Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn. I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and today I'm in conversation with some lovely coaches from around the world to talk about crossing the bridge to full-time coaching. And I think they're a perfect combination and I hope you agree with me. If you want to get every episode as they are released, remember to subscribe or follow. No more shameless self-promotion about. podcast. Just really delighted to have you listening today.
So Jamie Fiore Higgins, Shankar Venkatraman and Andrew Richards, welcome to The Coaching Inn. Thank you. Hello everyone. so great to be here. we'll go across the screen. So Jamie, you start. Just give us a bit of a headline about you, where you are in the world and a bit about your coaching journey. So my name is Jamie. I am coming to you from New Jersey about 45 minutes outside of Manhattan. Coaching was a career change for me.
I spent 20 years on Wall Street in finance and kind of had a midlife career change. I was trained by Coactive CTI and got to be Claire and the coaching in who helped with my supervision. And I am now an ACC certified coach and happy to be here and talk about what I think is an important topic of, so you're certified, now what? Yeah. Thank you, Jamie. Welcome. Shankar. Yeah, hi Claire. Hi everybody.
I'm based in Bangalore, India and professionally I've been in the software semiconductor space for 29 years and I got introduced to this world of coaching five years back when I asked somebody in a training, I really help people to grow, but I have not got trained. So it's a hit and miss. So what should I do? And then they said, there is this beautiful room called coaching. Go find what you can find there. And I haven't left that room since.
And I'm literally at the bridge right now because I'm in a full time job and wanting to make the transition. Of course, Claire, listen to you. You helped me scaffolding my coaching journey. Andrew, I'm a big fan of yours. I follow you on LinkedIn. So I have two of my gurus here. So you look forward to the conversation. But I love that you're all at slightly different places on the bridge, which just makes it beautiful. So Andrew, hello. Hello there. Nice to see you Claire.
Nice to meet you for the first time. Well, I guess I'm over the bridge, aren't I? I'm six years into this now. I also train with Coactive Jamie. Seems like a long time ago now, back in 2018. Before that, I had 25 years in life sciences leadership, sales leadership roles. So was a commercial person and I stumbled across coaching as part of the professional development that companies sometimes allow their people managers to do.
I was kind of interested in the idea of becoming a better people leader because the people was the interesting bit for me really in the job. And they sponsored my co-active training, which was great. And I thought, well, at some point I'm going to have to give this coaching thing a whirl and the stars lined up. I took the plunge and six years later, here I am. Pretty busy coach, have to say. Pretty full most of the time. Absolutely love it. And it's a lot of fun. It's very rewarding work.
And now you're saying sensible things about business building, which I absolutely love, Andrew. Well, thanks. Yeah, it's an unexpected strand to this. I never set out to be doing that. But yeah, I'm happy to help with that. Yeah, and I loved that you posted something and I think I commented on it and somebody else commented and said, Andrea, you should go to the coach again. And we both said, he already is coming. That was. That's great. Thank you.
So, Jamie, you and I had a conversation and you brought in this concept of crossing the bridge. Tell us a bit more about what we were talking about. So when I was thinking about, what's next for me in my career? And people had said, you would be a really good fit for coaching. So I did the training. You know, I got so much out of it. I chose to do the certification and the supervision with you.
But what I found out was, although, and I can only speak for my one school of coaching, but I have found that it's kind of consistent across the board while they have wonderful curriculum to. make you a very competent and effective coach, there's not a lot of talk about what's next. And what you find is you're a lot, we're just kind of a lot of these solo practitioners floating out there.
And so in the subsequent years after my certification, I've connected with a lot of my former colleagues that I went through training with. found that those who are the most successful had what I called as a bridge. So maybe they were working at their company and their company paid for their training and now they're their company's coach. Or there was a woman who was a doctor who then transferred into her hospital as the doctor's coach.
And so the big question is, well, what if you don't have that bridge? What if you don't have that direct plugin? How can you kind of get started to build your practice amongst all these solo practitioners? And one other other thing I want to say about that is, and I've talked to you, Claire, about this, is there a lot of people who just say, I'm a coach and have never had any official training.
So not only are you, you know, standing up against a lot of people who have been properly trained, you're standing against a lot of people who are saying, I lived life and I'm a coach too. So it's like, how do you connect with that pipeline of clients? And that was the kind of conversation we have had and I think maybe one of the reasons why we're here today. Yeah, yeah, it was that conversation that just made me think, right, let's do it.
And then Shankar and I had a conversation really quickly afterwards. And here we are. So, Andrew, you're furthest over. Hmm. Never thought about it this way, but go on. Yeah, I'm far over the bridge or maybe over the hill. journey over the bridge so far has been six years. So I'm just really interested to find out a little bit about what are your big learnings.
Well, the start of the first foot on the bridge was somewhat abrupt because coming into coaching, I was coming out of a redundancy situation. That was the initial catalyst. It was like, I've got a little bit of money from a redundancy to do something with. And I thought, well, let's give it a go. For the first few months, well, a couple of months at least, it was the middle of the summer and I was just heaving a huge sigh of relief that I wasn't doing my old job anymore.
And I probably wasted a little. little bit of time there, just, you know, kind of unclenching really from all of the tension I was under. But pretty soon, the bank account was dwindling quite quickly. And I thought, well, I'm have to do something here.
And I just thought about it logically, Claire, I thought, where would my clients be as a fully trained coach, fully certified coach, which I was by then, with no clients really, bar a couple of sort of side hustle clients, where would I find my clients? And I thought about LinkedIn and I thought, they'll all be there probably somewhere on LinkedIn. I had a profile, I hadn't done anything with that profile having had it for a decade before, never posted on there or anything.
So I just started posting rather haphazardly with the results you might expect, not a lot. But then I saw other posts on there and I thought, well, hang on a minute, what's going on there? how come there's some response and some engagement going on with that content and not what I'm writing? So I just got a bit nerdy about it. I love writing anyway, so I just started studying it and developed a style of writing that seemed to work after a while.
And it took me three or four months before somebody actually messaged me and said, hey, could I have a chat with you? And I enrolled that client. And that was the first of hundreds of clients since that I've found by showing up on LinkedIn. Wow, so what was the secret sauce of the post? well, there's quite a lot to it. But I think one of the core things of it is to really write as if you're writing to a single person. And Shankar, you'll know a bit about this having done the course.
But focus your entire message to a single person who you're imagining is in a situation and write only for them. So. a lot of stuff, especially AI generated stuff is really, really bland and doesn't have any story in it whatsoever. So there's a storytelling aspect to it. There's a bit of humor in there as well. And just writing in a conversational way for a specific person who is going to be in the situations where you can imagine being helpful as a coach.
And it's really just experimenting with that. and having a lot of fun on the way. And of course, getting it wildly wrong quite often as well. Yeah, and not expecting your first post to convert. No, no, it does take some months really for it to start working. And even when you've been doing it a long time, it is somewhat sporadic as well. I'm sure you'll say the same, Claire, after your years of experience that coaching clients come in kind of weird waves like the proverbial London buses.
Sometimes you can be absolutely inundated with clients who want to work with you. Another time, do you think, I doing something wrong or different here? And of course you're not. It's just the weirdness of the universe. and a lot of serendipity as well quite often. Yeah, I mean, I'd so agree with that, because even as somebody who's in a business now with a, you know, with a bigger footprint, I suppose, I would still say that I have freelance paranoia. you does it ever go away? I don't think so.
Well, it hasn't so far for me. So I'll be really busy and then I'll look at a blank space in the, you know, there'll be months ahead that I haven't got anything in them and I'll go, no, I'm never going to have any work again. Yeah, I call it the scarcity dance. It's something we get used to as coaches. You just have to take it for a spin around the floor, park it on a bench and then carry on with what you were doing before.
that's much more respectful than freelance paranoia, I like that scarcity dance. So we're all at different stages across the bridge, think Jamie you've left the land. Yeah. What I'm hearing, which is really helpful to me and I think helpful to others is there's a bit of risk taking in this. Yeah. And I'm curious, Andrew, and I know this is your show, Claire, but I have a question.
What's it like as someone, because I think we're all in common, even though we're different parts of the bridge, we're all in common that we have had, maybe we still have, or we have had meaningful, successful careers where we were subject matter experts, I'm assuming, right? And had a lot of respect for what we did. And now I'm hearing, okay, like you're just playing around and kind of seeing what sticks. I love the fact that your content is very tailored, like who am I talking to?
I'm going to just create content targeting to that person. What did it do to you? as someone who was leaving a career of confidence and success, if maybe some posts were kind of like, womp, womp, what was that like? Sorry, this is my very Jersey directness coming through. Well, what was that like?
Rough to start with, but there's a bit, even if you're a low ego person, which I like to think I am most of the time, it's a bit of a kick in the unmentionables when you put something out there and it falls a bit flat. What helped me a lot, Jamie was, especially as a newer coach, yes, I was. qualified and things, but it was still new was to think that actually the certification may be new, but the entirety of the package of who I am as a coach is old.
I was 45 years old and I've got all that lived experience to bring to it as well. So it really helps to think of the coaching training as a nice container and channel for everything that you are as a person. It just helps you know how to hold a space, how to show up with somebody as a coach and to refine what was probably likely there all along because if you're doing this for a living, it's something you're probably naturally good at anyway. So I held onto that and it helped me a lot.
You look relieved, Jamie. Well, you know what? I love what you said about ego because I feel like so many of us, and maybe this resonates with the two of you, but for me, I, regardless of the success I had, you know, or what I shared, what I did with the world, I just had so much identity tied to my old career. And so to me, I wonder what happens when you lose that and now you have a new career. And, you know, I was just reflecting what you said, Jamie, right?
You know, because for me, somewhere, I also saw that my identity was changing in a job, right? I joined a job with a certain identity, but my identity is changing. So and over a period of time, I was identifying with this new identity as a coach and somebody who help people grow. So, and I felt less and less of my old identity. So in that sense, I guess it's a bit like, you know, from the caterpillar to the butterfly or whatever metaphor you want to use, right?
Because the identity also is, our identities change every day, right? So. But that's kind of one of the things where, you know, I identified so much with being a successful banker that it's hard when you transition to something new and maybe, you know, you're not going to be as successful in your new career from day one. Rationally, we know this, right? Rationally, we know this, but it's hard. a little bit.
And I think that's where the ego comes in and being a little bit okay with some, you know, posts that fall flat or taking a while to build something. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there have been times when I have done coaching and questioned myself, who am I to be a coach? Do I really want to be doing this? Right. So, and then it's like the bad days, which even the top sports stars have, right? But as coaches, we are so self-aware, but we are also probably the harshest on ourselves. Right?
So that's what I'm learning in this journey to be as kind to yourself as you are to others. yeah, yeah. Yeah, but You're coming from a place where you proved yourself, done that, and now, right, I'm entering a space. I loved what Andrew said, how it's like the coaching training is the container, but we bring in all the goodies from our life until now. Exactly. Because, you know, I heard in one of Rich Litvin's webinars that who you are is how you coach.
Right. So, and oftentimes I hear coaches say, well, I coached like this, but I'm not like this in real life. And I'm like, really tell me more about that. Right. How can you be very different in coaching as opposed to your real life? But that's what I keep wondering about. Jamie, what are your thoughts on that?
I quite agree with you that I feel like, well, first of all, maybe what the person means by that is, that you as a coach are kind of there to help someone, meaning to bear witness and give space. So I don't know if maybe they're suggesting that since they're not giving advice or telling people what to do, they're not bringing themselves. But in general, I feel like who I am and how I behave and how I talk and how I connect is how I coach. So I quite agree with you.
that that is a little bit, there's a little bit cognitive dissonance there for me. Maybe the person is suggesting that they don't bring their full selves because they don't give advice. I don't know. That just sounds odd to me. Cause I think that's what you bring. Yeah, that's the uniqueness you bring. And that's your ability connect with people. And that's why not every coach works for every client. yeah, I agree.
me, my clients, feel like many of them appreciate my, you know, that I was a woman in a predominantly male field. You know, like those characteristics attract them to me, my background, you know, not to say you couldn't coach them and do a great job, but I think the initial connection is that commonality. So Shankar, you talked about who you are is how you coach. And I think that being real thing really matters.
And I think I often hear coaches coaching, particularly when they've been trained or formed by me. And I'm going, don't be, you're not there to be me, you're there to be you. And until you're you, you're not having a real genuine conversation with the person that you're talking to. And there's that thing from- Timothy Clark about first mover obligation to be vulnerable. I think we have a first mover obligation to be human. Actually. Yeah. It really matters a lot.
I think that happens sometimes too with new coaches when they're so in their head to follow protocol, know, the checklists, the XYZ, even in your example, I'm sure a lot of years and, know, what would Claire do? What would Claire say? And it's like, no, it's what would you like? So I think sometimes there's a blurriness. between offerings and suggestions and then mimicking. Yeah. Yeah. But in the end, we've got to be real.
Yeah. Well, and that's why, you know, I think at the end, our own experiences and our own vulnerabilities is the power of the coaching because then it allows people to feel okay with their own vulnerabilities. Yeah, so Shankar standing on the edge of the river. With the bridge in front of you, what are your thoughts? I mean, to be honest, I didn't even know there was a bridge when I started my coach training, Claire.
I just thought, you do your coach training, you're a coach, and the world comes to you. And then you get the reality check in stages. So standing where I am, think, and having spoken to a lot of expert coaches like yourself and others, is that it's really about being convinced that I, as a person, have enough to add value.
and believe in what I'm doing, believe why I'm doing what I'm and know that when you have a strong enough why, my why is actually to enable, build a more compassionate world, to midwife a more compassionate world by helping people to be the best self. And I see, especially in the semiconductor sector I am, it's a ruthless world out there. It's difficult for people to be compassionate with themselves, compassionate with others, all in the search of the results we want.
And I think that's my learning that if we continue to be this way, it's not sustainable. So how can I make a difference? So I feel that I have something real to offer, and I need to believe in myself more. And as Andrew said, there's weakness in the universe. Believe in that, trust in that. and a path should emerge, right? That's what I'm believing right now as I speak.
It goes back to what you said earlier, Andrew, about the credibility that we bring from our whole life so far and that you weren't born on the day that you got certified. So yes, yeah, it really helps to hold on to that and to remember it. And as early coaches in our journey, we are so hungry for validation, I think, that this was a good move and the right decision. And there's a bit of delayed gratification there in two stages.
One, when you first see the results of a client and what they're achieving and the decisions they make. And of course, let's be clear when you get paid for it too, because that dollar or pound that you earn from coaching is not the same as the one that you earned as a sales leader or a banker or an engineer or anything else. Even your food tastes different when you've paid for it from the proceeds of your coaching, I think. Mm. I love that. Yeah, yes, that first, well in my day it was check.
Hahaha And you know, I can remember the name of the person who gave me my first cheque. Hmm. Now it's bank transfer, isn't it? indeed. And I wasn't trained as a coach then. They just said, I think you've got a skill in having good conversations and I'd like you to have one with me and I'll pay you. But that doesn't lead to the next one tomorrow, does it either? Because the whole thing takes time to warm up. and to get clarity.
So let's talk a bit, if you're willing, about things that have worked, but also things where you think actually that probably wasn't the best idea. Mmm. Great question. You mean in terms of crossing the bridge Claire or Yes, in terms of moving to the space. Because at some point we're trying to build up our new income in order to be able to cover some of the costs that some of the income that we've lost from our old income, aren't we?
I was talking to a fairly new coach the other day and she said, well, step one for me, this is for her, she said, step one for me was to work out actually what were my minimum monthly costs that I absolutely had to cover. And if I could earn that in the first three, four, five months, that was a really good thing. Rather than saying, I want to be earning this much to actually be realistic.
If I'm going to pay my rent or my mortgage, if I'm going to eat, if I'm going to keep the car on the road, how much do I need? And then build it up, which I thought was beautiful thing to say. Yeah, I agree with that. think, just reflecting back on the early days, I had a little bit of money behind me, but it wasn't a lot, a few months, and it soon goes down, let me tell you.
So I had a very strong imperative really to make it work, and that really fired me up to put a lot of energy out, welcoming energy out there to the audience that I was trying to communicate with. And at the same time, because at the start I was working out of a shed, I didn't tell you that. I'd built a shed on the side of my house, a bit more elaborate, had power and insulation.
I've got such vivid memories of the early days of coaching with the rain thundering down on the roof, on Zoom coaching somebody and loving that. I was feeling just like a single-handed sailor in a small craft at that point, just felt like that. And when you're doing that, you kind of... don't have anything excess on that journey to encumber you.
So low expectations of how much money you're going to generate to start with and the bare minimum needed to keep it afloat and viable so that you don't, you know, sink the thing too soon in the journey. I held onto that belief the whole time and gradually the boat got a little bigger and a bit more stable, but I still hold onto that now. It's very much a... a solo practitioner journey and there's a lot to enjoy about that. Hmm. when you get into the rapids you've got to hold on. What?
Yes. Yes. There is weather. I was like... Yeah, I love that. I enjoy that. And there is weather. Yeah. you will feel like an absolute king or queen doing this work. There's no doubt about it. There's nothing better than when you've had wonderful client sessions or several that day and you're busy. Equally, you can feel quite dejected when you've done bog standard plain vanilla or a bit ropey coaching.
You know, the client... enrollment has slowed down and maybe you feeling a bit under the weather so it really is so variable. It's all good. Yeah. So Jamie, what's your best and worst thinking of what's been happening? I think the worst was there's so many people out there who are not, think, honest and authentic about what it's really like. And so I do feel, and I've seen this in the coaching community on various Facebook pages in terms of like, we'll sign up for this and we'll get you this.
And kind of the kind of too good to be true kind of thing. So I feel like, you know, worst thing I've done is kind of almost buy into some of that, like buy into the belief where, it's just, even though it was counter to my like, you know, practical thinking, but kind of buying into that. And what happens with that is it's a double edged sword because you buy into it, which is wrong. And then you're very punitive on yourself when it doesn't work out. So it kind of has this like negative effect.
I think the positive things I've been done is just being patient with it and realistic, much like Claire, you're talking to your client. One of the things I wish I did more. And I feel like this is kind of part of that is be in community with other solo practitioners. And so I was curious too, Like Andrew, you talk about having this like independent boat. Was there like a harbor where a bunch of you were floating there to share best practices? Is there an element of that? I don't know.
I feel like there should be. there is the co-active bunch. Of course you've come from that and that's a good source of encouragement. And there are various groups and Facebook groups that have that. But yeah, you're never too far from another boat bobbing along out there in the sea. It's not like there's no one around. I've made some really good friends actually, because when you're soloing it from usually a spare room in your house, let's face it, most of us are doing that.
It does get a little bit two dimensional on screens all day. So when you actually make an effort and try and meet some local coaches who aren't too far from you, it really does make you feel like you've got colleagues again. And yeah, things like supervision help a ton as well. And I know you do a lot of that, Claire. So those things do enrich the experience for sure. But yeah, everyone makes a few wrong moves or weird decisions about what we should be doing at the start.
There's so much pressure to grow, to scale your business, to make it something way bigger than perhaps you want it to be. And also to focus on height, I hate the term, high ticket clients. It's repulsive. High ticket clients or more corporate work. I got a little lured into that at the start thinking that that's what I should focus on. And police have said that over time, I've realized that that's not the kind of coaching I enjoy the most.
It is Joe Public, who finds me on LinkedIn, who's paying with their own money and who really wants some help with a bunch of stuff. And they've decided that I'm a good person to do that with. It's an honor for a start, but they're so focused on getting maximum investment return.
And to me, that's much more fun than... the kind of coaching you can find yourself doing sometimes in companies where it can get a bit bland because the client has been provided the coaching alongside the free dental plan and fruit on Friday. Yeah. No, that's true. work. Yeah, yeah. I don't gravitate towards it. I mean, I do some of it now and then, but I try and bend it towards the kind of coaching I normally do. Yeah, yeah. So Shankar. What are you thinking as you stand there?
about the best and the worst in terms of the bridge. was the equation. For me, the worst part was I thought that once I'm certified and trained in an organization, I'm going to get lapped up saying, why didn't you do this and why didn't you do that? And was very surprised when that didn't And to be honest, did feel a bit hurt as well. And the best part is, you know, I realized that there are so many experienced coaches out there who are just willing to share their expertise.
And now with Zoom and things like Riverside, you can talk to coaches all around the world. it's like, you don't need a visa if you're a coach to talk to anybody, right? They're all over the world and you can learn from them. So I think I should have done that earlier in my coaching journey, because I said, once I have my ACC and I feel I'm ready, then I will think about the business side, right? which I think doesn't make sense if I were to do it all over again.
So that's what I'm thinking right now. Yeah, yeah, there's something about. sequencing isn't there? That actually how do we have the conversations now that we need to be having with people and the conversations that I'm having now might lead to work in two or three years time. I had a conversation just before this call with somebody where we had the conversation and they'd committed by the end of the 10 minutes. That is not normal. In fact, it's so not normal you kind of go, really?
Yeah, it's a bit surprising when that happens, isn't it? But it needs to be the right time, we need to be the right person. You know, there's a lot of dating that goes on in this game. And I think that finding spaces to engage in conversation with people who know people who might want coaching is really useful. could be so, as much as I absolutely agree about the harbor.
and being with other solopreneurs, there's also something about getting out into spaces where there aren't a lot of coaches and where people may actually be looking for coaching, which is a different space altogether, isn't it? Yeah, and Claire, think what you said really resonated with me along with what Andrew said, right? Because my feeling is somewhere there is coaching is so much focused on the C suit and the executive leadership, right?
And I see the real challenge personally for me is in the middle manager space. And I have been there myself, you have pressure from the top, pressure from the bottom, pressure from the side. And you have had no personal development experience, no exposure to self-awareness, and then you're in the middle of this. then organizations typically say, you're the manager, you need to know how to deal with this. But you're not born being a manager, right? Somebody needs to nurture that.
to me, we should go to where Andrew said Joe public, for me, probably will be Joe middle manager, right? So those are the places where we can really take coaching to make a difference to the world. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly true that LinkedIn in particular seems like it's absolutely inundating with coaches. Every second person profile is some kind of coach or consultant or mentor.
I think it maybe over indexes on that a bit because of course LinkedIn has got hundreds of millions of people on it. And it's just that the coaches are the ones that are showing up and creating the content and doing the posting. So don't get the idea that It's only coaches there, there's the whole world there. And I think there is space for all coaches because when you think about it, to be successful, you don't have to work with that many people in a year really. I what is it?
40 or 50 people perhaps you might work with if you're fortunate in a year. It's a tiny amount of people in proportion to the amount of people that need some kind of help at any one point. That's worth remembering. Yes, yes, we don't have to do everything all at the same time. And I think honesty really matters. I often meet people who tell me what they're doing and I know that they're not. And it doesn't matter that they're not.
Because there's always going to be a time when you're in this journey where you're not. But there's something about honesty and not neediness. Yeah, and being real. Mm. Yeah, I mean, there's an assumption that after some years as a fully booked up coach, you're coaching hours and hours a day. That's not always the case either. Rarely do I do more than five hours of coaching a day. More likely it's two or three quite often.
But the effort required to generate that work is what takes the rest of the time in my experience. Exactly. Yeah, Jamie. Yeah, I have a question. I'm always having questions. So, Andrew, you talked about really using LinkedIn as your kind of platform to kind of start it all going. And Claire, I loved what you said to me. It's like planting seeds. Like I do a lot of things, meet a lot of people. It's like you never know. I always say, who knows what will come of it down the road.
So What are some other things, I know Claire, we were kind of joking about the clients through the corporations who get it along with their teeth cleaning, but is there elements of first someone building a bridge, right? Like you can have a presence on LinkedIn, be part of affinity groups to kind of again, plant the seeds. What about those organizations who hire coaches? through, you know, and then place you through, is that an option for a bridge for new practitioners?
That's an option if you've got the right CV or resume. It's not an option for everybody. Mm. Yeah, I concur with that. You're talking about coaching panels, right, Jamie? I'm talking about coaching corporations who sell their services directly to companies as a benefit, and you're a solo practitioner who works for them. So there's a couple of different things there. So you're talking about the likes of Coach Hub or Better Up or what have you.
I'm just trying to offer different ways to build bridges. I think that it surprises me how high the bar is to get going with some of those companies given what the return is for the coach in those situations. I don't do that myself as work because the rates of pay aren't super high. Mm. the level of qualification those companies tend to expect.
So often they're wanting ACC minimum, sometimes it's PCC and five years experience because they've got plenty of coaches to choose from for that work who may for whatever reason not want to self promote through content or do the business development side of it and just want to coach and have a supply of clients to coach every day. So it can work really well for some people.
but I think they find themselves doing quite a lot of hours of coaching like that to get to the level of income they might expect from it. As opposed to boutique coaching matchmaking services, which are rather, yeah, to things, they exist. It tends to be at the other end of the market for startup founders and CEOs and so forth who may want a specific industry background in their coach or an understanding of a sector to partner with them.
and very specific pieces of work in the startup environment. I've done some of that work. It's good fun, but rather harder to come by. Mm. yeah. And then there are also coaches who will bring other coaches in to support work that they're delivering. So there are options, but I think those options aren't available to everyone and they're not easily won, I would say. Mm. I've always said to coaches, don't burn your bridges.
We're talking about, but sometimes the bridge gets burnt and you've got no choice. As we heard you talk about, Andrew, at the beginning of this podcast. The other thing that has worked for me is that I think we have three kinds of people that we engage with when we meet people. I think we meet fans. Fans think that we're great, but they don't do anything apart from make us feel great. I'm thing to have fans, but it's not a business development thing. Then we have hubs.
So hubs are people who will open their address book, but they'll only open it when we're in conversation with them. So I might be talking to you now Shankar, and you might say to me, who do you know who? And I'm like, you need to talk to so-and-so. And if you get me to give you that connection now. or to email the introduction, that's great. But by next week I'll have forgotten.
And then there are angels, and angels are the people who will talk about us, unprompted, when anyone asks about anything. And I can trace back, so in 3D Coaching we've been going for 30 years, and I can trace back almost all the work we do to three angels. Mmm, that's lovely. some of the work now, of course, it's the great-great-grandchild of the angel. But I can tell you that piece of work started out because this person came on this course and then introduced me to this person.
Mm. And knowing who they are and knowing how to be with them is really important because the angel is the one that we take out for lunch. They're the one who needs to know what we're up to and all that kind of stuff. But you can end up buying lunch for all your fans and it doesn't make any difference. Can I add a fourth category to that? Advocates.
So ones you've worked with before who had such a great experience, they sing your praises and will happily, yeah, tell other people about it, given the chance. A bit like, a bit like hubs, but they've worked with you. And maybe a... bit of a tip for people who are listening in this seasonal time of year, we're probably coming up to Christmas by the time people hear this.
One thing I love to do at this time of year is to write to these advocates who've worked with me before, and if it's been a while, offer them a coaching session, gratis, how have you been? Let's do a build your year, next year coaching session on me, because I wanna know how you're and to help you, again, because I enjoyed it. I'm together and allow them to gift the same thing to someone who they think could really use some coaching.
So the advocate does the advocate thing and is able to give a gift of something they really think is of value to somebody who would really appreciate that and make use of it. And that's a great way to develop your business at very little inconvenience or cost. And it's a lovely thing to do as well. Love that. you Well, what an amazing conversation we've had today.
What's been, let's just hear from everyone, what's been your biggest insights we've been talking or a question that you're kind of left holding? Let's start with you, Shankar. He's thinking. Yeah, know, somehow this weirdness of the universe piece has stayed with me all week. Right. So Andrew rekindled it. So I think believing if I have a strong enough why the universe is preparing something which I can't see yet. I think that's what is coming up for me right now. Thank you Shankar.
What about you Andrew? I was thinking about the bridge thing coming into this and hadn't actually realised I'd crossed it. I thought I was still on it.
yeah, well I'm truly crossed it's in the rear view mirror now and it's helped me with something I've been wrestling with a bit myself recently in that on one side is an established coaching business, on the other side is helping other coaches which I'd always sort of shied away from in the beginning as... no, not another coach who coaches coaches kind of thing. But I've got things to say about that and help to give.
So finding a way to include that in my journey of being over the bridge now is a useful thing. I'm going to continue to do that. Fantastic, thank you. And what about you, Jamie? The word I wrote down is cartographer. When you said insight. So for me, it makes me to continue to reflect that. If you've had kind of a traditional career in corporate America, the map was given to you. It was very easy. You know, it's like, here's your path. This is what you have to do.
And I'm not going to suggest I didn't have some skills to get there. but the recipe was given, I just had to cook it, right? And now I just feel like, okay, this is kind of my path to build. And there's just a lot of different, there's a lot of different paths to do it. And, you know, not to sound, you know, cheesy, but one size doesn't fit all. you know, it's an art, not a science, and there's just different ways to do it. So it's a good reminder to me.
that it could be a little intimidating building your own map, but yet also liberating because you actually get to decide yourself. Thank you. I'm going to put all your contact details in the show notes, your LinkedIn profiles, so that people can contact you if they want to pick up the conversation. And yeah, I really encourage you listeners to check out these great coaches. So thank you, Jamie Fury Higgins, Shankar Venkatraman and Andrew Richards for coming to the Coaching Inn.
Thank you everyone for listening. Bye bye. Thank you. Bye. Thanks.