Hello, back to our mentors today for an Open Table episode with me and Ruth and Zoe, where we're going to think about that beginning bit of the conversation. So it's the role question in STOKeRS although we go all sorts of interesting places in this episode. I just want to say thank you because we learn these things from you when we're observing recordings, when we're talking to you in conversation. uh And we really appreciate that.
And if you want to be more in conversation with us, then check out our supervision community. Meanwhile, here's an opportunity for you to listen in on the most recent conversation that we're having about what we're learning from listening to recordings with other coaches. Off we go. Hello and welcome to this week's Open Table at The Coaching Inn. I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and today the 3D mentors are back.
So here I am in the good company of Ruth Bennett and Zoe Dickinson, and I do some mentoring, so me too, to think about what we're learning from the mentor coaching and the training that we're doing, and particularly focusing on the are the role question in STOKeRS So if you don't know about STOKeRS, check it out. I'll put something in the show notes. It's also in Simplifying Coaching. It's all over the place, STOKeRS now. It's used by coaches all over the world, which is very exciting.
Considering it emerged when you were in the room, Zoe, about 500 years ago. That does look like a long time ago. And your colleague Adrian said, I need a word. Yeah, little did we know how far this would go. Yeah, yeah. His, his, his needing a word has been quite world changing. Anyway, here we are, Ruth and Zoe and me. So opening question, lovely people, what are we learning from being a mentor this year? What's our most significant learning?
I think a theme that has come up that I've noticed and particularly recently is around, we might use the word presence, but how we are. So when we relax, when we let go a bit, you know, we do our best work. you know, trusting self, trust the process that, you know, often sort of do the shoulders like that kind of easy posture, great things happen a lot more easily.
It's all just a bit more natural, but when we... try and remember everything and do everything, it just all impacts our presence and how they show up. So that's a thread that's come up a lot recently. Hmm. Be human. It's interesting because I just did a drop in mentor coaching session just before now, which people can come to if you want to. We have drop ins a few times a year.
And we were talking about that when the dynamic shifts, when people do what they're told, or when they think they've got to do what they're told, or when we accidentally make them think they've done something wrong. And I think those things are very at the heart of what I'm learning. in the last 12 months. Ruth, what are you noticing? So Zoe, you just made me think about something which was really useful. I think one of the things is about, so moving on from that human thing to being me.
So not just being human, but being me. And I have a lot of conversations where people are suddenly going. Oh, you mean I can just be me? I'm like, yes. You you've got all these good things, ways of being and, you know, evoking awareness and all this stuff. But actually, it's about how do I be me and do these things, not trying to be a bot or somebody else. And I think that feels really strong to me at the moment.
I have, I'm working with a small handful of coaches who are going for their Master Credentialled coach with the ICF. And I listened to the first recording from somebody a few months ago. And I said to him when we talked, I said, is this you? And he went, no. I'm doing the right thing, right? And I'm going, I don't think I'm very interested in you doing the right thing. I'm much more interested in you being you first. So go away, come back with a recording of you being you.
First recording of this person being themselves is sufficient quality, more than sufficient quality to users in the application for the MCC. The one where they were not being themselves and they were following the rules was not usable. That's so interesting, isn't it?
And it has, yeah, so that came up in ours as well, Ruth, that thing of the relief almost of, oh, it's just saying I can, you know, I can laugh, can be, you know, all those lovely human things, but it is a relief and you work better then, don't you? Yeah, I had somebody yesterday say to me, we've we looked to recording that was significantly different from the other recordings we we looked at. And they said, I think I'm being myself in this recording.
I said, you're meant to be being yourself all the time. time. It's never been better. hoping for. So we're here today, covered, lovely listener with you, to have another conversation about the role question in STOKeRS, which is the one I think that brings, well, the role question in STOKeRS and the how will you know are the two that bring up the most questions. And we've talked about this before and people are still listening to that episode.
So I just thought it'd be fun for us to do another one, which is where are we now? Or how do we say what we said last time in a different way? What did we say last time? was it. don't know. Let's say what we say today. Let's go. Because for me, the role question is the partnership question. How are we going to do this? Because it's the one question that says, we don't have to do it my way.
And when we're coaching coaches, they have very different answers, I think, to when we're coaching normal people. I Coaches say, well, I'd like to think about, I'd like to, you know, use chairs or I'd like to draw something rather than a bit more of a normal answer. I'm not sure actually what a normal answer is, but it feels a little bit abnormal. Yeah, I would agree. I noticed a different, I was just processing with Claire a moment ago, there's a different reaction.
Yeah, if they haven't, if they're not a coach, if they're not familiar with contracting questions, often feels like we sort of stop a bit and there's often a, I don't know. And we move on, but there's something about, there's a bump almost of, oh, why are you asking me that? Almost like a, all that's, yeah. So there is a, yeah. I so don't agree with you. They say I don't know. You said they say I don't know and we move on and there's a bump. I think there are two bumps.
I think we say how should we do this, which lovely listener is a much better version of the question than what role would you like me to play, which is weird. I know that it begins with R in STOKeRS which is role, but reserving the right to learn. We're keeping with the R from STOKeRS, actually how are we going to do this is a much lighter question. I think there are two ruptures. I think the first rupture is the thinker goes, well, I don't know.
And the second rupture is the coach responding to the I don't know. Say more about that Claire. I think we need to learn how to respond to I don't know. And I think that coaches generally get slightly freaked inside when the thinker says, I don't know. And inside the coach is going, no, I don't know what to do. And I think that it's that that causes the rupture more than the thinker going, well, I don't know really. So learning how to respond to I don't know.
at any point in the rightsizing or indeed at any point in the conversation is really important. And I think the one thing that is almost never useful is to say, well, if you did know, because the person goes, but I don't know. you So I don't know what would happen if I didn't know because I don't know. wondering now what I say in that. I'm just trying to think. I don't know. think I just move, go on. I think I say that's OK Yeah. Well, I often say that's OK.
And actually when I say, how are going to do this? If they say, I don't know, I'd say, well, let's see how we get on then Yeah. Because it's about passing the offer, isn't it? It's between passing the offer from the coach to the thinker and back to the coach and back to the thinker. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes I'll, sorry Zoe. Sometimes I'll say, that's OK, we can work it out together. Let's just work it out. Let's just do it or something. I suppose that's my inference of that that's OK.
And I sometimes say those words and I sometimes don't, but that's probably all right as well. Cause that's being in the moment, isn't it? think I say something very similar of, yeah, that's OK, we'll work it out. Let's all, you know, where should we start? Just that, which speaks to that kind of relaxed presence of everything's OK. Whatever you say, we're OK.
Yeah. And I think if you're newer or, you know, on that journey of learning, can cause more of a, when they say they don't know, what do we do? Yeah. But for and for me, the partnership question. What I really, really, really want to hear when I ask that question is, we really don't have to do it my way. We can do it whatever way we like. I am not the leader of this conversation. I'm the facilitator of this conversation so we can work it out together. There isn't one way.
So that makes me think sometimes the answer you get is, I don't know, you tell me, you're the expert. And I find that deeply uncomfortable when somebody says that to me. And that probably is the thing that gets me more than anything. You're the expert, you tell me. I can deal with not knowing, I can deal with silence, but that bit makes me go, oh! What a beautiful description of the inner world. eh Because actually, even if that's silent, it does arrive in the other person, doesn't it?
if you feel that. Hmm, I think they can feel it. oh dear. I don't want them to feel that! I take no notice when people say that. So what do you do? Just move up? on? the thing is, you're in a bit of a bind aren't you? Because if you say I'm not here to tell you what to do, you're telling them what to do. Yes So you're teaching them that you're not here to teach them.
you can, and also you've made them think they did something wrong, which that, which early in the conversation really skews partnership. Now we're out of, we're out of being together. So I know I'm not going to tell them. And so I just, but I think it takes, it's really interesting, isn't it?
Because we're describing the outer journey, the simplifying coaching journey of knowing what to say and the inner human behind the coach, human inside the coach journey of how we are when we say what we say. This isn't a fully thought out thought, but for me, there's something about pay. I agree with you with, whatever, there are certain things that come back that we feel more or less comfortable with.
And that for me is often talk about the power of the poor, know, like, really, you don't have to, I sort of, you know, I've got on the journey of feeling I need to respond quite quickly and just, just, I don't know, just allowing a bit of space, a bit of time that I don't know, eases some of that on earth, I say. And yeah, that isn't a fully formed, you know, but it's something about just slowing down and just letting that be there for a while.
And then you... interesting because I think my I think what I was thinking about what you just said Claire was that that if I don't say anything am I am I agreeing by not saying anything and I wonder Zoe whether your pause almost gives a bit of space between what they've said and me me so that it's not as agreeing I don't know if that's right but that's where my brain's just gone Mm. Mm. So there's a cost and or a benefit, isn't there, to what we do or don't do.
And that may or may not impact flow and partnership and all those things. So it's not. What's the right thing to do? It's what's the thing that has the greatest benefit and the lowest cost. Yeah. conversation rather than for every conversation. Yeah. Yeah. This is a bit of a build but there's something around that moment. There's something around, no one's asked me that before. It's rare to be asked, how shall we do this?
And I wonder if that speaks to some of that, oh, you know, that kind of, don't know, you know, because we don't often, whether in meetings or conversations or one-to-ones with line managers. So at the time it might feel, you know, but actually I wonder, I don't know if people take away reflecting it, but there's something around ah the afterwards. ah No one's ever asked me that before and that felt quite, that's different.
And obviously that's what we're trying to do, have a different kind of conversation, isn't it? You probably haven't been asked that before, but actually we don't have to do it my way, we can do it any way we like. I love that. Yeah, I know that because that's just really, it's really normal, isn't it?
And really relaxed and One of the games we played on a, when we did Deeper Presence last year, one of the games we played was to get people to take the things that scared them, witless in coaching, and get them to receive the line and find ways of responding to it.
And I honestly am increasingly of the mind that that's a good idea because when we only think inside of our heads without opening our mouths or having an audience, If our our practicing responses is entirely thinking, we've never had the courage to say it out loud. So it's really worth finding a coaching buddy, come on our Presence Courses, you know, talk to somebody else.
but trying out some responses to some of these things in advance lowers our anxiety and therefore increases how normal we can be, I think. because it's seeing how we feel. There's the feeling of putting it out there. I just, I don't know. I'm just thinking, I love that exercise. And I remember you sharing that you did it in Deeper Presence. So I was like, cool. It takes courage, doesn't it? And that's the other theme that comes up hugely in mentor coaching.
I feel like it comes up every time we meet of, you know, courage control, that whole, the more we're willing to be brave and, you know, push into those, either in our own learning journey or when we're with someone that can really shift things, but it, you know. And I've been on the online version of Presence and it's, you know, I've never laughed so much, but it's right at the edge of your cup. You know what mean? It's slightly, ha ha, slightly terrified of what's going to happen next.
But there is, there's such stretch in that, isn't there? Yeah. definitely is. Yeah, practice and practice and practice. you
Learn your theories as well as you can and put them aside when you touch the miracle of the living soul. But as we're talking, there's something about embody, I can't, I don't think I can come up with that instantly, but embody your work as well as you can and, and, you know, practice the reps, like in an exercise. We just talked about reps. I guess that idea of it is growing a muscle, isn't it?
when we were in Transforming Conversations training, we talk about, you know, we try something in the room and then we say, you know, go away and practice that in everyday life. You know, when you're watching the news, listen for the headlines or the mood. And there's lots around just practicing this in lots of different places rather than a bit like we see. It's not something you switch on when you're suddenly coaching someone, you know, it is, it's.
You're being you all the time, trying things and learning and yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm just thinking about acting on the stage. You know, when a when an amazing actor is on the stage, they have a lifetime of formation, don't they, behind them. So when they're on the stage, they are just normal themselves or the character they're being or whatever.
I think sometimes we put ourselves under pressure by being live in the room with somebody when we haven't fully embodied and got comfortable with the thing that we're live in the room with them about. Hmm. It's reminding me of an Instagram reel I saw this morning with Mel Giedroyc talking about Austentatious. She'd just been in Austentatious, which I think is the Jane Austen improv play. And it had her at the beginning saying, I'm really looking forward to this and everything.
afterwards, absolutely buzzing. about how amazing it was, one of the best days of my life, it's been incredible. And I think that's about exactly what you're just saying. It's a lifetime of doing this thing that just became alive in this moment. And there is something about that's what we're doing in coaching, isn't it? That stuff is there and we can trust enough of that to be in this moment.
and the courage muscle is built over days, weeks, years, thousands and thousands of conversations where we're just a little bit courageous. And some people are courageous in all their conversations and some people are learning to be courageous in coaching when they might describe that in their other everyday conversations, it takes courage, but they're not being that courageous.
Hmm. Yeah. Talking about courage, the last presence training I did, that was that Deeper Presence one, Claire, wasn't it? And I, was the third time I'd done a presence training and it took me until the break to step in and step up. And I was on the edge of going home because I was like, I can't do this. I can't do this. And it took everything in me to step into the courage.
And I think that really surprised me that even though this is something that I do, I still have to step into the courage and it's not just an automatic thing. It's about putting yourself in that place and choosing that every time almost. We can't be courageous everywhere. Oh, well, I mean, we can, but it takes a learning. I wrote on the bottom of a piece of paper. know not why, but I'm going to use it here. If I went wild swimming, I'd be the one on the edge. What, not going in? Yes, correct.
I have been wild swimming. If I was to go out, I've been wild swimming in America, but if I was to go wild swimming in the UK, I would be the one on the edge and I would not jump in. So just because I can be courageous in conversations doesn't mean I'm a courageous person everywhere. It means that I've learned to be courageous. Yes. Which comes back to the muscle.
Yeah. Yeah. when I was going for my PCC accreditation and I was on that last 50 hours and I remember I was just trying to build to get this final hours and there was a sense of momentum. I was doing a lot more coaching in a concentrated time just in that last bit. And the main learning I still remember now is how much braver I got because there was just something about just, I don't know. And then I saw the impact of when I was braver. So that made me feel a little bit more brave.
And you know, wasn't like a game with someone else, but like you say, it's that build, but that was about practice and frequency. And like anything, if we stopped doing it for a while and we go back to it, we feel a bit rusty, don't we? So there is something about just keep trying things. Yeah. Yeah. So let's stay with the rule. Let's be courageous. we can sort of that. So you and Kim Witten had a conversation about role, which is what inspired us to do this.
Yeah, Kim, so Kim's quite experienced in thinking about language. And she was, you know, I was saying the reason behind we asked the how shall we do this and not using I language and and her reflection back was, but if I say how can I, for example, support you if you add the I and the you doesn't that become we was her question. apologies to Kim if I have not reflected that fully, but there's something about the actual words, how much does we matter?
Is there another way of seeing that that still creates partnership? I've been reflecting. My Mum My lovely Mum used to say, visitors first. So when we say, how can I be useful to you? We're leading with us. I'm leading with me. Thank you for saying it like that, then I had an instantaneous reaction, which I can now try and articulate. So, most conversations are led with the eye of the person with the most power. I want to do it this way. I think we should do it this way.
I think conversations should be like this. And in coaching, we're trying to do it together, which is quite a shift from how people might have experienced conversations happening before, I think. Hmm. So as much as I agree with her and love her linguistic prowess, as you well know, I think she's right grammatically, but I think in terms of leading with me. People expect the person who's perceived to have more power to be leading with me. Go on, Ruth. I also think it separates it.
If we talk about me and you, it's a separateness rather than an us. And I think there's something about what do we need? How are we going to do this? That says, this is us. This is not me and you. don't think that I'm not sure. I don't know about language, but I'm not sure it is equal. You you and me doesn't necessarily equal us. I think us is a different thing. almost, it's a different entity and that's what we want to have, the us together.
And that raises the beautiful question, which I often ask when I think they've done a lot on their own already and they're about to tell me all about it. What can we do together here that you can't do on your own? Or what can we do together here that you haven't done on your own? Yeah. which that speaks that point. haven't articulated it this way before.
There's something about people, it can feel quite lonely being with all your thoughts and in this situation, there's something about, yeah, like you said, Ruth, we're together in this and we will work out. I haven't thought about it like that. So that's a helpful way of bringing those two bits together. It's different, isn't it?
My brain's gone back to chemistry, which I don't really know anything about, but how if you put two liquids together, they don't then exist as, well, sometimes they do, I suppose, but often they just merge into each other. It's not, know, unless it's oil and water or something, they don't tend to be still their own things. It becomes a different thing.
Yeah. Which one of the things we were talking about in coaching the other week was that one of our principles of keep responsibility in the middle and sometimes we can push it too far to them. How do you, you, you, and that can feel again, a bit overwhelming of, you know, I'm almost observing or what, you know, that, that, that's not power equal either. It tips things, doesn't it? And that can feel too weighty. that takes me to the end of the conversation as well and all the language.
the we, we talk about we language for process, you language for action. So the stuff that we are doing here and now is us and the stuff that you're taking away is it becomes you then doesn't it? Slightly different. for me, it requires both of us to step in. And we both need to step in, I think, at an equal distance. you're listening online on audio, you won't see that I'm going to do a little demo with a record.
It's band-aid, do they know it's Christmas, but it fell off the wall and got a in it, so now it's a visual aid. But there's something about, if you think about, if you think about the coaching conversation here I've got a disc to represent it. We want the thinker to step in and for them to step in we also need to step in at about the same distance that they step in. So the closer we get to the middle, the more we become we.
Only for the purposes of this conversation because once they leave they're going to be you again. in this conversation we are in it together. So what you've just described is when the coach is on the outside watching the thinker take their clothes off and be naked, and it's really exposing.
And this kind of model also suggests what happens when the thinker doesn't want to step in at all, when they don't want to think, and we jump in and we're doing the kind of performance on the stage and they're not even on the disc. So getting that we right really, really matters, I think. Yeah, it's kind of matching almost. Distance, Yeah. Zoe, you're thinking deeply. Yeah, I guess it is.
I was just reflecting on that point you made of just how it's I'm reminded again how different this kind of conversation is. And so as you said, it's early on that question, isn't it? And so we're role modeling right from the get go without articulating it. This is really different. And just how important that is, because as we've often said, it impacts, you know, throughout that, you know, once that's tipped at the start, it's harder. to kind of shift that.
need to get my little STOKeRS card before I pronounce. I've just had a thought. Although we say we, what do we need to think about today or what would you like to think about today given we've got this much time? The role question is the first time that we really say we in a we way. Well, I'm just looking at my STOKeRS card, so I'll find you know, if you would either what do we need to think about as opposed to what do you need to think about? There's some we there.
There is, and I don't think they hear it as we. And maybe we need to say we a lot of times before they hear it anyway. I was just thinking about checking in as well later in the conversation how role is part of that, isn't it? So what do we need to do now? That's about role. That's well, it's about the things that we're going to do. Yeah, maybe role is a weird word, but it is the same thing. How are we going to do this next bit? Then how are we going to do this last bit?
How are we going do this? How are you going to do this? Yeah. And that really matters, doesn't it? Because particularly, well, we, it's always good to check in, but there's something around if they are, if it just feels like it's a bit stuck or something's changed or something around, we really matters at that point, doesn't it? If we start saying you, then that feels even more a bit like you said, Claire, I've done something wrong.
I've definitely had people sort of get that sense of, this isn't working. It must be me. I'm not used to, I've had someone say, I'm not used to coaching, you know, and, that it needs to stay very weak, you know, and it shifts towards the end, but it, yeah, it's really important. Yeah, because if you say, where are you now? If somebody said that to me, I'd go all by myself by the look of it. Thanks for asking. Yeah. It's quite, um, it's quite like, have you got yourself to?
And it's, that's not simply, where are we? We've started together and we're still traveling together. Yeah. We had a really big insight today in this drop in mentor group, which was about rightsizing the second half. So I asked them what they, where they felt they were strong or where they felt they could usefully develop. Cause as you know, I pick up people who were ill, missed your sessions or whatever.
And what was really interesting is that two of them said, They're really good at rightsizing, then when it gets to the middle, it gets out of control again. And in the exploring bit, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and then they don't know how to end. And so we were talking about the idea of using, when we say how we're doing, where are we, you then right size again. So in the 20 minutes we've got left, what do we need to do? Or which bit of all of these things do we need to focus on?
which can, yeah, so rightsizing all the way through. Yeah. Yeah. Because often I'm just thinking, sometimes we panic at that middle bit or they haven't got their insight, the time is ticking. And then with your little record there, it's like we step in way too far, don't we? come right in, and that tips it as well, doesn't it?
Or we go round and round in circles on the groove that we thought was the thing we agreed to do in the original rightsizing and it's changed and we haven't agreed to do the new thing. you we're obediently fulfilling the contract that we thought we established, which isn't the work at all. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. So we slipped a bit off role Ha ha. into partnership and we and rightsizing and all sorts. What are we noticing? the role is all about partnership.
Weasel's a word but it carries a lot doesn't it? um Hmm. I don't think about a different kind of conversation. You know, I still remember the first time I experienced coaching and I still remember that sense of, ah, this, this was really, I don't know if there were, I don't know if there were in power, but it just felt really, ah, you think I've got something to say. Yeah, there was a dignity maybe to it there. And I still remember that sense. And that feels really important in that wee word.
That's such a lovely word, Zoe, dignity. It's different, isn't it? um when I do it my way. I might be depriving you of your dignity. Because although I think I'm caring, I'm also saying I don't think you know how to do this, so you have to do it my way. Yeah, and how often does that happen? Yeah, so many things. Didn't think we'd go there. We've gone all over the place, yeah. So lovely listener, do join in this conversation.
If you're in our supervision community, Patreon, Claire Pedrick, there'll be a place for you to join in the conversation there. Or join in the conversation in the chat, wherever you're, whether you're listening to this on YouTube or whether you're listening to it through LinkedIn or wherever you're listening, there'll be a place for you to comment and chat and do that because we learn from each other, right? On the way.
I'm going to be thinking about this for the rest of day now, you know that don't you? thinking that, yeah. That happens in mentor coaching, it was just thinking every time we gather together and we talk as equals, I learn something. there. So lovely listener, we wouldn't be where we are today if we hadn't learned something from you. And we're very grateful for that. And thank you, Ruth. And thank you, Zoe, for stimulating the conversation.
If you want to talk to the mentors about doing some work with us, you can email us info@3dcoaching.com We'll be back next week with another episode. Thank you for listening. Bye bye. Bye.