You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who are engaged in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn. I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and today I'm in conversation with my friend, Suzanne Hayes-Jones. Before we find out about Suzanne and her coaching journey, just a gentle reminder that if you subscribe or follow, you'll get every episode as it drops.
And also, if you love this episode, please share it with someone else, because we would absolutely love to double our listeners. You're already in 127 countries, so... Let's see if we can get the rest. Suzanne, welcome to the Coaching Inn. Thank you Claire. It's a pleasure. tell us your coaching journey. What brought you into coaching, Suzanne? Hello. It was so long ago. And I don't really remember the how, but I do remember when it was. So I had just joined Nando's.
as the head of learning development and they wanted to shift their culture at the time to more of a coaching culture and I was responsible for f**king with that and at this point I had no idea what they were talking about, didn't know what coaching even was so I thought I'd better start learning a little bit about coaching, given that I was going to be playing quite a big role in helping to make happen. So that's how it started.
What was fascinating was realizing that the stuff that I was actually doing naturally was called coaching. So that was quite a delight, but equally there was obviously way more to it. And I sat on a journey then to really discover what that was and what part I needed to play in helping with this culture change. So many, years ago. Wow. So what does it look like now, your work?
Well, work is very similar, only I'm now recognising that actually it is about simplifying and it is about That piece I just shared with you then about it just felt like what I was doing naturally actually had a name. I think lots of people actually do this stuff more than they realise. And so if we can really help them to recognise that, but secondly bring more of that to their work, I it just makes life a lot simpler.
So we can put all the fancy labels to it and you know, I know a lot we do and I'm certainly guilty of that in the past. But more and more now I'm thinking, you know what, it's what you talk about, it's what we at Laidware talk about, it's just stripping it all back to what are we really doing here and what makes a difference. Because it's just a conversation. Yeah, absolutely. That does something useful, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly. In partnership. Yeah. So you're an MCC. I am.
And we'd never met, had we, until recently when we had an amazing call, I remember. And one of the things you told me was that you were really interested in education. So tell us a bit more about that. It was a lovely call. And it was a call at a time when I was starting to realise the world needs something different. I think I did know that already, but there was a real feeling, a real calling for me of how do we take this to a much bigger audience?
And how amazing would it be to reach an audience of young people? so that instead of all the, what I see as retrospective shifting and shaping, we might actually give young people a chance to start out with what I think is quite innate, actually, but to help them tap into that and be more aware of that and know its value. And my big thing that's been like this for probably three or four years now is just helping people get seen and heard.
and how amazing would it be if our young people were able to do that for each other, what each other brought and respected and accepted. So yeah, something around, it kind of fits with this inclusive agenda, I suppose. And what I was noticing was actually the work I'm doing is quite exclusive because I'm focused largely on coaches. And then leaders, actually it's much bigger than that. So yeah, there's two important goals to people. More important than how do we make this more accessible.
So how's it going? Well, like anything, Claire, it's me doing my, you know, it be great if alongside juggling lots of other work and projects. So it's still in its infancy. But I'm, what I'm realizing is the beauty and the power of connecting with people. and spreading the word and suppose attracting like-minded so that we all bring our difference and our strengths and collectively, I think that's how I'm looking at the moment is I'm just one person.
This needs collective and we could create something really powerful and possibly a movement of some kind to take forward into a new future and a different kind of world. engaging, inclusive world I hope. That's so amazing because I can tell you what is so extraordinary about this episode is that you said to me, I'll come when I've got something to talk about. And in the next three months, we've got an episode a month about coaching with young people. I can sense.
And last month, we had an episode about coaching parents of young children. So it almost feels as though it's in the ether now. And bear in mind these episodes haven't been broadcast yet. So it's not that somebody's gone, you've just done this one about coaching young people, let me talk to you. It's that I've just randomly got messages from people going, you really must interview so-and-so. Exciting. Very exciting. So I think you might find some fellow travellers.
Well, the more the merrier because it's a huge opportunity. And like I said, it's not for one person to do. Yes, I've got real passion and energy for it. But it's definitely a collective piece in my mind. Yeah, and imagine what the world would look like. That's what excites me is imagine a world where parents and children got each other and were able to connect. Imagine a world where teachers and students and pupils were able to really hear each other and connect.
For me, it's all about connection and relationships and education. you know, the dream, so I'm going to put it out there now, the dream would be to get something on the curriculum. around life skills and deep listening and open conversation would be a big part of that. Imagine a world where that was the norm, where there was some real focus on that in the curriculum. then we'd all be out of a job, wouldn't that be wonderful? Well, absolutely, our work would be done.
And again, you know, for me, you know, I know lots of people are interested in coaching young people. I'm interested in teaching them to be able to hold conversations together where they wouldn't need a coach. Yeah, yeah, we had somebody on the podcast the other day who said, you know, we got to remember that humans were doing this thing. Thousands of years. Absolutely. And now we've made it a little bit special.
Which goes right back to what I was saying at the beginning, which is, I'm already doing this thing, but I didn't realize it was called coaching. think it's totally a whole host of people who are already doing this thing but don't realise it's called coaching and actually coaching just, I think, brings it to another level in terms of helping us become aware of what it is to engage in conversation, meaningful conversation.
Meaningful conversation, what inclusive conversation is on my mind at the moment because I'm really in the need to open it up in that way. Yeah, I've got this thing in my head called the despecialization of coaching. Fancy though, doesn't it? Or even the humanizing. Well, that's a good title. Yeah, mean that surely that's That's really what it's about, it? It's that real human connection. And all the work I know you do, very similar work, practice in a similar way.
All the work we do in our MCC work is really about human connection, the relationship, and really about process. About that human connection. If you want to take it deeper, maybe the soulful connection. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I always think about those those few words in the MCC something something, which talks about flow and ease. Yeah, statements are thinking of meaning. I love that. I love the idea that we're in flow and it's with ease. Because then we are back to having a conversation.
I don't know about you, but I often hear things that are technically fine, but that flow and ease is missing and it just feels a little bit not quite human. in. think in our last conversation we both said similar things but used different ways of describing so I think I was calling it a rhythm. I think you were calling it music. Yes. Yeah. It is, it's that real cadence isn't it? And for me, it's something that makes it feel very human, but also it's very precise in that there's a purpose for it.
I was listening to a recording today and I was shouting at it. I don't know whether I should have said that in public. I don't know how to respond to that, Because it was really good, but there was something about it that made me think, you know how to do this really well and you're doing it really well because you're, because I'm listening to it. Yeah. But because you're performing to me. Yeah. knowing that I'm going to listen to it.
There's just something about it that doesn't feel ease... full. It was so good that I was frustrated. Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? And I just wonder, you know, we talked a lot about recordings in our mentoring stuff, about recordings and what that actually does to the conversation. It does always make me wonder if it wasn't recorded, I wonder what difference that conversation. would have, you know, what would be different about the way they were having it.
Is it because, I I remember doing my MCC recording. Is it because the minute we press record, we feel we're in performance mode rather than in really present mode? to what comes. Yeah, the other thing that slightly makes me uneasy is the thank you very much for agreeing to have this recorded. because I'm now slightly in debt to you. And that's in brackets. And I think that really impacts the partnership. Because often what I notice is that the thinker will try and help the coach.
And actually what that does is it means that you don't really experience what's really going on. And there's a who's pleasing who thing. The coach is trying to please me or you. think trying to please the coach. Yeah. Just yeah, there's just something about it that I found doesn't quite work. I wonder how you capture that in a different way. I think back to the very beginning when I used teach leaders, develop leaders in coaching, and we used to observe them in real time.
And there was one program that we ran that we would observe them in real time behind like a police mirror situation. So they couldn't see us, but we could see them. And it went really well because they weren't really aware, know, after the first of July, weren't really aware of anybody watching or listening and were fully engaged. But again, we don't live in that world. don't have access to live training and observation. Or indeed a police mirror.
You see, we don't all have a police mirror with which to work, do we? That's a very niche kit. What are your What's your requirements for the training room? well, it has to have a one way mirror. I thought it was amazing, actually. I'm very forward thinking. This was easily 15 years ago. Yeah, that is, Yeah, one of the things that I, lately, when I'm talking to people about right sizing, which is how you and I started, you remember that last conversation?
I say to them, know, what I really want to do is I want to dive into the conversation live and I want to say to you, exactly what is it you're doing? And then I want to dive into the thinker and stop and go exactly what is it that you're doing right now? And I want both of you to agree. But of course, none of that's really possible. But I think for me, it's the...
It's one of the things that distinguishes art for coaching, which is my preference really, because I really don't like the word mastering. I'm in agreement. fact, I only literally yesterday started making notes on the art of conversation. I always remember my dad saying to me that television has killed the artist conversation. And I think the modern day version of that is social media. as we hide behind a screen. rather than engaging in some healthy conversation.
and maybe have stopped listening in reference to posting and talking and sharing our own stuff. Transmit. rather than invite. So yeah, thinking around the art as opposed to, as you say, the... ...lustery. I think there's a different feel for me around... On Saturday... So I had this crazy idea that it would be nice to go for a walk with some coaches and now all sorts of people around the world are doing it, it's really exciting.
I'll put the link in the show notes if anyone wants to go for a walk. We had the first one in Melbourne in February last year, February 23, I think it was, we had on a Saturday, there were 15 people. And the thing that was most remarkable was the depth of conversation that everyone who walked with someone else had with them. in. I nobody was coaching, I hope nobody was coaching anyone, because we have a no sales thing going on.
But actually everybody's capacity to deeply listen to another, you could see it and you could feel it and you could sense it. So if you were ahead and stopped for the bat to catch up, know, people were really deeply engaged in the proper art of dialogue. Not in there. other thing. And that's the thing is that I think there is a difference. So, you know, hear coaches saying, are they engaged in conversation, their family or friends say, stop catching me.
And that's when it's been lost a little bit, isn't it? It's been translated. Yeah. And maybe there is that. we're forever on duty if we look at it in that way, rather than stripping it back to if we're just having a conversation, your coaching skills actually are more about the listening. You're able to listen more deeply as a coach and invite that curiosity. So it's almost for me, it's like tipping it on its head. I knew how to have a conversation before I knew how to be a coach.
Yeah. To get back to what I knew how to do before, which is to layer it with the skills that I've learned from my coaching. And I'm sure you will have been a person at parties who listened to others. Absolutely. And still are. Yes, exactly. And what I noticed with my own coach is that a lovely feeling of being appreciated for being me. It's the invitation to have my own voice and to share my own thinking.
The I get afterwards of really being seen and heard and valued for being me, I just think it's good because it's a rare thing in my experience. I believe that's really what we're doing as coaches is we're offering safe space to teachers and it'll seem like they can show up more bravely, that's even the word, more curious to hear about themselves. Hmm. I interviewed Mark Gulston about two years ago. He's a psychiatrist in America. He sadly died.
He knew he was dying when he came on the podcast, which made the episode really interesting. But he talked about hearing and seeing and hearing and feeling. So being felt. And ever since then, I've just... That's just a really interesting thing to notice. in my own work and also when I'm listening to others, is that felt feeling? Can you feel the felt bit of it? God. that is another thing that can be missing if we get tied up in a recording. yeah. Because the focus is more on the process.
Yeah. Less on the connection. Yeah. Just back to the partnership relationship. What's the energy that we're creating between us? I'm doing a bit of training called Deep Deepening Partnership, is a bit of a challenge because it's new. I kind of want to go, what else is there to learn in this space? One of the things that I'm going to try in the pilot is to see what happens when you almost do entirely the feelings without the words, without the coach really asking many words at all.
In our improv presence training, both of our improv teachers get people to do an exercise where they're silent and they're trying to project feelings onto the other person. So you have to imagine that the other person is somebody in relation to you and you have to... I mean, it's bit fun, really. But it is interesting if I think if we can go into that side of ourselves and really develop our presence. even more. So you've talked about your hope for education and for the world.
What's your hope for coaching for the industry? Well again, I think in our last conversation we shared thoughts on... the professionalisation and the standards of coaching, so professional standards of coaching. So I feel a bit torn. I hope that we get to a place where Coaches are seen for the standard that they bring. And I still believe there's a lot in ICF that we can lean on there in terms of their competition. And I hope that we become a lot more relational in our culture.
And I'm not sure at the moment with the different accrediting bodies that we've got a... combination of the two. is my feeling. And more and more what I noticed when I'm mentoring is a lack of the relational piece and a real focus on the ICM competencies to pass a test in a way. and I feel I'm working hard to break that down. but I think it needs to change. from the bodies as well to make that less of a process to go through and a tricky process actually.
It's long-winded, not an easy process to navigate. So again, hope that that will become more accessible. And the other word I would use is back to that inclusive. I see it being much more inclusive, different approaches, not being quite so. Yeah. Are you okay if we explore something together? What? So, a few weeks ago, listeners would have heard Timothy Clark talking about the four stages of psychological safety.
And one of things he talks about in that episode is our first, he said that psychological safety is where you get rewarded for being vulnerable. And we had this really interesting conversation. It's worth listening to listeners if you haven't heard it, because it's extraordinary. But he said that as the person, as the other person in the conversation, we have a first mover responsibility to be vulnerable and not all of those things. And I absolutely agree with that.
So in my supervision community, I did a little video about this that came out today and somebody responded and she's absolutely right. And she said, so how do we fulfill our first mover responsibility? to be vulnerable and not be too big, not make it about us, not make it unsafe by accident. I just wonder how you respond to that. think this is really interesting topic. So. Where it took me then was again years ago. having the privilege of watching. Names just escaped me.
Community to change mountains. to come in a second. He, in his talk, he mentioned that as leaders, if we were going to really engage with our people, we need to meet them with our humanity, not our pedigree. And I've used that phrase so many times since. And I think it sits at the heart of what you just mentioned there. in this. or an environment to feel safe. There's an hour in it, trust me. But you can't know whether you feel that with me as the coach until we're in it.
But if I'm always mindful of coming to the conversation with my humanity and not my pedigree, and I think we get off to a really good start, I'm what I... code by the role modeling was a level of vulnerability. And equally in that creating the partnership is being really honest about where I'm at, what I'm feeling as we're sitting here together, starting this work together, as well as inviting you to do the same.
And I often talk about that in mentoring sessions, but actually if we're in true partnership, we have to get real. we have to invite what's going on with them as well as sharing what's going on with me. In the moment sometimes, not just at beginning and at the end. Not in your typical contracting and then reviewing. But actually in the moment, live, being real together. And that for me is real partnership. And also I would hope creates that level of psychological safety and trust.
So we are in this together. And we might go to some uncomfortable places, so both of us. So really together. and whether that answers for you. No, that's so useful because as I asked you the question as you started speaking, I thought it's humility, isn't it? And sometimes it's not saying a lot of things. Sometimes it's just simply how people experience us.
But I kind of got self-righteously cross after that conversation with Timothy Clark because I thought how often Do we choose not to demonstrate that because we think it will make us look weak? actually, yes, but we can't expect someone else to be, why would they be vulnerable and disclosing and exposed if we look like a machine? the heart of all trust and safety isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I certainly think I see that more in recordings of when people are coaching artfully.
I think that is far more present. even if it's not spoken of. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, I used the phrase leaving Aurigo at the door. I think there is something about that. It doesn't really matter what we think and it doesn't really matter what opinions we hold. As a coach, we are there to partner with somebody to help them do their best thinking. What we think, solutions pop into our head, whatever comes up, it's completely irrelevant. We can get our heads around that.
think we stand our chance at engaging in a real thinking. Yeah, so much to learn, isn't there? And actually it's interesting, it? Because I started off saying, you know, innately, we're able to have a conversation and we can listen and we can do this, but I think there's a lot of lived experience and learning that maybe has happened on top where we do have to unpack all of that. We do have to get back to humanity. to be able to really engage during the long session.
So listeners do pop us a message if you've got some insight into how to demonstrate humility without using any words. Because I think it's really possible but... mean the back end of that question is how do we teach other people, you know, do we facilitate the learning of others to be able to do that without accidentally inserting too much of themselves into the conversation, which is often what happens if we're too intentional about it, isn't it?
So send us a message to info at 3dcoaching.com and I'll share the answers with Suzanne because it'd be really interesting to hear what you've got to say. Suzanne, thank you so much for coming. You have to come back when your offer is a little more formed. your tribe is gathering. Thank you, Claire, because this is my first experience of being on a podcast, so that's great. And I can remember when you invited me and the first thought that went through my mind was, my goodness, really?
It's been lovely. knew I was in safe hands. So talk about psychological safety. I'm sure I felt that today. And it's been a lovely experience. Thank you. for inviting me. Good. So thank you, Suzanne Hayes-Jones, and thank you everyone for listening. So if they want to get in touch with you, how do our listeners make contact with you and your lovely business? So we're on Lady Bear Company, theladybearcompany.com. and they can catch all of me at LinkedIn. Perfect.
I'll pop those in the share notes. Thank you, Suzanne. Thank you, everyone. Don't forget to subscribe or follow if you want to get next week's episode as it drops. And if you love this, do share it because we like that very much. That'll make us do a happy dance. Bye bye, everyone. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media.
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