You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn. I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and a shout out today to Julie, who emailed to tell us how much she enjoyed listening to The Coaching Inn on YouTube so she could see us at the same time. And actually, she hadn't really got why there was a bit of a dissonance for her in listening with audio.
So if you are a video looking person, remember you can... get every episode as it drops on YouTube where you can subscribe or follow just like what you can on your podcast platform and there's loads of other good things on the YouTube channel the 3D coaching YouTube channel I'll put a link in the show notes. So today our guest is Fran Kershaw. Hello. Fran's here for lots of good reasons. That's good to know Claire.
One of which is she's done a brilliant TED Talk called How to be Great at Difficult Conversations. Let's talk about you before we talk about your TED Talk, Fran. You're a coach. I am these days, yes. So tell us about what got you to these days. well, so I've been a coach, Claire, for about nearly six years now, actually. Most of my career was spent, well, I live in Nottingham, so you can't swing a cat in Nottingham without hitting someone that works for Boots.
So I spent a lot of my career in Boots. And over the years, I absolutely love people, Claire. I did various roles, and it doesn't matter which ones really, but I just loved the interactions with people and I always kind of wanted to be a coach but there was there was never the right time. Didn't seem like you know doing my qualification getting the money for that.
It's probably just excuses but in 2018 I just a few years before and I just didn't feel very well and in the middle of 2018 I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and I think That was the point, Claire, that I thought, well, I first thought, yeah, I think it'll be fine, I'll just carry on. But actually, I got to the point where I thought, I need to take some control and do something that I love. So, that's what I did. I got to kind of the end of 2018.
I trained as a coach, left my job, took a bit more, suddenly realized that I needed to be in control of my time and my health a bit more. And I probably had a few months off, Claire, and then I set up my own coaching practice, scarily. 2019 that was, so my practice probably started properly in 2020 as we hit the pandemic. But that was my journey to being, to getting to be a coach. And ever since then, yeah, one thing's led to another and I've got my own coaching practice helping.
Helping people, Claire, as I said to you right from very start to have just have better days at work. What a great reason to be in the coaching profession to help people have better days at work. Do you know what? And I think my experiences, thank you, my experiences are definitely not unique, Claire, but one of the reasons that I wanted to be a coach and to help other people have a better day at work is because I genuinely don't want people to have the bad days that I did.
It sounds contrived or a little bit strange, but five years in, I think as a coach, I can definitely say now, whether you're a CEO or you're just starting out in your career as, I don't know, a brand assistant or whatever it is, everybody goes through the same stuff. And when I was in role with my leaders and everybody else, I just, you see them as these beings over there somewhere that can't possibly be human in some ways.
But what I've learned over the past five years as a co-fler is everybody is just that, human. And they all need to help having a better day and we're all very similar. And that's why I do what I do. Yeah. Yeah. It's just sometimes you have to hide it more. You feel you have to hide it more. Yes. could not agree more, Claire. You know, if I think about when I was at work, you hide it wanting to be, I know, a great leader or thinking that you need to present in a certain way or whatever.
But you know, the thing I've realized as well through being a coach, and I'm sure all of us coaches find it, you know, everybody worries about the same things, but everybody puts that mask on when they go to work. for whatever reason it is, speaking to someone the other day, really quite senior, I just get up every morning worrying that I'm an imposter, that I'm a complete fraud, that I don't even know why my business would have picked me to do what I do.
I just find myself over the past five years thinking, I wish I'd realized that when I was at work. Well, I am at work, but when I was in that role. must speak up on phone and learn how that shapes their interactions with people. every day, it really can cloud how many good days they have at work or not, I think is what I would say. It's a definite life. I think, you know, I said to you, I don't want anybody else to have the bad days that I had.
I'm sure, you know, there was never really any bad intent, but it's, yeah, realising and part of coaching is helping people to see the way that they are being with other people, that sometimes all of those, don't know, imposter syndrome and everything else, like you say, just shapes.
those interactions and unless you have somebody sitting in front of you that in a very empathetic, objective, non-judgmental way that can go, I'm experiencing this from you, could it be that everybody else experiences that and how that shapes your day? Sounds simple to us as coaches, I think sometimes, you know, but the power of it is massive. Sounds simple to us as coaches, but You've just described how to brilliantly use the information that's in the room in a safe and challenging way.
Yeah. And I'm not sure that every coach has got to the point of knowing that that's a really great thing to do. I think it's something, you know, I think probably Claire, you know, I think it comes with, you know, when you do your coaching training, you come out with all the theories, the models and everything else and in your head you sit in there thinking, you know, I could use this model. And we've talked about models, Claire, haven't we? And the use or not. Or use or not of them.
And I think, I think the power of having your own confidence as a coach to sit and really listen to somebody and build, it doesn't come automatically actually, Claire, does it? You know, when you do your chemistry sessions with people.
And, you know, I always say to people, chemistry sessions are about you working with me, but about me also working with you brilliantly and building that platform of trust and safety so that you can say to somebody, you know, I think if you're saying that in that way to that person, you know, like say you experienced it in the room or you say,
If I played that back to you now, what is coming up for you in this moment, physically and emotionally, that might inform when you go back to work, how are you going to have those interactions that aren't clouded by fear of looking like you're an idiot or that you don't know what you're talking about? It comes out in different ways for everybody, Claire, but yeah, I think it comes with a bit of experience with coaching and a bit of... Absolutely. Finding your own style of coaching, think.
I think I'm being comfortable with that, but it takes a bit of practice and bit of taking a deep breath sometimes and trying some stuff. But that's definitely what I found. And it's funny, isn't it? Because it takes courage, but it makes the whole conversation more useful because it turns from being theoretical into actually, this is what I experience. this is I notice or as you hear yourself say that what do you experience?
Yes and I think I said to you, know Claire, because you're my wonderful supervisor and you said something in that last session I've been very conscious of in my coaching sessions Claire but that's power of supervision but I think on one of your podcasts I think listening to I think some wonderful person said what do you hear if you're not listening with your ears? Was that the phrase? It may well have been.
Something, it was, but it was something like that, that if you, as a coach, doesn't matter what, and the thing I've learned as well, doesn't matter, like I say, who you're sitting in front of, what level in an organization they are or whatever, it is just being able to say. I'm not even listening to the words that you're saying, I'm just experiencing you in this moment and how you're interacting with me and my feeling.
And I did say, I've said it to a few people, when you said that, it makes me think and feel this. Now, probably I go back to, you know, previous days at work when somebody's probably said it to me and I know how I felt. But yeah, the power of for any coach, being able to do that from kids. Yeah, it's a wonderful thing for people. What you're saying reminds me of two examples. The first one was when I was just doing our normal transforming conversations training in an organization.
It was in the health service actually. And the guy said, I need to give my colleagues some feedback. I want to think about what I'm going to say. So he'd got his spiral band notebook, A4. In the health service, it's always A4. I love that. and he got his notebook and I was observing the coaching and the coach did a really good job and he wrote down these three things and I thought that's all in his head.
I, as the observer, of course, I had all the space and time to think about what I was noticing and the coach was doing a really good job but I didn't feel as the observer that I was completely confident that he was going to do it. or more significantly that it was going to have the impact that he wanted to have. So I now know, having done other training and stuff, that this is called real play, but I didn't know that then, I made it up in the room.
And I just said, how about you just stand up and say that? Stand up and say what you're gonna, those three things you've got in your notebook. So he stood up and he said the three things. And I said, so, and he said, she'd think I'm going to fire her. Wow. And I said, and the intention was, he said the intention was to really encourage her that she was going to get better and get promoted.
So then the coach picked it back up again and then they came up with something else that was a little bit more useful, but he didn't realize that the impact of what he was, of his very good bullet points, he didn't realize that the impact was going to be that she was going to think that he wanted to fire her. And you only get one go, don't you? yeah, you do. Yes, you do, Claire. think, and you know, it's funny.
When you were speaking just then, I was thinking, you know, the power of movement in coaching and getting people to, yeah, to actually move and stand up or move around and be in a different position or whatever actually is really... I can tell you I forget to do it sometimes, but you've made me think that actually if you just stood up and said it and experienced it that way, because I can think of loads of
occasions when people have said something to me and I thought, my God, and it takes your breath away and you feed it back and they go, I didn't mean that. it's a bit of awareness about how you're coming over or whatever, but it's playing it back, Claire, isn't it? That was saying. Yeah, and it's the difference between you. We're in. We're both sitting down, I think. Yes, and we're having a chat. We're having a conversation. We're talking about stuff.
But there's a difference for me, I think in the talking about position and the doing position. I had a conversation yesterday about a future web, a future podcast actually, and. The guys I'm excited I'm going on theirs and they're coming here and there'll be some really great stuff happening, but he just happened to say said, I'm about. I'm about to do my first series of webinars on whatever. And I've got to prepare them. And I said, that sounds great. Can I give you a tip? And he said, yes.
And I said, when you deliver the webinar, it might feel different if you deliver it standing up from then when you deliver it sitting down. And he went. course it will. But we don't think about things do we, unless we kind of, you know, the coach jargon says embody it, do this, but actually just be a bit different. You'll be a bit how you're going to be when you do it.
Yeah, and I had a conversation with somebody that actually wasn't a client of mine, but she just, well, you'll know this Claire, when you're a coach and you speak to someone who's not your client, they just don't expect you to be the coach anyway. But then you can't help yourself, separate supervision session. But I was talking to her and she said, I'm really nervous about standing up in front of this, like first time ever in front of this team of people and I've got to do this thing.
It's funny because I said to her, and I think she might have said it to me first, I said, why don't you just sit down then? She said, well, can I? was like, well, yeah. You've got your team of people round a table. Why do you need to stand? If you had more, you know, you've made me think actually, Claire, you you mentioned my TED Talk.
You mentioned my TED Talk and I, you've just made me think, you know, if I sat down to do my TED Talk, that would have been more of a conversation than me worrying that I needed to stand and present. Well, just made me think that Claire. It's, you know, when you've got nerve wracking and it's an insight, it, into people. When you're nervous standing, no matter the anatomy and the physiology of it all, you naturally put yourself on a pedestal, don't you?
And you sit down and relax a bit and have a conversation with people. And the red curtain and the lights and the cameras. So talking of the TED Talk front, Yes. How to be great at difficult conversations, link in the show notes. Tell us about the journey to the TED Talk. So, I think I'm a bit of an exception to the rule in some ways, although maybe I'm not. My husband is a mentor for Nottingham Trent University and amongst many other things.
he met a lady who, Jeff does this wonderful thing where he stands up. and introduces himself and says about his career and all of that. And I think at some point talks about me. And a lady came up to him and said, I'm thinking of being a coach myself. Can I talk? Would it be okay to kind of speak to your wife? Jeff linked us in together and I had a conversation with Mitzi. And she said, you know what you should do? You should give a TED talk. And at that point I said, No, I don't think so Mitzi.
I said, I don't even know where to. I don't even know where to start and even saying the words out loud puts a fear in me that I'm not sure it's probably the right thing. And she said, but I'm the TED coordinator, facilitator, owner of TED Made Marion Way in Nottingham, TEDx Made Marion Way in Nottingham. You could come and do it. And over the series of a couple of months of me going, no, I really, really can't and her going, but you can. I did it.
And that was how I did it, how I got into actually doing giving a TEDx, the content of it, you know, it's one of those things, Claire, you know, in the back is sitting in your subconscious somewhere, when you're thinking about, I don't know, your business, or if you talk to anybody about anything you could possibly talk about, I've always said it's about having a difficult conversation, right?
So that's why I made my talk on and, you know, I managed to make an acronym out of trying to be helpful to people and all of that and making it a TED talk. yeah, I think with my experience of my career, Claire, and my experience of my coaching practice, and you said it a few minutes ago in your example, when you talk to people in coaching sessions, and you say, you you agree or you you might say, don't know, something like, what do want me to ask you about next time? First question.
People go, no, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. going to do it. Okay. We've had a whole coaching session about it next time. So how did your conversation go? can't do it. I couldn't do it. I just, it came out wrong. I was too nervous. I was worried about the impact it would have. I said it, but it didn't have the same impact to your point about your example that I thought it was going to have. I messed it up.
And I just thought, do you know, if I could give you... a way of being useful and helpful to have these conversations and a bit of my background and I can talk to a few people about that, then hopefully it'll help some people have some courageous, difficult conversations that when you get to the end of them, they're not that bad. You've built it up in your mind to be something that you're really worried about and you've projected how you think that person's going to react.
But actually, a bit of honesty and empathy and basing it on facts gets you a long way. So that's what I talked about. You did. And what I really loved about your TED Talk, Fran, is that you tell a bit of your human story. Yeah. And that you're just really normal. Which of course is what people need us to be in coaching as well as on a TED Talk. Because when we hear somebody who's being very normal about something, that opens up other possibilities inside of us, doesn't it?
Then if we kind of guru someone, we go well, that's good. Yeah, I think I went round the loop, Claire, and it's probably akin to coaching really. You go in the loop, you? Should I share the story? Is it relevant to share the story? Would it be helpful? Is it a bit self-indulgent? All of those things. But when I gave the TED Talk, I wanted, I think there was part of me, Claire, if I'm really honest with you, that I just wanted to tell my story because I just needed to, for the people to hear it.
A lot of people knew it anyway, really, I guess. But you're right. It's telling the story to humanise it so that other people realise that they're not alone. That when you're going through it, other people have been through it. so it, like say, it can help you open up a bit more. It can help you find a way of crafting the conversation. can, it can just help you realise that to a greater or lesser extent, each and every day, you're going to have these difficult conversations.
And some of them might be the one that I, some of them that I talked about in my TED talk, they were really, really, really difficult. When five and a half years on, you know, I'd like to say through supervision and therapy, I'm probably over it, Mostly. Except when you're not. Not exactly. But actually, as a coach, and it goes back to what we said, Claire, and what you've always said to me, The human side of it means that we have experiences that we can use in our coaching conversations.
If sometimes we ask permission for it, if it will be useful and helpful. But that actually can just help people see that, well, two things actually, Claire, either we've all gone through something like it or something similar, you're not alone, or in a really self-reflective moment. when you were having a bad day at work and you were being like that with somebody else, did you have that impact on somebody else? I know you didn't mean it, but did you? And I think that was a large part of it.
And actually, my clients these days, people play stuff back to me. I do think, dear. You just think. But then we go back to what we were talking about before, Claire, you get them to hear it and it all comes into focus. That story thing a few weeks ago, we had a Timothy Clark here at the coaching and he was talking about psychological safety and the first mover responsive obligation of the coach to be a little bit vulnerable in order to create safety for others.
Yeah. And I think there's something about being human and being normal about stuff that opens up the potential to have a deep conversation. Because how often do we go, no, I'm the only person in the whole wide world who's experiencing this. It must be entirely my fault. It's never happened to anybody else before. I'm completely alone and I've just about got the courage to tell you as my coach. Yeah. And actually, Claire, you know, that is so true.
And if I think of some of my clients, you know, I've had the absolute privilege with a few people to have known them for three, four years on and off and whatever. And I can think of a couple of people who I've known them at that length of time. And I've always, what they told me in the chemistry session, I obviously took at face value and that was their story. Three years in, all of a sudden, it's like, well, actually I know I said that then, but no, it really wasn't that.
This is what actually happened. So creating a safe environment, you can create it. but it just goes to show and even in whether it's difficult conversations or in a coaching conversation, it's so important because I worked really hard at it. Three years in, somebody said to me, I know I said that, but no, really it was just the worst time of my life, Fran. Never said it out loud to anybody before. I've known him three years. And it's, yeah, powerful stuff.
Being the human, Claire, is what underpins it all and being like you said. When you've been a coach for a while and you've found your own style, being vulnerable can be game changing for the person sitting in front of you. I really believe that. Really believe that. I did a backstage tour of the theatre with my dad a few years ago and they showed us the dressing rooms and it was all really interesting.
When we were on the stage, it's got a slope and they were showing us all these interesting things and how they bring down the stuff and then the the guide went over, no it wasn't it was the theatre director went over and stood where the prompt stands and said this is where the prompt stands and he just said as just in normal conversation he said it might surprise you to know that the people most likely to freeze are the most famous actors who come here. So it's the chief exec kind of actors.
They're the ones who are the most likely to freeze. Yeah. Wow. Which I thought was really interesting thing. I think that's incredibly interesting, Claire, because I think people wouldn't genuinely think that. They've had all of the experience and do it day in, day out. But actually, it just goes to show, Famous actors, CEOs, vice presidents, wherever they are. I remember sitting in many a meeting room at Boots or wherever watching people thinking, God, I'll never be that good.
God, how did they, you know, they're amazing. But actually reflect being, being the coach these days, I can see that what it took to get onto that stage or doing that PowerPoint. It's a massive thing. It's huge. Yeah, wow. Makes you view people differently though, doesn't it, when you look at them through that lens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I he went on to say that they also learn how to manage it. which is a really useful thing. So, yeah, just fascinating, fascinating. Everybody's human.
And it just always comes back to it, Claire, doesn't it? If you sit with somebody making an assumption that they're this CEO of greatness or whatever, I think even as a just being a human being yourself, you're a bit in awe or you're a bit... But the one thing I've learned, and actually Claire, genuinely I mean this, through knowing you, one of the reasons that I'm doing my supervision with you is because you just, one of the first things you said to me was, just human Fran. Right?
was like, that's refreshing. Good. But... It's made when you go into any conversation with anybody, coaching conversation, difficult conversation with somebody or whatever, if you go in, go in. I'm nervous, they're a human being, they might be nervous. How does that then, what then happens for you? What space does that put you in to allow this interaction to be great? Right.
And when you go in, when you go in nervous or feeling like, goodness, you you remember people, lot of people, I was talking to somebody the other day about I've got a board presentation to do and I could see the colour just drain from their face. And I said, well, what are you going to just realise in that they're all just human, you know your stuff. What if you just went in going, just going to have a conversation with these human beings and I'll start from there. What would that look like?
And people go, I can't think like that. Why? Because, know, because I'm meant to be this person and it leads onto a whole coaching conversation. You hear the words, but I'm meant to be like this. It's really interesting, isn't it? Because where did that fantasy come from? That if I'm the coach, if I've come for coaching with you, that I'm broken and you're sorted. And therefore the gap between my brokenness and your sortedness is enormous.
Yeah, you know, gosh, Claire, when you said that then, I've got goosebumps. Yeah. And it isn't it funny how when you're, when you do, you know, when you do your chemistry session with people or they look at your LinkedIn profile or, you know, people say to me, but you've given a TED talk. It's one of the nervous things that I can't even begin to describe how nervous I was. But you did it. Well, I don't even, I couldn't even tell you how I did it, Claire.
But there is this, there is an automatic gap, isn't there, between people going, but you must be sorted. You must be the sorted person that has had a great career, that has got to this point, that is the coach, that is the supervisor, that is the whoever. Big up, big up, big up. Yeah. And then I wonder what it does. I wonder, it will. absolutely change the dynamic in the room because you're right, the gap can be massive.
But going back to what you said and the guy that was on your podcast, creating the psychological safety in your way, the way that you do it, whether it's through being a little bit vulnerable or telling a story or whatever, it just, it can't be underestimated, but it can take so long. to be comfortable enough to get there that the gap remains, doesn't it?
And actually, you know, I can think back to write my entire career, Claire, where I've had some interactions with some people that even thinking about them thinking, my God, it's just awful. It's just embarrassingly awful. But that's because I thought, I don't know so much more than me. They're so much better than me. I'm the one that doesn't know anything. I don't really deserve to be here. You must be the most switched on person in the world.
Get them in a coaching environment though, Claire, and create the space. create that container or whatever we call it, actually the human being just comes out. Which is, yeah, which when you get to that space as a coach, when I know, when I feel that we've got there, I do, I just feel so privileged to be in people's lives in that way. It's, yeah, yeah, it's amazing. That's fantastic, isn't it? Makes you think though, doesn't it?
I heard somebody say, you know, need to, what they need is, and you know, they were describing something, said, well, what they need to do is this, and I'm gonna be like this, and I'm gonna be like that. They don't need that, they just need you to sit and be with them for a bit and understand what they're anxious about, thinking, go from there. Do you know, I worked for a long time in a particular hospital in various different ways using coaches.
And I heard the same story from lots of different people across the hospital. And the story was this, they had a new chief exec, the hospital was in trouble. They had a new chief exec and one of the first things the chief exec did was to go round and talk to groups of staff, really to encourage them, but just to kind of set a bit of a vision and doing what chief execs do on arrival. Nobody told me what they said.
Everybody told me that on the first one they did, they'd got a graduate intern with them. And just before they went on the stage, they turned to the graduate intern and they said, if you were me, how would you do this? That's what everybody remembers. Really? Isn't that interesting? Very interesting. It's incredible though, isn't it?
I think what it makes me think, Claire, is, you know, and there's a lot of theory and everything else behind all of this, you know, you get so hung up on thinking that the words that you say are so incredibly important, your script and everything else. It's what the feeling that you create and the experience that you create for people that is what people remember. And I think the power of coaching is helping clients to be comfortable with that sometimes.
I know that you need to know your facts and your figures and it's a board report so you're worrying that if they ask you a question about the number on the spreadsheet you might not know it or strategy point that everyone might not agree with or whatever. but that's the experience you create. Yeah. And there's a famous quote, isn't there? I can't remember who said it. People won't remember what you said, but they'll remember how you made that feel.
Yeah. And I think sometimes people say to me, that was, thank you for the session. I just felt whatever the word is. And for me actually, then I go... So I've done my job today. If I've made you feel that way, then great. It doesn't matter what the feeling is.
It's just, if you could, if, and actually then as a coach, you know, when somebody says to me, you've made me feel this way, I do, in my head, I am thinking that's quite a big tick because actually you're more in tune with yourself as a human being rather than worrying that you're going to get something wrong. Someone's going to pick you up on a certain point or whatever. It's just be you. It takes a lot to get there, but just be you.
Wow. What an amazing conversation, Fran. We haven't really talked about your TED Talk at all. So, lovely listeners, go to ted.com how to be great at difficult conversations with Fran Kershaw. Go watch it and let us know what you think. Thanks, Claire. So, Fran, how do people get in touch with you if they want to talk more? So, they can absolutely. The best place to find me is on LinkedIn. So, my profile is just...
Fran Kershaw, Fran-Kershaw I think is my LinkedIn profile, that's the best way to get me. Yeah, I think and go from there, all of my details are on LinkedIn anyway, so you can get me. Fantastic, thank you Fran for coming to the Coaching In. Thank you for having me Claire, I've really enjoyed that. It's been amazing. Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening and we'll be back next week with another episode. Bye bye.
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