Have you ever wondered whether the problems in the world today would exist if we had deeper connection to ourselves, others, and the environment, and acted from that place? Welcome to the Conscious Action Podcast with your host Brian Berneman and Kayla Greenville, who believe that connection is the key to taking conscious action as individuals and creating a better.
We are here to raise awareness and inspire meaningful action by sharing stories, knowledge and conversations with thought leaders and change makers from sustainability to wellbeing, and everything related to conscious living. Our mission is to empower you to be the change that you want to see in the world. Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Conscious Action Podcast.
I am Brian Berneman, your host, and I have the pleasure to be joined all the way from teams here in New Zealand as well by Kara-Leah. Thank you Kara-Leah so much for taking the time to be here. Um, for what I know, it's going to be a wonderful, wonderful conversation. So thank you for being here and for everyone that is listening. Can you share a little bit about yourself? Mm-hmm. . Awesome. Thanks Brian.
Um, yeah, so my name's CAR and I recently realized that I really just need to own the fact that what I do is I'm a spiritual teacher. Um, didn't wanna call myself that for a long time. You know, I kind of edged around it in terms of like, I teach this, I teach that. I'm like, Fuck it, I'm a spiritual teacher. Um, and what that means is that I support people to meet reality as it is, and I help them shift from identification with the.
The story of me, their thoughts, their feelings, et cetera, to identification with awareness or consciousness, and knowing themselves as that. So that's my professional working life. I'm also a writer and journalist by trade. Um, I have a son who's 12 and I love to dance, so I go to all the festivals and, uh, Brian and I have been known to hit the dance floor a few times. Always love it when I see Brian on the dance floor. Yeah, yeah. Um, so that's a little bit about me. Beautiful. Beautiful.
It's, it's so interesting, you know, a lot of times when. Just as we are all the time evolving and changing and rediscovering a sense different parts of ourselves. It's, it's that, like what do we call ourselves? Like I had someone the other day asking me for a, for an interview, What do I call in? I'm like, Ooh. Like, you know, like, Okay, let me check in and see what do comment at this point. Uh, mm-hmm. instead of what I've been calling myself or people have been calling me.
Before we get a little bit more in depth with, with that and, and a few things that you said that I think that it's wonderful. Can you share a little bit about your own path and what led you to actually be doing this at this point? Mm-hmm. . Uh, I was always a curious seeker, always asking questions about the nature of reality.
Like I was, I grew up in the Presbyterian church, um, and was really involved in youth group as a teenager, but started to argue with my leaders around, But what if Jesus is love? Everyone? Shouldn't we be loving gay people? , thats, you know, . I think that was the last time I went to youth group was when I was asking that question, and then in my twenties I ended up going overseas. Partying, traveling, being a backpacker and seeking reading all the books.
Like I read Celestine Prophecy when it first came out. It was like 19, I think, 1994 when I read it. Um, I just left high school at that time. Um, so next important sort of landmarks, I got into yoga. because I had back issues, major back issues. I'd had a spinal fusion when I was 15, and then when I was in my twenties, I started to get sciatic pain again. And the doctors are like, You're gonna need another operation. And I'm just like, Yeah, nah, I'm gonna sort this out myself.
You guys didn't sort it the first time. Why would I believe you'd. Thought it the second time. Um, so I got into yoga and yoga, meditation, consciousness, expanding drugs like I was living in Canada, so I was doing quite a lot of mushrooms and all of that curiosity and that speaking, et cetera, basically led to kini awakening slash psychosis as my, um, Patterns of the psyche and avoidance kind of collided with the expansion.
So I ended up in 2004 in the psych ward, um, twice that was like a month apart. And my whole life imploded. You know, I was 29, I was engaged, I got dumped. Um, I was trying to make it as a writer. I had written a screenplay that had run, won a national award in Canada, So, you know, like it was going somewhere. But then, Ending up in the psych ward was just like, Oh my God, I gotta go back to New Zealand and sort my shit out. Um, so that's what I did.
I came home and just really dove into home practice cause I couldn't find any yoga teachers that I really wanted to go to. I was living in a town that had no yoga basically. Um, that lead me to teaching yoga in 2006. and things started to, like, once I began teaching, I was like, Whoa, I gotta commit to my students. So I started practicing every day. Um, I ended up doing my training in 2010 with she Ray, who's amazing. She's so, Embodied, you know, she is like an embodiment of the goddess.
She was amazing. And that's when I got introduced to classical tantra and a specific tantra practice that I just took to like a duck, to water. Tantra spoke to me. Um, probably the next major milestone was 2015 when I decided I was gonna do a thousand days in a. Of that hardship practice. Um, and it took me six or seven years to complete that cuz I dropped the ball twice. But I did it, I did a thousand days in a row and that.
Next level that really like pierced something in my experience of reality. Um, and as a result of doing that, I discovered the teachings of Christopher Wallace in about 2018. I released my memoir, my third book in 2018, which was fricking terrified, I have to say. I was terrified. It's like, Oh my God. Yeah. And so along the way I just kept teaching people and working with people and refin. How I was working with people.
So initially it was just physical, you know, like we were doing yoga, but it was always from the perspective of self realization. So I always, always taught from that where the yoga practices are a tool to self realize they're not the end. And themselves. Um, but then as I went on, I started to refine and started to work with people more on the mental, emotional and energetic level.
Um, so I've worked with thousands of people now over the years and run direct realization country immersions, which are, I gotta say the next level. Like for people who really just wanna wake the fuck up. Yeah. I'm watching people come on them and their whole experience of reality changes. Such a delight. God. Mm. Yeah. That's so, so, I mean, such a, an amazing journey. Freaking hilarious.
First of all, like, first of all, like I already knew about your, your journey, and I think that, you know, there's, I think one of the key things for me that, that I take away any time that I see you, um, is. I, I, I have this thing a lot of times because of my own path that I didn't seek to, to be teaching. I just went to do my own practice.
And just by doing that now I'm living and facilitating and doing all of these things and, and I notice so much when, when people like, when there's bullshit and when there's actual, you know, like. Understanding when there's embodied truth and doesn't mean that we have it all figured out in, in, in certain things.
I think that's there and, and that's one of the things that anytime that I see you and anytime that, that I hear you speak, I, I I get that sense that you're speaking from that place of, of truth and from a place of. You know, like you've done, you've gone through this journey, you had that awakening process. You've actually delved into the practice. You did those, you know, like thousand days in like in row. Like even if you stopped at some point, you recommitted inside, like that discipline.
And to be able to do that, I think that it's really interesting for, for a lot of people to hear. A lot of times, you know, people see us where we are now and they don't see the entire journey and I think a lot of times it's important to see that. Yeah, it's a good point. Um, yeah, I was a miss like after 2004, I was a complete miss. I felt so fricking bit, so fricking bad for so long. But you know, the curious thing about my journey is I got on the internet in 2000. Was it 2000?
Yeah. And started blogging. I started blogging. I had a blog called Be Conscious. Now it's Gone now. I mean, you could probably find it on the way back then, you know, Time machine on the internet. Um, so what that does mean though, then I started the Yoga Lunchbox in 2008 and I can't remember when I started my YouTube channel, but. There's actually things I wrote 14 years ago, and there's videos of me like 10 years ago.
And so from that perspective, people can go back and they can see what I was like 10 years ago, or even five years ago, three years ago. And the shift is palpable in terms of the level of. Integration or embodiment or ease or joy. It's just like, Oh wow. I'm not the same person that I was. It's just clear. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things for me, embodiment has been a huge part of my, of my practice and, and what I believe it's, it's part of this path of realization.
Um, one of the things that, that I would love to, to get your. Your viewpoint on is. A lot of times, a lot of people that are doing yoga classes have no idea about that side of things. They are just going and doing, and this is just my point of view. They're just going and doing a movement or fitness exercise with yoga as an hour, yoga poses, yet there's no understanding. So my, my question is a, do you see this and also.
How, when you're working with people, do you introduce this light of this other understanding alongside the actual movements or, Or the ass? Mm-hmm. . I do see that big time, and what I've realized is because. What happened for me in 2004 where there was Awakening Unfolded, there was a paradigm shift in per, in perspective of reality as such. So it meant that when I taught, I was teaching people from the perspective of orientation to awareness.
So I would be instructing, you know, be aware of da, da, da, da. So it wasn't like, Put your foot here, be aware of what. When you put your foot there and that shift into inviting people into awareness, inviting people into noticing is the difference, right? Because then it's bringing people into self-awareness, which leads into self-reflection, which ultimately leads into self realization. Knowing one self is awareness.
Now, if there's a teach, a yoga teacher teaching who has no embodied direct experience of what it means to be realized, They currently teach it because they don't know it yet. Mm-hmm. and I mean, if they've been taught by someone who self-realized they might cue in a way that leads to it. But you can't, you know, this is an embodied practice that a teacher can only take a student kind of as far as they've gone. They can, they can kind of point further, you know? Um, yeah.
So when I teach, I don't actually teach a lot of physical embodiment anymore. At all. Mm-hmm. I'm just, you know, I, from my perspective, I'm like, there's a shit ton of epic yoga teachers out there, . I don't have to do that anymore. , I just don't wanna tell people what to do with their bodies. Um, that said, I really love, so when I lead immersions, I wasn't teaching any physical stuff on there, but I notice that people actually did need to move their body. So I started to teach on the.
In a different kind of way where I put the music on, we'd all be in a circle together and I would give, you know, I'd kind of set the container and give a little bit of instruction and really invite people to move from awareness to let the breath lead and to explore and be curious about their body. And so I discovered that there's a way to teach where I'm not telling people what to do.
But rather I'm giving them permission to be with and to play with their own body and to recognize that when there is, um, when we surrender to the breath, the breath will actually lead us into practice. You see. So that's, that's how I work now. And so I am looking at starting to do some embodiment teaching down here in Tim's where I'm not gonna tell people what to do.
I'm gonna set the container, I'm gonna put on the music, and I'm, I'm gonna invite people to just move freely whilst holding the space. Mm, Yeah. Yes. That's, that's beautiful. I found, you know, it's, it's so important and, and. In my own experience, it's been an interesting journey of understanding my role as well as a space holder or as a facilitator. Creating as you're saying, that container, creating that space that allows people and gives them permission.
To, to do what feels right at that moment or however they want to move, however they want to explore things instead of being like, Okay, now let's do that. Let's do that. , even though I know a lot of times there are certain movements, there are certain postures that unlock certain energy patterns. So I'm like, okay, like there's an invitation for that as well sometimes.
And a lot of times it's like, okay, let's, let's just feel, And I think that I, in my own experience, and I wanted to get your take on this, is that as. Facilitator. I actually use a lot of times the word facilitator and the word guide, uh, or space holder more than teacher partly cause I know what teacher represents for me and what teacher represents for a lot of people in terms of power dynamics.
So I wanted to, to bring this, this topic, uh, as well because I know that as we're recording this, we are in August and few weeks before, or perhaps a month before here in New Zealand. There's been a few things talked about in terms of this like teacher or facilitator role and what has transpired. So first, before we get into. What do you see the, the role of the teacher or that condition of the power dynamic? Mm. Okay. That's a huge question and I'm excited to dive into it.
I, I use the words, uh, interchangeably a bit. I do often prefer facilitator, and at the same time, I'm definitely in the role of teacher. So particularly when I'm leading the direct realization, uh, tanura immersions, I'm teaching. The practices and the view teachings and the frameworks of classical tantra as I'm facilitating what's unfolding. Um, and what I would say is that the. There's always gonna be inherent power in whether it's facilitator or teacher or instructor or whatever it is.
There is always inherent power in that position that's usually projected into it by the participants, right? Cause you are the person that apparently knows more, right? So people are gonna project that power in. And to a degree there is more power because you do know more. That's just the fact of it. Like when I first started teaching yoga and I hadn't been trained at all, I had no training.
I was just, you know, and I was freaking out about it and one of my friends said to me, he's like, Well, if you know more yoga than the other people in the room, then it totally makes sense that you're the one teaching them, cuz you just know more than they do. I was like, Oh yeah, it does kind of make sense. It's not that you have to know all the things, just know a little bit more.
What I think is really, really important though is that the teacher or the facilitator understands the inherent nature of power dynamics and how that will elicit certain reactions or responses from students because humans are wired for status. Mm, right.
You put humans in a room, and what humans are doing unconsciously is determining where they are in the hierarchy, where they are in the status, and how they can improve their status by acting in a particular way or by allying with a certain person, et cetera, et cetera. So humans are always doing this thing around status. So it's my job as the facilitator, as the teacher to be aware of that, to see when it's happening, and to not buy into.
Because the moment, if I as a teacher or facilitator am using that role, To boost my own sense of power. If I'm, if I'm getting off on it, then I'm gonna encourage that shit, because then I get to get off on being the one with the power. Right. And I see that happen.
Like I watched, you know, I watched this, the Tony Robbins documentary three or four times, and I actually made it required viewing on one of my immersions because we were looking at power dynamics between facilitators and audience members. It was extraordinary because he was completely imposing upon the people, his perspective of reality. You know, it was just a power over and a dominating and an authoritarian approach.
Um, and that's the way the lot of shit's been done in Western society for so long. So people expect that that's what happens with teachers, facilitators, participants, but it doesn't have to be that way. So what I tend to do is a sit a circle for a start, and that immediately shifts the hierarchical power. Like if I've got 12 people in little rows before me on a seat, then everyone's attention is on me, and it looks like I'm the one who.
If we are all sitting in a circle, then everyone can see everyone equally. And the center point I usually work with an alt is the altar. And so that is the center of it. So there's a shift that happens just in rearranging the room, literally. Um, and I learned that from Sheva. Like she always taught in a circle. She, she had 80 people doing yoga, and it's in a circle, you know, as much as possible.
And. Mm. Something else I do is that I reference the fact that there is wisdom in the room and I listen deeply and I don't presume to know all the things, and I really cultivate curiosity as much as possible. Just feeling into. And I just, I notice, you know, I notice the dynamics that can play out in terms of how people might be playing out their, you know, speaking approval, for example, or people pleasing, for example.
And I can see very clearly how easy it would be for a teacher, facilitator, et cetera, to take advantage of those behavior patterns for. Their own purposes, and I choose not to, and I actually, you know, I, because I don't wanna do that shit the moment I start doing that, I'm actually undermining on the very deepest level, the work I'm offering into the world. Mm, yes, yes.
You know, there's, there's, for me, and, and I know as I said before, that sometimes it's the word, but, but it's that place of, of that dynamic. And it's, uh, as you're saying, It's ingrained in us to to have that happen. And I also, as much as possible, always in circles, Always, you know, like sitting on the same level as, as everyone else. Um, and as well to, to be able to recognize for myself and taking responsibility of my role.
I, I feel a lot of times, you know, that, that responsibility, if I'm in front or if I am the one facilitating, or if I'm the ones holding the space or I'm the teacher, regardless of how I call myself, If I am the one as you're saying with. More knowledge on that specific like topic and I'm presenting.
It's my responsibility to understand there's for a lot of people unconsciously that our dynamic, So what am I going to do as someone that is aware that that's happening and how can I. Bring that into the space, whether I'm verbalizing it or not, as you're saying with that curiosity or with that understanding like, ooh, like, you know, like, is this for me or is this for them?
Because if what I'm offering is, is for everyone that I'm working with, then all that matters to me is their own work on themselves. It's not how they make me. And it's not about boosting, as you're saying, It's not about boosting my ego or anything that it's, that is that, And on top of that, I'm, I'm a male Yeah.
And I know as you're saying that we as a patriarchal uh, society, The, the role of the male facilitator, especially within the more conscious or spiritual spaces, I take a lot of responsibility on that and understanding that, you know, like I have no idea what's what might happen with someone else, but I have seen in the past male teachers, spiritual teachers, and women in a sense, throwing themselves at.
And, and therefore it was like, as a male at that time, I'm like, Wow, like, you know, like you need to have a lot of self-restraint not to do anything. As all of these women were throwing themselves at him. And now I'm like, even though I know that stuff happened, now I'm like, it's my responsibility and I don't have anyone throwing themselves at me , but.
I, I understand my, my place in that, and I make sure that I am honoring myself and I'm honoring the space that I am creating or holding, and I am honoring everyone that is showing up as the one that potentially is aware of that, whether people are aware if of that or not. And, and I think that for me, it's so important nowadays.
With, with everything that is happening in the world and all of the changes to bring more and more awareness into that and to have, you know, conversations like this, to, to allow, and, and I know that you've been having these conversations to allow people to. Understand that there is this power dynamic, that there is stuff happening, and whose responsibility is it? Is it, mm-hmm , the responsibility of the attend or the students to understand this is happening unconsciously, The power dynamic.
Or is it the responsibility of the facilitator or the spaces, if it's in a festival or a conference, you know who responsibility is it? And I think that it's such an interesting dynamic that I'm like, Okay, I'm going to play my part into making sure that I am showing up in a way that feels right for everyone involved and not just potentially for me.
Mm. Yeah, I think, um, what you're saying in terms of you've witnessed or seen other male spiritual teachers and women throwing themselves and you've looked at that and gone, Yeah, gotta make sure that doesn't happen.
Um, you know, I would suggest that your own awareness of it and your own containment of your sexual energy is possibly why you don't have that many women in those situations throwing themselves at you because you've already taken the responsibility and contained the energy in such a way that there isn't that. Going out that you know, which is very, very subtle, sometimes not so subtle.
And yet when I, you know, when I think of some male teachers or facilitators, et cetera, when they don't have that level of awareness, their sexual energy is actually in the game. It's looking, it's seeking, and it's, and you know, and then some women feel that and they pick it up and they respond. So it's absolutely the presenter, the teacher, the facilitator's responsibility to own that energy, contain that energy. And if they get approached to just, no, you know, Gotta be that way.
Yeah. And, and you know, something that, that, from that, that is really interesting. Like, I, I've been single now for, for many years and like a lot of people ask me like, why are they not meeting anyone? I'm like, everyone that I'm meeting, like 90% of the people that I'm meeting are coming to my classes or know me as a facilitator. Yeah. Um, I like if I'm in that role, As, as you're saying, like I'm basically in a sense blocking that from happening.
I'm not seeing anyone with that kind of perspective and like from, from my own personal life it's, well, like I'm not, you know, like I'm not being able to meet a lot of people that potentially would be like-minded people if they are doing things where I am going.
And at the same time, I know this is a very, very challenging space to navigate and how to, if I would be interested in someone that has come to one of my classes, it's like, okay, is, is there already this power dynamic being engaged or how do I deal with that And mm-hmm. , you know, a as a as. Brian's like wanting to integrate my own experiences in partnership with, with someone else and to explore that side of life as well. And at the same time, I have their perspective.
I need to honor that space. That, for me, is a sacred space for me. Its, you know, like as I'm saying, honoring everyone involved. And I think that it's a really interesting dynamic as, as we move through all of this. And I think that that's, Sometimes the line gets a little bit blurry and for some people it's like, okay, yeah, they go beyond that. It definitely can be blurred and gray and there aren't any Es either.
I mean, there are cases of, you know, one woman on one of the threads around this, she put said, Well, I met, I met my husband, he was a student in my class. He came to class a few times and he asked me out for coffee. Went up for coffee, Now we're married. You know, so, and in that instance, what unfolded? And so it's worth noting that there isn't always. A power dynamic, you see?
And so I think there needs to be sort of this blanket rule of containment of sexual energy, awareness of the dynamics, et cetera, et cetera. And also, you know, if someone who came to one of your classes was to then ask you out on a date, if you check in with your colleague and you check in with that person and you just see is there a power dynamic? What's going on? You know, Is it someone I've worked with for a long? Yeah, there's, there's so many different factors.
So what I've started to do as a facilitator, um, because I still, it, it, you know, I'm single now and I definitely think that whilst it's different for men, because most of the people I'm working with are women. Um, but I do work with men and I'm starting to notice, I'm like, Oh, I've gotta be really clear with boundaries here. . And so checking in with colleagues, having conversations with colleagues and letting that guide us, and I feel like that's the way forward.
So that in those instances where it might actually be okay, you get the go ahead. Not because you wanna do it, but because you've got a couple of colleagues who go. In this instance, it feels legit and there's no power dynamic. This is not an abusive situation. This is all good. Mm-hmm.
. Yeah. Yeah, and I think, you know, I think it's really interesting with this, as I saying, like I know as well people that have been like, I, I, I know back from Argentina, like someone that now they're in their seventies, um, when one was like teaching, like they, they've been in a relationship together for 50 years and one was the other one's teacher. And it's like, well, things can happen. As you're saying like that, it's just about understanding and about being able to, To figure out.
Okay. As you're saying, is there a power dynamic? Is this okay? Like is there an understanding and is that not just from my own perspective and that other person perspective because perhaps that attraction is not enabling a level of objectivity, but bringing other. People that I might trust and be like, Hey, like what? What do you think? Like, I'm doing that in a container that potentially is together and as well separately to be able to, to understand what that's like.
So, I think there's, there's a lot in there, . Yeah, there are. You know what the, the ironic thing is, the very fact you're aware of this, Brian, the very fact you're asking these questions means that you are very unlikely to ever abuse power dynamics Right. And the people that. Don't ask those questions, are not aware of it. They're the ones that are abusing the power dynamics, et cetera. And so that's kind of the irony of it.
But from having a conversation like this, someone who's on the edge who hasn't even considered it, might suddenly go, Oh, I need to be aware of this. You know, Cause I care about people and I don't want to, you know, we talk about abuse. Abuse is what happens. There's a power dynamic for a start, and again, this comes down to status in the way that humans inherently bow to status and discount their own judgment and their own thoughts.
If someone who they perceive as higher than them is saying something, they're like, Oh, I better go along with them because, you know, none of it's conscious. It's just how we operate. Um, And that's the giving away of power piece where power, you know, is given.
If you look at what happened with, um, Rod Striker in the last few years where he ended up having an emotional affair with the student for a year, and then, um, they had sexual intercourse I think once, and when I read her account of that, What was really striking to me was the way that she constantly discounted her own intuition because she perceived him as knowing more because he was like 30 years her senior, he was the big head honcho yoga teacher, et cetera, et cetera.
And that's where the situation becomes so dangerous and so damaging because the person who perceives themself as least powerful discounts their. Perspective discounts their own thoughts, their intuition, their own wisdom. And then of course, what I've noticed is anytime I've done that in the past, I then feel really shitty. I feel ashamed. I feel guilty, I feel bad. And that's the shit that can go on. You see?
Yeah. So from a participant perspective, I think what's useful too in these conversations, for those of you that our students and our participants is to recognize, Whilst a teacher or facilitator might appear to have more power, ultimately all humans are fricking epic. All humans are amazing and in, and each of us is this like an infinite source of epicness and power.
And when you can access that and you can know that about yourself instead of externalizing it and going, Oh wow, that person's so amazing. It's like, So are you, you're freaking amazing too. And when, when that amazingness is discovered, then we are so much less likely to give away our power or seek a more powerful person in order to feel powerful, right?
Yes, definitely. Like I, I think that the more, the more that people explore, and I mean me included, and we learn more about ourselves, we can get to that place of understanding. That we have, we already have the answers. And yes, someone else might be saying something. It's like, Oh, that's an interesting take on that yet, you know? Yes. I'm not going to take everything on face value just because that person is the one talking, or that person is the one facilitating.
It's like, I will hear you, I resonate. There's something that I'm resonating with, yet I also have the answer. And I can feel as you're saying that, that intuition, that trusting ourselves as well as as what we are hearing from someone else, and I'm interested in currently in, in getting as well your take. With, with the case that you mentioned or any other case. So something happens, right? Mm-hmm. what now?
Because from, from, from my perspective, there's a couple of things to understand here. A lot of times, and this comes from my, my work with trauma and Family Constellation and healing techniques, most people that behave in certain. They are playing out traumas, they are playing out certain unconscious behaviors. So a lot of times people don't even know that they are doing what they are doing or the impact of that. So once something happens, it's like, okay, what now, ? Mm yeah.
This is what the piece I've always been interested in, right? Because it doesn't phase me that shit. Because that's life. We make mistakes, we fuck up, patterns play out. So I get really curious about how people respond. So I dunno if you remember John Friend, who was the founder of Anne , he went through this whole scandal and I was like, Oh, how's he gonna respond? You know? But massive scandal. I mean, the dude was convict. Multiple rapes, you know, how's he gonna respond?
Is he really a yogi? And then when this stuff happened with Rod, it was the same question. I was like, Whoa, how's he gonna respond? And I can't, I'm not gonna speak to the Rod situation. Cause I don't know, I haven't, I haven't talked to him, I haven't been around him, so I don't have enough insight to speak to it. Um, I guess the local situation I have been around and so I can speak to is more what Chu's been going through.
Maki, um, What I've seen in Matthew is that he's shown a willingness to step into the arena. You know, when Brene Brown talks about that quote from, Some Roman philosopher I think about, you know, step into the arena. If you're in the arena, you get a say. And I feel like Masu had stepped into the arena. He did, he did a whole interview with me where he was willing to be questioned about power, abuse dynamics, et cetera.
Um, and what I've seen there is that there's a willingness in him to do the work. and I also see how the patterns are really strong and really deep, and from my perspective, if we're on the path, This is about awakening, it's about realizing the self as awareness and whatever happens, is a mechanism that could potentially lead to a liberation if we are willing to dive in and let the ship burn. Um, and that's, that's the hardest work.
That's the painful thing because humans, again, coming back to status, the I self, as I call it, is all about position. And it's about defending and protecting and explaining and justifying. So when something happens, the first thing I do when I watch the person afterwards is I attune. Are they defending? Are they justifying? Are they rationalizing? Are they explaining? Because if they are doing that, they are identified with the I self. If they're curious and they're open and they are own.
What happened then it's more likely that they're actually identified with awareness and it's so incredibly humbling cuz you've gotta let, you've gotta let the position burn. You've, you've gotta let your status burn you. Often, there has to be a leading goal of the things that were. You know, um, I, I feel like it's really important though, as a community.
One thing that matters a lot to me is that we don't reject or ostracize or blame or gossip about, or talk badly of or make people who have made mistakes as such, uh, make them wrong and bad. I feel as a community, it's so important to. And hold to account with loving awareness. Those of us that are going through transgression stuff, those of us sort of facing up to our own darkness and our own shadow.
And I would love to see more of that happening in the spiritual community because some of what I've seen, particularly in Mai situation, is people rejecting him, judging him, pushing him away. And I'm just. Yeah, no, we've got work. All of us have work to do in this situation, you know? And the work, He's got work to. You know, people who've had encounters with them, transgressions, they've got work to do around boundaries and power, right?
And then those of us who are sort of on the periphery, our work is to notice if we are judging, notice if we are rejecting, notice if we are separating, and work with that. So that's what I would love to see happen in these situations is that every single person involved recognizes their own work, focuses on their own work, stops worrying so much about the other people, and goes. I mean, for me, when it happened, I started to really look at shit. Am I doing this in any way, shape or form?
And making sure that all of my interactions, particularly with men, but also, you know, women, women, um, misuse and abuse power in different ways. I think that's really important to recognize that women also abuse power. When it comes to, you know, whether it's with other women or, or men, it's not a gendered thing, it's just that how men abuse power is different. Mm-hmm.
. Yeah. Yes. I thought, you know, like you touch on a very, very interesting points and I think that's something that there's, there's this, all of these different perspectives of when something happens, it's like, well, you have like the, the door or, or everyone involved. Plus as you're saying, like the community. What can we do as people that are around this? I have seen in the past, you know, like, um, like certain.
Teachers that were not invited anymore to, to teach or to festival or to conferences. They were kind of like pushed aside and others that were still invited and, you know, I don't think there's the right answer. I think, you know, like all that I can do is, as you're saying, like ask these questions about myself and at the same time understand, okay, like there's these communities here. Here or anywhere, Like in this case, this something that's happening here in our community.
So how can we create safe spaces so that a, these things don't happen as, as perhaps, I'm not saying like everything is in the black and white, but that at least everyone is aware of this dynamic. So I think that this is the, the reason why I, I think that it's so important to have these convers. As we have these conversations, people will know, okay, like I'm going next to a class. I'm going to a workshop. I'm going to a festival, and there is this power dynamic. Can I recognize it in myself?
As soon as I see something, can I actually, you know, like stand up and be like, Okay. Like I think that there's, you know, like there's something that is not right here. So speaking up as well, It's important when those cases that, that, that happens. And I think that it's, it's such an interesting space because this is where we start, at least for me, like the, the work that we're doing as individuals, as well as the work that we're doing as collective.
And sometimes there's, you know, like different things that we need to do in, in both scenarios of both places. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . There's a lot there. One thing I wanna, um, bring attention to is what you spoke about in terms of, you know, say a teacher has transgressed boundaries, abuse, and, you know, sometimes that can be quite intense, you know, sexual abuse in Bikram's case rape. Mm-hmm.
. Um, I absolutely agree that not allowing that person to teach anymore is really important, but you can see this is, this is the difference though between rejecting someone. And putting in boundaries and holding them accountable. Is that you can say to someone, I'm not gonna have you back at my studio to teach because X, y, and Z happened, but I'm still here.
I'm holding space for you, and I'd love to see you take these actions and when I feel like you have integrated, healed, whatever, blah, blah, then we can talk about what it might feel like to bring you back into the space. Right? So the, the difference between rejection of like, I don't like how you've behaved, you're awful. See you later, you're done at. Okay. I need to put this boundary in place. I need to hold you accountable here, and I'm still here to support and love you no matter what.
That's big work. . Yes. But I'm like, what are we here for in the spirit? What do we, you know, we're doing all this fricking practice, et cetera. What are we practicing for? Practice loving the fuck out of each other. Mm-hmm. Whatever that looks like. You know, with accountability. Yeah, I think that's, you know, I see this as well on my own healing path of integrating. Um, I remember, you know, like my, my family, uh, my, my grandpa especially, like, he escaped from the Second World War.
And one of the, the sessions that I was doing during my training for Family Constellations, my teacher. Uh, brought in, into the space, the, the integrating and the healing of, and the forgiveness of Hitler. Yep. And that was, you know, like, that was for me really interesting because when he said that, I'm like, What? Like, you know, like he killer of this, but, and then it's about, I understood it's about me and.
Experience of that, my integration of that, not about not holding someone accountable, not about for, you know, like it's about forgiving what they've done. It's about me not having to hold or that not having to hold on me anymore. And I think that that is, as, as I hear you saying that if I understand correctly, like that thing from that place of love and kindness and compassion, regardless of what it is that has happened. Uh, because that's the essence of who we are. We are that love.
Yeah, we are. That. It's a, and you, and you can't, Um, it's really important to recognize though you can't fake it or leap over. So if there's an idea that I'm spiritual, I'm meant to be all loving and compassionate, but there is denial of anger or denial of grief or denial of whatever, then that's gonna lead to issues and problems. So, There is a real need to be able to process.
You know, like for example, if, you know my fixed fictitious example, if I owned a yoga studio teacher been coming regularly, I found out there's been a power abuse. And I was like, No, you can't teach there. Um, if I didn't attend to my own feelings in terms of did I feel disappointed, did I feel rageful? Did I feel grief? Right? I need to. Feel we talk about devouring, digesting, dissolving.
I fully feel my own emotional experience, own my reactivity, and only then only when we have completely felt what the situation brought up for us is it then possible to access genuine loving compassion. And that is really important and sad. You can't fake, It's not about trying to be something, it's about feeling it all, all the way through to the loving compassion.
Yeah. Yes. I think for me that, that, that is key in terms of that, you know, like feeling, experience, being able to, Process and integrate experience, whatever it is. Like this is one of the things that I like with a few of my clients, that they're more into the manifestation aspect of things. I'm like, Well, like you still need to integrate and heal like what happened in the past, because if not, then unconsciously you're putting all of that there, so we need to.
Bringing that element of like, it's not all love and peace. Like I would love it to be all love and peace and it's like, oh yeah, stuff happens and stuff comes. Can I allow myself to feel that? And for me, the key with this, I dunno, like from your perspective, perhaps with Tantra or with other perspectives that you use. For me it's about feeling it and being aware enough not to react to it, but to respond appropriately.
As I actually allow myself to feel that I'm too integrate it, not push it away, not pushing down, not like pushing it anywhere. It's literally like I'm going to feel. And now that I felt that I integrated, it's like, Okay, how do I want to respond? Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's what it's all about. Right? And, and feeling things to, to genuinely digest something. There can't be any story about. The feeling.
It's, And that's a huge shift when people begin to realize, Oh, I can actually simply, there can be a feeling, say disappointment that arises. But if my mind is going, What the fuck? I can't believe he did that. He's such an asshole. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, the disappointment's there, The disappointment's not gonna be digestive. Mm. Right. So be unhook from that story and just go, literally be with the feeling. Oh, disappointment in my heart. I can feel it spreading out like warmth.
Just being with that. Being with that, being with that. That's immersing in reality as it is, and that is what it actually means to awaken. It's not about being able to manifest what you think you want, , good luck with that. Um, although, You know, things do move with more ease, but people do leap to that because it's so attractive. It's like, yeah, if I can do this, then I can, you know, if I can clear my beliefs and you know, clear my unconscious blocks, then I can have everything I want.
And it's like, yeah. But are you down with feeling what's present right now? Like all of it, The grief and the disappointment and the rage and the anger, and the achiness and the uncomfortableness and the anxiety and the depression? How are you with that? Mm, and I think, you know, like, and. As I know that this is what you do. It's like that path of liberation. Yeah. And, and, and that is not being tied with all of those stories, with all of those judgments or of those labels.
It's literally about being with what is, instead of what we want it to be and what we wish it would be. It's like, well, what? Can I be with that? Yep, That's exactly it. And you, and, and it's not a, a great way to describe the pathon embodied liberation. So you're liberated from conditioning, right?
Conditioning might still arise in the system, but when there's orientation to awareness, It's not believed, it's not taken seriously, and eventually it's not acted out, and so it just begins to dissolve, right? Mm. Yeah. Beautiful. Uh, I, I'm just a word of our time, uh, because I know that we could talk way, way, way more, so it's just, The last two things that I wanted to to ask you. The first one is for anyone that is listening to us, what's one thing that you wish that they knew?
Mm, I wish that people knew that it's not about circumstances and rearranging the circumstances of your life in order. To feel good or in order to feel whatever you wanna feel. It's so much about burning attachment, burning a version, and, and it's here right now. Like it literally is no matter what the circumstances, that joy of being this, that bliss is always here right now. You don't have to manage, manipulate, or control reality.
in order to feel the bliss, you just need to learn how to immerse fully. Mm, No, that wasn't very short and succinct, but that's the, that's the game changer. Stop trying to rearrange shit and just learn how to be with what is beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Um, and the last thing, Kalia is forever for everyone that is resonating.
What you've been talking about, anyone that might be interested in, in working with you or attending something that you're doing, can you share work on the fund you on what's coming? Mm-hmm. . Okay, so what's coming up is a week long. It's five day immersion called Ancestral Karma. Frustrations Practice Intensive, where basically we spend five days doing a lot of practice and a lot of talking, sharing with this one specific practice.
It's a tongue practice, um, that literally burns up your ancestral karma. And it's next level. Like, oh my God, when I started, I did this for more than a year, every single day. And it just made a massive difference in how I showed up to life. So come along, learn that practice and become part of the community, um, that I'm. Growing, bleeding, generating. Um, and then if that's not your jam, I also do three month mentoring containers, which basically take you from whoa to go. Right.
It's like, here you are, where do you wanna be? Let's do that thing. Um, but it's through that lens of not getting what you want, per se, but discovering who you are. Mm. . Yeah. So beautiful. Yeah. And they can find it all on carlia.com I am assuming. Yeah. Yep. So that's my website, carly.com. You can also find me, I have an online platform called The 10 Toolbox. If you just Google it, and you can get lifetime access to that right now for like 97 bucks. Like I've just decided.
You know how we have monthly subscriptions for fricking Everything? Mm-hmm. , it was like, you know what? I hate monthly subscriptions, so I'm gonna start giving people lifetime access to my entire platform, and the introductory price is $97. I'm gonna start doubling it and then at some point I'll stop, but right. That's what it costs. And there's classes, there's webinars, there's practices, there's teachings, there's a telegram support group. Like it.
If you, if you're serious about waking the fuck up, that's where you want to come. The tan drinker tool. Beautiful. Wow. So for everyone listening, like make the most outta this offer, because currently was just saying like that's the price at this point, lifetime access to all of these tools. So yeah, I will put all of the links on the notes so that everybody can access them easily and.
Yeah, if anything resonated, if you're listening or watching us, if anything resonated or if there's anything that you'd like to share with us, please leave us a comment. Uh, and I would love always the conversation to continue. It's not just us doing this, it's everyone involved. So yeah, just let us know and. Thank you Carlia once again for taking the time for sharing with me, um, and for doing your own practice all the time and like for living your authentic life as well.
Um, yeah, just I hope that I'll see you soon on the dance floor or somewhere else. Yeah, Brian, thank you. And you know, thank you for the way you show up as a man in this community, um, particularly as a facilitator and a presenter. Really, really appreciate it. It's so good to just have that, you know, model of being this, and I love the fact that you've spoken to it and you shared your personal experience on this. So thank you so much for that. Thank you. Thank you.
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