You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who are engaged in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn. I'm your host, Claire Pedrick. And today I'm in conversation with my friend Shruti Sonthalia from India, London right now, all over the world. Welcome Shruti. Thank you, Claire. It's so wonderful to be with you today. It's wonderful to be with you in the same time zone.
I think that's the first time it's happened. Absolutely. The first time it's happened and we're chatting. So wonderful. Yeah, yeah. So tell us about you and your coaching journey. What got you to this point? That's a wonderful question about my journey. And I think over a period of time, what I've realized is who I am and where I come from plays a very big role into the choices that's gotten me here.
And I think I come from a business community and that experience of seeing wonderful business acumen. and longing for the experience of flow and passion in the workspace was possibly a guiding principle that initially I was not very, very conscious of. So the initial choice to be a coach was just something that I experienced a great amount of power with. And as I became a coach and saw the transformation, in other leaders as well as organizations, it fascinated me.
But over the years as I've connected the dots, I think that initial journey of longing for both intimacy, connection, passion, as well as a lot of groundedness, I think has got me to this point. And in a more conventional way, if I had to answer it, So I got into organizational development and as I was doing that work, I realized that doing one-on-one work with leaders was equally important to transform systems versus only systemic approach.
And I think that was the key point of choosing to become a coach quite early on in my journey and then become a coach educator and so forth. Yes, and you're a very young MCC, Master Certified Coach, aren't you Shruti? I've always, think I relatively, yes. So I'm fumbling for words around it because I think age has always been one of those pieces on my journey. And I over a period of time just learned to take it very, very likely.
I think I was amongst the youngest coaches amongst the youngest coach trainers. amongst the youngest mentor coaches. So yes, it's been a journey where it's been a lot of work to shift the narrative. And I think it's been more of, I think the day I've become comfortable with it, doesn't seem to matter for people looking for excellence and quality. So I think that's become my guiding principle. And what a great role model you are for other people coming into the coaching profession who are young.
Yes. And I think that's the one thing that continues to inspire me that it's got a lot more younger people to come in and over a period of time, I've also seen young people in their 20s choose to become coaches and it's been, yeah, I've really enjoyed, when you, I think the more I've given myself permission over a period of time to be who I am. and just feel completely comfortable with it.
I think that's something I've noticed in the spaces I am part of that it seems to be attracting more of that. And I think that's been, yeah, one of my moments of joys and fulfillment that people have permission to be a lot more who they are. Yeah. Wow. And you've done this research about power and internal coaching and You know full well from conversations we've had before quite how obsessed I am with power and partnership.
Yeah. Give us a little bit of a sense of what was the motivation for that research. So I think the research is very, close to my heart because it brings actually three themes in my life very, very, it brings three things together. I think the first thread is a very personal one that I've always been inspired by this piece around power and love. And very early on in my journey, I came across this book or I was gifted this book called Power and Love by Adam Kahani.
And it has a famous Martin Luther King Jr. that, know, love, I think power without love is reckless. And I think love without, I'm going to get back to, I want to share the exact words of it because it's really something that has, know, defined a lot of my journey. So I'm going to take a minute to read that actual. quote out in a moment. But I think that particular piece has really inspired me and guided, I think, a lot of my thinking about power initially.
And I'm talking about this being part of my inquiry and thought process for about 10, 15 years at this point. I've also grown up in a very patriarchal society clear and it's been a lot of work and a lot of I think challenge that's really got me to work through different different, know, models of power.
So I've experienced a lot of power over in my life and I've also strived very very hard for power with and I think that journey of being able to journey over a period of time to be very, very comfortable in who I am in my own power. And now working with a lot of leaders, but also women leaders and people who might be at the edges, no conventional edges of systems to find their voice and power has always been of interest to me. So that's one thread that's very personal part of my journey.
The other one is having now done coach training for about 10 years. I've been fascinated by the shift I see in people from who they were at the beginning of a program to who they become by the end of it. And it really feels like after that initial resistance and frustration and anger to know how can we not give answers and know this whole thing about the coaching mindset.
So I think that journey of transformation that I've seen leaders make after going through coach training always left me curious. And I think in the last few years, I started noticing this significant change in them, especially in terms of what I've seen as one of the most important or critical aspects of what coaching brings. It's a paradigm shift that you actually start seeing people as whole resourceful creative.
And I think that's the single most I think critical shift I see coaching offering to human beings per se, that most of us are conditioned in a paradigm of power over. And I think the core underlying belief is that the other person might not be known. might not have the answers, they are possibly fragile, dependent, all of that, to really start seeing people in their wholeness. And I think for me, that has been personally a very, very critical shift in my life.
And that's what I started noticing in other leaders, that the moment they were challenged to start embodying this mindset, it shifted. their relationship with themselves, but across the board with their families, with their teams in how they operated and saw their role. And I think that fascination of, what is coach training doing? What is it doing specifically in terms of this embodiment of power? And then what does it mean for their leadership style?
So it started with the hypothesis saying there's definitely something going on here and how do we inquire deeper into it. So I think the research brings together all these threads that were brewing in me for quite a period of time. Wow. So what did your inquiry look like?
So it looked... like and I'm saying this with both a smile and some apprehension because I think the vision, the inquiry was much, much more expansive or I'd love so and then of course this research hypothesis was conceptualized in February 2020 at the onset of the pandemic or when we didn't know a pandemic was going to hit us and it's been quite a journey to
actually have the findings see the light of the day because transparently I've had many moments where I was not sure I'm going to be able to see this true. So in the form you currently see the research, there are 14 leaders that we have interviewed and they are across India, the United States and South Africa. It's a relatively small sample and yet I think it gives us a glimpse into the possibility that might lie ahead.
Interesting, India, South Africa and the United States because that gives different lenses doesn't it? Yes, yes and I think that's part of I think what drives me to do this work as well that I am really wanting to see more holistic research and research that includes a lot of diversity and a lot of non-Western perspectives at this point of time. And for me, that inclusion is about having non-Western and Western, so more holistic perspective to what's going on.
And that was the driving principle to the choice that we have three different continents as part of the research at this point of time. So what was the most exciting finding for you, Shruti? you That's an interesting one because I've had quite a few moments of aha around some of the quotes I've read and perspectives that we've seen come up over and over a period of time.
I think one of was that there is something there that people's perspective of power and how they relate to their teams truly shifts. And I think If there was one very, very surprising finding for me is that it doesn't only shift the leader, it shifts the team as well. So I was really surprised to hear that some leaders reported that it's not only them, their teams felt more comfortable staying with ambiguity. And for me, that was fascinating.
Like that was not something I'd ever thought or expected to show up. That's fascinating, isn't it? Because it feels like once the pressure's down a bit, we can all be a bit more honest. Yes. And I think as a leader, if you are able to, again, trust the power of the process and people. So going back to if people are whole and resourceful, and I'm going to trust that as this team here, we're going to find the answers. And I'm showing up that way.
I think I'm inherently giving people more permission to trust each other and the process. And I think that's fascinating for me around the ripple something like that creates. So what was the Martin Luther King quote? Yes, thank you. was going to come back to that. Thank you. So power without love is reckless and abusive. And love without power is sentimental and unhuman.
And I think that quote really, like I've inquired into multiple versions of power with and power over and Autoshama, Brené Brown, Gyaabu Claire know on simply coaching on partnership. I think all of them speak so beautifully to this thread for me. Yeah. And I think there's something in that dimension of power and for me. So power and love that continues to be this curious inquiry for me.
And I think it's, as I've gone through life, I also think it's one of the most hard, it's one of the hardest paradigms for people to embody, but I think it's one of the most fulfilling ones. So many ways. I'm not the coach so I can go where I like. that okay? I was in dialogue earlier this week with some leaders. One of them was a head teacher and there were some others in the room and they said, but we have the power.
know, by virtue of our job title and the way the organization is structured, we have the power. So what light do you throw on that when people are trying to use a coaching style sometimes and they also have the power? I think the first thing for me, and even in the way in what you've shared for me is I get very curious about what's the definition of power in operation now.
Because I think it's a word that's used and overused and abused in so many ways that I don't even know what it means for them. So the first piece for me is really becoming curious about when they say They have the power. What does that mean? Does that mean that they have the power to shift the system? Does it mean that they have the power to shift the narrative?
Does it mean that they have the power to make the difficult decisions that's going to create no disruptive yet, no really, really courageous shifts? I'm very curious on what that means. And if the answer is yes, that they have the power for all of that. that I'm even more curious on what that means in terms of what's coming in the way. What's their relationship with their own power? What's going on really there? What's their relationship with each other and what's going on there?
yeah, it's a fascinating journey of inquiry because as I said, like for me, I'm always fascinated by how much the word is used and how much It's actually not understood. Yeah, because all those things that you described there, none of them were about the power to fire somebody. Or the power to be paid more or? Yeah, and I think I'm digressing from, think, only my hat as a coach or a coach educator, but for me, there's a lot of fascination here.
I was recently doing a piece of culture work in my role as an organization development consultant with about 40 leaders. And part of our dialogue was around How are you going to reward the culture you are building? And how are you going to curtail behavior that is not taking forward your culture? And that particular inquiry was a very, very critical one.
And it was the most uncomfortable one for them because this organization is an eminency, but it's biased in India and they have a very, very high no cultural orientation towards harmony and no respect and no being polite towards each other. So it really was the core inquiry that was deeply uncomfortable for them.
And it goes back to, think, like power is so nuanced and juicy and complex and really to see what is it and what does it mean for that system at that point of time or that in which at that point of time. Yeah. So going back to your research, I asked what excited you. Yes. And I guess I'm curious about this difference or similarity between these three continents. What was the cultural, what was some of the cultural things that you noticed?
So transparently speaking, Claire, because It wasn't a very large sample and we had to really choose as to what is the question we want to answer. That was, think, one of my moments of choice because one was three different continents. The other was also some very interesting pieces around gender and power coming up. And to just we had to choose between looking at all the other themes that were coming up and being infinitely loyal to the research questions that we have chosen.
And I think at the end of the day, at least around the questions that we talked about, what does it do to your relationship with power? What does it do to your leadership styles? And how does learning, know, the coaching mindset, embodying the coaching mindset and other coaching skills really shift or impact you? There was consistency around all the three different continents and leaders said pretty much the same thing in how they saw coaching shift them as human beings. That's amazing.
So what difference do you want it to make in the world? Wow, that's a remarkable question. I want to take a moment because it speaks to me really important. Like it's a really key piece and it's part of the reason it's got me to persist so much to have it to see the light of the day. And I'll answer that on think multiple levels. I think the first one is that there is something about our interconnectedness. So I'd really like to see more research. That's not an isolation.
That's only right, if I may say, but I'd like to see more holistic research. And I'm not a researcher, Claire. I'm a practitioner who wore these shoes to make this happen. But I'd really love to see either researchers take this on or more researchers being willing to engage with practitioners like us to be able to manifest more research and research that really gives us holistic perspective and is inclusive and it includes the voice of work happening on the ground.
So I think all of those are really key to me. I think that's the first thing I want. I want it to maybe have one drop of impact in the research community to have more inclusive research and more holistic research. I'm really also hoping at a more contained level that organizations see the value of supporting leaders, learn this mindset.
that more leaders have access to some of these basics about learning, discovering, embodying, internalizing the coaching mindset, and really seeing what it opens up for them because truly it is a deeply uncomfortable moment of truth for most leaders.
Almost all of them hate the first part of, I say, I'm using a strong word, hate, but the first few days of coach training, that initial month, months of coach training, like I think the kind of angst I see is I think also that fertile soil in which growth happens. And I'd love, think, more organizations to make this accessible to leaders.
And I say that because I think we live in a world where the kind of complexity, ambiguity, uncertainty that leaders are facing is so overwhelming for so many of them. And there is so much isolation and loneliness for so many of them when you speak to them and I am in conversation with. And I really do believe that this offers a very attractive tangible, no path to co-creation, to curiosity, to inquiry.
So that's I think the second place where I'd love leaders to have access to this way of being and doing in some ways. And the third one is I think I want more experimenting with what this means in terms of building communities and having more power within our world. Because I think that's a very, very core inquiry to me. I think there's a lot more experimenting, prototyping that's possible. But I think if there are ways to see what this means, not only coaching.
So I see in, I think, a lot of humanitarian organizations coaching being made accessible to leaders at intersection points. And I want to see what coach training or again the same core skills of coaching and the coaching mindset, if they were to embody that, how would that shift the narrative? And as I say that, I love being audacious. I'd really like to see this in almost all organizations going after the SDGs focused on SDGs working at the intersection points of society.
So I'd love the UN, I'd love other key bodies to start of really seeing this as a key piece that's going to shift the leadership narrative and leadership approach for their leaders. So I think at all levels in the in the research and practitioner communities, in organizations, and then both in the humanitarian sector, and I would say in the public sector and governance, that really start seeing what this would do.
for me, it's really, I think my fascination lies that we talk a lot about this transition from power over to power with. And I think with coaching mindset, that single most thing that you're seeing another human being in a very different light, I believe, and you actually practice doing that and you practice and you practice. It provides a it provides a tangible path to moving into that dimension in some ways.
So yeah, I think those are some of the threads in where I'm sitting and hoping that it gives, or not just people, forward on this journey. I love your dream. Can we come back to partnership and power and that patriarchal culture that you describe in India? what are the signs of hope that you notice in an organization that's beginning to change the culture? Where do the small shifts start to be noticed? and I'm going to take a moment to think about that because I think there are so many.
levels at which I can answer that. So I think, Claire, over a period of time, think there are, as I'm thinking, as I'm thinking, reflecting on your question, I'm thinking about the different organisations I've worked with. And I think there are possibly different lenses based on who the decision makers are that really start giving them hope and insight into change. And possibly I'll talk about maybe two. two key ones that I've seen at this, like that are predominant, I would say.
What is, think, for the leaders themselves, so whether it's the MD, the CEO, the, yeah, that they've had a really transformative moment in a conversation with me, and it's not even a coaching conversation, but it's that coaching moment that makes a different paradigm. or give them a glimpse of a different world that's possible for them. And those are fascinating and beautiful, Claire, because it's really amazing to see what that moment does.
And I want to acknowledge that I've had the privilege of working with some really wonderful, fascinating, like I really loved the people for who they are. And I think when they have a glimpse of what's possible. I think they really then choose to find the courage to, you know, dip their feet into the water. So I think that's one of those, that's one lens.
The other one is, I think, when they start seeing results, when they start after that initial skepticism and worry and anxiety and hesitation, when they start noticing, my God, I've been, I have this narrative about this leader or this conflict or this team.
And I'm suddenly noticing that they are showing up differently and that they've had enough, not only that initial, but they've had in some ways enough moments of those truths that the new narrative suddenly has become, the glimpse of the new narrative becomes stronger than their past narrative around what they believe about this person or this conflict or this team.
And I think those are fascinating because there's suddenly been a tipping point and you've had enough consolidation of moments of shud that really then feels like that moment where the clouds are parting and you've started seeing the rays of the sun coming in for them.
So I think, both of those, and I can go into multiple nuances, for the sake of simplicity right now, I'd say those are the two moments where you really see Yeah, just some fascinating moments of smile, discomfort, yeah, sluggish acknowledgement at that point in time. I love that. So a moment and then a series of moments. Yes. Because that demonstrates what's happening, isn't it? I often describe a coaching conversation as being a conversation where there is a moment. Yeah, absolutely.
We've talked a lot about power, power with and moving away from power over. And we haven't talked about or acknowledged power, privilege, exclusion, white privilege. And I feel I need to name that as... Yeah, something that for me, I need to be working on all the time. because the culture I come from has accidentally or intentionally disempowered in many different ways. So. You're involved in all kinds of interesting pieces of work around the coaching world.
You've got your organisational stuff and you've got your coaching world stuff. What's the difference you want to make in the coaching world, part of the world? For me, access has been one of the most key pieces. And I think I've worked really hard to make coaching accessible at different points across the globe. And I think for the last few years, I've really experimenting with what happens. So part of what I've done, I think, is done a whole series of prototypes over the last few years.
And way before COVID or Zoom got familiar, like in 2016, I did a project for Peace Corps and Fiji and then in Madagascar doing coaching completely virtually. And that time internet connectivity, all of that was an issue. Sometimes it was just audio coaching because they didn't have the bandwidths to have strong enough even internet connection to be able to work through Zoom. And I think those what just what that did for them was humbling in its truest sense.
And then whether it's it's in a metropolitan like Mumbai, where someone's working with domestic abuse to a tier two city university trying to make coaching accessible to university 500, 600 university students, to people working with special needs or educators in a tier two city and teaching the faculty there. So I think part of what the core thread driving my work has, how do we make coaching accessible? And again, I think, how do we build a body of evidence on the power of it?
So very interestingly, the same time the research we're talking about got published a week earlier, another piece got published, which was actually about a project. it was a case study evaluation of a project we did in making coaching accessible to leaders of a school in a Teotu city in India. and the impact of that. And I think for me, going back to one is that we make coaching more accessible. And I think part of it is we're playing, we're really doing what coaching can do.
It's shifting the key narrative and the key possibilities in where our world is today. And I think, so. As I'm talking about it, for me, there's one part about the social change and it's connected to the social challenges that we are facing, including climate change that I'd love to see coaching address. And I think the other one is the quality of life or quality of experience. And for me, there's something really about well-being, about fulfillment.
Even as you said, hope that I'd really love coaching to offer to people, to leaders, to organizations. And there's something about vision that for me, like, For people who know me, I think there are a few words that I think are very, very core to what I consider my purpose or in Hindi, what we'd say dharma, which is that core thread that guides your life. And for me, there is that element of being a pioneer, a trailblazer, a creator that's really core.
And I think I'd love to see coaching shift that narrative for people in... what's possible for them as leaders? Where do they think? Where do they think their influence end and really challenge that? And where do they think that? What do they think is the role of their organization and to really help them see what more is possible?
And interestingly, the research really talks a little bit about that as well, that how it like it started to get some leaders to talk about or see what they traditionally thought was their role as a leader to what they are discovering now their role as a leader and a lot more as a facilitator to support others as well from simply considering it to driving business results. So how do people read your research? There are two ways to do that. I'm very, so how do put it?
So unfortunately, with full acknowledgement of what you talked about, power privilege access, that really breaks my heart. So the published version of it, I will share the link with you and they can get it, but there is, it needs to be purchased. So there is that, and I'm hoping the researchers have access to it through a lot of their university links. And because I think for me access is such a key piece and it aligns with the publishing guidelines.
have also, and based on multiple requests, I've also put it on my LinkedIn, which has accepted, it has the accepted version of the manuscript. And it's not very, very different from what I've published. are few grammatical maybe additions and no references that have been edited, but the core content and narrative continues to be the same. And that's available for anyone and everyone who's interested to read it on my LinkedIn.
And I can share that with you if you reach out to me in terms of a soft copy of that as well. Thank you. So I'll put Shruti's LinkedIn in the show notes. And if you want to pick up this conversation, read the research, then go do it. Shruti, what an absolute delight as always to talk to you. Thank you, Claire. just, yeah, not even just, I want to acknowledge how deeply fulfilled I'm feeling having this conversation with you. And that's always been my experience.
And I love how you, I think, Claire, just the quality of conversations and the threads you explore. It's just such a privilege. So thank you for the invitation and thank you for making this conversation so juicy until the end. Well, thank you for coming. And it's a delight that the research is out because we've had a few conversations, haven't we, over time? Thank you everyone for listening to The Coaching In.
If you want to get every episode as it drops, then please follow or subscribe on your podcast channel. I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been talking to Shruti Santhalia. Bye bye. Bye bye everyone. Thank you. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time.
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