You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who are engaged in the world of coaching. week's edition of The Coaching Inn. I'm your host, Claire Pedrick, and today's conversation is around coaching and mental health and vulnerability and distress. And it's one of the biggest questions that comes up for us when people say, about?
And we believe that people are robust enough to deal with their own stuff, but actually, what happens when they're not and how do we manage that and all those things are really important questions. So let me introduce our guests for today who are, I'm looking at them in alphabetical order, Jenny Forge. Welcome Jenny. Right, hi. I think that Mark's first because he's a bee but anyway, if we go backwards but anyway, hello. Hi everybody. I'll go in first names. Okay, okay. So my name's Jenny Forge.
I'm a retired doctor and psychiatrist and I'm a PCC coach and primarily now I work coaching clinicians in the NHS. Brilliant. Thank you, Jenny. Mark Bixter, welcome back. Hi, thank you for having me back. It's a pleasure to be here. I am a coach. I have worked quite a bit coaching people around mental health and helping people to open up conversations around that. And I'm looking forward to this discussion today.
Fantastic. And listeners, you'll remember I grabbed Mark for this podcast when we were talking about the third sector the other day. Thank you for coming back. Mark Chappell. Hello. Hi, I'm Mark. I'm a coach. Don't particularly like calling myself a coach these days. I have a background of working for a group of GP surgeries working with some of their more complex clients that may have been turned down from other mental health services. Great. Well, welcome everybody.
And just to remind the listeners, if you want to get next week's edition as it drops, please follow or subscribe on your podcast channel, End of Plug. So Mark Chappell, you and I had a conversation the other day that kicked off this podcast. Tell us about your thoughts around distress and mental health and coaching and things. I think it comes from a place of looking at the perceived wisdom that coaching is not for mental health, if there's a mental health issue that it has to be referred on.
And I think that may well be the case, but actually I do believe that coaching is a very valid approach for some people. But you have to know where the boundaries lie. And you also have to know how bold you can be in regards to those boundaries, with regards to safeguarding and safety netting of those people. Say more. So I think as coaches, we are able to do quite bold work within the mental health space.
We are able to support people as long as we do have the right measures in place that if things are starting to do to go the wrong way, what do we do? And equally, how do we look at stigma around mental health, especially when a lot of the coaching organizations will say, you must refer straight away, which can feel like a drawbridge coming up when someone discloses something in relation to their mental wellbeing. And I don't believe that's right. And I don't believe that's actually useful.
And I think actually coaching can be a very valid intervention. within mental health when done well. Thank you. Jenny, you're nodding. Yeah, I completely agree. think, well, from several points of view, really, I think that coaching approach is used by mental health clinicians and clinicians generally. when I say clinicians, I mean people who work with people to help them live more rich, fulfilled, meaningful. sometimes symptom-free or symptom-reduced lives.
I think it can be very helpful for mental health professionals to use coaching approaches. I think it's also helpful for coaches to realize that they are going to come across emotional distress and to know that actually that old dichotomy, that it's either coaching or it's therapy really is much more gray and much more blurred than you could say, because whether you acknowledge that the emotional issues are there or not, they're going to be there. in a coaching conversation.
So I agree with what Mark's saying and I think that one of the most helpful things that coaches can do in that situation, and I'm talking now about coaches who aren't mental health professionals as well, officially mental health professionals, is to be aware about their own stuff, be aware about their own self, to be present. That's one of the ICF competencies, to be present and to kind of know how to sort of regulate themselves a little bit, be in touch with what's happening with themselves.
I think that can be a really useful thing that we as coaches can do for all the people that we work with. Yeah. As you're talking, I'm remembering a conversation I had yesterday about interrupting, where somebody, you know, often I think when coaches interrupt, they go, excuse me, let me just stop. I have to interrupt you. Yeah. And it's absolutely brutally cutting across.
And I think sometimes when we get to the edge of the boundary, People can be more brutal than they need to be and harsher than they need to be. Let me just stop you there. We can't deal with this here. I mean, what a thing to hear. And I think that's really, really relevant when we're thinking about the whole concept of trauma and actually sort of helping people to feel safe and trusted with things that are predictable is really key if you're thinking about.
trauma, but I won't go off down that route at the moment. But that's an interesting thing, isn't it? People feeling safe and actually there being something normal as well as special about the work we do is really important. Mark Bixter, what are you thinking as you hear this? I'm thinking how much I agree with everything that's been said so far. And it brought up a phrase to me as something when the organisation started off speaking about being a conversation jam and it was helpful.
of the things that we used to say at the start of that within a coaching session is you can talk about anything in the session. You can talk about anything. We might not be able to work on everything, but you can talk about anything. And I think this is a really good distinction that we can create an environment where people can share stuff that I may not then go on to work on.
you feel able to name and share and talk about and it may be relevant for the work we do and maybe somewhere else you want to take it. The door is open and people can go back in without fear. And isn't that normal? Yeah. And isn't normal so important? I was listening to somebody's recording the other day and they were asking about submitting it to ICF and it was absolutely brilliant, really brilliant.
And this person held a whole lot of stuff and a whole lot of past stuff was named by the thinker. But I don't think it's safe for them to submit. even though clearly none of that needed to be worked on. Because they were making it safe for this person to say anything. But the thing that needed to be worked on wasn't any of the things that were named. So I think the practice, the praxis, what people are actually doing on the ground and what the professional bodies say are slightly out of sync.
I think there's still a little bit of policing that is important because boundaries are really important, but how we manage the boundaries is actually the art, isn't it? March up. I think that is definitely the case when we talk about the of the organizations. I use the word industry rather than profession with coaching at the moment.
But I think there's this strange belief that there's this distinction between coaching and therapy and yet all the modalities within coaching come from a therapeutic background. person centers, Carl Rogers, know, CBC, which is CBT just with a different initial. is Bec and Ed. So we're taking these things from other modalities and saying, but it's completely different. And it's not.
And if you look across all the evidence about coaching, counseling, therapy, it's not the modality that tends to shift things. It's the relationship dynamics between two people. And I think that for me, as a or just a human being having chats with people, which is really all I do, is about being human, being normal and making a connection. And sometimes having someone feel seen and heard is just enough and we don't have to label it.
But I think we do have to check in to make sure this conversation is useful to the other person. And I think that's the key distinction for the way I now work, which is I don't really care what I call the conversation. It's more about the spirit in which I enter into it and making sure this is useful for the other person.
I just have a caveat actually, Mark, because I think that there, I agree with the thrust of what you're saying there, but I think that it's important not to assume that coaching equates to therapy because therapy is different. And I think that it would be dangerous to imply that coaches can actually do therapy and should embark on therapy because clearly to be a therapist, to be a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist, you have to go through different routes.
So I think that coaches can really, really have a very important role in people's mental health and people's mental wealth. But I think that it is, first do no harm. There is that thing about with the best intentions in the world, we need to be aware that we can potentially... be harmful to vulnerable people. So I think that yes, coaching can be useful. And yes, there's overlaps and blurred boundaries at times with therapy, but therapy is something a little bit different in coaching.
We don't diagnose, we don't give a treatment as such. And I think it's important to always have that in mind. And I completely agree with you. And I think what I'm speaking to there is what you mentioned before is that blurred line of where actually there's a little bit of ambiguity.
But I think yet again, that's knowing your sphere of professional competence and knowing when you're starting to creep out of that and where do you go with that and how do you do that in an artful way so that person doesn't feel like, I'm too severe for this. And also making sure it's safe and the person is seen by the appropriate people. And I completely agree with everything you just said there, Jenny. Thanks. Mark?
Yeah, it's brought to mind something that my supervisor has written about a few times and then she calls the three Cs, which I found really helpful to kind of help me figure out where I sit in it. And her take is that if the three Cs are in place and you can answer yes to all these questions, you're good to go. So is it contracted for, you know, is this what we've agreed to do? Is it? Second one is competence. Is it within your competence?
I, do I have the necessary skill to hold this conversation? And certainly is it in the client's best interest? So I may have some skill in it, but is it right for this person at this time? And that's really helpful for me to check in and say, actually, I'm slightly out of my depth here, so this needs to go somewhere else. Is it right for you today? Is this what you want to work on?
And for me, that's a really helpful framework to just check where I am in the, the, the edge of, of, this tipping into something else or does this do something different? So it's interesting because there's something about the skill set, listening, asking questions, being present, all those things that has a similarity. But the experience and the knowledge and the capacity to self-regulate, which is what you said, Jenny, isn't it, is very different in different spaces.
And I always love it when somebody comes to coaching and they say, I'm also in therapy, is that okay? And I go, yeah, that's absolutely fantastic. Because what I notice is that we can go much more, we can go much closer to the edge of what would be appropriate in coaching. Because if we go, if we get somewhere, which isn't for us, they've got somewhere to go with it straight away. And I noticed that I keep the boundaries a bit closer in when that's when somebody doesn't have another space.
Cause when you say to somebody, let's, let's Let's talk, let's see what we can do. if it becomes apparent, as you said, Mark, those three Cs that this isn't for here, we can talk about where that might be. And we can talk about how you're going to access what you really need here. But that's different when they can't access it tomorrow or this week. And there's going to be a time delay, isn't there, between now and when they actually get it. But mental health is part of all of us.
It's a human thing. And that just, yeah, fundamentally, it tends to be, some those talk to coaches say, mental health can't go there without accepting that you're already there when you're in conversation with someone, you're having a conversation about their mental health at some level, you know, it's with us constantly. So it's spectrum for where we're sitting on how well we're managing it. But on any given day, we're always in a conversation with people around their mental health.
it's not that you can't go there because you already do. Yeah. Yeah. And it's her. did we be with another? Mark? Yeah, I completely agree with- Chappell, you went, mmm. I just could, I was just agreeing with Mark. It's a fundamental part of everything and we're always on that spectrum. of moving across and that can change day by day, hour by hour, you know.
And I think it is something as coaches we do need to ask about because sometimes the people we're seeing may be coming to a coach because it feels more palatable than a therapist, but actually therapy or further intervention is exactly what they need. But having that first conversation around it, can start to break down those barriers. So occasionally in my work, it was totally inappropriate for me to coach, but we had that first conversation about someone's mental health.
So they'd already just started talking. So it's like the foot in the door. And then, you know, I've had my own challenges with mental health and, you know, we had a, with one particular person, I'm thinking we, I had a very honest conversation. And about my experiences, it was just a conversation. wasn't coaching, but he then asked me, could you refer me to the GP? Something he'd been avoiding for seven years. And he's now in work. He's doing really well.
I didn't do the majority of that work that was done by the right professionals, but that first conversation was a starter. So even though we may not be able to do the work, we can almost do the prologue, I think, as long as You know where you can go with that with someone. And you're absolutely right, Claire. One of the biggest challenges for me was trying to refer to say, community mental health or sexual trauma services and their waiting list is two years.
And what do you do in those circumstances when someone opens up and say, this is absolutely not my field of expertise and I can refer you. The problem being is it's now a two year waiting list. And that's a real, real challenge. And that's not the problem of the professionals in the services, is it? It's the system that's broken.
And I think that part of the problem as to why we have at times overwhelmed services is that my personal opinion, and I'm not representing any professional body here, this is just my personal opinion. I feel that as a society, we've over-medicalized mental suffering and emotional distress. think that we've made certain things disorders when actually it's part of human experience.
And there are other ways in which people can be assisted to move through difficult times and supported and healed without it being medicalized and needing to go to a therapist or a doctor. So I think that yes, services are overwhelmed, but I think that my profession has been sort has over-medicalized things in my opinion. Interesting. And sometimes what people need more than anything is to feel seen and heard. And as Dr. Mark Galston, who was on the podcast last year said, and felt.
If they can feel seen and heard and felt, that is a huge thing, isn't it? people, or for all of us. And all of those things, and for some of this dissatisfaction and suffering to be normalized. And by that, I'm not saying saying that it's always acceptable, but just to, you know, that sometimes society implies that we should all be happy all of the time. And actually, life's not like that.
I'm not saying accept unsatisfactory, you know, circumstances or social injustice, but actually to kind of realize that adversity is part of the deal, really. And that's not trivializing mental mental suffering, but I just kind of think that in making it all a medical thing, we haven't been very constructive at times. Yeah. Such an interesting insight. Thank you, Jenny. Mark Bickster, you work all over the place, including in prison. As you're hearing this, what are you noticing?
I'm noticing the power and quality of being with someone that feels more important than your ability to have been trained in any specific, philology or therapeutic intervention that is really helpful. for a coach because we can do that. We could be with someone without feeling ready to sort it out. I just remember this session I had a couple of years ago where the person came and as soon as I opened the Zoom room, the stuff started coming out.
It was an absolute barrage of... and complex and historical, present trauma, all sorts of stuff. Too much for me, don't worry. And I sort of said, what do you need in this moment? And she said, I just need to wash my dishes. I well, let's do that then. And she went and she put her laptop next to the thing, and we just continued the conversation. Everything fell into regulation as she was washing the dishes.
I don't need to be a mental health professional or a therapist to be with someone as their experiences something. I think there's something in that of how that's what coaching can really have value of being with that person in that moment. As long as we've done our own work. and as long as we're regulating ourselves and as long as we've done the work that means that we have no need to sort it out. And if we have no need to sort it out, we can be more present for longer.
If we have a personal need to sort it out, that's where I think it becomes ethically a really challenging thing and that's where I think coaches should not go there. So as we're talking, I think it's not about how do we know how far coaching can go? I think it's about How do we honestly, honestly, really calibrate how far can I go? And what is my personal need to fix? Because when my personal need to fix is high, then I shouldn't be going very far at all. Yeah, I completely echo that prayer.
And I think that the, you know, as you say, Mark, both marks the importance of being alongside people. as they're going through difficult things and kind of really being alongside them is so, valuable. And I also think that this point about knowing what's going on for us as coaches during that time really enables us to be properly present.
And I think that this idea, I don't know if you've come across this concept of dropping anchor, which is you kind of, you know, as coaches, you know, what anybody, you know, we acknowledge our thoughts and feelings, we really, you know, in this process, this so called, you know, few minutes of dropping anchor, we acknowledge the experiences, thoughts, feelings that we're having, we then kind of connect with our body and think, well, what's going on in my body at the moment, and then we fully
engage in what we're, what we're doing. And that's, that comes from a therapeutic model called acceptance and commitment therapy.
But I think it's really applicable just in everyday life for all of us kind of going through something tricky to kind of really, and this applies as coaches or as the people being having the coaching conversation, acknowledge our thoughts and feelings, connect with what's going on in our body at that point, and then fully engage here and now with what we're So dropping anchor, very useful, I think. Thank you, Jenny. Thank you.
I'm just remembering back to a conversation that had last week where there was a conversation and a supervision call about working with people, working with a particular person with ADHD. And that was a bit of a discussion and somebody who's neurodivergent said, We can't, when somebody else is being random, we can't be random with them. We can't follow them into all their randomness. What we've got to do is one of us has got to stay still while the other person's being random.
And actually, because there was a kind of discussion about whether you, you know, if they leave, do you follow them down every alley? And actually what you said, Mark, about the washing up is such a great example of, was you were just present with this person while they did all the things that they needed to do. to arrive. And you didn't do the washing up with them. I know you were on Zoom, you didn't take over, you didn't do the washing up, you just let them do what they needed to do.
So that dropping anchor also, Jenny, makes me think about us being that thing from T.S. Eliot about a still point in a turning world. And until we're able to do that, we should be really careful about how much work we do with, you know, how much coaching work we do because because it really matters and it's at the heart of our work. And I know we all learn from wherever we learn from. And it's a learning journey for everyone.
But presence, as you've said all the way through this school journey, and the dropping anchor and that stillness is really important. I think it's interesting how you said about coaching with people with sort of neurodiverse ADHD, ADD. And sometimes the coaches need to coach. they're all, need to focus this down, actually speaking from a personal perspective, so always diagnose severe ADHD.
When someone tries to narrow me down, one, it feels quite I don't want to use the word abusive, but that's the word that's coming up. It's like, you're trying to make me fit into what you think this conversation should look like because you're trying to be a coach. Can you be just normal and then just at the end say, well, after that interesting diatribe, what do you notice?
know, there's a lot because just because it looks messy on the outside could make perfect sense to the person on the inside. And that's, I think, There's a lot of learning around this of are we going to be humans that have great conversations or are you going to be a coach that plays competency tick box bingo? And that's the where I've come up in my, you know, probably 99 % of my conversations would not be ICF worthy. I'm totally okay with that.
I'm not sure that's true because I think you can be a human who has conversations with people and actually afterwards notice that those competencies were demonstrated. But that feels for for people who receive it so different from when your conversation is stilted because you think you're having to do what you have to do. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. I think the competencies need to be met because they're there for a reason.
But I think that if we're going through a checklist of competencies, then it's not going to be a very flowing conversation. It would be very stilted. So I think that we almost have to sort of embody, know, internalize the competencies, if you like, they have to, they have to just be readily accessible to us without saying, okay, right now, presence, ethical practice, you know, it's got to be part of us. And they're the important ones, aren't they? Present ethical practice mindset.
I had a really interesting conversation for the podcast, was on last week, the week before, think, with Shruti Sonthalya from India, and she was talking about power over and power with in the patriarchal culture that she comes from in India.
And she was talking about the different, the shift in organisational culture, when the leaders move more to a coaching mindset of believing that people can do stuff for themselves, believing that presence is really important and all those other things, it's really worth listening to because there's some fascinating stuff in there and she's also done some research around it. So yeah, useful and good stuff.
We're beginning to move towards the end of our conversation and I'm just wondering what insights and questions are coming up for each of you as we've been talking today. Well, two things. Sorry, Mark, do you want to go? so two things. Mark Chappell kind of pointing out very starkly the fact that yes, we're saying there's a limit to what coaches can do, but then there's a two year waiting list. So that kind of hit me between the eyes a bit. That's the reality, isn't it? That's important.
But I was also really struck by other Mark, your You're kind of being alongside that lady while she did her washing up. asked her what she needed and she told you and that happened and that was really helpful. So it was that really, really being present with her, really being present with yourself so that you were able to do what was most helpful for her or enable to happen what was most helpful for her in that session. So I seem to be really wordy, but you know what I mean.
Thank you, Jenny. And I forgot to mention at the beginning, your great book, Coaching in Mental Health. thank you. Yes, so did I. Okay. Jenny Forge, Coaching in Mental Health Settings and Beyond. Thank you. Practical applications, yes. I'll put a link to it in the show notes and I'll also put a link to that podcast, Jenny, that we had when we talked about it when it just came out. Thank you. So Mark Bickster and Mark Chappell, what are your insights and questions?
I was really struck by Claire when she said how we manage ourselves and look at our desire or not desire to fix, to solve. And it really made me reflect on how I am in conversations where some of this big stuff comes up that feels a lot.
And how for me, I have a greater ease in not needing to fix those things than in a simpler, like if someone comes and they say, I'm wanting mother to get this job, it's going to, know, it's going to, a 10 brand pay rise, so it's a bit more commitment, how are we going to be with my child? I can find it so much easier to get drawn into the weeds of that than my life is in complete disarray.
I don't know if that's so meaty but to then to just sit back and say, okay, I will not, I'm not gonna fix this. I'm processing this as I talk but it's kind of just sort of hit me that sometimes the bigger stuff is simpler to be with. than what can on the surface appear more like, should I do this or this? Which I can probably get thrown into. I'm formulating as I'm talking, so I'll just leave that there.
Simpler for you, but I think the gift that you've just given to all of us and to our listeners is what a great ethical check-in. So when something huge comes, is my natural stance to to step in or just to still be fully present, but just slightly lean back and allow the thing to fill the space. Because if our natural presence is to step in, we shouldn't be working with that person right now, I think.
So thank you for that, because it's those kind of testing out things that are actually part of us forming our ethical canvases, aren't they? They help us to go actually, how do I know in the moment whether this is the right thing to do? Yeah, so if you'd found yourself leaping through the screen and trying to wash up that cut. Thank you, Mark. Mark Chappell, insights and questions from you. I might have to mirror Mark and formulate as I go, so I apologise in advance.
I think there's something about safety and about knowing When I used to work in operating theaters, you had to know you had your emergency kit there in case you needed it. And I think there is something about having, knowing your safeguarding practices because that's part of it as well. There's knowing the services. If you're not working within an organizational structure where you can, I can send an email to a GP or whatever. Who do I contact?
Who can, if there's a genuine concern without disempowering the other person. And also, how can I signpost? And there's also something about where is the distinction of my sphere of competence and equally my tolerance for my own discomfort. And the two may not be the same. Interesting. Thank you. I'll also pop the show notes, the safeguarding podcast that we did with Nicky Brown, John, which probably needs updating, but I'll drop it in there for now.
Thank you all so much for coming to The Coaching Inn. I'll pop your contact details in the show notes if people want to contact you. But Jenny Forge, Mark Bixter and Mark Chappell, thank you for coming. This is going to create lots of interest, I think. So people share your insights and questions via email to info at 3dcoaching.com. because probably there'll be another podcast at some point on this subject. Thank you all for coming. Thank you all for listening. Bye bye. Thank you. Bye bye.
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