looking for the eco options.

There's just nothing out there. So that really kick started. Me doing what I'm doing now and, and moving to Indonesia and looking for that. Yeah, the progression of always looking, I think Prime is probably the same for yourself. Always looking for eco options, reusable. Uh, and you know, when you find a brand or, or anything, we've. Buy, and they, they stand for something a little bit different.

Uh, I, I usually cling onto them with other products they bring out or refillables, anything like that. Um, yeah, it's a really important part of, um, the ecosystem of life, and that's kind of how it started for me. Um, but yeah, always, always had, um, the interest and, and, uh, yeah, looking into things that people, uh, are talking about and no one's asking why that's happening or why isn't that happen.

Um, you know, I, I, I can say I definitely stopped buying lots of things that I was consuming in terms of food because of the packaging that they come. And, and, and as you're saying, you know, like, what's, what's the alternative? Is there an alternative there? And, and I'm aware with a lot of these, um, you know, like these things that sometimes the, there's no perfection in certain alternatives. It's like, well, we have all of these big issues.

Some things, it's like we need to rethink the entire system. And some things it like, well, whilst the system is actually happening, how can we lower the footprint and how can we be a little bit more conscious? How can we like bring a little bit more awareness into like the entire supply chain or, or all of these different aspects as you're saying, because you might have an amazing product. Um, that is solving something.

Yet, if that product is coming in, like this plastic packaging that is completely virgin plastic, the footprint of that, then it's like, Oh, this is, this is challenging.

I think we need to reduce not only in plastic and clothes and just consciously buying and customers, uh, sorry, companies. To, uh, you know, provide for consumers. So like you touched on just there. With, uh, how you buy with your dollars, you know, it's really important and it doesn't feel like you have much power cause you are an individual and you see all this plastic bottles wrapped in plastic wrap. Um, and you think you don't have many options.

And, you know, that's very much what we are trying to, trying to change on the shelves. But, um, Yeah, you really do. Cause if you are thinking like that and you're in a supermarket or your local store, then other people, you know, someone else in a different part of the country or region would be doing the same. And before you know it, uh, that, that starts adding up.

And um, yeah, there's, there's been sort of things over the last few years where, I dunno, you saw in Bristol in the UK where, uh, in a Tesco supermarket, they all started pulling. Pulling the produce out of plastic and left all, you know, left all the plastic there on the conveyor. In the end they were like, You guys deal with it. We don't wanna have to throw that away. Or, or we don't wanna buy that.

And again, there's this big fight at the moment between like, um, putting it in plastic and you know, traveling all the way from the locations the food does, and health and safety and blah blah versus you. Not having it in that. So it's, yeah, it's a, it's a really interesting time for us to be in this sort of, uh, timeline of history, of working out these problems and. It wasn't fixed from generations before, and you know, all of us consciously or unconsciously need to, need to solve it.

Mm. Yeah. I, you

And for me it's, it's always been really interesting that there's this idea that, well, this is how it is. Well, like we haven't been. Plastics for that long. Like just look 200, 300 years ago. Like we didn't have that plastic. How were, you know, our ancestors living. And that doesn't mean that they were, you know, like going to go back to old ways on everything.

But there's certain things that's like, well this, this actually, you know, like people used to live a little bit more locally, like people used to, to. A lot more to repair, a lot more and, and to understand the cycle of things and the importance of what we were purchasing. And I think that that is, that's important. Cause as you mentioned, like a lot of times the end of life of certain products is not like, kept in mind.

And I think that, you know, I'd love for you to share a little bit more about the, like what you're doing with Honest Ocean Materials is like, Getting something that is an issue and actually repurposing.

Now we have like these little plastics fish trays with a transparent bit of plastic and yeah, slowing down's really important, uh, for sure. And, and, and every part of that and, you know, life's getting quicker, uh, and, you know, dogs and children and, you know, everyone's trying to make life easier.

Being able to, to create community environments where you can, um, you can have return policies and it's not all about big corporates, you know, trying to take profit and margins and all this stuff. It's about, uh, a little bit closer to home. And, and, you know, personal impact in community is a, is a lovely feeling that everyone wants to have. So that's a big part of it. But yeah. Uh, moving on.

So what we do is, is, um, and yeah, I, I moved here two years ago and I got off the airplane and I went straight into the communities here, uh, to go and look at it with my own eyes to see how bad it, how bad it was. And it was surprisingly, um, the overflow of waste. Um, there's a, there's a many things that contribute to it here. The household collection, it really doesn't exist too much here. There is a little bit of it, and when it. It's mixed.

So like organic waste, uh, plastic of value like your, your plastic bottles. Um, and yeah, uh, non-recyclable waste all goes together. So that's, first of all, that's that high contamination. So that won't, uh, that won't be, uh, that won't be as high value as when it was cleaned before or if, if the person cleaned it out. Education is a big thing. And then the third thing is the infrastructure to deal with that.

Um, there's a lot of virgin plastic producers here, uh, with closer Australia, Japan, Korea, uh, China. So there's cheap labor here. So there's a lot of infrastructure for creating new products, and there's very little to be able to recycle it and, and redo it. But, um, yeah, we'll, we'll go into communities and speak to, uh, the villages. Usually the, uh, the chief of the village, the head of the, the village.

And we'll look at the problem with them and, you know, they very much want to help their communities. We haven't had any experiences where they're not willing to talk to us, which is, uh, fantastic. Um, and yeah, we, we look at where the plastic's coming from. Is it coming from the city? Is it coming from the ocean? These guys all along the coast, Um, and it's primarily the coastline that we concentrate on.

Uh, they're ending up with this waste on, on, in their village, you know, doorstep, um, or heading past them to the ocean. So it's how, how do we, um, how do we work with them, you know, to, to get rid of that. It's not their fault that it's there most of the time. Um, it's come from other sources. So we work with, um, the communities on, uh, the river banks and the coastline. Uh, and then also. We work with, um, fishermen as well, which used to collect fish.

Uh, and those, uh, fish stocks are now gone down dramatically and they've got the nets and they've got the boats. So it's them collecting plastic for us. And, you know, it's a very time consuming, it's very expensive way to do it. And um, only the real way you can really, um, help this environmental space is not just collecting plastic, which is worth money. Um, and back into the recycling market. It's collecting everyth. Because.

Whether it's plastic or value or, or stuff that can't be recycled, uh, it's in the environment, so all of it has to come out. So we've had to spend a long time working out how it's financially viable to do that. And we're a for profit company so that we can actually give these guys long term jobs in the. In the coast that we can work with. Um, so yeah, that's, and that's basically the first, first step of it. And, you know, we, we work with the communities.

Um, we, we're not in competition with them, we just want to work with 'em to get the plastic away from there. And we'll, we'll buy it from them, uh, after we've helped them organized with the collection. Um, and then from there it'll go to our recycling. Which from our location is, is no more than an hour away usually. Uh, we've started in a few more of the remote islands of Indonesia, which has to come from boats unfortunately.

But, um, yeah, it'll be recycled, uh, separated, recycled washed, um, And then we, we partner with, uh, companies and brands that socially care about, uh, the people in, uh, and the plastic in these effective regions. And, um, yeah, that's really, we had to control everything from collection to sending to customers. And usually this supply chain, Brian is like, what everyone does one step and that's the easier way to do it. And it's been really difficult for us to control every step of that.

Uh, but it's really important. You have to be accountable for. And there's loads of technology around now, so we can track all our orders, which is really important to show consumers, um, you know, where it's come from and, you know, the end, end user, end user, manufacturer, customer. Um, you know, there's a, there's a lot of greenwashing around these days, which I'm sure you Sure you've seen. So being able to, um, provide evidence of where it comes from is really. Mm.

We want our team to run in a reusable way, which means, I'm like, plastic is not, uh, especially single use plastic is not the solution yet for whatever is already created there is, Well, do we want it to be waste in the ocean, like incinerated creating, you know, pollution, Uh, or do we want it to actually, with all of that, do something, turn it around and create something. More valuable. Something that as well.

And, and I, you know, one of the things that I appreciate about what you're doing is that it's also, like for me, like in the climate crisis, it's also, uh, climate justice like issue. And a lot of times, you know, like small communities or like the, the islands here in the Pacific, like they are taking a lot of what. Us in the industrialized world are sending to them and it's not their fault, but they don't have the systems in place to also deal with it.

So as well, you know, like the fact that you are partnering with the communities and with the villages and to be able to provide them with not only a way to reduce the pollution in their doorstep, but as well to, to make a living or to, you know, like to be able to have something positive. From that experience and to turn that into a product.

Uh, so what, like, one of the things with that, that I'm, I'm interested is what kind of products have you been, um, creating or have been created from all of these materials that you're recycling?

Um, uh, way to see our, our products going into, you know, shops and things like that, and these guys manufacture coasters and all sorts of great things. So that's the exciting stuff. Uh, the bigger stuff, you know, is made into, um, buckets and things like that. We, we try and make sure all our products go into, you know, long term, uh, applications, uh, application meaning, uh, into, into buckets of shampoo bottles and things like.

Um, uh, we don't really do too much of the plastic water bottles, um, which goes from, you know, waste and then back into those again. We try and find sustainable, uh, long term products. Um, so yeah, it's a bit of a mix really. Um, and, you know, um, yeah. Uh, Sort of eco shampoo bottles we've done a lot of recently.

Um, and yeah, so sort of when we, our job finishes when we create these little pellets recycled plastic pellets, which, um, we, they go in big sort of 500 kg bags and into, into the container. And from there they, yeah, they turn into to lots of things and sometimes, you know, uh, we've got fiber as well, which will go into clothing. Uh, we don't do very much of that at the moment.

Um, but yeah, there's, there's lots of different kind of things and it's, it's hard to think of, uh, specifically what they are, but, uh, yeah, the, the body shop sort of, uh, thing we're, we're really proud of. And yeah, we're looking for, we're pretty small, so we've only got, you know, a few customers and we're looking. Uh, you know, small or bigger brands that really wanna, you know, see where their extra dollar goes to.

Um, so yeah, we're, we're always on the hunt, but it's mainly sort of buckets, shampoo bottles, um, things that have more than one life is really what we try and.

So yeah, it was a thing of looking at where Indonesia was, and I spent really four years looking at waste management, virgin manufacturing, and the recycling market. The where, why it was going wrong. How was, how was it in, you know, 20 20, 20 18 when I was looking at it? How is this getting into the environment that, you know, we're a modern society, this shouldn't happen.

And so looking into how bad Indonesia was, and uh, like I mentioned, we've got, you know, Australia and China and Japan and Korea all very close. And, um, lots of people have been sending waste here too. So it was really, Getting here and understanding it for myself and, um, I very much believe in surrounding myself in the place that I work and me sitting in, in the UK or London and trusting people over here that, you know, if something's being done is just, it's just not good enough for me.

And I, I probably wouldn't accept that though. I had to be here. I had to underst. The people, um, you know, what motivates them? Uh, the actual Yeah, the region I'm in. Like, so why, um, yeah, what are the trends happening here with plastic waste and you really, and to learn the language, All these kind of things are really important.

Um, and since that, you know, uh, Anika, our operations directors come over here as well, and a j our marketing guy and, and the other guys were all kind of based here except for a co-founder Angus in, in the uk. But that's really, For us to, to come over and, and look at it. And, uh, there are so many companies that are in the west or or wherever they are. And you know, they'll employ people over here and be like, Yep, okay, off you go.

Okay, we've got an office in wherever and we are doing this. And you know, it's very hard to know if that's really what's happening. Mm-hmm. . Um, so yeah, that was a big part of coming here and just putting a hundred percent into this. And, you know, for our customers, we. We have to be accountable. You know, greenwashing is a really scary word around a, you know, if you've got a brand or a company that has a big reputation, you, you know, you can't be in those situations.

Um, so you know, it's on us to be here and, and to be doing exactly what we say we're doing, um, and to show how we're different. Bruno, which, um, yeah, potentially aren't doing it, doing it that way. So, yeah, it, it is really important part of our business being here. Um, you know, business is Indonesian as well as a British one. Um, so yeah. Uh, it's about ingraining yourself in the roots of, um, Yeah. Where, where you're operating.

, like a lot of times it's like, as, as you mentioned, like how, how the organizations can, and businesses can create that change and not greenwash, like actual change to, to create new systems and to not put everything on the consumer. Which is what ends up happening a lot of times. Yeah. Yeah. Because not every consumer is aware of what's happening, of the impact of what they are purchasing, or they cannot make that choice.

So a lot of times I'm like, well, for anyone like me that is in a place of privilege in terms of education or knowledge, and has the, the, you. They can make the decision of, I'm going to change the way that I'm doing things. Then it's like, okay, what am I doing to create that change? And how am I in a sense creating more of the demand for the things that are actually creating? A benefit for people or the environment instead of their way around.

So like the more that I can as an individual do that, the more in a sense that the companies will see, oh, like there's this trend that is changing and people are becoming more aware. And of course there's still millions or billions of people that are not. But it's little by little, you know? Creating that change. And I think that that's, as an individual, that's all that I can do is like, yeah, leading by example.

Um, and to, and to share with others and, and get others to question if what they're purchasing actually is needed, and if it's needed, if there's a better alternative.

So there's a big unaccountability side of things, and it's really interesting to see the brands that are trying to be game changers in this space, which are actually like, um, yeah. TerraCycle and Loop and, and things like that, which is trying to, um, bring, you know, the, the actual. The bottle, they own the packaging and it just gets refilled and it circulates that way. Uh, it's really important. And yeah, like you said, there were trends. I look at the vegan movement, right?

That was a massive, uh, part of. Of, you know, um, the last like 15 years of, of, of, of, um, you know, food and, and dieting I guess if you would call it. And that didn't start from, you know, uh, companies putting that on shelves and going, Hey, you guys might like this. It's cause people after it. And it started with a very small minority. And, and now you see on shelves, it, you know, meat free takes. Most of the shelves these day, these days.

So it's really exciting to, to see what consumers can do. And it really shows that it works and those companies exist, you know, to supply us with things. So, um, yeah, knowing the value of your purchase, I would say is as a, as a, as us, as a conscious consumer. It's really, I. Um, because yeah, alone you feel, you feel really empty and together you

can, you know, achieve a lot . Um, and yeah, there, there is a lot of blame on consumers and it's easy to do that cause there's, you know, it's not one thing as many individuals, whereas a big business is one component. Um, yeah. And I think, you know, as we, as we get on and as. Rise and startups come along, they are creating more accountability for what they're supplying and, and social impacts as well as, you know, the carbon side of things these days.

So yeah, I am, I am hopeful for the future and this is why I like to Brian cuz a lot of, there's a lot of negativity around, uh, the world. But this, you know, we're talking about solutions and, and, and things that are trying to make the world a better place. Um, So, yeah. Really, really important part of, uh, the life cycle of, of our planet that we're in at the moment. So it's, uh, exciting, exciting times. Cause it will get better. .

Brian Berneman: Yes, and, and you know, I, I do have, you know, like this. Optimistic for some people view of going to a future that is actually thriving, that is more in connection with the, uh, with nature, with each other as communities and people and, and to understand, you know, like, we can get there. It's not this, you know, for me in the future, it's not.

Apocalyptic, you know, like Armageddon type of world is like, well, like we're going back to, to that connection with nature and this possible as long as. We move in that direction as long as the ones that we can make those decisions can do that. You know, a lot of times as well as we are talking about the companies, putting everything on on people is like, well, you know, how can an individual see that someones plastic product is actually made from 100% recycled? Plastic.

It's like, yeah, it's trying to put everything back on the consumer. Although it's important for me to take the time if I want to make the right choice. It's like, oh, you know, like what are those things that I need to look, look out for in a company, because. There's a lot of companies with grim washing. I see. You know, like some big companies that put out one product that is like, Oh, this is recycle made with recycled plastic. And like a lot of people, you know, like jump into that.

And that company advertises that. And then I found out reading the fine print, it's like, well, there's only a percentage of that and it's only in one product of the 500 that they do. So it's like, You know, do I want to, to support that or not? And that's as an individual, my decision in a sense, whether I want, yeah, that big company to say like, Oh, this one product, like, you're going in the right direction.

Or like, No, you're making a mess of everything else, so I'm not going to jump to that. And that's up to me as an individual to decide in which of those I want. Yeah, absolutely. And um, like yeah, like you said, it is, it is up to you and it's up to all of us to be a part of that. And, um, you know, it's, it's not about these companies going, Oh, I need to hit, you know, my budget of, you know, or our 6% goals of sustainability or 25%, you know, we. Typically work with companies like that.

If people want to physically have a change or in, you know, in society or create products for their end users, which, you know, from the core of their business, they actually want to help. Then, you know, all day long we are gonna look at that and that's really exciting for us to do. Um, people who want it cheap. Want it quickly and just want to hit their targets. Yeah, of course big companies have got targets, but like, what do you want to achieve?

Do you want, do you want your consumers to come back and buy that product 12 times or do you want 'em to buy it once and find out, you know, that actually, uh, you were doing the bare minimum and things like that. And bring a time of traceability, not just for plastic, but. For big companies to be accountable.

And, uh, this is a cool thing about where we see like, um, the next generation who don't wanna work so much for big companies and they wanna have a social impact and, you know, they won't do like, um, you know, the last generation, they won't do 25 years in the same job if they're not happy after a year, they. You know, they're onto the next one. And, and this is very much a workforce which is coming in, which, um, won't put up with that and wants to be a part of the change.

And it's a fantastic time to be able to see, uh, how relevant that's gonna be for the success of big businesses, or whether we're just gonna run with a network of medium to small businesses with massive social. Um, and yeah, you know, big companies need to be aware of that and it's, you know, it's not about the politics and the, the gain in inside of a, a business, which, if anyone's worked in a corporate, you know that that's a big part of that. It's about being.

More as one and, and especially as on Ocean, we are all on the same energy movement together, going that way, uh, with the value of that, it always comes back to the, um, the people on the ground who do this. And, and we, we exist to help them and create a platform for them to, to um, that material to, and, you know, if every business starts having that, uh, sort of attitude, the world would be in a much better place.

You know, consumers and us going to purchase, you know, we wouldn't have to look for that and really struggle to spend time on finding that product which is better for the environment, or that company has a cause that if I put, if I pay 20 cents more for this product, actually it's gonna. You know, that could, that could go towards, you know, a village's, uh, monthly, you know, rice or, or food buying, uh, habits. You know, that's where we all wanna be in that environment.

Whereas if we have to buy these products off the shelf, which, you know, we do, um, you know, we want, we wanna see it go further. Um, and, you know, you know, we're really getting to a time. We see, you know, social media as bringing people together, like nothing, uh, in terms of, uh, sustainability.

Yeah, everyone's panicking cuz they're, they've gotta come up with new ways to, to help consumers and it just comes with being honest and truthful and, uh, humans connect the best on that way and that's why we're called Honest Ocean cuz you know, we wanted to set us apart from all the, all the bullshit that, that we find in this, in this industry and really just show people, you know, what we're doing and yeah, it's a massive part of, massive part of the future for any size

of the company and creating that value. It's, it's really, I. Mm, yes.

This is how we're supporting the community and the larger community and, and the, and this planet. So it's super important to do that. Um, and to. One of the things that, that I wanted to, to ask you as, as we are bringing this, this conversation toward end, is for anybody that wants to, you know, like learn more about what you're doing, potentially they have, you know, like some product that they are like, Ooh, I could actually get that, uh, recycled plastic from on this ocean.

How can they get in touch?

Um, it'd be fantastic to work with, with anyone, whatever size your business.

We'll put the links on the show notes so that you can access it, uh, easily, and check what you're buying. Understand the power that you have on every purchase that, that you make. Um, yeah, again, like if, if you have a, Tom was just saying business or an idea or something, just get in touch with them. So, yeah. Thank you Tom for being here.