You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. couple of things in advance of today's episode of The Coaching In. Firstly, whatever platform you're listening to, do subscribe or follow the podcast and then you'll make sure that you get every new episode as they drop because they're now dropping, we're dropping four episodes every three weeks. So that'd be great.
Secondly, our guest today, Iris, and I do some of the exercises from her book, which you can't hear. So we've clipped a bit out of the silences. So it might feel that it jumps slightly, but bear with us because it's a really worthwhile episode. Thank you. Enjoy. Welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching In. I'm Claire Pedrick, your host. And today I'm with Iris Kvermont in Germany to talk about her book, Team Rhythm. So in a minute, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself, Iris, but...
Well, I need to say to you is last week's podcast led so beautifully into this week's, like it was as though we had planned it. Last week, we were listening to Oscar Trimboli talking about listening and he was talking about how he maps out a picture of of what he hears and the sound of the listening that he hears. So that's amazing number one.
Amazing number two is if you had come on the podcast when you were meant to, we wouldn't be having the conversation about the music and the rhythm of the conversation, which is one of the chapters in my new book, The Human Behind the Coach. Well, lovely. I love to hear that. Thank you for sharing. And I only opened your book. I said yes. when the publisher contacted me because it said about team, but I didn't realize it was the sound of the team. So tell us about your journey to this point.
And then I want to know all about rhythm. Okay, yeah, my journey.
I mean, started as a, as a child, I was listening to my mother's Teresa speech, she was speaking about business and how we can support this world even emotional pain is pain and therefore she initiated something inside me which is still inside me about the business world because I thought the business world I'm a mathematician so I love analytics and being a part of the business story and still... I see every day I started then as a software designer, software developer,
project manager, business consulting, going a little traveling around in the world in the telecommunication area. And yeah, then I figured out that it's really important that teams are engaged and empowered. And basically, leaders were asking me, I mean, they see a kind of different attitude when I am around or even when they notice I'm flying in and then they're asking me, how do you do that?
And in that time, I was reading a couple of books which were out there about who has moved my cheese and about who melt the iceberg and lots of team engagement books. And I just shared and we started discussing about this. And I recognize the difference between consultancy, which is telling others what to do versus listening. And here we are listening to the intelligence inside the room. And that is much more engaging. Listening, bringing that together, summarizing it, reflecting that.
And then everybody is on board and included and wants to go that journey, which is basically coming out of their brains. And the team rhythm, because my book is called team rhythm, was coming from music. I'm playing the double bass. And I was attending workshops, playing in bands. And there in the music, I recognized how important rhythm is and to find some patterns, to agree on something. and to take a deep breath in the beginning and to recognize the other instruments in the room.
And there are similarities in teams. I mean, we are coming to a meeting in business, and how important it is to take a deep breath and to listen, to agree on patterns, on a rhythm, and how nice it is when a team is coming into a flow and everybody can add. Yeah, own strengths as instruments do. Sometimes it's playing the flute or the singer has in its time. So giving each person the space to come up with own strengths. You just undersold your book so brilliantly.
So your book, Iris, is completely different from any other book about teamwork and working with teams, because it's all about the rhythm, right? And you've got these beautiful pictures where you've worked out how to write it in a way that the reader can understand it. Which is why we should brought your book out before we brought ours out because how do you communicate in a book the sound and you've done it so absolutely extraordinarily well. So how did you come up with that as an idea?
I mean in each chapter about listening and about giving feed forward or solving conflicts, I thought about one rhythm practice would be great to learn about that. I mean, because then it's not that serious, it's enlightening, it's fun. And then you can exercise and practice on a kind of rhythm exercise like... and see how difficult it is just to repeat an easy pattern. And then we recognize, yeah, that is complex already. Maybe that was easy.
But if you go to the advanced one and you say, let's repeat that, it starts to become challenging. And you realize, yeah, you need to be attentive and present in the room. And... And then it's nice to just exploit with rhythm exercise and then consider and reflect what does that mean in my business situation. Sorry, I am completely gobsmacked. Which is English for I don't know what to say. It's extraordinary. And the idea came up with me doing music since I'm a child, my youngest son.
He came up with some ideas because he's studying music and he's creating music and he came with some rhythm exercises. We explored them together so they fit from a musical perspective and then bringing that into the business situation. to have some light and fun exploring in a in a gameful way. All topics like that are important, peasants, conflict resolutions, giving feed forward.
We went to the theatre on Thursday last week and it was a musical theatre company and they wanted the audience to join in. And they did it. with the rhythm. So they were going bang, bang, bang, bang. And then they were getting us to join in and then they changed the rhythm and then we change with them. So take me a picture of what that actually looks like in an organization, because I'm so super excited. Yeah, as the whole team is exploring, I mean, they go in pairs.
And then they explore this kind of rhythm exercise, one with the other, in pairs, and then exploring, ah, okay, what does it mean for my business situation? And then they realize, okay, yeah, it's really important to listen what others are saying. And then they come together and share their rhythm experience, which they have. Or if you look at the, there's some exercises in pairs and some exercises are in the whole group.
So my second favorite after the listening one is the conflict resolution because then it's how to, one team or the majority of the team is starting with one rhythm and just three which are volunteers, they try to disturb the whole other team. And what does it mean to disturb them, to get them out of their arism? They really need to be convinced. And after this beautiful exercise, then the reflection is about, yeah, it's not that critical to have a conflict that is part of the journey.
But how we address it? Are we convinced or do we just want to disturb or... And then we give up because... that is not really good. But if you convince them, if you make our points, then suddenly, yeah, it's accepted. The others are listening because they are disturbed. They're listening to this other rhythm, which is also in the room. And yeah, and after a couple of times exploring the easy rhythms, the advanced rhythm, they explore even more and more.
and can take that into their daily business. And they have a fun experience with that one. Because it's much less confronting, isn't it, to say, once you've learned rhythm together, to say we seem out of rhythm here, because that feels like an external observation rather than an internal judgment. Yeah, yeah. And in that way, it's a... Yeah, out of their daily conflicts. It's not about words. It's about this rhythm experience which is nice and gameful.
And then transfer this nice exploration into, ah, couldn't our conflict, which we do with words, can't we do that similar to the experience which we had in the team rhythm exercise. Because it's, yeah, it's basically words are not so much different from rhythm. I mean, they are in a rhythm pattern. And I observed, if I may share that, it's not in the book, but I just remember a team observing their verbal patterns, which they have, because one one team was really nice.
One was ending and without even breathing, the next one just started to speak. And I shared that with them because that was extra outstanding. I mean, as they knew each other so well. It was still polite, one stopped. And it was not a break, but it was still kind of flowing communication. As if they would feel the other one is ending now, I can start. You know, we're going to get so many messages about this podcast. It is.
Has, has we noticed that when we train people to use, to use movement in coaching and, and we use improvisation and last time we had an online improvisation class, that's exactly what happened in the group. that as one group was finishing, the other group just picked up and you couldn't see the movement between one and the other. And there's so much learning, isn't there, that we can take from the rhythm, the sound, the movement into the work.
Yeah. And was it feeling like flow as you experienced that as well, or was it a different? Well, what was it really interesting was they... think 10 or 12 people there and they liked it so much that they said it would be better if they could see it than if they participated in it. So they suggested that we split the group into two and that one did it and the other one watched and then they swapped over. And when, when the first group did it, it was terrible.
They couldn't, they couldn't stay together in it. they were all taking over from each other. And then when the second group did it, it was like this most beautiful piece of choreography as they moved around the room. And afterwards, several of them went. Now we completely understand what is the dance of coaching. Ah, wow. Yeah. And I see similarities with those exercises.
Therefore, I brought kind of easy and advanced one and encouraged the teams to... repeat or do it in one workshop and then next time and see what has changed in the business and with the rhythm exercises as well. And it's about training and trying it out and see what effect it has after the first coming together, trying this rhythm exercises and the next one and the next one. And they're beautiful, aren't they?
Because you're describing things that can bring the team together, but they're also really positively part of the work that you do together. Yeah, and on top of the rhythm exercises, each one is a rhythm exercise. I have another exercise, which I invented as well, just individualized for one first client. And then I just change it slightly every now and then, but the basic is in the book.
So in each chapter, there is rhythm exercise to each skill on the, I forgot the name of the instrument it's on. It's a... Say it in your language. Yeah, xylophone. Ah, xylophone. Ah, xylophone, yeah. Xylophone, yeah. It's like each step, so first getting synchronized, raise efficiency, steps, tones, and then the final one gaining from diversity and, yeah, really continuously improve.
Wow. You need to thank Oscar Trimboli for that, because he said that when you were working with somebody last week in last week's episode, he said, if you're working with somebody whose first language isn't the same as the language you're using, and they can't find a word, get them to say it in their own language, and then they'll be able to find it. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Little experiment there.
And there was even one more which motivated me to write the book, or to call it Tim Rhythm, because there is a beautiful film. by the Berlin Orchestra and a friend of mine is playing as well double bass in the Berlin Orchestra and there was a film out there, Rhythm Is It?
And it was about rhythm, they went to schools and children were learning about rhythm and yeah, race skills, building trust, feeling the presence as well with rhythm and then they had a kind of audience and celebration afterwards. And they learned as well because part of this is about, yeah, as well focus, learning to focus, being aware of own body and mind. And this is... And to feel the sound. Yeah. I can't wait to share with you last week's podcast. It's not out there.
No, no, it isn't out there, but it will be. Well, by the time this episode is broadcast, it will be out there. So he was talking about learning from Evelyn Glenny. Have you heard of Evelyn Glenny? Not yet. She is, you have now, she is a British percussion player and she is completely deaf. Oh. So she hears the sound through her body. I first heard her play many, many years ago. She is extraordinary, but she, the whole rhythm. is experienced somatically and not through hearing at all.
Wow, how impressive. Wow. So much to learn. Yeah. And then you see how deep rhythm is inside us, right? Yeah. And it accesses, doesn't it? It accesses something that is more than the seeing or the hearing or the sensing it, it accesses something deeper. And one story I would love to share, which is not in the book either, it's about what I learned from music. I had a jazz singer lady, she was my teacher, a really wise lady in Munich.
And she was playing three tones and then asked me how many tones she plays. I should have closed my eyes and then guess. And I thought, oh, no, is it one or two or three? No, no idea. And with this, I learned, and she told me her father did this exercise with her when she was young. So her ears were trained to that. She could always say it's one and even which kind of tune it is. And this is, I recognized, okay, I need to learn, I'm a beginner in that really.
you know, like a child with three years, just three years. And, and, yeah, with my mathematician skills and with the consultancy skills. Yeah, I thought always, yeah, I'm, I'm advanced. And that, that reminds me of, yeah, in some areas, we are really beginners. And it's about growing. And if I meet somebody in business that It reminds me to take care and... Be patient and give space for growing wherever the other is.
I love that we can be learning new things all the time and that's such a good model, isn't it, to the people that we work with? And recognizing that as well as part of the music because we know we need to train to become better musicians and it's the same with leadership skills or with team co -creation, with listening skills. How often do people think, I'm a great listener? And there are so many layers and the people around would say, not really.
Yeah. Yeah. Basically, you're talking 95 % that is not really listening. And, and yeah, being aware. Yeah, there is something to grow here. There's something to learn here. And, and facing that in kind of in a hobby, in music and rhythm, whatever that makes it light. And it doesn't harm. In business, it's more like, yeah, that is me and I need to show up here. I have something to lose.
But if you feel that in music, then even if you transfer that learning into business, then it's not, it's you, you do not have anything to lose. I mean, if you're honest, I mean, that makes you stronger. If you know you can grow that, that gives you more strength. And that is a vulnerability. What Some other books are talking about. Yeah, yeah, but you're talking about really practical things that we can do to learn and to put it into practice.
Because I know that, so I listen to a lot of recordings of people coaching tomorrow, I will be listening to people coaching live. And I know that having had this conversation with you, I will be noticing the rhythm. So my question to you is, what have you noticed as the impact of what you now know in one -on -ones? in one of the world's best science. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that they are.
And as well, what I read afterwards, because when they write me references, because then I have it black and white, so to say, really how they really profit on that. And I encourage them to really tell me the truth with a reference, because that helps me on my journey. And what they're writing is basically, yeah, it was. Yeah, that they learned some easy practical tools to explore, to grow with their skills and it made their business life easier.
And that was my intention basically, why I'm doing this job and not fully focusing on mathematics and analytics. So with us, an example of what you might teach. Pardon me? Can you share with us an example of what you might teach around rhythm? We can try it. We can make an example together if you like. Yeah, let's do that. We can do the listening exercise. So we start with an easy one. Is that OK for you? It's fine. I do realize that I am now exposed to all our listeners.
OK. And as we are virtual, we have just snipping, this and clapping because as you can see. OK. Then we start with an easy exercise. And I start the easy one and you repeat. Okay. Okay. So, wow. So how was that for you? There's something beautiful, isn't there, about picking up where somebody left off. And now it would be your turn. You can invent something or create a rhythm with those. And I would repeat. Yeah. Oh dear. You see, in coaching, for me, the coach follows the other person.
So leading is hard. Okay. I try. Is that, or did you do it slightly different? No, I did it like that, but it's interesting to see how much attention you're paying to listen to me to be able to offer it back. Should we try now the advanced one? Are you happy for that? I'm very happy for the advanced one. Okay, I need to look at the pattern. You see now I'm overthinking. And that's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.
I'm definitely going to integrate your exercises into one of my listening master classes. And that because that was too much for me to hold on to. And I'm just curious about that, because that wasn't that many movements, was it? Yeah, and what we do in music, then we divide it into two smaller patterns and we just repeated two smaller patterns. And if that pattern, I mean, that is, what was it, one, two, three, four, five different rhythm, whatever, it was just a two pattern counting until four.
And yeah, what that reflects is how much attention we need. for listening to the wordings we reflect because that is even more than just this rhythm. and how much we really keep. I mean, basically, yeah, I mean, if I reflect a session with a client as well, what it means is. We build sometimes stories about what we've heard and... and we add something or we leave something because I mean, sometimes clients are angry.
I mean, I told them this and this and this and I tell them, okay, I mean, remember the rhythm exercises. I mean, maybe it's sometimes we think about the last vacation or our kids or whatever. So we listen carefully, maybe 10 % of the time and your audience is sane. I mean, We can do something, raise our voice and whatever so we have more awareness in the room. And still, I mean, 80 % of the people listening, maybe 10 % of the time, if we are lucky. So much to learn.
So Iris, what is your hope for your book and for your work? Yeah, to spread it. That people are really doing the exercises, maybe with a moderator who is a professional musician. They can contact me, whatever, but I would love that this nice engagement, this... trying the wisdom, transferring that to serious business makes it lighter and makes each person kind of, yeah, more happy, so to say. Wow. And so how do people get in touch with you if they want to find out more?
Yeah, they can contact me via LinkedIn or via my webpage. Perfect. And we'll put those in the show notes, everyone. And the book is called Team Rhythm, 11 Ways to Lead Your Team from Overwhelmed to Inspired by Iris Clermont. Thank you so much for coming. And I would love you to connect with Oscar Trimboli from last week's episode, because I think you'd have so much to talk about. Thank you so much, Claire. And lovely to hear your exercises you did in the theatre. Yeah, yeah.
And... Now I will revisit the chapter on the sound of coaching and the sound of conversations through your insights about rhythm and probably fill my margins with lots of new ideas. So really appreciate you coming to the coaching in today, Iris. Thank you. And all the best to the audience. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening, everybody. See you next time. Bye bye.
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