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John middle Coff, his podcast At the Volume is three and out former NFL scout. People love him. I was at a party last two nights ago and I said I worked at the Volume. Some guy kind of knew me, and he goes, hey, I like the middle cough guy, and I said, well, so do I. So we have something in common and I just met you for the first time, and so let's bring him on. We got a lot of stuff, a lot of ground to cover
on this. I want to start with this. It's an interesting one that not that it is that important, but because I have a place in Chicago, John, and I love Chicago. I could live in Chicago. Probably wouldn't want to live there December January February, but I love Chicago. My wife loves it, and so I and I know a lot of media people there. So when I the other day, I've always found this funny that, to some regard,
you and I are information brokers. We get information and it changes all the time, and then we just I give it to the audience when I get it. So I had been told a while about eight nine, ten weeks ago, and and Caleb William's dad had done some talking. He's a big personality about some things he wanted, and Caleb started getting kind of an entitled rep and I think Caleb probably told us to hey, can you chill a little? You know, so I'd said something on the airs.
I don't I don't think Caleb's in love with Chicago. I don't think they really want.
To go there.
Caleb's people reached out to me and said, hey, we don't want to be painted like that. First of all, we know we're not going to do an lay like if we get picked. We're going to make it work. And I think that's the right attitude to have. That said, I was told USC has been called by five different NFL teams doing background checks. People are going to make offers to the Bears. So let's start from that premise.
Would you be surprised if multiple teams didn't call the Bears and make offers big packages.
They're going to get offers. I think under no circumstances. There's not an offer unless you view the gap between the next guy as borderline like minuscule. You could not take him, like you have no choice. Now, listen, scoutings in the eye of the beholder, right, it's not it's not objective that it's not black and white that there are people that view quarterbacks. I mean, they're going to be some teams that have a quarterback that goes third
or fourth in this draft that might be their favorite quarterback. Right, So it's there's no guarantee.
They just got I know a team that loves Boonecks, not Caleb level, but they think he's the second best quarterback in the draft.
Well, Caleb, part of the reason why he's such a fascinating prospect is because of his physical skills. What do the Bears just do? They hired Shane Waldron, who is a Shannon hand McVeigh. It's a very quarterback friendly, so you could offense. So you could argue, well, if Washington or the Raiders someone's throwing the farm at you, if we don't have to move back that far, especially with the Washington What if Washington said, hey, we want to move up one spot. They play it pretty easily like
we're open for business. We're open to listening to anything. We'll give you the following year's number one. You just move back one spot, you still get the quarterback you want or you're willing to take, and you get an extra first round pick in that offense. I'm telling you, what did you read the Jets story about the sala
and everything going on. Yes, One thing I was told is when Robert Sawa interviewed for the job, is one of their big pitches he brought Lafleur's brother with him, who came from Kyle, is that in this offense, you know there are sixty sixty five plays a game. We want to run it for over half. That's the Shanahan way. And then let's say there are twenty five to thirty pass attempts. Ideally, half if not twenty of those thre
aready pass attempts are gonna be schemed easy passes. Then I'm gonna need the quarterback to make ten ish plays. Josh Allen has to make thirty of those. Mahomes has to make a lot in this offense. It's very quarterback friendly. So you could argue, go with the Drake May, go with whoever your favorite quarterback is, and add the picks. Now, I would not do that. I don't think. I think the risk of having a guy with this much time
I watched him Drake May. Maybe I watched a bad stretch, but like three straight games in the middle of the year, I was like, God, I thought he was supposed to be like Justin Herbert. I'm not quite saying this, bo Nicks. Listen, I don't know, Jade Daniels. I have the Arizona taste, bad taste in my mouth from years ago. You got to adapt. I haven't watched him enough, but he's clearly a guy a lot of people like. But I'm with you.
I think that I do people at Oklahoma and the Caleb Williams dad thing was a really big deal when he was eighteen. Obviously, then he transferred. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't get to call Andy Reid, Kyle Shanahan, Belichick and Pete Carroll and expect them to pick up your phone when you're fire. They're a mother, all right. This is the big leagues. That's why they pay you the money. But I think Caleb made the right decision, Like you want to stop that because there are already some question marks.
This is not Andrew Luck when you're like, this is really you can't be that, Like he can't have the thing on his fingernails and you know his play. He's a really good prospect, but it was a little up and down at moments. He can have the hero ball syndrome. And there are legitimate questions, which for every prospect except like five in the history of sports, there are gonna be some question marks.
Well, and I think it's and I went on Chicago radio for a couple of stations. Again, I I I want to be friendly. Chicago's a place I spent a lot of time, and I have I have real respect for Chicago media. It's it's New York, LA, Chicago, Dallas, uh, you know, Boston. There's some really good media. I mean, there's there's a there's some really big market media that I have a lot of respect for.
It's an elite sports city.
Oh it's it's I mean, the teams are a mess, but the I mean, come on, it's big, loud, passionate, it's it's great, and it's my favorite big city in the country, but it's I do think sometimes you can live in a tunnel and there is a sense. I think there's a greater perception of the Bears. You know, one of their bragging points is, you know, we lost a lot of close games. Well shit, mostly in this league,
unless you're awful, everybody loses close games. But I tried to implore to them, guys, if you were Caleb Williams, think about this. Brett Faarv had eight years in Green Bay, some of those when it was a run first league, eight times in Green Bay, once in Minnesota. Thirty touchdown passes or more. Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay had eight of those. Jordan Love and his first year starting had one seventeen times with those three quarterbacks thirty touchdowns or more.
The Bears have never had a quarterback that's done that. Ever, that's great, and they've had thirteen coordinators offensively in twenty six years. It is an es show offensively, So don't be shocked if the dad eight nine weeks ago, I had heard from the camp like they're not in love with this place. And again Dad's saying one thing, Son
saying another. But I just think people will use this example, Well, the Bengals were bad and then Joe Burrow, And to that, I say, Kenny Anderson got to a Super Bowl, Boomrosias and got to a super Bowl. Joe Burrow got to a Super Bowl. Carson Palmer was fantastic, three time Pro bowler, and Andy Dalton, Marvin.
Marvin Lewis had some really good teams. I think I think went to five playoffs.
So it's like five times Cincinnati's gotten the quarterback, right, Chicago never has. So for anybody that thinks everybody in Caleb's camp is we can't wait. There are reservations they don't want. They're not if you get If they get picked, they're going. But this place in the history of the league, the worst offensive franchise offensive is the Bears. They've never had a four thousand yard quarterback.
I don't think what people understand is I knew Matt Naggie really really well, and I had some other buddies that work in the organization. It's a mom and pop operation, just like yeah, So if you think about the first two picks, you got the Bears and then you got Washington, Well, what's Washington, this new rich guy who is a big progressive thinker, who's willing to be on the forefront of everything. No expense is too small for him to He'll be aggressive.
He'll do whatever if Dan Quinn, Yeah, they'll pivot exactly. They Hey, Cliff, will double your salary. What do you do, Doc Rivers? Nick Nurse? If now Em beats her, he'll be aggressive to do something else. The Bears are the complete opposite. Like you've always very they were romanticized about the eighty five Bears. It's twenty twenty four, guys. There's a large gap between those two teams. So I don't think people quite just because it's a big brand and
a big city. They do not operate like Kronki or Jerry or Jeffrey Lourie or No. Forty. They don't have the money that they are are. They're a team that bought the franchise a long long time ago. So listen, and I heard you say this, and it's so correct. If they were to start with all this momentum this offseason and these picks, what if they start zero to three or two and five like Ibra Fluss got first
coach fired, written all over them. Well, yeah, people said it was crazy Colin to bring him back with all the options on the open, this was the time to pivot, and they just it's classic organization. They're wired like the seventies and eighties. It's it's insane. I thought it was.
And I people say, well, nothing against the guy.
He had a good he had a good second half defensively, but come.
On, but well and again people say, well, why do you like the Washington space for you know, blank quarterback? And my takeaway as because dan Quinnon is staff. It's they're going to pay elite money to get an elite staff and he can go one and five his second year. He's not going to get fired, so probably got a six year contract. Yeah, So I think sometimes and I
don't blame chicag. You're taking local calls. Once you move in a market and live in a market, you do kind of root for your local team because it makes sure your sports cast you're show more interesting. But I do think the idea that and Caleb's going to go to the Bears if they pick him, But not everybody. I mean, they've done a really good Caleb's done a good job. To say, guys, there's a way to work here.
It's like Houston defensive coach. But again, Demiko came in with a new staff, a five year contract or four year contract. The bottom line is five games in the Eberflus and Caleb Williams, they could be moving on to another staff or at least want to.
Anyway, we wouldn't have this opinion if they would have got rid of eua Fluse and hired for Abel with Arthur Smith, would be like, God's a that's a viable franchise.
Absolutely different, totally different ballgame I have. I have nothing against Iberflus, but I have two executives in the league who know him, were of interviewed with him, and they're like, listen, he doesn't capture the room. There's an there's an argument to be made he's a great coordinator, verdicts out if he's a great coach. But that's okay. It's just the point being is is I've got some good sourcing on Caleb and he's a good kid. He's emotional, he's all
about winning, and he's going to go to Chicago. But I mean, you got to take a deep breath if you are a Bears fan or live in Chicago. This is the worst franchise in the league historically on offense. They do not have a four thousand yard quarterback ever, which is hard to do. It's like the league wants it. The league basically is the opposite college football. They want parody. They don't want Mahomes dominating the league. It's just Mahomes
is great. So let's pivot to this Jim Harbaugh, who could have never gotten a Chicago job because they wouldn't pay for him and he doesn't get along with a president who was the former Big Ten president. Could you make I had Harbaugh on Friday, and I really like him and I always have and I think maybe John I just like people. I support people who are smart and successful that the audience rallies against than Harbaugh because he's different and a disruptor. You know, he's uber in
the NFL and college football can be a taxi. He is going to shake shit up and I love him for it. But could I make the argument he was always a better NFL coach and he would have been. He's built for the NFL because he doesn't play kate and college football increasingly is about kissing butt and the NFL is about winning, and he's a winner.
When I watched him on your show and kind of make the media rounds, you know, when I was around Harbaugh with the forty nine ers and go into practices, he had this like huge chip on his shoulder, which was kind of weird, right, a lot of coaches that all they'd ever done was coach trying to prove themselves. He was already really famous, his brother was an NFL head coach, yet he had this chip on his shoulder like everyone had overlooked him his whole life and everyone
was out to get him. And you watch him now, I feel like I see a different guy, definitely more mature, and the way he used to have this huge pushback against I think the media in a weird way, even though he could when he wanted to put on the charm, he could. If you watched him over the last week, he put on the charm kind of embraced it, like it's not worth it in me fighting this. I don't have the energy. At sixty years old, he looks definitely healthier.
He's thinner than he was back back. You know, ten years ago, I watched a guy that's just very at peace with where he's at and kind of knows what he's doing and isn't insecure is probably the wrong way to put it, but just it's pretty dialed in, and I listen, he can be over the top with the way he talks about players and stuff and Herbert. But I don't see how they don't win and they don't win immediately.
Have you seen their schedule, Jesus no, I don't know. The road schedule is Atlanta, Carol Liona Oh.
He plays a South oh As the wins.
So the road schedule in all only one game Kansas City. Will they have the second best quarterback. They'll the best quarterback in every game. The home schedule now Burrow, but it's at home, Lamar Jackson at home, so they get some tougher quarterbacks at home. John. They lost twelve games, seven by a field goal or fewer, most in the league by far. You can't tell me Staley to Harbaugh is not a four five point swing.
I think.
I don't think it's crazy to think they're an eleven win team.
Yeah, I mean, I think the hardball from the forty nine ers, where you know, for the first time in his life, I mean, he was fired, he was basically told you're not good enough because you're crazy, even though that eight's pretty well on his side. And then he went to Michigan, and remember he changed his offense midway through to kind of this modern spread, and he clearly
hated it. And I think once he got back to his roots, he knows his way works, so he is very secure of like my old school way of football, which ironically, Kyle Shanahan's an old school guy. Runs the ball, play defense, still works when it matters the most. He's proven these last three years in Michigan. I think you're getting a guy that's pretty dialed obviously. I mean, you just saw him win the national championship. But to me,
you get a guy who's less abrasive. I mean, there are some stories with the forty nine ers, like damn, I could understand being the owner if people got in the checks. This is kind of a third and I don't know if you're quite getting that guy anymore. And this is where I would imagine the Spaniels family feels a lot better about this. He's not gonna be fighting them all the time.
Well, think about this, Stanford complete turnaround job, Niners, complete turnaround job, Michigan. Complete turnaround job is part of what you see. He's like, shit, if we don't want eleven games, I can't coach receiver, left tackle, quarterback, back, two edge rushers, high pick, high pick. Also last year's draft second and third picks, a couple of guys front seven defensively two lead for USC and the linebacker from the PAC twelve Washington State. I think Jim looks at this and thinks,
how did they not win nine to ten games? For sure, I think this is the first job he's had where he walks it. Didn't think if I hit on three draft picks and we're reasonably healthy, we can win our division. It's not a turneriz, it's not a gut job.
Well, here's the other thing. In the NFL, Unlike college now, you have now GM essentially guys in college that help you run your recruiting. You need him with the transfer portal, but ultimately the head coach is essentially the GM in college. You need a GM in the pros, a guy that can you know from practice squad to college to free agency.
There's a lot going on, and during the season, your only tunnel vision is coaching the team in the next week's game, and I think harball what he went through with Trent Balkey, he gets a harball guy, this dude from Baltimore, which clearly he's very very comfortable with. And John Spanos he was pretty openly talking about in the press conference. He likes him a lot, and John plays
a role in scouting. So he's clearly very comfortable with their structure, which is key because the best coaches right now, ultimately Andy and Kyle and McVeigh. They're the highest guy in the total. They make the most money, but they trust their GM because they need us and you cannot his success, he's gonna be He's gonna need to lean on this guy. So he needed a guy they could trust. They hired a guy like think of all the success
he's had now taking guys from his brother. It's the one guy in the NFL he can really lean on. So when he says, hey, this guy's worth it, he's taking defensive coordinators now, he takes an assistance, you know, scouting director to make him his GM. I just think he's in a much better suited from a personal dynamic standpoint. I mean that forty nine er team he took over turned out to be pretty loaded with a lot of talent.
That team's more talent in this one, but the quarterback situation is it's pretty hard to beat.
Yeah, all right, let's talk about a little bit about the super Bowl. But I really want to dial in on brock Purdy. So I saw a stat that was interesting. I don't think you deny this. Five of the eight playoff quarters for brock Purty have not been good, and they've been a favorite, and they've been at home. So brock Purty's rate of negatively graded dropbacks in the playoffs has been twenty three percent. So that's bad. That would have been the worst in the NFL of any quarterback
with two hundred plus dropbacks. He's been bad in the playoffs. He's had a couple of great late drives Mahomes who had a much much lower, very good negative drawback rate, right, very few. It's been even better in the playoffs. It's like six percent to Perty's twenty three percent. And he's gone on the road twice against you know, Green Bay's defense and Detroit's defense. I mean one's crap, the other ones average Buffalo's defense and the Baltimore defenses especially Baltimore's
much better than Green Bay Detroit. So mahomes against much better defenses on the road, has almost no negative dropbacks almost none. Purty at home against bad defenses has an egregiously bad negative drop back.
Great.
So my take is I think this Kansas City's defense is elite. Most people just don't know anybody outside of maybe Snead and Chris Jones, but they can fricking move if Purty struggles, and I like the under is my favorite bet in this game. I think it's low scoring
if Pretty struggles, I mean, really coughs it up. Could you argue Kyle Goes he got outplayed for three quarters by Love, outplayed by two and a half quarters by lousy in the Super Bowl, that Sam Donald would go into camp battling Purty and whoever played better would win that job.
Well, I think that is a big swing guy for him, because I was text with some people. Sam just signed a one year contract a lot and the forty nine ers love him, But so does Adam Peters, who's now in Washington. And you know, maybe depending on who you draft, you bring him, you pay him a little bit more money. You kind of make him the bridge quarterback. You let that guy kind of ease into his NFL career. So
that is a team to watch. When it comes to Sam Donald, I do think the forty nine ers are very, very loyal to this guy. They really like him. Like one thing happened when Trey Lance was pretty bad for them in his starts, the team never really gravitated toward him. And when I say the team, I mean they're Star Corps players that group like he's beloved in the locker room and brought party and that buys you a lot of juice with this team. Trent Williams, Fred Warner, Nick Bosa,
George Kittle, Deebo, Samuel Brandon, Ayuk. I mean, these guys are not going anywhere, and they're some of the best players in the league. The other thing is Kyle is even in the struggles when you can run his offense. That was the problem with Trey. He like had to change his offense, and he's like, my whole thing is my offense. So that's why they loved Party. And I'm sure you saw the story Jed Yorke told him that.
Kyle in twenty twenty two in training camp said eight, I think the best this is like two weeks in the best quarterback on the roster. This guy we just drafted the seventh round. They're like what and he was. He wasn't making that up now, I was going to those practices. It's hard to tell because he's running with the threes. But they kept him on the roster for a reason, like the coach really liked him. The rain
situation in Green Bay, he was really bad. I do think the second half against Detroit, like I thought, their defense really let him down. The forty nine Ers are an offensive team. When you go back to the last Super Bowl these two teams played, the Niners were a defensive team and the Chiefs were an unreal offensive team. Well look at this this year. The Niners are the
third scoring offense. They're very dependent on Brock playing well in scoring a lot of points because their defense the last couple of weeks it's truly been leaking oil for a while. And the Chiefs are the number two overall scoring defense. So this is actually a clash between the forty nine Ers offense and the Chiefs defense. But their offense goes as Brock play, so when he's a little off, their defense is no longer dominant. So yeah, it's not
for them to win the Super Bowl. To me, he's got to be way better than he was because I don't have as much face on the faith on the defense. John Lynch was just their defensive coordinator was saying they were embarrassed by the effort in the NFC Championship game. So the defense is going through some stuff. Now when Deebo's healthy, they have so many options and you can run the ball with Christian McCaffrey. They throw a lot of quick screens. They just need Brocking out to turn
it over. And that's the one thing. He's got a lot of turnover worthy place. And when he was really humming throughout the season, when they were beating the shit out of Dallas and Philly, he was not doing that. So it just depends what guy you get. And this gets back to, well you and I I'm sure when the draft gets closed and when the draft happens, the character of these guys, the mindset of these guys. Brock's
a pretty serious dude. So like he's gone through like it's been a rough little stretch for him, but I think they like where he's at mentally. And I have actually more faith in him, the guy and the wiring than I do sometimes the physical attributes. Obviously he's a pretty good runner, but this arm, you know, can be a little hit or missed sometimes. Yeah.
I always said Dak Prescott's intangibles are an A. His tangibles are like A C plus B minus, Like, yeah, he moves over. I mean he really throws an average ball, you know. I think the other thing with brock Purty, if I was a Niner fan, I'd be a little concerned. Is Andy Reid and Spags two weeks is that pretty rain struggled road not as good big games. He's been a tad tight people. Also, John, they have more film. You got a lot on Brock now, whereas with Garoppolo,
we knew his limitations. That's why I think brought Pretty moving is essential because it doesn't matter how much film you have. If you can move, you can move. You don't know when it's coming. But I think I do think Spags and I think the Chiefs have the best corners in the league. I think if they can generate a pass rush, you know, if I was facing Pretty, my takeaway would be crowd debo, take out the bubble screens. Be prepared for him. Don't let him run brock on
play actions to stop the run. Take your chances with Ayuk over the top. If he beats you, he beats you. But take away take those bubble screens away from Deebo where he's a train downhill. I don't know, I don't. I don't think San Francisco is going to generate a ton of offense. You've acknowledged that San Francisco's pass rush as really it's kind of hit and miss outside of BOSA.
I think ideally, Kyle Shanahan at his core, is wired like a guy from the eighties or the nineties, like his dad. He wants to run the ball, and they run the ball to do two things. Established just a physical you know, set the tone physically and prove that we're tougher than you. And then their entire passing game is off that all the play action stuff that leads
to a lot of easy completions. It's why when they're successful running the ball with McCaffrey, their offense can look pretty easy because guys get wide open because you're biting on the run. And then guys they have so much talent with their offensive weapons. When you can slow down the run. It throws them off a little bit. So to me, it kind of starts with Christian McCaffrey. It's why a lot of people are saying he was the MVP threat the year because he is, I mean, he's
one of the best players in the league. They said something on the AFC Championship game it was either nance or that the Chiefs led the league this year and batted passes at the line of scrimmage like their defensive line. Well, what happened a couple times against the Lions. Hutchinson's like six foot seven batted a couple balls down. Do they
bat four balls down? Well, if you only get twenty eight to thirty pass attempts or you know, Kyle ideally would be twenty five, that's four wasted passes, right, Or does it happen once? Because sometimes Kyle's schemed pass is why it's gonna work, either as a big first down or an explosive play. If you tip that ball, and you can with Brock because he's a shorter player, it
can throw you off. That's some little thing to keep an eye on because they battle a lot of balls and Brock hast some balls to get bad, and so do they try. I don't ever understand why Kyle doesn't move it. Now. His offense is not a drop back passing game where they do right sprint options. But I would try to get him on the move a little bit more, but they just that's not really part of the Shanahan, you know operation.
So I've made the comment before John, and I'm pretty sure sure I'm right on this that winning is second in the NFL for owners to winning on their terms. The spanos is, to their credit, finally said we're going to give up some power in the building because we got the right quarterback. We don't have a Super Bowl win. We're going to go with hardball. By and large, Vrabel Belichick, who would have wanted similar personnel say, didn't get offered
a job. They're obviously much more qualified than many of the young defensive coordinators. Five of the eight coaches were on the defensive side. So in twenty twenty one, of the thirteen playoff wins, twelve were from offensive coaches. In twenty twenty two, of the thirteen playoff wins twelve, again, we're from offensive coaches. This year, Andy Kyle, both offensive guys nine of thirteen will be offensive coaches. How surprised were you or were you that five of the eight
head coaching hires. Again, these guys have no power, no leverage, not big salaries outside of maybe dan quinn House maybe I don't know what his is. Were you surprised they went back to young, unproven, defensive side of the ball guys.
Well, I don't think there was a great crop of Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh, Matt Lafleur types. Right, there was one, and he wouldn't leave. And there have been some rumors Ben Johnson didn't interview. Well, he wanted a lot of money. I heard that he is a fantastic offensive coach, right, you watch his offense, so you would you might look past that. One thing's pretty clear, and this goes back to the Harball thing. The amount of money you're paying
these guys. What's the first time no name head coach now making eight million? You know, if you have a little bit of a resume, dan Quinn, you're probably starting at twelve, thirteen, And then obviously the Harball types are sixteen to twenty, so you're paying a lot of money. And then a guy like Vrabel won't listen to anybody.
And I'm a Mike Vrabel guy, but I could understand if you put me on the if I was running the team, like wait, you're not even gonna You're just gonna be a dick to me, passed me in the hallway, not even acknowledge me. And that's more of a Belichick thing, not listening to my GM. Ultimately, this is my team and you're not getting along with it. Andy Reid ask Jeffrey Leurie what he thinks of him? Loves him? Got along with people? Was he Pete Carroll easy to deal?
You know, he's just he's nice. There is an element. Even Kyle Shanahan, who can be contankerous, kind of edgy like, does get along with Sean McVeigh. And I think part of that. You know, once you get this kind of you know, it kind of carries with you that you don't get along with people at the price points, it's not great. The other thing with Bill at seventy two years old, Bill's not going to come in and be like, yeah, just let me coach the team, hire whoever you want
to be the GM. He picks the players won that GM. What's he gonna do tell Bill who to take. So it was a tough situation. But how could you give Bill the keys to the Ferrari Even though I think Atlanta shoot a hire lessen you get a chance to get Bill Belichick gets some buzz. But I do understand the reservations from the other side of Like, Bill, we've seen your drafts. You're known for not listening to anybody, Like the Patriots have a draft board with really talented scouts,
and then Bill just goes rogue. So it's like, how can we trust you to do that? In part of Bill's deals, like you're hiring me, you gotta let me do everything, He's not saying, well, I'll just coach the team. You guys picked the players, So it's I guess it's not that shocking with those two guys. I think the defensive coaches gets back to there just wasn't a good crop of offensive guys. I mean, and once Ben Johnson didn't want in, Like who are the other offensive coordinators?
Shanahan has a bunch of young guys that he just promoted because he's lost guys the last couple of years. Bobby Slowick's a guy with Demiko very young. I mean, who's working at PFF like five years ago, so we might be two years away from kind of that crew, the Bobby Slowick's kubiak Son, who's just getting they'll start getting some jobs. But I think he kind of looked around.
I think the Washington's a good example. I thought it would be insane for Seattle to hire like john You've been a GM now for fourteen years, take a big swing. And if Ben Johnson's not interested, like I understood going with Mike McDonald, but if you're Washington, you go. So we have a culture issue, like this franchise has been just negative, we had issues. He is a positive culture guy. So maybe he's not some superstar coach, but can't he
just get the train on the tracks? Can he help a young quarterback and just in three or four years we go, you know what, we have a real organization. And then maybe you have to make a decision we need to upgrade the coach or whatever. But you get a guy with real experience. Josh Harris. His last two coaches in the NBA have been guys with a resume as a head coach. Clearly they valued that. I do think that Ben Johnson though, was a pretty big kind of wild card swing of whether it was the price,
whether it was the interview. I was told a couple of years ago he just wasn't that comfortable. He's only thirty seven years old. It's not like he's fifty. Maybe he's just like, I'm not quite ready. I'm making four million dollars. It's not going anywhere. The Lions are going to be really good. But the moment he went back, who else were you going to hire?
Yeah, that's a great point.
But it's why these it's why these offensive coordinators. You know, Cliff looks like he's going to Washington. Waldron will see what Seattle ends up doing. I saw that they were interested in Ben Grubb, you know, went to Abama with Duboor. We might see in a year or two the crop of offensive coordinators because those offenses hit on some of those defensive led teams. Those guys jolt up, right. It happened to Shanahan with Dan Quinn. You get extra credit
because you know that that guy runs. You know, he has so much juice in the building.
All right. John Middlecoff joining us for those listening to the podcast, former NFL scout, I do want to talk about this. I think it's interesting. Harbaugh College Football rearview mirror. Seya Saban had many good years, left Alabama still a top three program college football. Sea Boston College head coach Seya chip Kelly rumored to be taking a coordinator job. I do think that college football is at a point where the transfer portal needs way. I mean, listen, the
media is always going to defend the player. The media is ohways predictable young. The media has gotten much younger in my career. Why because they're cheaper As the media is getting more corporatized. You know, that's why I love the volume. You know, we pay what people we think are worth. We want, We'll take older people that are a bit more expensive. You know, we're I've worked for big media companies. They want cheap and cheap, young, idealistic
media people. Ohways, for the player. But the truth is this transfer portal is imploding the coaching industry because you literally spend all your time not only recruiting out but in you're recruiting your own players. And I've had Jay Wright had another decade. He's like, I'm out. I understand. Skrzyzewsky could have remained just I'm done. Some of it is the NFL can pay coordinators a lot, but how much of this it does feel like to me where guys are like unless you have a Clemson Ohio State.
But then I say that in Michigan and Bama's coaches left. Are we going to get to a point where an athletic director now doesn't have to worry about a college job. These guys will just take a three million dollar coordinator job and not have to recruit and deal with crap.
I went to cocktails with a guy in the SEC, or a scout that does the SEC, and he was going and he sat down with one of the main coaches and he said, one thing that has changed dramatically over the last couple of years with the NIL and which is directly correlated with the transfer portal, it's all one big transaction. Where before, if a guy was struggling a younger player, it was your job as a college coach one just to help the human grow, but to
help the player grow. Now the moment, even if you're an eighteen nineteen year old freshman or red shirt freshman, if you're getting paid four hundred grand, five hundred thousand, it's one big I'm treating you like the NFL and done will cut you. We want you to transfer, and the human element of that sport, which most of these guys playing college football are not going to pros. It's the pinnacle of their life with their coaches, why they become They form these bonds and it's all one big
giant like stock market. Now, even in the NFL, W I have a contract with you. I can't just tomorrow be like I'm out, Colin. That's not the way the world works. And in college football, like Josh Allen like, oh we blew it, I'm just gonna leave this offseason, right, We're in college, Like, see, guys, I'm out. It always well, the coaches always did it well, yeah, I mean they didn't just leave the random programs. They usually typically upgraded the program. So yeah, Kaylin Duboor left to Alabama.
Right, It's always funny whenever I hear that, Well, coaches, it's college. You're a college student. That's an administrator. College professors get tenure, college students don't. Let's they're not even the coach in college. The players not even to a coach. The contract not the way it works.
I also think the nil the amount of teams that can pay guys now at the rates in which they have to be compensated, is dramatically smaller than the amount of Power five programs we have. So Jeff Hafley who leaves Boston College to go to Green Bay, if you just look at all the people that cover college football on the X or Twitter, I can't this is great.
The NIO Boston College is probably a bottom five Power five job, like they should end up just playing like Division IE Double A football moving forward, like they have no shot. So if you're him, you're gonna get fired, right because seven wins is your max. You can't pay anyone who's available. And if you get a good player who's young, he's gonna leave. The teams in your conference Florida State, Miami, North Carol they can pay him, let alone all the other programs. Green Bay can pay you
four or five million dollars. You go there? What a green Bay's good a defense the next couple of years and their team's obviously gonna be good. He's an NFL head coach, where at Boston College, he's gonna get fired. I would say it was a indictment on the on the situation, which is obviously all out of whack. If he left a top twenty five job, right, if the damn this guy left the University of Miami, or this
guy left Texas or Oklahoma, he left Boston College? Right, Ryan Day is not leaving to be a coordinator in Ohio State, Right, He's staying there. Chip Kelly, why does Chip Kelly want? Well, One, he knows Big Ten, I'm probably in some trouble. And two like they're gonna fire me slash this sucks. He never liked that element of the sport anyway. Now would I hire him as my offensive coordinator? I mean, it seems like he tried to
get one, didn't get one. But that's UCLA is not gonna be able to compete with the ni Look at their basketball program, it's in shambles. They can't pay with these other programs are paying. So that's where I think the more and more money that comes to the SEC in the Big ten, the top programs, the nil they're paying. Look at Nebraska, Dominic Riola's kid, the number one quarterback. I played with a golf with a guy a week ago that played football at Nebraska that lives in that area.
He's like, rumors in town is the guy got four million dollars four million, which is pretty risky with a high school kid. But that's that's the going rate to get in bed with these guys. But what if he sucks? Like, what if he's not good? Is that a good? Would you pay four million dollars to a high school? This is not basketball at Anthony Davis. It's probably a fifty to fifty proposition. He's even a solid starter.
Well, I think I've argued this about Nebraska football. It is the only program that was great thirty years ago that will never come back now. I felt Notre Dame because of their the isolation, the academic, the religious umbrella. But they've proven they can win when you get a great coach Brian Kelly, and that's what he is. But Nebraska lived off Prop forty eight. They lived in a world once they left the Big twelve. That means all those Texas recruits mom and dad can't watch them every week.
I thought that was a terrible strategy. I don't think Nebraska is ever coming back, and I think their fan base full of wonderful, decent people. They still view themselves as this giant in college football, and I don't put them as a top fifteen program. So for them to say, listen, it's an offensive league NFL college football. We're gonna pivot to an offensive coach and we're gonna have to pay
to get great quarterback play. I think the only way Nebraska can be a ten win team, the only way is to do almost a Chip kellyot Oregon, which is we're going to do stuff different. We're going to play a system in which we just really have all of our talent on offense, and if we don't win, we'll be absolutely wildly entertaining and lose shootouts to the Michigan Ohio State. I think Nebraska it's it's and I think dead.
I mean, Washington's been great, disappeared, great disappear. I think MO schools that have been great can come back.
I'm not.
I think Nebraska's only way is to go get a star quarterback and a star offensive coach, and that's it.
Totally understand why they did it. It's why, like for example, Oregon, you could argue moving forward obviously was a really good job over the last twenty years. Is it a top five job in the country now? If you factor in the resources they have for in ile.
Yes, yeah, a top top seven at least.
When you have that like the Cowboys, they have this huge brand. But if Jerry signs his own guys, they never have any free agent cap space. So yeah, Jerry can have all this money, but who carry you can't sign any free agents right he never has any room where in college like Ohio State clearly spends the most. Right now, it's a huge, huge advantage right Oregon. Like Dan Lanning, I'm sure Alabama offered him the job. He's like, nah, I can win just much here and my path might
even be easier in the Big ten. And the funding, I have the access to money to sign these guys, because it's outrageous now. I think one thing that I've heard from a lot of college buddies is the power. The good part about the portal and you're at one of the top programs is you can improve the talent really fast, and when you have the money to cut
them checks. You know, an offensive lineman a couple hundred grand, a skilled guy maybe three four hundred thousand dollars, you can add five six players you're already recruiting well and mix that in and you can get good fast. That's why I do think we'll see over the next couple of years you'll see a team that we knew was good all of a sudden be a national championship contender on a given year. They may not be able to sustain it, like Ohio State or Alabama, but look at length.
I just saw something on the internet today. Incredible year. Again in the transfer portal. He could have a season where could he win a national championship if it all goes right now? Is he gonna be able to sustain it for ten years? It's probably hard at that program like an organ like an Alabama, like an LSU. But when you can pay these guys, that drives these coaches nuts. It's such a there has to be some sort of limit of you just can't leave whenever you want. That's
not how anything in society works. And like you said, the media celebrates it, loves it, of course they do. That's not the way the world works. You know. Even in college, if I want to get said coach, I have to pay a buyout, right, you got to pay. There's something coming back the other way. Okay, even Green Bay, I want to get Jeff Hafley. I'm sure they had to cut a couple of million dollar check to Boston College. If there's a by that's the way it works. Alabama
had to pay for Kaylin Duboor. He has a player. It's like, see you, I'm out of here. It's like, okay, this is not a it's not a sustainable model.
Yeah, And I think and that's and that's it's not I mean, I do think college football is a buye. I got into this discussion with somebody because I like the business. I like sports, but I like the business. And I'll throw this at you. I said, the next twenty years, because I probably have about fifteen left in this space. I think podcasting.
We're all younger now, yes, sixteen, new forty five. Yeah.
And I said, if you told me you can bet on four things going forward, you're a sports executive and at volume, I kind am, what would be the four things you had been on? And I said, NFL football, college football, gambling, and the UFC fight. When well regulated and smartly run, manage Dana White, it works. And the person said, well, what about the NBA? And I said, I love the NBA. It'll always have an audience. But I said, hockey, baseball and the NBA are getting very international,
and college football is very domestic. NFL's domestic gambling. I said, UFC is the fight business. I've always been a fan of it. They'll always be able. They'll if you can stumble every couple of years into a Connor McGregor figure, it's just going to work. But I so I when I said this, I like the NBA, but I've never felt in all the years i've watched it that the first had after the trading deadline was less relevant. I mean, they're already like fifty games in. I watch those Saturday
night games, but I'm watching the numbers. It's getting international. I'm okay with it, but Lebron and Steph they don't have the next guy. We know what the NBA when Michael left, they lost fifty percent of their audience. So again, I'm not bashing the NBA. I'm a fan of it, but give me the future in a league that's becoming incredibly international. And the NFL has taken away their Christmas Day marketing tipping point Day just said no, you're not
going to do that anymore. That's done, so they basically stole. That was a big day for the NBA. That was the They owned the biggest marketing day Christmas, four games and the NBA just squashed it.
What about Martin Luther King Day? They I mean they because of the weather, they did a doubleheader. Why wouldn't they do that? Moving forward to to two having two games on everyone's home on Monday that there were games doing three hundred thousand people on Martin Luther King Day in the NBA. But that's not a sustainable model. I think. Listen, I'm a great example. I grew up around an NBA town in Sacramento. I mean everyone when I grew up
idolized Mitch Richmond. When Michael came to town, it was the hottest ticket. You get why because you knew Michael would play, and the Kings sucked and you knew Michael would show up. I mean, here's the problem. The Warriors are just not that good. I mean, Steph had sixty last night and they lost. And the Lakers are holding on for dear life, right. So I mean you're talking two teams those guys are easily the most famous guys, and two guys that take a lot of pride and
putting on a show. I think the sports it has a lot of guys making a lot of money who just aren't worth the money. And it happens in basketball and football too. But let's think about football. Some guys get overpaid, but within a couple of years, if they're not worth it, they get cut. Oh yeah, in basketball, I signed a guy for two hundred million, Well you gotta do it because he's a max player, is he He's like the nineteenth best player in the league. And
then in two years like this is a disaster. And that started happening at a rate where and then you start factoring in the guys not playing. The urgency of the league. I do think the NFL, clearly for the foreseeable future, is such a bohemoth. It's just it's just rolling college. There's been an urgency with the regular season. Games like the Michigan Ohio State game really mattered for the last definitely the last couple of years, right, it
was felt like could be the national championship game. Now with both of them are going to be in the playoffs, does that game still you could argue in the NFL, it still feels like you knew the Ravens and the Niners the playoffs and at Christmas Night felt big, So maybe it will be unfair.
I've had this discussion. I think the twelve game playoff will replace Auburn, Alabama and Michigan Ohio State to some degree as the game because I think those guys could play a second time. So I've argued December college football always died the Sun Bowl.
You're always like, what's the Holiday Bowl? Yeah?
Now, great college football regular season? I get, I get a playoff. So I think the sport died in December, lost its momentum, and then you're like, in January, oh, there's a game in three nights. I think I think those games will replace the other big games.
There is also if you're sitting at home on Saturday night and you're like Penn State Michigan, whether both teams are going to the playoffs or not, there's a pageantry and intensity to the environment when you turn on your
TV that's hard to turn off. Yeah, you turn on lsu Ole Miss at night in Baton Rouge, You're like, you're sitting on the couch and watch it for a little bit because that town, the fans care so much, and that that will not be lost right with the playoffs, won't face the regular season of the passion of the crowds, And think about the conferences that we're gonna watch the most moving forward, are going to be the sec in the Big ten? Well, who cares the most those two conferences.
So part of it's the television product, right, Like part of a couple of weeks ago, when Stephen Lebron played, You're like, this doesn't look like the regular season NBM used to watch. And I felt like, and maybe it's just you know, romanticizing about the past and what you grew up on, but it felt like a lot of regular season games for a long period of time in
the NBA, people tried. And I think in society, when you like to get my attention and to get you know, the consumer's attention when I turn on a sporting event, are you trying? Do I feel like you're giving it? In football, you do right? In baseball, just the nature of the sport, it's hard to tell, like you just
this is a terrible gaming turned off. It doesn't matter in basketball, like it felt like there's an urgency of the players beside the top couple guys that has been mostly lost throughout the course of a season, and that doesn't resonate with people. In twenty twenty four, when I got a million options, I couldn't find a movie last night and I got seventeen streaming services, but I eventually find one because I'm gonna click on enough. We have so many things to watch that I think it's never
been harder to break through. And you know, obviously people just as you age, you get less dependent on like I have to watch this because I don't feel it matters. And the one thing football is always going to have, whether you're a college football fan or an NFL fan, it's just one game a week. It's three hours. It's pretty easy to.
Consider well, and that matters more now because we're all more caffeinated, We're all people are working second jobs. Scarcity was an advantage, it's now a significant advantage. People are on their phones more. There's other I mean, the phones replaced the television people. They're just distracted constantly. So the
one game a week was always an advantage. It now feels like unattainable for any sport to catch the NFL, and I think next year you're going to start seeing like ten ratings nationally for some of these playoffs, well, twelve to fifteens for the early round playoffs, eighteen twenties for the later rounds. Those are like, that's doubling the NBA finals. Those are big boy numbers.
Yeah, I mean, I go back to being a kid and going I remember seeing Alan Iverson score fifty and Sacramento like that version of Allan Iverson is not playing against a twenty win NBA team, And I think the moment that they've really struggled with that, and I know they've tried to put in some rules about playing when you make fifty million dollars, I'm sorry, I'm not I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want whenever I want, and the money's guaranteed it. It's just a structure of
the contract. It's the best thing the NFL is going for is I'm not beholden to a player for a seven year contract if he's not good enough. If you keep producing, we'll keep paying, but if you're not, like, they move on. So all these free agents to sign these big deals within a couple of years, half of them are on a different team because they're not worth the money.
Finally, we wrap it up John Middlikoff. When you live in California, it's fascinating to see how many people that don't live in California or never have have strong opinions about it. But I thought about you this week because I had a friend, another friend, a family leaving California. Now, the taxes here have always been high, but the spence now is high with the taxes, and it just kind of feels like it's endless.
It's going up.
The politics aside, it's priced out a lot of people. You make a very good living, you move to Arizona, So I was thinking about you. Arizona doesn't have the Mediterranean weather, but it's got a lot of sun. What is the move financially emotionally? If you'd address those, how has it been for you?
I would say it's been incredible. I mean it's the best thing I've ever done. I would say this though. About California, there are like three separate places, right There's southern California. There's kind of the Greater Bay area, and then there's the Central Valley. And my dad was a tomato farmer, so you know, I grew up in the Sacramento Central Valley area, which is a lot differently different politically than the Bay Area. Even in LA. When living in the Bay Area, the price it's not sunny like
LA or San Diego. The weather is dramatically different, so you pay the same price as, if not more expensive price. You could argue it's the most expensive place certain areas in America. And it was just like, I don't like being here anymore. So when I made the move one financially what I'm doing, it made a lot more sense. I needed kind of a jolt and a change, and
I don't regret it at all. And you know, I live in a nice house now on right down the street from a golf course that the equivalent in Palo Alto or Danville, California would have been for way less, way more money. It just didn't pencil any anymore for me. And I love San Diego, Like I started going more and more to Southern California growing up because of sports, you like, I hate the Dodgers, I hate the Lakers.
And then as you get older you go down there, You're like, damn this this, but the barry doesn't feel like that and the city, you know, it just it's a different world up there. I didn't like it as much anymore. And yeah, obviously the taxes why, but there's just a way a life part of it is. I do think Vegas and Scottsdale just a lot of California people. So there's an energy businesses are coming here, which it probably didn't feel like that twenty years ago or fifteen
years ago. There's an energy that I like here that I would imagine the Bay Area had fifteen twenty years ago. I feel like the Bay Area changed dramatically. I can't speak to southern California because I have a lot of friends that live in San Diego and they love it.
Well.
You know.
It's funny, so years ago when I was doing Local. I don't know if I've ever told the story before, it probably have.
But.
When ESPN the ESPN opening came and I left Local, so I had told that time wife, I said, I'm going to go National or just stan Portland. The only exception would be KNBR and San Francisco. I love that city. So that was like nineteen years ago. I like, I would move there. You couldn't pay me to move to the Bay Area, even though there's so much I love
about it, But it's just it's dirtier. It's different. I went there for the Super Bowl several years ago, and I'm like, I went to the same restaurant three times. I'm like, they were just parts of the town. I was in by a nice hotel. I didn't feel that.
I'm a colin. It's dramatic. That was twenty sixteen. It is. It's sad what happened. I mean, it's one of the great cities in the world, and right now it's it's falling apart. And that's yeah, and there's no putting. I don't believe New York City is a good example. And I lived in Philly, so I kind of know the way, and I know you've lived out there for there's a wiring of East Coast people, even a Democratic you know, which is the majority of people in Philly or New York.
They'll draw a line in the sand, like enough of this bullshit. I don't think that's happening in San Francisco because there's this identity politics. The moment you say, like the criminal's wrong, it's just it's kind of jumped the shark. And I don't think you're getting it back now. I didn't live in the city, you know, I lived in the suburbs, but you could feel just the change in everything that it was in a lot during COVID. It was the most extreme. That was another thing. I came to,
you know, Arizona, think nothing changed here. And that wasn't that I didn't see eye to eye with a lot of people, and it was I was tired of argue and tired of being negative about it. So I'm just like, I'm just gonna remove myself from the situation. Yeah, And I did, and I don't. The other thing is an hour and a half flight. You know, if I want to go back to see my mom in Sacramento, LA's an hour away, Vegas an hour away. Everything's pretty easy to get around out here.
So I yeah, I know, I've been watching you and I see your post how happy you are. Yeah, when I went to the super Bowl in San Francisco, and I'm and I'm socially I'm a pretty left leaning guy. But my son now lives in Portland, and you know, it's it's gotten. I mean, it's always been damped, but they are parts of town I don't want to walk around in. And I'm a six to two hundred and ninety five pound guy that works out. I'm not somebody that's bothered by you know, somebody that's you know, on
the street, Like, I'm not bothered by it. Yeah, and I try to be compassionate. But San Francisco, when I was at that Super Bowl years ago, I stayed at the Mark Hotel, I think it was called. It was up on the hill, and I'd walk around there at night and I'm like, how does a woman walk around here? Like, I don't get it at all. It's not safe, it's not So I'm glad. I'm glad that's worked for you
because I've seen some friends leave California. My wife's not a big fan in California, and I just was kind of interested in your take.
I think you did this too, you know sometimes not that I mean everything was going well professionally, but you almost get a jolt of energy when you make them. Yes, and you know, I've been lucky enough through work, been in Philadelphia, California. Do this. I feel just rejuvenated. Yes, it's not even about you know, the taxes or the politic It is just something about just waking up in a different space that makes you just meet new people, get new ideas. And it's incredible. And then that you
can't pay for that. You know, there's nothing you can do to pay for that.
I've done. I've moved cross country three times. I don't regret any of them. There's no question I have. It's made my life fuller and broader. I have so many friends. I have great friends in Rhode Island, great friends in Connecticut Northwest. You don't get it if you stay in your hometown and you know Carmel, Indiana, which is a beautiful burbon I got no problem with it. But there is something, there is something to challenge yourself a little bit.
So I'm just glad you've I'm glad you've crossed it. I watched your Twitter, I watch your social stuff, and I'm like, and just I just you seem happy. Of course, it always helps when you have an attractive person in your life.
She's done well. I love it. What are you going out to Vegas, Colin?
I'm flying in for the volume party. I'm on that treadmill, that host treadmill. So I got to be in LA so I'm flying out. I try to fly with the peeps. Have to do private to get in party. Three sales meetings cocktail back in a plane, fly out, get here at midnight, up at six in the morning, do a show.
So I'm just there for no shows in Vegas for you.
No, no, you know Fox, And I give Fox credit on this. You know when we have the super Bowl, it's different next year New d Yeah, yeah, so that'll be different. We'll probably go there a Wednesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. But Fox has never been Fox Sports has never been a company that's just going to do things because other people are doing them. And I sat down with management years ago and I said, I think radio row is
played out if people want to do it. I said, I thought at ESPN my last few years, I'm like, it's over, it's played out.
Half the interview is Joe Montana telling you about ARP or something. You're like, I don't even care. Yeah. Yeah.
So it's like I always I felt sometimes at the other place they did things because they felt a need to do them, or it was in the history. Fox is very entrepreneurial. If it doesn't make financial sense, you've got to talk them into doing it. And it's like I told my bosses, I'm like, I think it's totally
played out. I said, if you go Monday, and strangely, the Monday of Super Bowl week there's been major breaking NBA trade stories, and so it's like I said, Monday, Tuesday, do it from home if you want to do Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. I'm flying back Friday to be with my family. But I think I'm not a believer in doing things because Grandpa did them and Dad did them, and Fox to their credit, I will say this of all the companies I work for, and I've worked for several corporations, they
have their own path. They do not care if everybody else is doing something. You can see it from Fox News. They're going to do what they believe in. And as a sportscaster, we just don't do shit because everybody else is doing it. And I love that about Fox Sports.
We'll see you at the party Wednesday and beer's on you.
Yes, they are good.
See anybody the volume.
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