You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who are engaged in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn. I'm your host, Claire Pedrick. Thank you for listening. Remember to keep updated on new episodes. You just need to follow or subscribe to the podcast, either on your podcast platform or indeed on YouTube.
So today, well, I got an email recently from somebody who said, you really should interview Blair Palmer for your podcast. because she's written a new book called Punks in Suits and she talks about trust. And I went, I really must interview Blaire Palmer on my podcast because all of the above are really good things, but also we haven't spoken for about a hundred years. Hello, Blaire. Hello. That's right.
And when it came through to me and the PR agency said, Claire Pedrick, I was like, my gosh, Claire, haven't seen you in a hundred years. I'm not sure we've seen each other this... No, no it could be. I mean it may very well have been 1999, something like that. Yeah. Yeah, so that says that we've both been around in this world for too long or long enough or a long time. Yes, I like it.
Yeah, I was thinking about this the other day about the credibility that comes with being in your third decade of doing a particular kind of work and I I really like it. I think it certainly has given me a lot of confidence. And you know, if people don't like what I'm saying, that's absolutely fine. It's given me the confidence of that as well, but also the confidence in my beliefs. So I don't know if you feel the same, the same way. I do.
And I can remember when I was 30, a colleague who's 10 years older than me said, when you get to 40, people will start believing that you can do the thing that you're already doing. And then when you get to 50, they'll think you're wise. Yeah. Well, I've got beyond more than 10 years above that. But anyway, it's just, yeah, I think there's something about being not bothered. You know, the comedian, Miriam Margolis? Yes. my gosh, I love her.
She wears trainers everywhere and I feel that legitimizes everything. Yes. She's got a fantastic attitude. I want to be her when I grow up. Yeah. Yes. It'd be interesting, wouldn't it, to have a conversation with her about what's growing up. How old do you have to be to be grown up? I'm sure she would say she's not grown up. That's one of the things that I love about her is that she just has still this childish curiosity about the world and she's still learning.
That's one of the things that I admire. So tell us your coaching journey in which I hope I'll catch up with the last 24 years. Yes. Yes, exactly. Well... I was a BBC journalist when we first met probably I was still working there, making my transition out of that into coaching. In about 1999, that's when I found out about coaching and when I took on my first coach and then started training. so that is 24, nearly 25 years ago.
And in that time, you know, initially I wanted to be a life coach, I think that was at that time. the new profession, life coaching, and all the training was really about life coaching. But very quickly I started coaching leaders by accident. the thing is with the coaching training, as anyone listening to this will know, it doesn't matter what's going on in a sense for the coachee. The questions are just the questions. You don't have to know. Now I do know.
a lot about what goes on in business and I've developed my own theories about things. But I think I was a very good coach almost because I didn't know anything. You know, because I was just asking these wide open naive questions. And then over time, I did start to notice, okay, I'm hearing the same things back from these leaders that I'm coaching.
and I'm being invited into their organizations to work with their teams or then increasingly to work on culture and leadership development and those sorts of things. And I started to develop some theories of my own about what I was seeing across all of these different clients. It wasn't unique to anyone. And that's what took me to where I am now, which is These days, I still coach a couple of people one-to-one.
I mainly speak about coaching, sorry, speak about leadership as a coach because of those insights. And I write about leadership and I run some leadership development programs and master classes and that sort of thing. So it's taken me from sitting at my desk with my headset on. you know, in my little house, little flat in London, to speaking to audiences of, you know, 300, 400, 3000 people about leadership. Right. And the PR lady. Yes. Said talk to Blair about trust.
Yes. Yes. Well, so earlier on this year, I wrote a book, was my fourth book. It's called Punks in Suits. And It's about, I mean, the way I see it is that we're on the cusp of a revolution in how we utilize human talent. And yet organizations are still treating people as if we were in the industrial age.
So they're still carrying industrial age beliefs about people, which we can dig into, sure, in this conversation, that then determine how they try to engage them, how they try to reward them, how they try to motivate them, how they treat them if they've made a mistake.
All of these fundamental beliefs, which actually come from the Victorian age, which still exists today, and which are so counterproductive, that explain to me completely why people are struggling to make a difference, to have an impact, to feel like they're making a difference, to feel valued. to feel like they can do their best work. It's all rooted in this. And the trust piece is right at the center, which is fundamentally, or maybe I'll tell you what I think these two beliefs are.
So the two beliefs are, firstly, that people are second rate machines, and therefore we should treat them like machines. It's the only way we'll get productive, efficient, predictable results out of them. And secondly, that people are trying to get away with something. And therefore we need systems and processes and controls and layers of hierarchy and supervision and all of that to make sure they don't get away with anything. They don't take us for a ride.
And I believe that actually people are second rate machines. So we shouldn't have them doing machine stuff that a machine can do. And we shouldn't treat them like machines because they don't operate great. when we treat them like machines. And secondly, they're not trying to get away with anything. The vast majority just want to do a good job. Just want to make a difference. Just don't want to let their colleagues down or themselves or the customer or client.
And it's incredibly hard to do when someone's breathing down your neck in the belief that if they take their eye off you, you're going to steal the stationary and inflate your expenses. Wow. And trust underpins that, Yes. Yes, because they don't because at heart, I think a lot of leaders and like I said, I've worked with leaders for 25 years. I've never met one that I thought you're actually evil. The vast majority have been good, good people who care hugely about their organization.
and about their colleagues and about their people and about their customers and clients and about the planet they care. They genuinely do. But the extent to which they are willing to trust is quite limited. And what they're waiting for is for you to prove to me that you can be trusted. So if you do a good job, if you get the results, if you put in the work, if I see you, doing the things that to me tell me that you can be trusted, then okay, I will extend my trust to you.
But actually, trust doesn't have to mean that. So trust can mean something else. Trust doesn't have to be, I trust you to do the right thing or to get the right result. Trust can be, I trust that your intent is positive and I trust that you're telling me your truth. It might not be my truth. I might see things very differently, but you're telling me your truth.
And so therefore, in order to create a trusting environment, all I have to do is make it safe for you to tell me your truth and give you the freedom to bring that positive intent into your work, to give you space to do what you think is right and to talk to me about it, rather than because I don't believe. that your intent is positive. put lots of controls in, which mean you can't bring yourself to work.
That's so interesting because it reminds me, had Timothy Clark in the coaching in a few weeks ago and he was talking about rewarding vulnerability and as coaches, our first mover obligation to demonstrate vulnerability in ourselves to another so that they can trust us enough to do the work. And what you're describing there, I think, is the employer, line manager, person with more powers responsibility to offer something that makes it safe enough.
Yes, and there is huge vulnerability in that for a leader because what comes up inevitably is ego, right? I'm in this position as leader for a few reasons. One is I know better than you. I've been here longer, I'm more experienced or I've been fast-tracked. I'm simply better than you. Bit of ego is in there. Also, if I don't know better than you, What is my value? I don't know how to add value if it isn't that.
And so another reason that I need to keep tabs on you and check on you is to add value. Otherwise my job doesn't exist. And so the shift towards this more trusting environment is, listen, your truth and my truth might be different, but yours is as valid as mine. Therefore, I'm not necessarily right. I don't necessarily know what the right thing is to do.
Therefore I'll have to swallow my ego here and not get my value from telling you the right way to do it and then supervising you until you do it the way I do it. I'll have to get my value from something else and that something else, I mean, it's been called lots of things. We would call it a coaching style of leadership, right? Some people call it the servant leader. For me, the job of the leader is to create an environment where people can do their best work.
And normally what that means is looking around for tensions, barriers, obstacles, friction, that prevent people doing their best work and removing those tensions, getting them to the bottom or engaging people in getting excited about addressing those tensions. And so leaders are looking around for tensions and they're They're clearing a path and then they're just letting people do their best work. The word that comes up for me as you're talking is flow.
Yeah, it should be, you know, because if we're trying to create the thing that's the icing on the cake of all the change that's going on at the moment. yes, we had COVID, right? The long tail of that. We've got a climate crisis. We've got geopolitical uncertainty. We've got Gen Z coming into the workplace and the Alphas not far behind. We've got issues with supply. We've got it's more difficult than ever to find and retain great talent. Got all of this going on.
And then you sprinkle AI on the top of that, right? That's your knickerbucker glory with AI on top. And AI to me, let's not underestimate the impact. Anything that is better done without emotion can or will be done by AI. And a lot of what humans spend their time doing at work could be done better by AI. We think we're bringing magical human dust to it, but actually our humanity is getting in the way.
The sifting through mass, masses of data, analyzing big data, generating reports, even generating presentations, organizing people, organizing teams, organizing the flow of work. Most accountancy can be done better by AI. A lot of the legal stuff can be done better by AI. So what is the stuff that is uniquely human, that only humans can do?
It's the stuff that benefits from human emotion, our ability to connect with each other, to connect with ourselves, to... to care, to innovate, to wrangle with ethical issues. All of these things only humans can do. So we need to create an environment that is ultimately humane so humans can bring their humanity to work and do that kind of stuff. What I should say is, you know, for people that like doing kind of repetitive work or who just aren't turned on by the big thinking.
I think we should still have work for people. I think that's what being humane is. I think we should create a variety of work for all different sorts of people. But I think that denying people's humanity is an issue. Actually, everyone brings their humanity and we should create an environment where people can do that. that is a then flow, right?
you think about how you live in your house, how you organize, I need to get to the supermarket, I need to go to the gym, I need to clean the mess from breakfast. You just, you know, one way or the other, it all gets done, or it doesn't. But by and large, most people are managing their lives pretty effectively. They can do the same at work. Yeah. So what was the motivation to write Punks in Suits then? Well, so I was giving it as a keynote before COVID.
I got the quote that the term Punks in Suits is a quote from a film, a superhero film called Kick Ass 2. And the quote is, there's no room for punks in suits, just real heroes who can really kick ass. But I thought, no, we don't need heroes going around kicking ass. We actually do need some, some people who they may wear a suit on the outside, although fewer and fewer people seem to, but they've got a bit of punk on the inside.
whether it's punk or New Wave or a bit of, you know, 80s pop or whatever it is, we kind of have lost. I'm talking to people that are our sort of age. I'm talking to people who are currently running the organizations. And they've got, I don't know, 15 years, five years, something of that range left of work. And when they walk out the door for the last time and they hand in their laptop on the final day, they'll come face to face with who they could have been in their career.
Where they hid a little bit, where they just let stuff go. And maybe they'll be fine with that, but I personally wouldn't be fine with that. So I was thinking about that. I was giving a speech based on, you know, the sort of the myths of leadership. Then we had, and I was going to write a book about it. I started. Then we had COVID and I sort of gave up on it. So I thought, I wonder if this COVID thing will make any difference.
And when we came out the other end, I had some quite different things to say. of. what we'd learned during COVID and because of the world as it was, you know, two or three years later was not the same world as 2019. So much has changed. So I had to rewrite it, reconfigure it. And that's the kind of, then I felt ready to put it out there. That's fantastic.
So I'm really interested to talk about, so your You're in coaching and on the edge of coaching and around coaching and you're in leadership and trust. I'm just curious about what your take is on trust in coaching. Yeah. So I think as coaches, mean, firstly, we also need to assume, well, there's two, okay. So firstly, it starts from our own inner work. Is our ego getting in the way?
Are we thinking, especially after 20, 25 years of doing this, that we actually do have the right answers and that our coaching suffers as a result because we end up coaxing, not coaching, because we're trying to get them to get it, you know, because we got it 10 years ago and we just fast-tracked this whole process. So I think that we have to really model.
what we're espousing, that the answers are in the person that we're coaching, and that they do have positive intent, and that they are doing their best, and that their story is their story. That's how they see it. At the same time, there's something that I say that's in my keynote and in the book, which is, listen so hard, you might change your mind. Wow. So most of us are listening to find the flaws in the other person's arguments so we can tell them why. I see why you think that.
Okay, let me just correct you. This is this is why I'm right. And this, we want the other person to change their mind. But we're not planning to change ours. And I'm challenging an audience to, to listen so hard that they might change their mind. And the way that I describe that is you're standing on top of your mountain and you think you can see everything from here, because you've got a really good view, 360, and you can't understand why no one agrees with you.
So you invite them to come to your mountain because you say, if you come and stand here and see what I can see, you'll agree with me. But they're standing on a different mountain. And if we were standing on that mountain, it would look different to us. So the very first thing... that a leader has to do, and I think a coach or surf course, is to go and stand on their mountain and really see it.
And when you do that, you cannot think that your idea is the only idea because you're seeing things from a different angle. So the first thing is to listen so hard you might change your mind. The second thing is to speak up. And the way I put it to leaders is, if you're not going to speak up, why are you in the room? You could be doing something else. You could be checking your email, go to cinema, take your kids to the park. If you're not going to speak up, don't come.
And I think there is a role for coaches to speak up and speak out. Not because we're right, because there's no right, but because if we're not challenging, those leaders or whoever it is that we're coaching to stand in different positions and look at the world differently, then we're just colluding with them. just, whatever they're saying is happening is what's happening and we're not challenging.
So I do think increasingly, we used to be when you and I started coaching, was all about neutrality. And I realized quite early on, well, that's it. That's a myth. I mean, it's not possible to be neutral. I bring my biases to my work. So I might as well tell people, listen, this is where I come from. And it's from there that I'm going to challenge. And that challenge will open doors and windows. It's up to you which doors and windows you want to go through.
That's yours, but I'm going to open doors and windows that you didn't even realize were there. And I'm going to give you access to other options by being quite direct and challenging. And I think that I remember when we were, my company was taking on associates. We don't have associates now, but for a while I had quite a big team. And one of the hoops would make them jump through is they had to coach me. I would always pick something real.
And we'd get often to the end of the coaching session and I'd thrown them a boat, like I had an insight and I'd, and I left it to see if they would pick up on it and they step over it. And afterwards I would say, what happened there? I know, you know, that I said something and you didn't pick up on it. Well, you know, I didn't feel it's only our first coaching session and I didn't feel I should say something now.
you know, I was just trying to build rapport and I was like, senior lead, a CEO doesn't have three sessions to build rapport. If you don't do the job in the first 10 to 15 minutes of the conversation, they just don't have time to waste you building rapport. Get in there. Otherwise, why are you in the room? And it was only the ones that were like, Can we just go back? You said something and then we moved on and I really need to ask you about it.
And then to ask my favourite question, which is, really? I love that question. feel that the question really is like, is that necessarily true what you've just said? You're acting like it is, is it? So that's my favourite question. So I think... Listen so hard you might change your mind, stand on someone else's mountain, speak up, otherwise why are you in the room? And those look for coaches, you know, the industry has matured in the last 25 years.
So we as coaches, even people new into coaching have got to mature as well. And it's not okay to just be this empty vessel. You just added another one, but you didn't name it. What was it? another one, which was just get on with it. Yes, yes. you know, we do have, the thing is, there was a book and you probably know the name of the book. I don't know, can't remember it now. But it was basically something like, where were all the coaches when the failed?
I don't think that's the title, but it was something like It's something like that. And that really struck me. It's like all these guys are to have coaches. And none of the coaches must have had some inkling that not all was right. Well, we're in the same situation now. All the reasons that I just said, you know, so as coaches, we can't just collude. We can't just say, it's fine that you've got a mental health issue in your business and that your solution to that is lunchtime yoga.
You know, it's fine that you're demanding that people come in three days a week because you don't trust them. to work from home and you're not going to pay them more for the privilege and you're going to serve them up the really, really cheap coffee. You know, it's fine that you are just ignoring the impact that your organization is having on the climate and the communities that it's devastating by closing factories or closing offices and moving them offshore. It's fine. It isn't fine.
And who is their trusted confidant? Who is the only person sometimes who can say, are you fine with the legacy that you're leaving? Maybe you can't change the whole system. Fine. A lot of leaders are within the system, okay. But we've got this intimate one-to-one relationship with these people and it's not fine. And we have to at least be willing to ask them if they're fine with it. And that's being direct and not directive, isn't it? Yeah. a fabulous thing.
Yeah. Yeah. If they decide to carry on, it's, it's, it's cool. I mean, we're not responsible for what they're doing. They are. And, and like I say, they're not evil. They're just working within a system that makes it really difficult sometimes. But, you know, I ran a session last week for a bunch of leaders that are about inclusion and diversity. And we just made it really safe to say anything. And a lot of the things that the people in the group said are exactly what you would expect.
Well, but you know, where's it going to stop? are people, is it okay if someone says they identify as a cat? Am I supposed to be okay with that? And I was like, can we just, let's just reel back a sec. Because what's the real question here? Real question is if someone says, This is what I know about myself. Do you think you know better about them than they do? That was the sort of theme of the day.
And in the end, when they left, they were like, I'm just so excited to have a look at the way we're putting our job ads and the coded language that might be in there. And there's a few conversations I need to go. I need to go and get curious about some people in my team who have different experiences than me and just learn from them and kind of. why we might be making it hard to work here. And that was that it wasn't confrontation.
It was just opening doors and windows and everybody left with their, with new options, which is lovely. So what's the next book called? I don't know, but I tell you, so I've recently got very into bodybuilding and I know I'm not quite muscular these days. yeah, I'm going to compete or anything, but I've got really into it.
And one of the things that I've learned, I've never been into fitness particularly before, but The approach that I'm taking as a whole, you know, it's nutrition, it's sleep, it's recovery, it's boundaries and relationships, it's all sorts of things, as well as going to the gym and lifting heavy things. And it strikes me that the way we work is inherently unhealthy for our physical and mental wellbeing. We're not suited to it as human beings. We're not supposed to spend eight.
10, 15 hours sitting down, just to be cliched about it. And so it's possible that I will start to incorporate a bit of that into my work. And then that will be quite interesting to see, can we, by focusing, not mental health actually, because mental health is the output, the outcome, but on physical health, particularly strength. can we start to change people's perspectives? So there's just a little thing in my head.
It would be a bit of a departure, but right now, mean, the punks and suits thing is just so off the moment. I haven't finished talking about that yet. I'm interested about the bodybuilding thing. I was doing a seminar this morning, a webinar thing, and somebody said, we've got to learn that we're more than brains on sticks. Yeah. Yeah. felt like that for years that I was my body was just carrying my brain around.
one of the things I noticed, and you might notice this too, if you've been coaching someone in quite a dysfunctional organization, then they move to another organization that's more healthy. You notice that they lose weight, their skin changes, their eyes, you know, they go from being all red and sort of puffy to just being clear and bright. They look younger. I mean, it's not necessarily, we're not all trying to look younger, but you know what I mean? They just look more vibrant and energetic.
Isn't it awful that your job could do that to you? That your company could make you sick? But of course, A lot of people have that experience that the reason, if you ask people mainly why they can't be more healthy, it'll be their job. The hours, how hard it is to eat healthily when they're there. They don't have enough time to get to the gym. They can't get enough sleep because their phone's going all the time and they're expected to respond. Job makes it hard to be healthy. That is terrible.
So we need to do something about that. They eat too late. Yeah. Working lunches. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, we aren't machines, right? So if we want the humanity of people, we're not talking about coming to work at seven o'clock in the morning and being on call until nine o'clock, because it's not about hours. You know, it's about contribution.
And you can make your contribution best if you've been for a walk and you've had a good night's sleep and you had breakfast with your family and you're going home to a meal that's made of real food. And maybe you got to go to the gym and lift some heavy stuff, feel like a bit of a beast. And that will make you a better contributor in a few hours. Yeah, ladies who lift. That's one of my hashtags that I use on my Instagram. Ladies who lift.
Ladies who lift midlife women, menopausal women and silver sisters. Excellent. Love it. Love it. What an absolute delight to talk to you, Blair, after all these hundreds of years. I've really enjoyed it. I keep forgetting that we're recording it. So how do people find out about punks in suits? Shameless plug for the book. And how do they contact you if they want to talk to you more?
Yeah, so the book is on all the online book retailers, but I mean, Amazon, you can get the audiobook as well, which is read by me. So you have me in your ears. And for this sort of book, I actually like audiobooks, like that's how I consume nonfiction. So audible. And then to find out more about me, either go to my website, which is that people thing. or find me on LinkedIn because I'm all over LinkedIn. It's my favorite social media platform. So yeah, just connect with me there.
Great. Well, thank you, Blair Palmer. My pleasure. A delightful and laughing, light, beautiful thing. Yeah. And hopefully it'll be less than 20 years before our next conversation. I hope so. Yeah. Who knows what shape podcasts will take in the next 20 years? Can't even imagine. Indeed. Who knows? You'll have your avatar doing it maybe. Yeah. I wonder what's the difference. Anyway, that's a different thing. What's the difference between a human host and an AI host? Now that's interesting.
You can pop that in the comments, listeners. Lovely listeners. Humans that you are. Thank you for listening. We'll be back next week with another episode. See you then. Bye bye.