You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn. I'm Claire Pedrick and today I'm in conversation with Mark Bixter. So my friend, Keeley Vuong-White, who you will have heard on the branding podcast, sent me a message and went, you must meet Mark Bixter. So I went, yeah, let's do that. Hello, Mark. Hi. So I know you're a friend of Keeley.
And I know she said you'd be great on the podcast. And I know a little bit about the kind of places that you work. And I know that we've got lots of listeners who'll be interested in this, but tell me about you first. Yeah. So I, at this point in my life, I'm a coach. and that's kind of first and foremost, how I describe the work I do. I've had, probably quite unusual. journey into coaching compared to how a lot of coaches come into it and would that be helpful to kind of just not help my...
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just give us a bit of a nugget. So many years ago, originally, I went to drama school, trained as an actor. And I worked as an actor for about seven years and then got a bit frustrated and fed up with, not with acting, but with... being an actor was a bit of a difference. And I did a career development program with the National Theatre and moved into theatre producing.
And so I was putting on events, plays, put on an opera in a car park in Peckham, lots of exciting, interesting stuff. And from there did a sidestep into working for a criminal justice charity. So It was a friend I met at a wedding and he said, I'm doing this job and I've got a bit of work coming up. And so I started creating devising arts projects for people who had been in prison or involved in the criminal justice system in some way. So that could have been a theatre project, music project.
And over time, my role there became less and less about the arts and I became more and more senior. And that led me into sort of career number three, which was senior leadership in the charity sector. So I was, was working in small charities for a number of years and I became managing director of a charity called Spark Inside who run a life coaching program in prisons. And it was whilst I was there that I initially did some coach training.
I didn't plan on becoming a coach, but this is what the organization did. And I thought it was probably good if I understood that a bit more. and through that training kind of Well, couple of things happened. One, I realized I enjoyed coaching and had some skill for it. And secondly, that I wasn't particularly playing to my strengths in the role. I'd kind of come into it, but it wasn't, I wasn't being at my best there. so decided at that point to make a change.
So I left that job, took a couple of months out to reflect on what I wanted to do. And that's kind of where career number four. came into being and I started coaching and that's led to all the work I do now. And you've probably got two or three more careers in you, right?
Yeah. I mean, I often say that, that right now coaching feels like the thing I want to be doing and it's kind of really, it's authentically, but you know, in five years time, maybe something else will develop or emerge and I'll step into that, but yeah. There's a couple of things I think are really interesting. there's a lot of interesting things to what you said, but you said, fell out of love with acting, not being an actor, acting.
And that really resonated because I think there's a lot of mixed feelings in the difference between coaching and being a coach. Yeah, yeah. I think that's true. And it's something that Keely spoke about of this sort of, gosh, I've got to market myself. I've got to be this business owner. I've got to do all this stuff to allow me to coach. Yeah, I haven't made that connection myself before, but yeah, it's very true.
Yeah. And a lot of the work that you're now doing is based on that credibility that you got from Spark Inside, isn't it? From the not-for-profit prisoners. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the majority of the work I do now is within the charity sector, working with charities, certainly third sector. I do some other work as well outside of that, but the bulk of it is within those sectors and it's come from that background. And partly, I think, what has felt important to me, what's driven me, I...
And not to keep talking about Gili, but she would probably disagree with me in this in terms of I've never sat down and said, what's my niche? What's my ideal client? But I, I've had a sense within myself of the kind of work I wanted to be doing and what was going to drive me and what was going to motivate me, which I suppose in a way creates its own niche. And one of the things that when I first entered the world of coaching that sat a bit uncomfortable with me.
It could be a bit elitist, it could be quite inaccessible, it could be like these people who've had long careers in management and turn into coaches and then they go back into businesses and that cycle continues and they charge hundreds of pounds and everyone gives themselves a pat on the back for all the lovely stuff they're doing and I'm sounding quite judgmental about that.
I think it's great, it's valid, there's nothing wrong with it but For me, I wanted to be working in a way that was more democratic or working with people who probably wouldn't be getting coaching if it wasn't for the organizations that I was working for. And that's been kind of one of my big drivers to this point. And you're working in a world where you have credibility. Yeah. And therefore you don't need a niche. Yeah, good point.
Because you're working in a world where you have credibility and credibility is actually more convincing than a niche. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Thanks. It's your biography, your contacts, you know, you get, it's, the most natural way, I think, to move into coaching and not everybody is able to do that or wants to do that, but to move into a space where you already have all that other credibility means people go, yeah, he gets this sector.
Yeah. Yeah. We know him or we know somebody who knows him or somebody we know knows somebody who knows him. And off you go. Yeah. Yeah. and that, and that was true. I thought that was a really nice alignment there because it's what, what I care about and it's where I sit neatly and fit. Yeah. Yeah. You're talking to somebody who's got that credibility in her story. So I get it. well I get how it is for me. So the re the, I said yes for lots of reasons.
when Keely went, go on, need to talk to Mark. But the number one reason was I talked to a lot of coaches who, who are really interested in how coaching is in the spaces that you've just described so beautifully, but can't quite see how that works. So I don't want to talk about how do you get work in that sector. My real interest in this episode is what does work look like and feel like in that sector? Yeah, that's a great question.
And I guess the not to talk too much to the question you didn't ask me and don't want to talk about, we can touch it, but let's not dig in. And I suppose, and I probably don't have too much to offer in most of the organisations who do this work and when they need a coach, I apply for it. That's probably the short answer. But there is something about working as an associate that makes it possible. So me as an individual, if I just decided, well, I want to go and work with vulnerable young women.
When am going to find the opportunity to do that? Or I want to walk into a prison and start working with people in prison. Like as a one-man band, that's a really difficult thing to do. It's not impossible, but it's probably not where I want to be investing my time when, as we just spoke about, I want to be doing the coaching. And so using organizations that have the expertise and the contacts to be a conduit to the work is one of the key things that makes it possible.
And I suppose the other thing that I like about working in that way is you're suddenly part of teams again, and you're not isolated as a coach. if you're working for an organization, there's a group and We might not be having loads of contact, but we've got WhatsApp groups and we've got regular meetings and we'll have supervision together.
So there's something quite empowering about that and rewarding about being part of a team again and not just being isolated, sat on my chair, looking down Zoom. So I guess there's some of the holistic things that it brings in terms of working. I guess in terms of the work itself, there's probably differences depending on which area we're talking about. Yeah. I'm interested in working with vulnerability because there's a theme I notice in your biography.
Are we allowed to mention some of the people you were with? Yeah. So maybe if I put that out there, like, so as I talked about the majority of my work is as an associate coach and I work with, sort of collect associateships. go and I currently got seven. I think it's seven. So I work with Frontline, which is an organization that works in children's social work services. So I'm working with social workers and some social work leaders. Most of the work is newly qualified social workers.
their first year in the job where they are getting their own caseload for the first time and navigating that world. I work with Spark Inside. I was managing a couple of years after leaving my role, I went back there as a coach. I work within the prison system and coaching prison staff. I'm doing more prison staff coaching at this point than coaching prisoners. Young Women's Trust, which is a feminist charity that supports young women aged 18 to 30 and all the challenges that come with that.
Then I work with Sanctus, which is a business, not a charity, but that is working within organizations in a slightly different way, sort of more drop-in sessions and working with people without necessarily a structured theme of we're gonna be working together for six, eight sessions or three, six months. We're gonna be working together for this time to speak about what you bring. and maybe you'll come again and maybe you won't, but we'll have the conversation we need to have.
And that work came out of focusing on mental wellbeing in the workplace and mental health. Sanctus has shifted, broadened that scope a bit more now to open it up. So in terms of vulnerability, that's it started to open up those conversations. Light bulb moments. My friend Johnny has a company. who does coaching and events.
And I've done some work with him and that involves some work with housing associations, so managers within housing associations and recently been doing some work with local counselors with disabilities and supporting them in their role. the final one is Quarterlife, which is my friend Chloe's organization and she became a coach very young.
quite, I suppose quite unusual that you kind of your first job as a coach rather than having had a career in transitioning and was focusing very much on supporting young people within their careers. And that's working with a number of businesses often with people finding their way as a manager for the first time. So that's the... They're all out there now. That's whole package of all my work. And then I have some private clients as well. And I also do some training for Moe Foundation.
And Moe Foundation is another wonderful organization that is all about community and spreading coaching skills into equipping people with coaching skills so they can use them in their community. So some people will become coaches. Some people will just have these skills. use them in their own world. Yeah. Yeah. And there are places on there where it's called asset-based community development and that coaching and ABCD are very connected. I have not heard that phrase.
I might have for someone that you could usefully talk to. Okay. Thanks. To do a bit of sense making there. So you've described, I love that you're doing single session coaching. And I, and it's interesting that you sort of a slightly apologetic about it. Single session coaching is a brilliant thing. And you're talking a bit about inclusion, vulnerability, transition there. Yeah. And the thing that I want to focus on, if that's okay with you is the vulnerability.
Cause I think that's where I get as a supervisor and a mentor, I get the most questions from people, which is what does it look like to work with people who are. significantly more vulnerable or might be significantly more vulnerable in one way or another than I might have been trained. Yeah, yeah. And I guess one answer to that is it's probably exactly the same as any coaching you'd be doing anywhere else. know what exactly what's what's going on for you today?
What do want to think about in this time we've got together and let's have a conversation about it and see where it takes us. I don't think there's a kind of specific distinction there between this is vulnerability coaching or this is how do I improve my Q3 figures coaching. The starting point is probably very similar. But I think there is sometimes a need to soften the edges around. Helping someone be coached. What is it they need to be able to feel like they can't be coached?
going into, let's say, coaching someone who's in prison and someone who has probably been outside systems for a lot of their time and having spent the majority of their life and certainly currently in the prison system being told. where to be, when to go there, when they can get up, when they can sit down and say, so what do you want? What do you want for yourself? What do you want for you?
It be in itself tapping into this immensely vulnerable place because it's not a question that's been asked of people before or they've not had the chance to reflect on that.
a way and it's an uneasy place to access because everything has been about doing what authority has suggested or pushing against what authority has suggested but not from a point of what do I want for my life and so sometimes you have to drop some coachy language and certainly... think we should drop coachy language anyway, Mark. Yeah, yeah. So if you think of a question like, so what's coming up for you in this space right now?
You know, something like if you said that you just get completely blank, blank looks, you know, and so being able to kind of guide someone and help them tap into that and feel safe enough to be able to say the things that they've not been able to say before to anyone. And I suppose that's one of the greatest privileges of the work I do is I get to hold these little nuggets of people's stories and journeys for a period of time that they have never shared before with anyone.
And that might be about their experience, but it might also be about, actually, this is what I really care about. This is the thing I really want for myself. What a beautiful description of being heard. And as you were talking, I was thinking people will have asked them that before, but they'll have been asking them for a case history. And you're asking them simply so that they're heard. Yeah. Yeah. and And that is the gift that we are pressing it to allow someone to.
tell you what they're thinking and for it to be honoured and accepted, respected and heard and not judged. it can sit there and we can both look at it and think, well, that's interesting, isn't it? How wonderful. And what should we do with that? So I think in terms of how vulnerability shows up, it's in those ways in actually just having that space where someone can put something in or say something out loud.
And I'm sure we've all seen that in coaches where all of a sudden stuff's coming out of their mouth that they didn't. where did that come from? And they're surprising themselves in the moment because there's been this opportunity for that to happen that hasn't been provided anywhere else before. Or if it has, like you say, it's been, right, we've got to fill out this form in order to get you your, this money. And these are the boxes. So you have to tell me this stuff in order to, rather than.
I'm telling you this about myself in order to support myself, order to change my situation. And I'm listening with that intent rather than to try and... get something or to... It's the inherent value of being able to say it as a tool of empowerment. that make sense? don't know where that came from. And as you were describing that there was something for me coming up about choice.
People can choose to say what they want to say and that might be a new space where they haven't been able to choose before because they've had to tell this person this and that person that. But the thing that's come up most clearly for me as you've been describing this is that actually this is about your vulnerability. And it's nothing to do with the vulnerability of the people that you're working with.
And you were describing the speed, the tone, the language, the way you do what you do is going to, is going to be similar and different because you're going to move to a different plot part of your range to be connecting to people. when you're talking to somebody who's articulate and, and, you know, driven and is used to talking about stuff, you're going to move your range to that space, aren't you a bit, but you're describing moving your range to a gentle, holy ground.
Yeah. that's just sort of maybe think about, you know, those times where you say, well, what's brought you to this session? What do you want to think about? I don't know. A friend signed up and they said it might be good. Yeah. And you're kind of starting from this place of almost, I'm not sure why I'm here. I just thought it might be a good idea.
in making assumptions and generalizations, but in an executive space, normally someone's come with an intention either because their manager said this is sorting out or they've opted to be there because they're struggling with X. All the people I work with have chosen to be there, but they sometimes don't know exactly why. There's some part of them that said, this feels like something to lean into, but I don't really understand what it is and I don't really understand why I'm here.
there's almost a stepping back then of seeing them as a person and let's just hear about you. Let's see what emerges when you talk about yourself and that will help us figure out what you want to do rather than coming in saying, well, I want a promotion or I want the pay rise or I want... new job or whatever variations of that there are. So an emerging thing. Yeah. Go on. Yeah. And I was reflecting on this today.
It's like, sometimes in those spaces, it's there's a letting go of goal driven stuff and sitting there and saying, what, what is it that's emerging as we talk? What are you learning about yourself as you talk about yourself as, as you, and that will that will give us the direction that we need to go and we'll follow that path. And and as we're starting to talk, things will emerge. There's an image in David Drake's narrative coaching book about it's like the opening up of a flower.
And it's hilarious. And it sometimes feels a bit like that with some of those people, like they turn up and there's this tight board. of, you know, that's filled with possibility and potential, but it's pretty closed and there's somewhere there's a willingness to open, but it's not present the first time and we start to see what happens and as they relax, the petals start to open.
And I guess that's the emergence of what's already sat there that needs to come out without us saying we need to get to X point or we need. I often describe coaching as facilitating someone else to think, but you've just described it as facilitating someone to speak and facilitating them to be heard. Yeah. First. Yeah, and I think that's, that's often some of the work in that of Can I talk first and then I can think about what it said? I heard a woman speak at a conference the other day.
She runs an organization called the Forgiveness Project and her name is Marina something. But the Forgiveness Project has a website. But one of the things that she was talking about was our need to be heard. Now, I talk a lot in coaching about don't get tangled up in the story. And since I heard Marina the other day, I've thought a lot about that because what I'm actually saying is don't get tangled up in the story of the problem. So we're not there to interrogate the story of the problem.
And the story of the problem is not really relevant. But you're not describing the story of the problem, you're describing the story of the human and the story of their life. you're doing this most amazing thing. for somebody with your story, I am very, I'm really impressed. That sounds a bit judgy. I'll take it. You're constantly using the language of we. And that tells me that we, that partnership is in your bones. Yeah. I that's true.
And you just reminded me of, I was in a supervision session when someone pointed that out to me as I was talking. And I sort of reflected on that of, yes, that's good, but stay aware to that because where is, where you take a responsibility in the way and... that's a great part of the work where it is, it is we together exploring this. And I noticed that you did a podcast which I haven't listened to yet about endings.
I must go listen to that because there's something about when the ending is in sight, where is the separation and it become you. So we will we will do this together. We can explore this and you can tell me, talk about anything that feels pertinent to this, the will come a point where this is, this is you. And yeah, I don't know if that just sparked something when you said that. So my print that we've had, we have some principles of coaching at 3D that we've had for many, many, many years.
And one of them is we for process, you for action. So in the room, When we're the stuff, we, we, because otherwise it's really lonely for the other person. Yeah, so But it's really interesting. I don't, you know, this could be you, Mark. It could be the way you've been formed as human. It could be your training. It could be the contest that you work in, but it's, I don't often speak to coaches who don't use some kind of descriptor for the other person that I experienced a slightly other ring.
And you've done it. You've once said, you've once used a name for the people you work with, but all the rest of the time you've said, we. And, you know, huge respect to you. Cause all that work about somebody's and nobody's another ring. says actually we need to be we well we're doing you know we need we are we we are together as humans and all of those things.
And I don't know, I mean, I'm just processing that as you were talking about, because I don't know if I've fully acknowledged that in myself before or thought about it in that way, but it does. I'm kind of struggling to identify in a different way or how that would be because I don't know, it feels very normal to me that we are in a conversation for the time we're together and we're looking at this, thinking about this, exploring this together.
And as you say, the session will come to an end and then. I'm not coming with you. I've got another week coming in hours time. So yeah, I'm not sure I was going with that. yeah, I thank you for noticing that. suppose it'll I'll take that. We'll have to have another podcast because I'm going to take a load of from this and kind of stick with it. And I'm sure you will too. And that's kind of how we learn, isn't it? As humans.
Yeah. But that forgiveness project thing is worth listening to because I think it would really affirm how you're doing what you're doing. but what you've described in the way that you work with people. is something about doing some things before you can even get into the space of coaching. Yeah. And respecting the thing that needs to be done before you get to the work as an important part of the work. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.
The analogy or MS4 analogy that just, it feels like going into surgery without having an anesthetic or something. If you haven't kind of sat there and been together in dialogue in some kind of unpressurized way that just allows the two of you to be together first, it's very hard to then say, right, so. we're going to do to sort you out, you know, you know, all that kind of stuff.
let's, let's sit with each other and understand what's, what's already here or what we need to do together to allow what needs to be said, be said. And, yeah, to not do that, I think would just get in the way. You're not going to be able to do the things that are most important to be done if that's not there. Just made a little list. I'd love you to come back to an open table. And I've just made a list of all the people who will be here if you say yes.
Okay. I to hear you all in conversation with each other. Yeah. All right, I'll say yes. I'll put it, I don't know what I've just said yes to really, but I'll say I'll say yes and then worry about it later in my. Excellent. That's great news. That's great news because I think I think what you've opened up in this conversation is, is we need to, we need to adapt. can stay true to the process and we also need to stay true to the people that we're with.
And that means that coaching doesn't always look exactly the same. And how you are. tells me that you do that as part of your humanity rather than as a know, this is the strategy that I need to adopt in this situation. Yeah. And that's where we have to start, right? With how are we, who are we, what am I bringing with me to this, both positive and negative? How am I showing up before I even ask you to share with me what package am I bringing in today?
Whether that's know, my son woke me up at five o'clock or I'm feeling slightly anxious about this conversation or whatever it is that we have to kind of know that stuff about ourselves before we enter into a dialogue of What are you breaking here? to really deepen our work and if we want to be different from the AI. So there's lots of dialogue, isn't there, at the moment about is there a future for human coaches because of AI?
And I think what... I had an AI coaching session a couple of weeks ago. yes. And? And I mean, it was surprisingly good. Well, of course it was.
for machine and then the other day I got an email saying you had your last coaching session a few weeks ago would you like to book in your next one and I was like whoa I didn't really I just did it because I wanted to see what it was like but yeah anyway yeah because the bots can do really good coaching in a certain way but everything that we've talked about today is about the wisdom of the human.
flexing and moving to make sure that that you're in a space where the person can feel they can speak. Yeah. And feel heard. And that you're facilitating their thinking and they're being left, you're facilitating their speaking and they're being heard before you start to facilitate their thinking. Mark Bixter, thank you so much for coming. I'm going to have to go and drink a cup of coffee and process some more of the thinking here. How do people contact you?
So you can go to my website, markbixterlifecoach.co.uk. You can contact me on LinkedIn, just Mark Bixter on there. There's not many people in my name, so pretty easy to find. I'm not the most responsive LinkedIn person. That's one of the things, but I will always get back to people, even if it saves me a couple of weeks rather than half a day that some people, yeah, can find me there. Well, thank you for coming to the Coaching In and everyone, let's expect Mark Bickster at an open table soon.
Yeah. The prize is if you know that you're going to be on the list. And thank you, Graeme. It's been a pleasure to come and speak to you today. Well, thank you for coming and thank you everyone for listening. Bye bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels.
We look forward to welcoming you next time. You've been listening to The Coaching In, 3D Coaching's virtual hub. For more information, check out 3dcoaching.com.