Hello, I'm Claire Pedrick and in my mission to simplify coaching and make it less complicated. Today I'm in conversation with Piers Fallowfield-Cooper. It's the last episode of season five, so thank you for staying with us. I love this conversation. It's light, it's deep, it's really interesting. uh Piers talks about his journey to coaching and also how it has been for him being a dyslexic leader. Very interesting.
once again, uh the AI has done marvellous things with the subtitles, which are now corrected. But I think you'd love to know that this week's blooper is that my book was called The Humour Behind the Coach and not The Human Behind the Coach. uh And there's lots of conversation about humans that Piers brings up in this conversation. I think you'll like it. So listen in and enjoy. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching In. I'm your host, Claire Pedrick.
And today I'm in conversation with Piers Fallowfield-Cooper, who sounds English and right now this minute is in Australia. Piers, welcome to The Coaching In. Hello Claire, lovely to be here. Well, for those of everybody who's joined with the pleasure of just joining, they haven't been through the little frisson we've just had with trying to get the technology to work over long distance. So that was fun, wasn't it? Yes. drunk my whole cup of tea in the arriving.
Excellent. So yes, I'm here in Sydney. It's springtime. So uh lovely time of the year. The only by the way, is that unfortunately, uh Sydney City Council many years ago planted a very high number of plane trees, which do a beautiful job of shading the streets and gives it a nice green feeling. Unfortunately, at this time of year, the bark gives off a dust. And if anybody has any slight tendency for example me, to hay fever, it's absolutely appalling.
apart from that, until I've gone about a quarter mile or so, and then it settles down. So I've got the magic drops, I've got the magic tablets, and it's just about bearable. But you can tell it's that because this morning I went for a walk through the botanical gardens, and as soon as you're away from them, you know, everything settles down. So I can definitely point the finger at the plane trees. Nice diagnosis there, Piers. So tell us about your journey and your long journey. It's coaching.
It was both a slightly complicated journey and a very natural journey. I'd been running a business and we'd sold the business and I was too young to retire. I was too young and too poor to retire. Or at least I would not have lived in the style to which I wished to become accustomed. And so it was a question of what's next. And I didn't really want another big job. I wanted to do something different. So I thought... Let me write down the things that I love doing, know, what energizes me.
So in the business, there were a few things that energized me. There was kind of being CEO, captain of the ship, making things happen. I was working with my cleverest clients, the BP's, the Citibanks, the Morgan Stanleys, and that was sort of very cerebral. um And then there was this kind of growing my top team, which I'd spent a lot of time doing. which was kind of more from the heart. thought, you know, there's something in that I want to do.
So I wrote on a one page piece of paper, my new career. And I wrote down, know, my new career will be, and I remember the key things. The key things was uh something that I could do for as long as I wanted, but didn't have to do every second of every single day. Something that as long as I did it, I was making a difference to people because I really felt that's the thing I want to do next. And I wanted something where I was kind of continuing to learn and grow.
both personally and the other things. And I kind of wrote this all down and left it alone for a little bit. And the telephone rang. The telephone rang, a lovely friend of mine, he'd worked for me and he's a good friend, guy called Robbie McDonald. Robbie called me and said, I've got a dysfunctional sales team, could you help me sort them out? I said, I know how to do that, Robbie.
So was my very first piece of work, which was really quite a shock because you get a piece of work, then you had to invoice it and you have to do all these things. And then, so I started doing a bit of teamwork, which I enjoyed. And then I started doing one-on-one. And the one-on-one and the teams for me were, let me wipe away my plane tree tears. So I ended up doing about 80 % one-on-one and about 20 % with groups and teams.
So my one-on-one work, and I'm very comfortable to say this, is absolutely top class. The great architect Frank Lloyd Wright said, if I'm forced to between, I'm forced to choose between, honest self arrogance or false modesty, I'll choose on a honest self arrogance. So the one on one I'm really, really, really good at. And the curious thing is about it and teams I'm very confident that I mean, too good business.
But the key thing for me was the difference with the energy in that I would come out after doing one on one work more energized than I went in. ah Whereas the teamwork I found, I'd done it well and everything, but I was So it took me, and you're going to laugh at me and anybody who's listening will laugh, it took me 15 plus years, 18 years, to follow my own advice. My own advice is always to work with what's working.
I mean, it's just the best, mean, we can go into neuroscience and positive psychology and why it works, but it's simply the best advice. Find the bit that's working, do more of it. So I kept asking, why is... why is one-on-one work so energizing and why is teamwork so hard? Not that I wasn't getting good results, but just so energy draining. And I thought, well, with the one-on-one work, I turn up, I have an intention, but then I just follow the client and remain very present.
With the teamwork, I try and have a structure and a plan. Ah. You know, or half past 10, we're supposed to be doing this because the coffee's coming. Well, I'm moderately dyslexic, so anything like that just fries my brain. So you have to ask the question, how come it took so long to work it out? So I went to a piece of teamwork, a nice middle of executive team running a country for an international business.
And so I thought, you know what, I'm going to do this as if I was doing it one on one, but with a group of people. So I turned up, I had lots of things, more material than you'd ever need for three days. And then I just worked with them like I would normally work one-on-one. So I said, now I've got this and this. One of them was about having tough conversations, one of about this, which you think we should do first? And oh, all right, we'll do that first. And it was a dream.
And I came out energized. So now I'm very willing to do as much. And I've just come back, well, the week before last, no, yeah, two weeks ago. I was in New York working with a team and I did the same method then. And then you see what you're really talking about is you're about holding the space. Of course, we're very aware of that when we're doing our one-on-one work because that's the principal job of the coach.
The principal job of the coach is to hold the space and hold the potentiality of the client until the client can hold it for themselves. You know, that's it. So it's a bit more obvious what you're doing with a team because you're holding the space for the room. So yeah, so I've talked too much. You should ask another question. No, so many interesting things in there which we'll pick up. uh So, so quite the journey to coaching and I'm so interested by the energy thing.
My first coach had a thing about not about clients, but about, you know, just general people. And she said, we get into a world where we're with drainers, floaters or rocketers. Okay, I haven't heard the floaters. like that. That's very subtle. That's an extra one. The drainers you could smell, can't you? The drainers you come out of the room and you lean against the wall and take a deep breath. And the floaters, you don't lose anything, but you don't gain anything. So it's fine.
But the rocket has you come away with more than you went in with in terms of energy. It's very interesting. So you just dropped in there that you're mildly dyslexic. So here in the world of 2025, The world would say that meant you were neurodivergent. I know smart, trendy name. If only, if only all this conversation had been when I was probably 18, they would have given me an Apple Mac and twice as long to do the exams. And I would have been wonderful, but they didn't. So I wasn't.
Yeah. It's interesting though. I've always been very comfortable to... It's funny. My mum was a teacher, headmistress, university lecturer, but... Her specialty was teaching reading to children who had trouble learning. And she didn't recognize, I was about seven, eight-ish, that I was moderately dyslexic. Because I was incredibly good, which I think is one of reasons that I'm quite good at what I do. I was incredibly good at working out the missing bits.
And so I'm reasonably intuitive to start with, plus, you know, a life. practice what the missing bits I kind of get it very fast usually and then I have to check by asking a question will give me an empirical answer if my kind of guess is roughly on track or it was just you know rearranging them in a non-correct order eh it I laugh and it's a by the way it's also wonderful get out of jail free card If ever you're given a long form, I can't do it. And I said, all right, man.
And they rush around the desk to help you fill it in these days, which is wonderful. But, oh, you're checking in. If you're going on a cheap plane somewhere and they want you to do that, I said, need some help and modulators. They do it all for you, which is great. They make you press the button so that you actually didn't confirm, but they'll do it for you. So some days it's quite appalling. I mean, truly appalling. in that the words are a mad jumble of incoherent nonsense.
Other days it's quite good, but it often catches me out when I'm reading. I'm quite good with the numbers, the numbers kind of just all make sense. But I remember reading, was an article in the FT, a news piece. And it was about how Credit Anstalt and NatWest Bank had settled legal dispute over contracts for differences in Australia. I'm reading that and that doesn't make any sense. Why would they go to...
Now this is the worst of it, you see, because I think many people with something similar to me would say the same thing. We think differently, so now we've got whole stimulus information. We go rushing down it. And so Australia, okay, so why would they choose Australia? That's very strange. Well, good rule of law, similar to the UK, very big market in superannuation funds, still didn't make sense. So thought, okay, it's word by word time.
So you take a piece of paper and you cover it and you just, word by word. It wasn't Australia at all, it was Austria. because the bank was Creditanstalt-Bankverein so I should have thought I should have got that one. So you have all those kinds of things. And signs sometimes make sense. I remember as a kid, someone who I see occasionally now, we've got four of us, go out, I went to school with a guy called Robin Sharp, lovely.
And he lived on one of these places where there was a suburb and they built it around lots of roundabouts and things. And I came up the roundabout and... the arrow was pointing to go to the right of the roundabout. So I start to go that way, he stop, what are you doing? I said, well, he said, some kids turned it round. So, you know, I never would never cross my mind. The arrow says that way. So we go that way. So it didn't, but that's the wrong way in the UK.
So yes, so it can be fun, but there are pluses. So the pluses are that my experience of the world is different. which has its ups and downs. I see things that other people don't see and think differently, which can be valuable. And because I'm so comfortable with it and easy with it, you know, so if I'm in front of the group sometimes I say, no, you're to have to help me with the spelling because this board doesn't have a button where can press spell check.
Oh, those, words, these words like immediately. I mean, They're nightmare words. you ask me, if you put me on a desert island and said the only way off was to spell immediately and you only got three guesses a day, I'd still be on the island. I-M-M, I-M-E, I-M-A, I-M-M-I, I mean just, know, it's unknown. that you've got where you are without needing to spell immediately. But I've got, yeah. And in fact, I probably wouldn't have ended up here if I'd been... if I'd fitted in a bit more.
because I would have made more ordinary, more normal choices, but I paid huge attention. So who was it who said? Wittgenstein said, there's only two ways to have a happy life. You either find a world in which you fit or create a world to suit you. Anything else is unhappiness. So I've always found worlds where I kind of fitted and then made them my own. So I've got an incredibly high need for autonomy.
I mean, just phenomenal to the point where my parents, when I was little, took out, mum called it insurance policy, but actually it's just a savings policy. So I'd have enough money when I was 18 to buy a van. And I said, mum. Why did you think I'd want to buy a van welding? I never thought you'd be able to work for anybody else. So what am I going do with the van? Well, you could do painting and decorating. Thanks, mum. But so my need for autonomy.
So I was very lucky at the last business I was running. My chairman was in Chicago and I was running the business in the UK. So we had we had six hours time difference. 8.5 flying hours different. That was perfect. If he'd been at the other end of the hall and walked on high piers, how's it going with? That would never have worked. anybody who wants to be successful, have to ask yourself the question, know, where we started, what energizes, what do you enjoy?
Where do you feel that you're fulfilling yourself and your And you're looking forward to it, I can tell you, over my entire, with my coaching career, with my entire business career, everything, I could count on one hand the number of times I've not been blissfully happy doing it. oh I'm very adaptable, so the people who are most adaptable, most flexible are always the ones who, as long as they remain solid inside, you know, you can't...
Otherwise, know, if you're the worst combination is we're kind of fixed on the outside and flexible on the inside and they're just Nuts to deal with but if you know who you are then the flexibility I'm rambling, I'm gonna stop. You ask questions. so many things. I've got such a great example of misunderstanding. I'm also neurodivergent. And we went to an improv class the other day. It was just crazy. was in in a, in the seventies, you'd have called it a commune. It's a shared living space.
It's an old, slightly ramshackle stately home. And they were putting on this improv class and we went and we walked in and there were six people in the room and they introduced themselves. And the first one who was looked female, said I'm Brian and I thought well that's okay you can be Brian. I'm okay with that.
The next one said I'm Colin so I'm okay okay so getting a bit of a sense of the kind of space we're in that's really okay I'm fine with that it's okay and then everyone else introduced themselves and then as we went through the morning people kept calling them she and I thought that's a bit confusing because if you've decided to take on a male name I'd be I'd expect you to call your to be called they or he. Yes. Which I'm really okay with but I'm now really- We're up to speed with you.
I'm now confused. Anyway, it turned out they weren't called Brian and Colin at all. They were called Bronwyn and Colleen. But I did exactly what you did with that article, which is completely live your life as though it is what you thought it was when it wasn't at all. And the challenge of course is that we continue to run with that which we've made true in our heads and try and make everything else fit in with, you know, I wonder why this roundabout wants you to go around the other. Exactly.
So that pattern spotting is brilliant, except when it isn't. How interesting. Now I've just realised that you and I may have been in the same room. me. You were a finalist in the Business Book of the Year in 2024. Were you there? So was I. No, in, uh, oh, maybe it was a different award ceremony. I was there in West London somewhere, Wembley. Wembley, yes, sorry. Wembley and Watford, they begin with a W, they're the same place.
just do what we just let's just realize we've just done what we just talked about Yeah, it was lovely. It was a nice evening. I was so disappointed not to win. Did I beat you? don't uh was the leadership capital. That's okay then. Because we did win. Well done, you. um No, I went, I'm very, very introverted. I'm socially oh very good. I've got excellent social skills, but I'm very, introverted.
And my publisher, Debbie Jenkins, encouraged me because the unveiling for the long list was at Pearson's, know, on the 10th. And she'd usually go, don't know. But I went. I loved it because book people are nice people. are. Book publishers are nice people and it was all nice. And I went with no expectation of anything. so when... um Everybody had these all nice... And then when it was, know, and you know, they're reading them out and are you still the future? That's me. That's me.
And so was thrilled at that. Quite why I'd thought that since I'd entered a book and I'd gone that I wouldn't be on, you know, I don't know. But then of course I had no expectation, I was just thrilled. But then of course I went to Wembley, get the right W now, went to Wembley and I had expectation. They were so disappointed, so disappointed. And then of course afterwards I had all the fanties, all right, I'm gonna rewrite this with a different title and republish it.
It's a title that was wrote. The book actually is very good. It's a really good book. It doesn't quite have that... m doesn't quite have that hook. Because I wrote it for me and I wanted to capture and share. in many ways a lifetime of thinking and action. Nice. In a way that was fun and easy to read and was a page turner and the end of each chapter there's something called peers in your pocket so there's a snippet for those who don't want too many words.
every now and again I do get this little itch that says do want to do another one? And I've myself, I've done some articles which I've enjoyed. And of those actually are quite thoughtful and quite good. em What was your book about? Tell me. It was called The Human Behind the Coach. nice. So it's about how in the end the development is about us on the inside. It always is, it? always is.
Yeah. Because I've always been fascinated, know, and I've helped a number of uh newer coaches when they've started up. this is, I did my masters in coaching at Ashridge and I was talking to one of my cohort afterwards and we were both laughing. We turned up and we were sort of kind of sitting in a group and then we did the what's figural. And she'd ask us, when are we gonna get the folders? When are we gonna get on with the real stuff?
And of course it became addictive that each time we got together you did the what's figural. You end up hour and a half just, know, life changing, life changing. And of course, if we're really good as coaches. and we really pay attention then our clients are ultimately permanently challenging our belief systems, who we think we are. sometimes even challenging our almost building blocks in that sometimes you end up coaching someone who you kind of think.
These are characteristics I would not have thought. would have been the right ingredients for this role or this position. Then you have to start saying, there's your prejudice on full display. Can I ask you question that came up yesterday? I think you're a great person to open this conversation up. Somebody said this to me. We talk a lot about how do you work with neurodivergent people. So I'm writing another book about neurodivergent I hope you win again. Thank you.
But I have a question for you, which I think is really interesting, which is how, as somebody who is neurodivergent, how have you learnt to work with people who are not? I always declare very early on in the connection, including in my bio and including anything I would send them. I also tell them when we're doing a chemistry that I'm at the edge of the distribution curve.
So, you know, if they want something very different, if they want something, you know, very ordinary that looks like them in the middle, then I'm probably the right person for them. I'm just laughing, because in statistics that's called the normal curve. Just call it normal, cuz. Isn't that funny? You're at the edge of the norm. That's a curve.
um as I don't think that I... I said to a client, just when I came here, when I was working in London, something, I said, I'm sorry, I'm going to stop now. I'm going to be going to sound nutty in a minute. And he looked at me and I said, well, this is taking me. And he said, no, no, no, no. And we had a phenomenally, phenomenally interesting discussion about why something, I've got an expression, through the other end of the telescope.
So I really actively encourage people to think what does it look like from the other end? I know from here, we're doing this, you know, I always get nautical things when you say telescope, know, what does it look like? know, what does it feel like to them? So I think I'm quite good at that. And I'm also very I'm willing to be naked. So I think if you and for many of your coaches who are listening, they won't know what we mean.
For many who are listening, they will know what we mean because it is a threshold that one, and you don't have to pass it. You can be very successful without crossing over it. But for those of us who do, the great psychologist, I think it was Wilfred, was it? Wilfred Bion To misquote him slightly, when the work is really good, there should be two scared people in the room. It's smarter than that, but that's roughly it. So really, I mean, we all love it when they throw the dog biscuit.
Oh, that's a good question. We wag our tail. I've a good question. And so then we go away, happy for the next meeting. But really, if you haven't got to the point, where you start to get uncomfortable with yourself because you're not sure where this is going, I have to, at least every few sessions, I have to wonder, you being brave enough? What a really beautiful way of putting that. I love the naked thing because we have to be naked.
I tell a story in training about, if you want someone else to be naked, you have to take clothes off a bit because otherwise it's like them coming to a nudist resort and they arrive and the receptionist is completely covered in clothes, hat, gloves, beard, coat. Yep, yep, yep. Welcome, They may be dressed because they're going to have to meet the Amazon driver, you know, kind of flimsy.
But this is, this is so important, because particularly with teens, anybody who knows is the Lencioni, the triangle man. Yeah. So, and he's right, you the bottom starts with trust. Why do you want trust so you can be vulnerable? Well, it's really good. But in order to get trust, someone has to be vulnerable first. You know, so it might as well be you. If you're the facilitator, or you're the coach, or you're doing the work, or you're mentoring, whatever, whatever this broad thing is called.
which I'd like to go on to in a moment if we can. um Might as well be you. Timothy Clark, four stages of psychological safety. He's been here at The Coaching Inn. He said, we have a first mover obligation to be vulnerable. That's exactly what you've just described. you go. Yes. That's lovely. First mover obligation. That's beautiful. m Thank you. We were going to say, where were we just before? were talking about Vulnerability and trust. Somebody in the room has to be vulnerable first, you said?
No, it's gone. If it's worth it, it'll come back. Thank you for demonstrating a neurodivergent It was actually very good. It was right on. I'd come back to that. I'd never do that because we'd never get back to it. We're talking about, what did you say before we talked about, we talked about trust. We were talking about wearing flimsy clothes so that you can wear them through clothes. Going in naked. oh And then you said Patrick Lenzioni and the triangle. Yes, we're the thing.
No, it's Could have been good enough for a book, see, an idea, this is gone. What's going back to what I asked you, how do you work with it? How do you lead people who aren't neurodivergent when you are? What was really interesting was the first thing you said was I tell them. Ah, yes, that's what we were talking about. Yes, and where we were. Okay, so. If you've got a really good... Continue. Isn't it lovely, lovely listener to see somebody working it all out. Go on.
So m when you come out of coach school You've learned all these lovely things. you like to, and it's always drop an octave. Would you like to tell me more about that? How does that make you feel? All those things. And if you do what I do, which is a mixture of mentoring and coaching, which is for simplicity, let's call it some push and some pull. Yeah. There's an expectation that you are somehow the expert who's going to fix it. Do not get seduced into that one.
So I went to meet a potential client. We got on well, very bossy and... m She had this little scorched earth thing going on. Poor man brought the toast, it was clarages, breakfast. Poor man brought the toast before her eggs and scorched earth. thought, not sure about this. Anyway, I always take my clients off for an extended period of time when we start. It's just the way I prefer to work. So I take them off for a day or two days.
um If it's mostly about them and the medium-sized businesses, a day is fine. it's CEO, over. footsie business a couple of days, because you want to get the whole thing. And she described something and da da da da da da. And she said, what do think I should do? And I said, oh. uh I don't know. And she turned and she had, number one bossy woman, number two particular tone that always, you know, feels threatened slightly. She said, so why am I hiring you then?
And for some reason, I'm usually very plundered, I turned back very sharply, I said, it's really complicated. That's why I don't know what to do. It's really complicated. In that moment, time sort of stood still. And literally, in front of me, her face softened and the shoulders. And she said, is it? I said, it's phenomenally complicated. And I just released her from her, her feels stupid because she hasn't got the answers.
So, you know, this openness and honesty and can we do it together is usually very powerful. And that was so straight. You didn't translate that into anything proper or special. You just said the thing. Yeah. So one nice thing for us as coaches is actually to ask the client what they need today. Because what they need today might not be what they needed two weeks ago and might not be what you know. uh It's all about today. Yes? You sometimes have to give the client a clue.
Do you need a thinking partner? oh What do you need to do? How can I support your thinking today? I worked with a really nice lady and she was running, she was running a bank actually. And I like to break bread with my clients. Some in the coaching would be, you know, we're to be in the roof. But I like this ancient breaking bread together, you know, around the metaphorical campfire, you know, I like that. ah And I always like to ah not straight across.
Yes. Either side by side or my great preference is at the right angle. just tell me tell you it sounds like you've read all my books Really? Yes! Don't sit at 120 degrees or opposite. Sit next to them. 90 degrees. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 90 degrees is perfect for men. uh As is next to them. Women like a bit more, which I think is primal, because I think men sat talking on the savanna, waiting for the hunt side by side. And women were grinding maize, looking into each other's eyes. back at base.
So I think it's so deep within what I guess Jung would call the race consciousness. It's deep. We were on... We were on breaking bread with this lady. on breaking breaking break. Yes and she padded me and said I know I'm supposed to talk about strategy with about this and about that and all the other things but honestly just having someone to download on is so wonderful.
So before you think that what you should be doing is what you should be doing maybe what you're actually doing is what you should be doing if that makes any sense in the yeah. One of my definitions of coaching is keeping someone company while they think or in the Ignatian phrase bearing witness. And what you were doing was just bearing witness and that is such an amazing gift. But we're coming to the end Piers, I could talk to you all day.
Oh, well maybe sometime, have me back, I'd to, a lovely conversation. In fact, we can Yeah, we can break bread together, absolutely. No, I think we should have a conversation because... Sorry, we don't have to do our thinking out loud in front of whole audience, but we should do some thinking together because I think it could be something interesting. Can I say just a couple of things before we do stop? Yes. Peace. It's okay to screw up. It's okay to get it wrong. It's okay to get fired.
If you're not willing to get fired, you shouldn't be doing the job. Your pride will get damaged every now and again. You won't be as clever as you think you were, or you won't be as clever as you afterwards thought you could have been. But if you can honestly be present with someone, that's such a rare gift. in itself, it's just priceless. I agree. Good. You do sound like you're doing a review for all my books, it's so funny! If you'd like a review, you say. Because you're absolutely right.
And I think we get really bothered about, I notice coaches being really, getting really bothered about getting it right. And it only needs to be good enough. And as soon as we have that sort of performance thing in the way we are, it makes it really difficult for the other person to drop their guard and be human. And as you said earlier, you can do some work there, but it's not the same kind of work. And be patient.
You may see it very clearly, but it's a hundred times more valuable when the client works it out for themselves. I agree. Is that in one your books as well? Yes! See, I should have written your book and if I'd written your book then I could have won something. I would have been happy. Yeah, we had Karen Foy on the other day from who used to work at Henley and she said she always tells me that I wrote her first two books.
she said I was going to write a book and then you wrote Simplifying Coaching and then I was going to write another one then you wrote The Human Behind The Coach because we she you know she should be in this conversation too. Of course. Cool. No, Henley's a, I think Ashridge is good where I went. Henley is very good. And the other one that some people have done is, is it Meyer Campbell? Yeah, there's so many, there's so many coach trainings and they're also very different.
Yeah, Henley is very nice. And I liked Ashridge because it was very human centric and not too academic, although there was a strong academic base. And I managed to write a 12,000 word dissertation. But it was more the experience of being human with someone else, which was their interest. So it suited me very well. Nice. oh So if people would like to talk, that's pleasure. So your book is called, Are You Still the Future?
It's worth a read, honestly, it's nice read, it's easy read, it's a good page turner, you won't get bored, it's great. and how do people contact you? Well, with a name like mine. I once had some business cards done. They were beautiful cards. And I had them hand engraved by the last hand engraver in Scotland, actually, with my name on. give them out. That's all it had. And people would say, there's no no reason. I would say, very enigmatically, if you want me, you'll find me. So anybody so.
My name is long but very simple and interesting actually because Piers is old English form of Peter so it's Peter, Pierre, Pedro, Piers, Piers, although so it's Piers. Fallow field is the agricultural, the field you leave farrow, farrow, farrow for the year, know, three or four coils crop rotation and cooper are the barrel makers. So it's very nice. So Piers, Fallowfield, just type me in, up still come, find me everywhere.
Perfect. So, honestly, Piers, thank you so much for what a beautiful conversation we've had. thank you, lovely listener, for coming along and joining in the conversation. Thank you. So we'll be back next week. In fact, it'll be next year with another episode. Bye bye.