Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn Do subscribe or follow if you want to get every episode as it drops. Today, it's my absolute pleasure and finally to be in conversation with Dumi Magadlela from South Africa. We spoke about 100 years ago, Dumi. Welcome to our next conversation. Thank you, Claire. It feels like such a long time. It's been great looking forward to reconnecting and having a chat with you. Thank you very much for having me. Thanks to your listeners.
not going to read out your amazing biography because I always think that sounds a bit weird when the interviewer goes, I'm now going to tell you everything I think I know about him. Tell us a little bit about your coaching journey, Demi. I grew up in a place where you needed to understand that your existence is dependent on others and that partnership, collaboration, community is inherently, it's really mastering that is an existential imperative.
You've got to know that you don't exist on your own. You can't really do much on your own. You can't achieve much. You can't feed yourself or your family on your own. You need to build relationships to coexist, to exist, to live and to thrive potentially with others. So that taught me and laid the foundation for my coaching approach or approaches. ever since then, I've been studying human behavior, being a behavioral scientist.
studying that and doing research on that, understanding that humanity needs to be reminded and needs to remember that we need to reconnect with each other. So my ways of coaching were anchored in that background and also in growing up knowing that as the first born of seven children with five, six other cousins. in the family and then learning to step up and lead from that early age. You learn to navigate interrelationships much better.
You learn to master certain ways that others, Goldman and them call emotional intelligence. You learn to negotiate and know that you don't always get your way, but you get what serves everyone else best. in that laid foundations for my coaching, is integral training in coaching, which is Gestalt psychology training in that emotional intelligence and most recently, most recently focused Ubuntu coaching, is coaching with the understanding that we are inherently, inextricably interconnected beings.
Every single one of us, whether we know it or not, whether we like it or not, we're connected and we're part. of a global human and other beings ecosystem. you're telling the story I love how that's come out of your childhood learning. Yeah. And it's such a powerful thing to look back and realize what was then regarded as a tough livelihood or life growing up of poverty and so-called lack was actually full of powerful life lessons that helped shape how I see my world today, our shared world.
It's a very small planet that we live in and so connected, so interconnected that what happens in one part reverberates and echoes right across the other parts so quickly now with the technology we have. It's about understanding that when we grow up, sometimes when we're younger, those things that happen that may appear in one way.
Later on when you do look at them and learn from the past, you look at them with a certain fondness, but only select things like that, that you look back and say, that taught me that. Some things are quite hard to swallow, like being discriminated against based on things you didn't choose, like the beautiful skin you show up in, that you're just wearing your skin, that's not really who you are. It's a gift wrapping you come in.
And then someone defines that as that's how there's a box for you or your kind. You belong here and not here. That to me is really part of human limitations being limited. If you see only someone based on how they look outside, how tall, light skinned, short, whatever. Whatever external appearance that people didn't choose to show up as, can't treat people like that based on that.
It's really not being very clever because we miss out on the gifting that comes with every single one of us uniquely gifted to save all of us with the gifts that come from that one person. I've learned that and as growing up in the environment I grew up in, learned. to tap into what are you really good at? And then, now small family and you, this person is good at this and that one and that. And that's early leadership and coaching and then how to get them to do it with pleasure and with joy.
Early on as a child and learning to deploy the same skills later on as a professional, as a leader. And now as a coach, more coaxing it out of others to say, So what are you really good at? Like in chapter eight of my book on this Ubuntu coaching, it is what I call seven self-reflection questions, Claire. And those questions, I ran through them very quickly. The first one is, who am I? What do I know about who I am? Who am I?
How I define myself, how my world defines me, or those closest to me define me. That's a question many people really ask themselves. Who am I? That's the first question. The second one is, where am I? Along my life's journey, where am I? Am I still on track? Am I stuck? I taking a detour? And then the third question, self reflection question is, where am I going?
I call it the anchor question, because if you know that, then you have some kind of direction and you got to have a purpose and a vision. and some intent, some conscious intent around what you're doing with your life. That's a powerful question. So who am I? Where am I? Where am I going? And the fourth one is how will I know I'm there? There, I say I'm going. And the fifth one is what are my life's milestones and achievements? What are those things that when I get to do or achieve?
or go through and say, great, I managed. And you celebrate, yay, well done. I graduated, got married, have a business, a job, whatever it is, you aspire to. You call it milestone or achievement. Isn't that something worth celebrating? Does that save you or save others? What is that that you call a milestone or achievement in your life? What defines it? What shapes it? What is its impact? And the sixth one is, what is my support system? Who's got your back, Claire?
When really, really chips are down, who's got your back? Who is that person or thing or activity or place of space that nourishes you? For me, gardening does that. I get my hands in the soil, planting something like how I was weeding my new kale and spinach this morning. and I can have the creepiest of days. And I go into my garden and pull out some weeds or just cultivate something. And I come into my house whistling, I'm like, no care in the world. Just like that. So what nourishes you?
I pick up a good book and get lost in it. That nourishes me. I talk to my wife, my kids, or an old person and... And I love talking to elders with so much wisdom and just the genius of kids, innocence of that. You find that with elderly people also who have fewer filters than earlier in their life. Like they don't care how you take it, just speak freely in that, liberating doing that. the last one, self-reflection question number seven is, is my legacy and service to humanity?
What's my legacy and service to humanity? What will I be remembered for? So the reason I put all those together is really to understand that you can coach yourself through those seven self-reflection questions, and they can anchor you and help you find your way through whatever maze of life you encounter. Because we need those tests and challenges to sharpen and shape us to become the best version of ourselves. They said a lot there, but yeah. What are you going to make of it?
many things I want to say! Go ahead. this conversation, Dewey. You just dropped in about the way people have been treated because of the colour of their skin. And I think one of the things that I find really interesting is that... our slow capacity, my slow capacity, white people slow capacity to recognise that we come with privilege that we also didn't choose. but we have to acknowledge we have it. Yeah. And we can't pretend we haven't got it. Yeah. because I have privilege I didn't choose.
And what I really loved as you opened up the whole thing about Ubuntu coaching is that it doesn't come from research, because there's a lot of systemic work that's really great stuff that comes from Well, it comes from learning and thinking and being exposed and conversations and all those things. But what you've described about Ubuntu coaching is it comes from the ground.
comes from the way, it comes from your culture, it comes from where you were brought up, it comes from all those beautiful things. and you're coming to the same thing from a really refreshingly grounded place.
What you just shared that just maybe just reminded me something that I see around the world and as a professional coach, as a leader in coaching around the world that I get exposed to that as a practitioner and teacher in coaching and I call it a fellow traveler in the coaching journey, coaching landscape that we in. I've had situations where... some of my attend a meeting with some of my colleagues or some of my students in fact.
And some clients will choose to work with someone specifically based on specific decisions they make based on external appearance. We and they're within their right to do that. And so coach matching itself has its own issues around how people show up and the the energy, the resonance, the attunement to another when you feel I feel this person's energy better. So I should work with them in that.
I always say to some of my clients when we are having a say, chemistry session, an intercession to check if we're compatible in that way. You don't have to feel too comfortable with someone to work well with them. Sometimes you need to feel that I'm gonna be challenged here and go there. Sometimes we choose too much of an easy route. And this is what... differentiating one based on appearance or external appearance tends to do with we align much easier with and to those that look more like us.
Homogeneity is a fallacy. It's a it's an illusion because we don't know what you may look like that outside but we don't know what your genetic makeup and background really is because there people that have been shocked. find that genetically they are not who they've lived all their life thinking they are. So humanity is beautiful in that way that you can't really tell from external appearance. It's an impact of latitude and altitude and years is in a cold climate that you lose your Melanie.
You go and live in Sudan and you get some of that back. the sun, UV rays and other things, simple things like that. Science tells us that. But we place too much emphasis on that and we lose so much from just paying so much homage and respect and worshipping color of external appearance. And then we lose this connection. Same thing with geography. Geography is a lie as we know it. Look at Europe, I mean, look at what happened with the Brits with Brexit.
Look at what's happening with Africa now, since 1884 in Germany, in apportioning Africa and slicing it up saying, you get your piece, you get your piece, you get your piece. And how the Africans were not there. Today, we define ourselves based on those superficial, artificial, crazy borders that were put in by... these people that came to subdivide. And that is the biggest con ever for Africans, that those borders mean something. They don't.
My wish is that magic wand and they disappear again and people start to really connect. There are other factors now that keep people imprisoned. Again, it starts from those perceptions of external appearance. Hmm. and superficial delineations of difference. We really not as different as we think we are. But we're afraid to look through that, or look at that mirror looking at us back with brown eyes, or blue eyes, or hazel eyes, whatever. It's just mutations.
I'll get into trouble with this, so I need to be careful with this. the chemistry on homogeneity is such an interesting thing, isn't it? Because do we choose somebody who's going to challenge us because they're different? Or do we choose somebody who we perceive is going to make us feel safe, but actually comfortable? Because they feel as similar as is possible.
Yeah, I think that there is a case to be made for choosing someone that we feel comfortable with, because then we can loosen our guard a little bit and speak more freely. And that's great. But even then, we should open up the keep the invitation open for them to challenges, even those that we feel comfortable around. That's the gift that a good seasoned practitioner coach will give you as a client.
If they see that you're comfortable to even call you out on it or call themselves out on it if they're co-creating an environment where you're too comfortable to go to those places where you need to work. They need to call you out. I do that with some of my executive clients and say, so it looks like we've become very good buddies, very good friends. Are you available to challenge yourself a little more? Can I challenge you a little more?
And invite them to that space and say, now we have good rapport, so can we do some hard work? And they're like, sure. So it helps to have that, but you can't stay only in that. You need to move into the edge, to the edge. Let's move into the edge, edge of the cliff, and then jump, and then open your wings. Because they will do that. The wings will open. Otherwise, you hit the floor. It's very, very important to not stay. in the comfort zone.
One of my favorite quotations of all time for many years is by Neil Donald Watt. Your life begins at the end of your comfort zone. nice. I'll say that again. Your life begins at the end of your comfort zone. That is beautiful. That's why I love a little bit of discomfort. That is such a great audit question for coaches, isn't it? How comfortable am I? Yeah. And with myself, Claire, that's where we need to start, with ourselves.
How comfortable, or if you want to be quite tested with it, say, how uncomfortable do I make myself every day? How uncomfortable do I really, you know, how often do I go to the zone of discomfort? You see, got to go there. And if you have intent to go there, it's more fun if you do that. It's more challenging when someone takes you there. like drinking you there to the edge and then say jump. Your wings are ready. You're ready. Just jump. Your wings will open. You'll fly.
It's easier when you go there yourself and say, all right, I'm ready. Let's fly. You, as you're talking, you remind me of that quote from Apollinaire. Have you heard it about Come to the Edge? Yes, that's a beautiful one. It's a poem and yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful one. must edit and read it out. It's beautiful. I don't have it in front of me, yeah. I'll put a link in the show notes to it because it's about come to the edge and I flew. Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it.
Actually, what I was saying is informed by that. That's that's where the beauty is. That's where the learning is. And that's where growth is on the edge. Part of my training and gestural is that the clients own work happens at the edge of what they know and what they don't know. And that's that's part of that, that we grow more when we are. We're exposed to some things we don't know, we're not familiar with, but we need to get to know that. That's why the edge is so rich.
So we're talking about courage to go to be terrified and uncomfortable and all those things. I love how you haven't said anything about your global role in the ICF. I like that, but I'm going to say something about it. Because in your role as global president, I'm just curious what you notice as you have closer encounters with coaches from different parts of the world. I'm just curious what you notice about courage.
Yeah, I'll use a quick example of recently I the privilege and this is a huge privilege to travel to Athens, Greece. And this was in the beginning of November for the awarding of. what we call as ICF, the impact of coaching. Coaches that won all kinds of different categories of award for being the best in this this, but based on impact of coaching.
And one thing I noticed there was the diversity, the incredible diversity of coaches from different walks of life, different stages of their lives, different age groups, different genders, different exposures to the world, let's call it that, that were making an impact in coaching, including someone who's not a coach but who is working with coaches. supporting refugees in Europe.
and just the understanding of the impact and value of coaching and how the ICF selected these incredible human beings that are doing incredibly powerful, impactful things using coaching, the coaching modality. Let's call it the coaching channel. to impact the world. I felt so hugely privileged, I still do, from meeting some of them and them receiving those awards and seeing and listening to their stories.
I urge everyone, one of our listeners here to look out for those stories from the ICF Impact Awards recently. Because those stories, they will last a long, long time. They are so powerful in just reminding us what this work and coaching can actually do in people's lives.
It is powerfully transformational and being in the ICF, being part of the volunteer leadership of the ICF and in the role of Global Board Chair, I've had the privilege of being exposed to just having sight of what coaching is doing around the world.
It's one of the most sacred professions in modern history that leaders and human beings can tap into to become more of themselves, more humane, human within E, but most importantly, to impact their world, to impact our world, to impact human relationships, to serve our collective, our greater good. Coaching does that and being part of the ICF has shown me the actual realities of that. Previously, I worked with the ICF Foundation in a program called Ignite.
And people can look up ICF Ignite and have a look at what's happening there. It's one of under-reported, less spoken about initiative. ICF does a whole lot more but doesn't shout about it as much. The foundation does incredible work and the awards, Impact Awards are just part, just a sleeve of part of what coaching is doing around the world. It is a privileged place to be in, to see what coaching is doing around the world.
This is why I call it, Claire, it's a sacred service to humanity, being a coach. And if you're not seeking to serve as a coach, don't call yourself that. because mercenary coaching doesn't really do it. It may pay the bills, but does it make a difference? Mm. Real coaching transforms what the coach and the client and the coach and the system they're working in. That's the sacredness and impact of real coaching. that you got to see the other first as they are, not as you would like them to be.
And that's the beauty of coaching in that, because you connect and transform yourself in that point of intersection of connection called the coaching space. And let's encourage people to go look at what happened in Athens with the impact towards because I'm sure there'll be so such amazing stories there of courage and being on the edge. I want to touch on that courage thing you're talking about because that's what it's about.
Do I have the courage as a coach to pick up a figure and show it to my client? I notice you talk about they, they, they all the time. That's a figure. And this is what I'm noticing that you're separating yourself from your team or your peers. You're calling it they, they. So there's you and maybe one or two others. And they, they're others. So how much do you share? How much of that do you share with them? Of this, them, us and them part. That's called picking a figure.
Coaches, we need to have the courage to pick up an uncomfortable figure and hold it up. So this is what I'm noticing. I'm hearing from what you're sharing with me. And that takes courage to do that. Because the client comes, no, no, actually not. That was just a slip of the tongue. I actually feel I'm one of. one with them, you know, there's no us in them, we are this, but that was the point. Or they can say, yeah, we are really different because of this or that or that.
But it takes courage to do that. Some coaches live to, they are too quick to pick a figure before the figure really emerges. In photography, you say, you got to turn the lens to zoom in and to say, okay. Now I see what that is. It was blurry. Now, once you focus, number of sessions, good questions, you get the client to really crystallize what it is that they're talking about, what they're dealing with or experiencing.
And that is the work of good coach with courage to wait and not let you onto a figure. That's amazing. Wait until the lens is clearly zoomed in, you can see what it is. And then you mention it even then. It's up to the client because it's the client's figure, not yours. To say, is what I'm noticing, this is what I'm picking up. Is this what you're referring to? Or the better coaching question, what exactly is going on here? What are you noticing with what you just say now?
Let them go in with them to find that. Very, very important because you ask open-ended questions in coaching. Yeah and such a great example of courage because of course once you've done that you don't know what you're going to do next. And it's not really up to you. You can't orchestrate a conversation to be what you want it to be. It's up to the client. So coaching itself is a courageous conversation. Coaching. you really beautifully described about saying what you see with no plan.
Yeah, it's this is why I say every every coaching conversation is a new conversation. It has to be because you don't know where it's going to go. And that's the beauty of it. The client takes it where they want to. It's their terrain and their territory. They know it. They will go where they need to go, where they there's possibly an emotional charge, a psychological charge, something charged with the energy draws them to. And it's not for you as a coach to do that.
You need to the courage to stay with the client. That's your job. Stay with the client. You're not there to scratch your own itch. You need to stay with the client. Bear witness. Bare witness. love that. Bare witness and be an interested party in where the client wants to go. Yeah. bear witness and notice, I think are much more important than any great question, because the question will come out of the bearing witness and noticing, won't it?
Bear witness and notice and then have the courage to say what you're noticing. However scary those. Yeah. Yeah. And have the courage to also receive the feedback from the client that no, what you're noticing is not what is. That's your stuff. My stuff is this and the client will take you where they need to go. Yeah. Yeah, every question is an intersection. I love that. Let me just, every question is an intersection. which could go in any direction. Exactly. rather than leading.
Yeah. And the client chooses where they go. You don't. You can come with them or go your own direction, but then you're to serve the client. So you go with the client. You get the point? know that, but you've just said it in a different way. And now I think I'm beginning to know something else. Yep. right at that, every question is. if you like, you can say every conversation. I like to put it right. The question makes it more focused.
Every coaching session is an intersection, but every conversation is an intersection. But every question being an intersection, it's life. It's like happening now. Question and then where do you go from there? It's happening right now. That's the beauty of that time. Wow. What an amazing conversation! So appreciate your time today, Demi, because it's just, yeah, I shall have to go for a walk later and think about every question is an intersection. Yeah. It's beautiful talking to you always.
We should do it more often, We should, we should. I often talk about you go into a field and the coach doesn't decide which direction to go in. I've said that for a long time, which is the same as what you said, but what you said is different. But I need to that out. Yeah, it's beautiful. There are so many ahas when you have a conversation with someone and there's great rapport like we have to say, what does that mean? What is that? where did that come from?
And I've spoken about questions being intersections before, not in this context like this, but more in teaching that you are at a crossroads with every coaching engagement or conversation. The thing is, Be aware that you don't drag the coach to where you want to go. You need to be with them for them to go where they want to go. You may be holding hands, but you or you may be dancing. I like to use the dance metaphor. You may be dancing with the client, but let the client lead the dance.
I'm going to send you a of my book. Which has got a whole chapter on dancing. Nice, I'm looking forward to that. Please could you shamelessly promote your book? Just remind us the title. My mother would be, my grandfather would be like, what are you doing? It's looked down upon, self-promotion is looked down upon. So I'm so glad you didn't read my, you didn't read my profile. feel much at ease because self-promotion is looked down upon, but we're in this world now. This is my book.
Ubuntu Coaching and Connection Practices for Leader Managers by Dumisani Magadlela, PhD. I'll put a link in the show notes and then you see you didn't do it, I did it. So that's okay. Thank you very much, Claire. Really appreciate the time. Always a pleasure chatting with you. Love it. Thank you, Dumi for coming to the Coaching Inn and thank you everybody for listening. Bye bye everyone. Bye bye.