You're at the Coaching Inn 3d Coaching Virtual Pub where we enjoy conversations with people who are engaged in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's edition of the Coaching In. I'm your host, Claire Pedrick. And today I'm in conversation with Derek Hill who sent me a message and said, uh, do you wanna talk about endings? Well, given the endings are the thing that probably comes up more in supervision than anything else.
And given that our coach mentors say that endings are often the thing that people really need to focus on. Of course, I said, yes, Derek, wow, welcome to the coaching in. Thank you. It's great, great to be here. Great to have the opportunity to talk a little bit about endings. So before we talk about endings, let's talk, talk about beginnings. Tell us a little bit about your coaching journey.
OK. So my, my coaching journey, um I, I had lived a life in kind of corporate leading organizations and, uh I had just a fascination or I, I recognized that the success of my organization was based on the, the people within it and how they kind of showed up. And how they were supported to have great days at work. Um So it really sparked a um curiosity in the world of coaching and how I used that to support people better.
And that one thing led to another, I got a bit of imposter syndrome thought I had to do a bit more education in coaching, um learnt more about it and like many people found a real love in it and thought this is, uh this is something that I really want to focus. Um my time and, and effort on. Um So I, so I invested um some time and money in Henley Business School, went through their programs there, did the, did the MS C um really enjoyed that experience. It was fantastic.
Um And then, uh I sat at my own coaching practice, been running that for a few years, high five coaching. And um and now I'm actually uh a coach with HS BC. So enjoying that experience as well. Well, that's probably a different podcast here. I don't want to go down that route because of course, lots of coaches say, how do I get an employed job? That's got coaching the name? But that's not for now. Ok. Well, it could be. But let's see. So what piqued your interest in endings?
Yeah. So maybe there's something about endings in that story actually because I think um I can remember sitting in a workshop once um with John Whittington of kind of constellations fame. And he was talking about systems and he was talking about the physical systems. And also what, what goes on in systems that we don't see and particularly what grasped my attention was this concept of joining and belonging and leaving. Yeah, and the leaving, I kind of equated to ending.
And I think when I talk about my transition, I was noticing, oh, you know, there's a few endings and beginnings going on in my world. And, um, I wondered, you know, how they, how they transferred to the coaching space, you know, and how they transferred to my relationships with coaches or the way I coached or, or how that kind of thing. And I thought, oh, you know, endings particularly, I think are very kind of powerful and I'm sure something goes on there unconsciously with endings.
And I was just kind of curious to kind of think about that a little bit more and look at it closely. I was also in that classroom, not at the same time as you, uh, and as you speak, there's something about an, an appropriate disconnecting isn't there? So that, so that we become very connected and then, and then when we get to the ending, we need to, to take what's useful with us and leave the rest behind. And that's, I think, isn't it where it often falls over? Oh, I love that.
I love that thought. I think there's a, I think like whilst I say there's a power in ending, there's a power in all elements and there's a real power in belonging. And, um, one of the, one of the things I thought about and kind of challenged myself was as I moved from, you know, a leader or a manager of people to a coach was, was I replacing that relationship I had with my team members, with the relationship I now had with my coaches.
Yeah. So, so then it would, when it came to the end of the relationship that would feel very different cos we don't, we don't necessarily do that typically at work, you know, we don't work with our colleague for a bit and then, you know, and then we part ways that that happens in some ways but not, not on as frequent a basis as perhaps in coaching. Um So I wondered, you know, what, what am I doing anything at the end? Is there any kind of attachment there? Am I, am I doing anything?
Are they doing anything? You know, what, what's, what's happening? So, in your wondering, what did you find out? So, so in my wondering and um I did my, I did my final research project on my MS C about endings and one of the things there was, was looking at the research and looking what's around and I recognize there's not that much on endings. Um So there is, there is some research Elaine Cox had written a great paper back, I think.
Um, 2010, 2012. Um and Katherine Sadler had written some nice stuff in her book, um, psychodynamic Coaching. Um But, but apart from that, there was quite, quite little and most of our endings were in a kind of therapeutic space. And even when I looked at the, uh you know, the, the industry bodies like IC F endings were mentioned very lightly, like honoring the end, you know, in the competition in one line. Yeah, in one line.
So, you know, and, and it seems such a big thing and, and you know what? And that sounds good. Honoring the end. Yeah, that sounds, that sounds a good worthy thing. But then it's like, what does that actually mean? And, and I didn't know what it meant and I thought maybe, maybe because endings are difficult, we kind of avoid them on a systemic level as well. And I, I wondered about that. I wondered about that balance of beginnings and endings.
I noticed that some of our, our tools and stuff that we use even like, even like the wonderful Stokers, um you know, is, is, is at the front of our conversations and we, we use that coy start with the end of mind. I've got one for the end, don't you worry, I'm sure you have. But what you were describing there sounds like the end of the relationship. But there's also, isn't there the end of the conversation.
And I wonder whether we avoid the end of the conversation, maybe as much as we avoid the end of the relationship. And I just wonder if they're connected. Yeah. No, I, I think, yeah, I think, I think that might be present. I think my, my research was very much focused on the coaches experience of ending the craft client relationship.
So, in what I had read in the research, there was some work on the coaches' experience in ending the client relationship and what might show up for the coach e like one interesting thing I read in the research was that that final session is the hardest one to schedule and is the most likely to be canceled and rearranged and sometimes never happens. Yeah, because of how we, how we kind of cope with end things differently.
So what I was interested in was exploring from the coaches perspective, how they end well in order to end that relationship well, for the benefit of them and the coach e but also for their future coaching practice. So we go on and feel like we have efficacy as a, as a coach. Yeah. Yeah. And it's complex, isn't it? Because sometimes if you're in a, a commissioned piece of work over a number of sessions, sometimes the good work finishes before the end.
So that also doesn't it impact whether you go for that end session? But if you don't go for that end session, you didn't end when the work ended because you didn't know the work had ended when the work ended until after. Yeah, absolutely. And I, I spoke with a simple sentence. No, no, I'll have to sit with that and, and listen to it back.
Um, I, I sat with lots of coaches through this research and talked about their experience of endings and there was a real mix of descriptive words and emotions and A l you know, on the positive side, there was a lot of pride and celebration at the end of the process, you know, the, the feeling that a job well done, that kind of positive feedback, making a difference, you know, that, that warm feeling in their heart, that this is purposeful work and, and worthy work.
Um But then on the counter side, it was interesting, there was some real stark words, like the word grief came up a lot in the interviews to say the sense of loss, the sense of, you know, not knowing. And that was, that was interesting around like, how do I contract for after the end was a, was a kind of unanswered point, you know, a lot of coaches stalking their coaches on linkedin to find out how things have gone, you know.
Um So, yeah, that was, it was an interesting point that kind of, um that mix of emotions we have as a coach and one thing, you know, you've sparked there is, I talked to people who, who didn't end their kind of program of sessions and how that felt, you know, when they were really connected and enjoying the partnership and the work and feeling like they were at the kind of learning edge as a coach in this partnership.
And then suddenly at the end of one session, the coach he would say, I think I've got enough now and it was, and I told him he was like, coach, he was like, gosh, you know, that was, that was hard to hear. You know, the, the work was done as you're talking, I'm, I've gone back to the beginning, of course, because there's a natural shift, there isn't there. But, you know, if we're there to build trust and rapport and intimacy. Yeah. And of course, that's going to be grief.
Yeah. Except sorry, I'm probably going off on either on stuff you've already thought about or on a completely parallel track. Is it ok if I Yeah. So the question that comes up for me is what kind of intimacy does intimacy need to be like? Because if you have intimacy in a, in a, in a, in a personal relationship that then has grief if and when the relationship is over, that's a, that kind of comes with the territory or not.
But the intimacy that we have in coaching, I wonder whether sometimes there's over intimacy. Gosh, I think that's a really interesting point. I think I, in, in some of the reading I did, I came across this phrase of good enough endings and, and the point there was to recognize that endings, endings will be clunky. Endings are tough. Yeah, endings aren't perfect.
So therefore we need to, we need to be ok um, with that imperfection of endings and, and, and, and do what's kind of good enough in, in that kind of moment. Yeah. Yeah. And it's never going to be perfect. Yeah. And I think also you inspired me to think about one thing that came up was about what else is going on in our life both currently and, and in our lived experience that informs or influences how we end as a coach.
Um, there, there were, there was one, coach I interviewed who'd, um, had some separation in their life in terms of parental relationships and that meant they had a very different view of kind of endings and attachment and they actually didn't find endings any problem at all.
Yeah, endings were just something that happened in life, but it felt like there was, you know, it wasn't the scope of this study, but it felt like there was something very deep in there in the kind of childhood story that kind of maybe kind of influenced how that showed up. And I wonder how when we train as coaches, how much we think about, you know, what we, what we bring, you know, with us and how that's gonna influence us as a coach.
Yeah, you and I need to have another conversation because this, this podcast is about endings and I'm just thinking, oh, well, they could go right over there. Um, so coming back to the point of endings, what were your biggest learnings? So, number one biggest learning was a little bit.
I mentioned that Stephen Covey kind of, uh quote the start, you know, we, we begin with the end in mind and, and that's used a lot and we set ourselves up and at the end, when we think of some of the questions we ask in coaching, you know, what, what will be different at the end of our time, you know, what will change? Well, how will, you know, you know, what will the, you know, we're very focused on that.
But if we think about the balance, you know, we have kind of chemistry sessions and discovery sessions kind of scheduled. But, but I don't mean many coaches that have a ending session or a closing session scheduled.
Yeah. And when I spoke to, uh, coaches, I often found that they just try to cram the ending in at the last 1015 minutes of the final session, you know, just to recognize that this is the last session and you know, what might, what, what might we need to say to each other to, to honor the ending? Um And maybe that was in service of the coach E cos, you know, there was a contractual thing there, it was their time, you know, what, what's best for us to talk about.
And I wonder if in terms of learning on both sides, there's more of a, more of a supported ending that, that can, uh, that can be a helpful process. And if I can riff off that, when does that need to happen? And when does that need to be talked about? Because you, you've said two or three times about coy saying, begin with the end of mind. You go, well, we'll have a chemistry session and then we'll do the work.
But what coach says and then we'll have a a and then after the work is finished, we'll have an ending conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe there's a contract thing for that.
Um And then a way to, you know, capture the learn and, and like a, like a, a structured reflection about the, about the process because there's another great quote that I like by uh Zigman in his authentic happiness book, which is like he says in your, in your own life, you should take particular care with endings for they cut they for their color will forever tinge your memory of the entire relationship. And so I think, oh, that, that last session is really important session.
So when is it, who's it for? And who pays for it? Yeah. Who's it for is a very interesting point. And I think of, for me, what I notice when I talk to coaches is that often the end session becomes a, how was I? And there's a confusion, isn't there between feedback and reflection, feedback to the coach and reflection for the thinker? And what are we both learning about relationships? Yeah. What are we, what are we both learning?
I think that's a really interesting point, capturing the opportunities that capturing the, the things that have surprised us about ourselves and about the conversations that we've had. Yeah, I got my clarity about the pres conversation that's in simplifying coaching from listening to a recording. You know, when you kind of know something and then something happens and you really know it, it was that day.
Uh and I was listening to a recording and it was the final session and that rarely happens when people, when coaches bring recordings for a technical check in with me, they rarely bring the final session, but this person brought the final session and of course, the coach was recording it so that I could listen to it. So they really wanted to demonstrate the beginning so that in the recording, I would hear that they were doing a good shape to the conversation.
So the, the coach is doing something like, you know, what would you like to think about today and the thinker going, do you know, this has been the most useful working relationship I've ever had and then the coach is going. So what would you like to be different by the end of the session? And as I was listening to this recording with this coach who I can't remember who it was. I was almost screaming at them going.
They're trying to give you really good feedback that you haven't asked for and you're not listening because you're trying to, you're trying to shape the session for me. This is a real session. But, but I, you know, it'd be really interesting, wouldn't it to dig into listening to recordings of final sessions and not noticing what else is happening? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting to capture those things. Those, those things we put down those things we think about after that sessions ended.
So you got these mixed words and you got some really mixed experiences. What else did you notice in your research? So I know, what else did I notice? I noticed there was, there was this thing and Elaine Cox talked about in her work about the end and the ending. And then also I think my, my research showed that that kind of thing of, you know, what happens after the ending? Cos we talk about an ending but is it really an ending?
You know, and, and sometimes, you know, in the, um I don't know, uh conditioned learning of kind of coaching competencies, we kind of think that, oh, you know, we don't want, we don't want them to be dependent on us. So therefore we need to kind of pull back from the relationship. But, but maybe that dependency is, you know, may maybe that dependency is not there for them and they just enjoy that relationship and, and you know, that's you, you know, you're kind of part of that.
And so, so I wonder, you know, that that's a learning for me is, is, you know, that this is like, how do, how do we end in terms of going forward? What's the contract? Yeah. Do we, you know, is this it, do we never talk again or do we check in? You know, is that helpful? You know, how, how will it work and who's checking in? Is it the coach who's checking in or is it the human who's now in a slightly different relationship with the person? Mm. That's a, that's an interesting question.
I think in my research, it was definitely the coach was checking in because maybe the need need being fulfilled. Was that not knowing? And um, and perhaps see him? But then when I think about your phrase earlier of the, how am I doing? Cos that's like a future, how am I doing or how, you know, how sticky has that work? Work kind of been? If you take the question, will we ever go out, would we ever go out for lunch? That's a post ending thing.
And I've been in supervision groups with coaches quite a lot of coaches who go the end is the end is the end. Yeah. And then others where they become friends with the person that they were formally coaching. So, I think there's a question and then for me, there's a question about, is it an end or is it a transition? And if it's a transition, what are we transitioning to? Mm. Yeah. And is that clear enough? And who pays for lunch and who pays for the lunch? Who pays for lunch? I love that.
Well, I think seriously though, I think that gives some clarity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. No, that, that's interesting. It's, it's having a, having a common understanding of that, that position as well. Not, not thinking from within. I work, I work with one coach who uh or co yeah, coach who I was interviewing, who's very experienced coach, been coaching for many, many years.
And uh she shared with me that she has, she struggles with endings and one of her coping mechanisms is she never holds the final session. So she always tells the coach he there's one more session for them to hold when they, when they need it. Like, like the like this, this kind of offering that they can always come, they can always come back for this final session. Should they ever need it? And she says that gives her some comfort in the final session.
But she, she, she recognized that is that helpful or not helpful. She wasn't sure. Well, that's interesting. Cos I sometimes do that and in my head I call that a lifeline cos it's when the work's finished, but they don't think it's finished to say to them. Well, there's one more session that's paid for that you can take at any point in the future.
I'm really pretty confident they're not going to take it, but also they've got the confidence of having it there if they need it, which they probably don't. So there's so there's something there on both sides isn't there. Absolutely. And maybe you sparked me. Go on. Sorry. No, you keep going because this is so interesting.
Well, you just, you just sparked me there to, for a, to remember a piece that I reflected on in my work was about, you know, you taught there about this kind of, you know, agreeing what the end looks like and, you know, who pays for lunch. So there's a common under understanding, but also I guess we have to recognize it in coaching that it's kind of like our end as a coach, the program's ending and it's ending for us.
But if you actually look at the position of the coach, e it's probably their beginning, you know, they were ending at the start of the relationship, you know, they'd, when they came to coaching, they may have said I want change enough's enough. You know, I've, I've ended my, um, my relationship with the status quo. Yeah. And I'm gonna do this work with this new partner. Yeah. So they're kind of ending. We're beginning and then at the end, maybe there's this, maybe what makes it clunky?
Is this misalignment it's ending for us. So we think it's ending for them. But actually what they're saying is no, you know, I've got everything I need to begin. Now, I've gone off on another tangent. Am I allowed to share it? Absolutely. So, I'm thinking about intimacy and belonging and I'm thinking that people are different, aren't they? So I have, I have quite a number of really close friends. Interestingly, they don't, most of them know each other.
They're in different places and, and I've always got room for another. You know, I've always, if, if I meet someone else who I really connect with, there's always room for someone else other, there are other people at, at the other extreme. There are people who've had one, you know, they have one really good friend and that's their really good friend and that's their only really good friend and that's also marvelous.
But there's something isn't there about the, about the person who's come for coaching and the coach in terms of our relationship and what we believe about how squishy the edges are of our tribe of people, of human people. So, so if somebody who, who has lots of connected relationships, somebody that you've coached might enter into that uh quite comfortably over time.
But somebody who only has one close relationship for them to, for them to, to embrace somebody who they've coached into that very small space is going to look, feel and be experienced in a very different way. No, I think that's, that's a, that's a great observation. I think there's a very kind of, you know, there's a way of thinking very deeply about that in terms of, you know, emotions and relationships and you know, how we connect as human beings.
And then there's also a very top level way of looking at it and saying like when we're a coach and it's a commercial transaction. If we've got lots of coaches, it's easier to say goodbye to one than if we are just working with one coach E and, and that's kind of, that's kind of our revenue but, but there's also an inequality in the relationship isn't there because we know them much more deeply than they know us. Yeah. Yeah, thats interesting.
Yeah. So yeah, you're making me maybe there's, there's, there's definitely more work to be done in the world of endings. There is, there is. So we've, so that's two things you said that you learned in your research. So for those of you who are linear apologies, we are coming back to the line, what else did you learn? Um So I learn, I learn kind of lots of things, lots of little tips and things that coaches, coaches coaches do particularly in one bit.
I liked one coach who was very organized where this idea of, of numbering the sessions of always working towards the end of being clear. Like the, the the coaches who seem to have a better relationship with endings were the coaches who worked towards the end.
The end was part of the coaching, whereas the coaches who seem to struggle with endings is when they kind of, they wandered on a, on an exploration and venture with their coach E and then the, and then the ending was like more of a kind of loss cos it was this, this thing together. So I, so I noticed this directional thing and this come comes back to, you know, really, really working towards the end if that's what you wanna do as a coach is not to say that that's the right way.
It's just, um, you know, recognize if you, if you take the other route, just endings will be a bit tougher. And that's ok. It just just, uh, it, it's just something you need to be aware of. And then through my work, I, I kind of, uh, I, I did reflections after every kind of interview and I was kind of keen on, you know, I guess being an engineer from my background, keen on the models in coaching as supportive and how they can be helpful.
And one of the things in the gaps in, you know, in what's out there was, you know, Stokers is a nice model. And at Henley, we were taught dow at the end of the sessions and, and there's a nice, there's a, there's a nice weight or balance between those and, and also, um, promises was uh a structure that Karen Foy and Susan Hayes Jones had come up with or the start of relationships. But there was nothing at the end. Yeah, there was nothing that balanced promises.
So I kind of, I kind of worked on on that and came up with a new monic through the work which was called Goodbyes. And as soon as I found goodbyes, you know, that all my research kind of fitted into Goodbye, which shows my naivety as a researcher, but it felt like they felt like the right thing to or it felt like a nice, a nice thing to do was have a supportive kind of structure that just helps us think about that both as a coachy and potentially a coach. So, is it written up your research?
So, um, so I haven't, I haven't published it but I have, I have written it up as a, a Henley insight guide so anyone can find it on the kind of Henley insight guides. And, um, and, yeah, I, I had a wonderful supervisor called Julia Carden who has, uh, has given me some nice nudges to write it up. And, uh, yeah, I've, uh, I've, uh, I've, I've got to get round to, to doing that part because it matters. And it's interesting, isn't it?
Because almost everything we've talked about in this conversation has been about the end of the relationship, but there's still the end of the session and something that you just said about three or four minutes ago, you said some people kind of meander and some people coach with the end in mind. I think that's also true in a, in, in a, in each session.
And I think that the biggest issue about endings for coaches is that the better you are at creating really wonderful and beautiful space, the less the thinker has any idea where you are in the conversation. And they'll just keep, if they're, if they're on the journey to deeper, they'll just keep going deeper and then you won't stop them because you think that's disrespectful. You've now got five minutes before the end of the session and you don't know what to do and then you just cut it off.
Yeah, I love that. I love that. You know, where that, that question, where are we coming up all the way through? I don't know why I thought of it, but you reminded me of the, you know, when you're having a really good dream and you just wake up, oh, and you just wanna go back to sleep? I know. And you think, oh, that just ended. But you can never go back to it and there's a moment that it feels a bit kind of sad, you know, because you, you, you can't, you can't, you can never have that again.
And I wonder if there's, I wonder if I'm, I'm thinking that with what you've said about coaching that when we wander, we can get to really nice places. It can feel, it can feel great in the relationship, but then when it ends it just, it just ends. Yeah. But it's not structured. Do you have Children?
Yes. So, I don't know how old your Children are but when Children are small and you go somewhere, you say to them you can play with your lego for five more minutes and then we're going to leave and they know, then they still have a doo da but they know that actually the end is coming and that they can't play there with whatever it is they're doing forever.
But I think we need to do that in, in every conversation because otherwise I think that our deep ability to create connection is actually really disrespectful. Mm, because we're waking them up from the dream cos we have control of when that ends. Well, the clock has control of when that ends, but they're probably not looking. Yeah. Yeah. You're making me think of the five more minutes kind of message from the child. Yeah, exactly. And that's what happens.
But, but all you do, if you say five more minutes, if you give them five more extra minutes, then they, then they will always expand the thing to the time available. Whereas if you say in coaching, if you say so, we've got about 15 minutes left. What do we need to do? That begins to just sow the seed that we're beginning to end the conversation. And actually that's where transformation happens.
Yeah. And I wonder if this is just a thought experiment about the, about coaches who meander versus coaches who are very clear about. We've got four sessions left. I wonder whether in the same way that in an individual session the transformation often happens after we've begun to name the end. I wonder whether that's true in the relationship. Yeah, because I think when you saw their name in the end creates a constraint and perhaps there's some creativity comes from working within constraints.
Uh, it kind of makes us, uh, yeah, it makes our mind work a different way. Mhm. So much to learn Derek. Well, I, I just hope that this kind of conversation has maybe piqued people's interest to think more about endings because, you know, I do believe that they are as important, if not more important than the beginning. Yeah. So it might, if you're a coach, you know, I'd, I'd love you to notice, you know, how much time do I do? I give to these elements of the relationship?
Yeah. And just, just check in with that and think, oh, you know, I wonder, I wonder what that might mean. And if you're interested in the ending listeners, if you're interested in the ending of conversation, I'll put a link to a master class um in the show notes and you can listen and if you put in the code, Derek, we'll give you a discount, then you'll remember Derek's name. Ok. Thank you for that. So, if people want to keep talking about it, Derek, how do they contact you?
Yeah. So I guess the easiest thing is just, um, hook up me on, on linkedin. Um, and you can find me, find me through there. Um, I'm actually, uh, it hasn't been planned yet but I think we're doing it in April. I, I'm an associate at the faculty at Henley Business School and we're gonna do a talk about endings in April.
So if anybody's connected with the, the kind of Henley live community there, there'll be some information on there if anybody's interested in getting into a bit deeper discussions about this kind of topic. And are you up for more session? More talks?
Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's, uh, I think the, yeah, when we, when we feel competent, competent may be the wrong word, but when we feel comfortable in our ability to end, I think it can, um, can be a good thing for our relationships and our coaching. So we have listeners in over over 100 countries. So watch out for the invitations it. All right, I look forward to that and thanks for the conversation today and thanks for your kind of uh thinking and, and contribution.
So now we're both in high anxiety because we've got to demonstrate that we ended this. Well, yeah. So what do we need to do to end this world, Eric? Well, I think at one point of goodbye. So I won't go through the whole model but the why is about yearning? So I'm kind of interested in the question maybe for you in this ending. What, what are you perhaps yearning for in terms of the topic? What, what's it sparking for you? That's still to be thought about for you.
Shall I send you some money for that? Um I, I think the thing that I want to keep thinking about is, is a, it is been connected from a few things you've said, which is about our personal experience and attitude. But I'm curious and interested to notice, I think that probably shows up a whole lot more than we think it does.
Yeah. So when I go later today to listen to a recording or a coach who wants to kind of get a sense of where they are, I should be really noticing that and then I will also notice it in my own stuff. Um, because who you are is how you coach. Yeah. And who you are in relationship to endings is also how you cope isn't it? Yeah. Well, that's a nice thought to hold on to. And you're taking away, I'm taken away. I'm taking away that.
I was thinking at the start of this year about what I wanna advocate. You know, I think that's a word we don't use a lot. And, um, you know, I think this is an important part and I, I would like to be a bit more purposeful about advocating endings. So I think I would like to um keep this conversation going and I learn lots in every conversation I have about it. So there's a, there's a benefit for me, but I think there's a benefit for all of us.
I would, I would love one day for the competencies that we help coaches form their habits with. Have a little bit more of a leaning towards endings rather than one line. Actually, the, the IC F I, when I did wrote, simplifying coaching, the IC F were the only professional body he talked about at all and it's very clearly in relation to the relationship, but actually it is related to it's, you know, it's every single time. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
So let's make this a little ending because I'd love to have you back to talk more. Ok, thank you. Thank you for today Claire and thank you and thank you everyone for listening. Uh There's lots of information, the show notes, uh and uh yeah, thank you, Derek. Thank you, everyone. See you next time. Bye bye. Thanks. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media.
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