You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching In. I'm Claire Pedrick and today my guest sent me an email when I sent her the joining notes and said, please wear a headset. And she went, it's so amazing to be sent those because normally I send them out to other coaches because today's guest is a virtual assistant, the angel of coaching, Kathy Salisby.
Welcome to The Coaching In. Hi Claire. Thank you so much for inviting me. That was so funny. Yeah. I can't tell you how many times I have sent that email going, please don't be in a cafe with, you know, coffee grinders going off and dodgy Wi Fi in the background when you join a podcast. And then I, I literally made myself put my headset on my desk last night. So the shame of being that guest. It's all right. You're not that guest. I can tell everybody she's wearing a headset. I am.
So Cathy, you've written a book about how to work with a VA and what an amazing thing that is. How, why, if, because, but before we talk about VA's, tell us a bit about you. Yeah, absolutely. So I had a very varied career, pre -VA -dom. I was a restaurant manager for many years. and worked in pubs after graduating. I then was desperate for what I thought of as a proper job behind a desk, mainly because I have quite a bad hip. So running up and down restaurant stairs is not good for me.
So I took a job as a customer relations executive and nobody threw garlic bread at my head, which was vast improvement on restaurant life as far as I was concerned. And then, I fell into being a PA and I really did fall. I have no PA skills whatsoever. I can't touch type. I definitely can't audio type. And I just, I didn't really fancy the title secretary, but when I fell into being a PA, it was like I came home because actually what you get to do as a PA is organize people.
And I love organizing people and you get to help them do what it is that they do. and support them to do that and make their lives easier. And that, I just love that. That's what makes me happy every day. So, yeah, I fell into being a PA. And after many years of PA -ing for management consultancies, coaches, and kind of individual folk, I decided to set up on my own as a VA in 2014. And I've been going ever since. And there's now me and I have a team of 30.
associates who work with me and we support all sorts of people. We have a lot of coaches on the books, still a lot of consultants and a few left field folk who do all sorts of things. But it's great fun and I get to see what I love every single day. I think I might have a new customer for you. always nice. Who falls into the and other folk. Yes. Yes. It's funny, isn't it? When you say something and it triggers a connection. Yeah. If you'd said to me, do you know anybody who?
I probably wouldn't have made that connection at all. But you just described somebody I was talking to last week. Other folk. Other folk who do kind of things. Do stuff. Yeah. Yeah. People who do things. That's it. People who do things. People who have a busy life. I'm really interested that you've come into this organizing people thing from customer service rather than from detail admin. As you said, touch typing.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Those skills are wildly helpful, perhaps less so these days than in times gone by. But actually, with the improved technology, there's much less need to do things like audio typing or, you know, my cobbled together typing is absolutely fine. Because to be honest, I'm not, you know, somebody's not dictating a letter to me these days. They're, you know, leaving a voice memo going, Kathy, can you reply to so and so? Tell them yes, but not yet.
And can you reply to this person for my emails and say, Thanks, we've already got a charity of the year, try again next year, you know, and they, I get to use my brain, I'm not just a funnel for somebody else. That's the joy of having a really good EA who understands you. And to be honest, one of my bosses who I worked with for the longest period of time was over 10 years, I could write an email at her and within several weeks, neither she or I could tell which one of us had written it.
because I just, I was her brain. You know, I knew what her response would be and I knew her tone and I could write that email and no one could really tell the difference. So, you know, when it's a long way down the line, that level of understanding somebody else's ways of working, but it's entirely possible. And it's so easy to get bogged down into the, I have to do everything mode.
And there are quicker ways of doing things, even if you do have to do some of it, perhaps don't have to do every last bit of it when you've got somebody good supporting you. Yeah, Rebi and our comms team can write as me and I never know if I wrote it or not. Brilliant, isn't it? Absolutely brilliant. I love it. Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting because in my journey, I had a VA for a long time, years and years and years, and a team like yours. Yeah. And it was absolutely fabulous.
And then one day I realized that the business had got to the size where I actually needed somebody all the time. Yeah. And now we need somebody all the time. And there was a season when paper mattered, when I needed them to be able to touch the paper. And of course now that doesn't matter. Yeah. Because pretty much everything is virtual. But why do people choose a VA, Cathy? I think the beauty of most VAs in how they're set up is that we support multiple clients. So your commitment is less.
We're a freelance, you invoice us business to business with an agreed number of hours. So not that many people, you're at that point where you need a whole PA now. And we always think that's an amazing success. If we have to stop working with someone because they're ready to employ a full -timer, that to us is like the best ending of a working relationship. But most businesses don't need a whole PA. They need an hour a day or 20 hours a month or whatever.
And the flexibility of the VAs, you can absolutely have that. So you get support, but you don't have to commit to either employing them and all that entails with national insurance, holiday pay, sickness pay, all that kind of stuff. But you get someone who's going to work alongside you in your business. you know, with usually with your email address. And it's yeah, you just the payoff is you don't have them all the time. So like you said, you needed somebody just there when you needed them.
You don't have that so much with a VA because they're juggling multiple clients, you only get them, you know, a couple of times a day or, you know, when they check in, which some people it doesn't gel with at all. But most businesses these days. As long as there isn't the volume of work there, don't need somebody, you know, old school sitting outside their desk, ready to stick their head around the corner and go, can you get me a coffee? Or, yes, can you come in and dictate this letter?
Times have moved on, even employed EAs now, you know, a lot of them work remotely, or, you know, and come into the office a couple of days a week. So, yeah, it's, it's changing times, and it's much more flexible, but it's more of a business. Although we do actually have some quite big businesses on our books as well. We used a VA for many years to answer the phone and now nobody rings us up.
But in those days it was really funny because I used to work, I didn't work in school holidays, I didn't work after I picked up the kids from school at half past three and the VA would pick up the phone. And I can remember one day they were quite small and I was watching Blue Peter with the kids and somebody rang up. And the VA was so good that she went 3D coaching, Kathy speaking, how can I help you? And they said, can we talk to Claire?
And Kathy said, I'm sorry, Claire's not in the office at the moment. And this person went, I know she's there. because they knew that I was in. Yeah. Of course, Kathy's going, she's not working because she, yeah, I was watching blue Peter. Kathy wasn't going to put a good story to me because blue Peter was much more important.
Yeah. but, but what that taught me was that we were so seamless that the people who were ringing in actually knew that they were talking to the company, to us and not to a random person outside, which was beautiful. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because you're one of the team. You are. Absolutely. Even if that team is only two people, you're still part of the team. And I absolutely love that.
I love that feeling of being part of a team, whether that's you and your client or you and, you know, one of our clients got something like 200 staff. So there's, there's teams and teams and teams. And we're part of most of them. Yeah. wow. Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. So I have a question, which is in multiple parts. So one of our listeners is going to say to me, Claire, that was a double question. When do people hire a VA? And when should they?
When do they is usually a fraction too late, in my experience. They tend to look for a VA at the point when it's all gone a bit pear -shaped and they're drowning. They perhaps have lost all semblance of a work -life balance and, you know, evenings are... spent frantically catching up on emails and they should have done it sooner.
The challenge with doing it, so I'm going to answer in several parts, the challenge with doing it too late is not only that you're already exhausted because you're working too hard, you also don't have the time to commit to that new relationship, which is really important. If you're running 110 miles an hour, you haven't got the bandwidth to then give somebody new. the time to train them up to explain how things work.
You're just at the, my God, I just need to throw tasks at this person and hope for the best, which isn't ideal. I mean, you know, it happens, but it's not the best way. Ideally, you need to bring a BA in before you reach that tipping point. So as soon as you can afford it, to be honest, and you might bring somebody in doing less and then with a plan to ramp up in the future that. is absolutely fine. And that's how a lot of people work.
And once they get used to delegating things to a VA, they then discover that there are more things that they can delegate or the VA will go, why are you doing that? We could do that quicker. Or I'm sure I could do some of that. You know, they find things they can take off you, you know, after looking even horror and going, please tell me you don't sit down and do that every week. No. So yeah, that that would be before you get too busy, which would be the ideal answer.
Yeah, it's funny because my dad died recently and he thought he might need care. So he bought in care for half an hour every day. But in the end, he never did. These lovely ladies would come every day and they emptied the dishwasher, they hung out the washing, but he needed somebody there because on the day that he needed somebody to help him have a shower. It was too late to find somebody to help you have a shower. Yeah. And that's what you're describing, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah. Getting somebody in who can, who can understand how things work, what you're like, who your clients are, how it all falls together before they're suddenly having to do a gazillion things without that background knowledge. Absolutely. And it may be that they do empty the dishwasher for a bit, but that's good. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It may be that they do a bit of grunt work. to start with as they start to see.
But I mean, I do describe the book as a bit of a process you can go through to work out what tasks you do every day and which tasks you should not be doing every day. And as long as you've got a reasonable chunk of those, you can be sure that you've got something for them to do, even if that's perhaps not getting right in there, you know, dealing with client queries on day one. It's a bit like a jam alarm, you know, once you've got to trust them and got to know them.
In the old days, I had a I had an in tray for my fantasy admin person. Amazing. And all the time I was working, I would put the things that they need to do in the in tray. And you could do that, couldn't you, in a folder in your emails? I put everything in there and then one day the basket was big enough that I realized that I was spending at least three or four hours a week doing that their work.
But then it makes it really easy to delegate because you know what their work is because you've separated it off from yours. I love that. That's such a good way of doing it in this technical world of just going, I shouldn't be dealing with that. Somebody else can do that and just sticking it in a folder and then examining it. Absolutely. Absolutely. We do that with all our new roles, actually. Yeah, great idea. Just a real visual of what's there and what's outside of what you can be doing.
Because I think that one of the things that I notice is that the things that are most annoying to you are when we won't let go or can't let go or don't let go. Yes. Yes. that was a yes, yes, yes. yes, yes. Yeah. Micro management. It's a... It's not good. It's not good when you... And I did speak to somebody yesterday who made me laugh a lot. So I'm definitely sensing you're not a micro -manager. Well, I am if they're shit.
Well, you know, we're going to aim for notch shit, if that's okay, you know, but I get it. I think there is a tendency when you're nervous to over -engineer and over, you know, oversee things in too much detail. But once that initial getting to know you period is over, you have to be a bit hands off. Otherwise you're not saving any time. You know, if you're double checking everything, how is that freeing you up to do other more important things? It's not. So yeah, micromanage it if you can.
There are ways of, you know, we have some clients, micromanage is a strong term, but they're certainly very detailed focused and they like to be in the loop on everything. And most VA's will be able to adjust their ways of working to fit that. Some will find it easier than others. It would drive me mad, but I have had clients where I do it and you just get into a rhythm of it. And you adapt yourself to work with that person and their preferences. That's part of being a really good EA and VA.
Some people are easier to adapt to than others. Depending on what your working style is, I'm not naturally... detailed person I'm much more of a give it to me I'll sort it I'll shout if there's a problem kind of person so I know I work better with those kind of people. Just different personalities isn't it. Yeah. And actually, the detail people are not the people who need the VA first. Possibly. Well, maybe they are, maybe they aren't.
You know, some people can get themselves so bogged down in the detail that they're actually working more than they perhaps, you know, they perhaps need somebody to help them prize themselves out of the detail. But yeah. Yeah. So what's your hope for your book, Cathy? How to work with a virtual assistant, outsource everything but your brilliance, great title. Thank you. And it's got a little bit of weird karma to it actually.
Somebody many, many years ago when I first set up the business kind of gifted me the outsource everything but your brilliance line. And it was coach actually. And we were having a coffee in a really unimpressive poster in a garden center, just a one -to -one. And it just came out and she kind of went, you can have that. I was like, thanks. And it's kind of stuck with me. I've used it as my tagline because it just so effortlessly describes how outsourcing works.
You know, there are things that only you can do. That is what you are, hopefully, paid to do. And all the other stuff is not only you shouldn't be doing it, but quite often it's... actually dragging you down, it's using up your headspace, and it's stopping you growing as a business, but as a person as well, potentially. And I have this conversation so frequently with prospects and with clients, I should write this down.
So I wrote my first book back in 2017, which is virtually painless for PAs thinking of moving to the world of VAs. And that is a much more much more relaxed book, should we say. Quite a lot more gin and dogs and general mayhem in there. It's a sort of unbusinessy business book. This one was a bit more grown up, thank goodness. And yeah, I just feel like I have this conversation with clients and they kind of immediately go, yeah, I get it.
All right, yeah, it's not just about, boring ab and stuff I don't want to do. It's actually... doing this admin is actually holding me back from, I mean, in some cases, they're not growing a business. They're, you know, I have a couple of coaches on the books, they're heading towards retirement. They don't want to grow a, you know, an empire or anything. They're just happy doing great work with great clients.
But, you know, with me on board, it means that they don't have to spend a day a week doing admin. They can go to the allotment and big stuff. It's that simple, you know, they get to do what it is they want to do, whether that is building a business or it's having a life outside of work. So yeah, so it's been in the pipeline since 2018, but I think I was just a bit, I was a bit booked out of the first one and then we hit the pandemic and it got so busy. So it just didn't happen.
And then I got myself a new VA, the lovely Helen, and then suddenly found I had the headspace to go, yeah, I can write a book now. I'm not holding everything in my own head. So that's how it came about. On the back of many, many client conversations. So it's basically how to be a good customer if you work with Cathy and other VAs. Yeah. Well, it's how to be a good customer, but I think it's also how to be, how to find the right person. Because it is a bit of a minefield out there.
There are a gazillion VAs and anybody, a bit like being a counselor. can say, I'm a VA, let me into your business, let me see all your client data, let me meddle in your website, all the rest of it. There's no regulation on what we do as an industry. And therefore, finding somebody who is really important, knowing how to find somebody without. doing that horrific thing where you post on LinkedIn, hi, I'm looking for a VA and a million people will respond and tag in randoms from everywhere.
You know, you've got to be really, really focused. And hopefully the book is, takes you from, what can I outsource? Am I ready to outsource? Because sometimes the answer isn't a VA. And that's pretty clear in the book. Sometimes the answer is you need a PA employed. Sometimes you need a specialist, you know, you might need a social media specialist and marketing specialist.
You know, VA's cover a multitude of things, but unless they are specialists in their area, they perhaps only do a light version. And what you're going to have a VA do by way of social media, unless they're a specialist, is very different to hiring a full social media company who's going to create you a strategy and build you a plan and... you know, their worlds apart. So you need to work out what it is you want somebody to do. And then that can direct you into to who it should be.
And then it takes you through and how do I find this, this unicorn for me, and just gets you thinking about what kind of personality do I, do I need? Do I, and ridiculous things like, do I need someone who works school holidays? Exactly. You know, if you're, if you spend, weeks hiring a person for them to go, yeah, by the way, I don't work any half terms and you go, but neither do I and I need someone to demand the fault. Yeah, you're in trouble, aren't you?
So it's thinking through what's important to you. What what would really annoy you if it went wrong? You know, starting with that and you go, OK, so I need to make sure that whoever I work with does work school holidays, even if that is a sort of skeleton cover and.
I, if I do webinars and I need support on a webinar once a month of an evening, they have to be happy to do that because some, you know, like, like all freelance, as we set our own boundaries and hours, and some people will not work an evening. So it's making sure you've thought through all those nuances of who you want, and then a quite structured way of going out there and sensible, sort of schematic way to find the right person for you. So it's kind of a how to do it from start to finish.
And the end bit is kind of what I do in my business when I talk to somebody and I go through, right, okay, what do you need? Who would be a good fit? So it's that bit. But obviously people can entirely do it themselves with the help of the book, I hope. Yeah, amazing.
There was a season where we thought we might get somebody in Australia or New Zealand for exactly the reason that you... talking about because they had different holidays and also we wondered whether having somebody overnight, I add value. In the end we decided that wasn't what we needed but there are some businesses where having somebody overnight is exactly what you want because when you pick up in the morning it's all been done.
Exactly, exactly and we have some clients in the States and I'm always quite cautious and say you do realize we're based in the UK and we don't work those hours. I do have a couple of US based VAs, but they were not after that they wanted a UK based VA. But no, we know what we want. We're not time sensitive. Things don't turn around that fast. We want somebody in the UK. That's kind of our remit. So it works.
Yeah, it's just finding what we're finding what's right and things might change over time. You know, that's as you said, you've got seasons, seasons where there's all of a sudden a little paper seasons where you might have a load of clients in the States, for example, and all of a sudden having that evening cover is quite important. So I think the beauty of VA's is that we're not permanent, we're not set for life. If things change in your business, it's quite easy to make a change.
And you're not tied into an employment contract where you've got to give somebody notice and go through all of that with a VA, you just kind of go, okay, this is happening in the business. Can you work with this or do I need to find somebody else and take it from there? You know, we are used to clients coming and going, I would say, for eons, obviously, but others, it is just a project or it's a six month stint or two month stint. So you've got that flexibility and a lot of VA's know other VA's.
So one of the best ways of finding a VA is to ask a VA because they'll know somebody. So know what your criteria are. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And know what your, know what your lines in the sand are and which things can go. Like, you know, some people are really slightly obsessive about seeing people in person and they're like, I really want someone local. And you know, well, the whole virtual thing, that's kind of what it means. We don't really go out.
There's no, I mean, we do, but not often. And but some people really like to meet their VA and it's okay. Well, if you if there's a perfect person, but they live in Edinburgh and you live in London, is that going to stop you working with the perfect person? Not because they need to do any work with you, but just because you fancy a coffee or a Christmas lunch every once in a while. It's not a sensible trade off.
You need the right person and you just accept your relationship is going to be purely virtual unless you decide to go to Edinburgh. which is fine. We've had some clients travel all over the place to meet their VA's. So what are your top tips for hiring? Top tips for hiring are do your due diligence. So as a minimum, VAs should have professional indemnity insurance. They should offer you a contract unless you particularly want to use one that you have.
They should have the ability to contract with you and they should be registered with the ICO because they're holding data. That's pretty much everybody should. So if you've got those three things, you can pretty much... they don't look at you blankly when you mention them. That's a really good sign that they're properly set up businesses, they're not, you know, doing it for a bit of a laugh to raise a bit of extra funds for Christmas or whatever. So those things show that it's a proper business.
I would then be looking for... either LinkedIn testimonials or client references. And when, so in the book, there is a suggested kind of application form as such, because it isn't a job. So you're not advertising, you know, you're not expecting people to fill in the last three jobs on there, or send a CV or any of that kind of stuff. It is a business to business service, but you still need to get a sense of them as a person.
So I would always put an open ended question in there that says, I mean, mine, for my associates, there's something like, I'd quite like to clone myself, maybe a younger, slimmer version, but that doesn't seem to be possible. Tell me about you, how you can delight my clients and what you love to do. Just somewhere where they can say, this is me, I'm amazing, and you can check their grammar, get there, get a sense if they've got a sense of humor, because that's important to me.
It might not be for you and depending on the task, if you want someone to do data entry into an Excel spreadsheet, they can have the personality of a peach, right? It doesn't matter. So you're checking for what you need in that initial process, but absolutely vital to have a proper professional setup and to have a bit of background. You don't.
Everyone was new once and there's not necessarily anything wrong with having a brand new BA, but you're going to find them a little bit less easy to work with than perhaps someone who's been doing it for a year or more. And it sources the courses, you know, if you, if you're happy, if you're thinking long -term and you think, well, actually I want someone who's got loads of capacity and I want them to grow with business, then you might say, actually, if they're a bit new, that's kind of fine.
I can, I can work with a little bit of wobbling. just to get them early and get those times in. If you want someone who's really gonna hit the ground running, you go, well, I absolutely don't want anyone who's only been in business for a year. I want someone who's experienced and going to do the job right. Does that help? Yeah, I think what I'm hearing is something about if you're brand new to having a VA, having a brand new VA isn't probably the best idea.
No, no, you need someone who's gonna hold your hand a little bit, I would say, which an experienced... The AI will absolutely do. Yeah. They will, they will take you through onboarding. They will steer you through the process as much as you steer them. So yeah, absolutely. Fantastic. So I know that some of our listeners are now going, maybe I should could might.
So can you just give us, if somebody starts with a little bit of support, what's the kind of budget that they would need to have set aside for that Cathy? So it depends on who you talk to as to what a little is. For us, the minimum we do really these days is 20 hours a month. Some of our existing clients run 10 hours a month. Some VA's will do five. It just depends.
And we have some ad hoc clients who do nothing for months and then come on board and do 10, depending on what's going on in their world. So everyone works slightly differently as to how small is too small. So again, when you're... putting it out there, you probably want a sense of how many hours you think it is. People typically overestimate how long things take in my experience. Because it's how long they take us.
Because it's how long it takes you when you're trying to do your proper job and then putting all this other stuff around the edges. So, I mean, are individually our busiest one person, if you like, our busiest one client. probably uses 50 hours a month as a guideline. So that's not that many hours compared to a full time job.
I mean, obviously, BAs charge different rates for, compared to employees because you, well, you know, it's like your freelance, you've got to cover your holidays, your sickness, your equipment, all of that kind of stuff. So it's not an, it's not an, it's not an easily comparable thing, but. I would say 10 hours a month is probably a reasonable amount to start with if you think you've got that.
And when you talk to VA's and you say, well, I need this doing this doing this doing this doing, they'll probably go, well, I reckon that's going to be X number of hours. And I have in the past said to people, that's about half an hour a month. No, you know, it's not a volume problem they're suffering from. It's a headspace problem. And actually, that's not going to be fixed by VA in that particular context.
And in terms of UK, according to the most recent Society of Virtual Assistance website, or survey rather, the average UK rate for a VA these days is 29 pounds an hour. Many, many will charge much more than that. I mean, I charged more than that when I started 15 years ago. So it's... that's that obviously is a balance of people who charge 100 pounds an hour for very specialized work and people who charge 15 pounds an hour because they're new and they haven't got a clue what they're doing.
So I'd say that's on the low end. And also a bit like everything, you get someone who's experienced and knows what they're doing, they're going to do it faster. So you're better off paying a higher rate to get somebody better and have fewer hours than to have someone who's a bit new and you know, perhaps hasn't got the background, who's going to take more time, potentially need more checks. But that's a guide. Yeah, absolutely.
So what you're saying is that you can you can change your life for a few hundred pounds a month? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, it is entirely possible. My longest standing client is coach. And I think. I average somewhere between six and 12 hours a month for him every month and that basically takes care of his entire back office, everything. But he doesn't work. He probably does three sessions a week, something like that, four sessions a week.
So he's not a particularly busy coach, but you know, he has things to deal with like purchase orders and hideous client procurement systems and things, all of which I take care of. So, yeah, it's entirely possible. And once you start with somebody, you can then see, and they can then see, opportunities to increase and take more stuff off you in the fullness of time.
Yeah. When your VA takes stuff off you, that enables you to have more conversations, coffees, do more work and all those other beautiful things. Exactly. Exactly. And that is what if you run a business, that's what you should be doing.
You should be either coaching or whatever the magic is that you do with your, you know, whatever your skill is, you should be going out and finding new clients or doing some marketing, or you should be resting your brain so that when you come to your next session, you can bring to it everything that you've got rather than being a slightly exhausted pigeon from, you know, having sat and done a spreadsheet of expense receipts for an hour beforehand.
So, Yeah, it's protecting your brilliance as much as it is, you know, making time for it. I think people don't realise that energetically there is a cost to doing everything as much as hours in a day. Protect your brilliance. What a great line. So, Cathy, your book is How to Work with a Virtual Assistant, Outsource Everything but Your Brilliance by Cathy Salisby. And Cathy, if... Any of our listeners would like to work with you and your team, how do they get in touch with you?
LinkedIn is probably the best bet. That is my main social media function, or you can find me on the website, which is personally virtual .co .uk. But LinkedIn is good. You can hook in with me and we can have a chat. And I'm always happy to chat with people, even if we're not the right fit. I... can quite often send somebody off in a direction that might get them the right fit. Fantastic.
Yeah. Because we're not always the answer, you know, we have quite a specialised niche and that's not right for everybody, but I've got a great network and I consider it my karmic duty to get people the answer that they need, which is quite often sending them elsewhere. But I'm always happy to chat to people. Fabulous. Wherever that leads. Fantastic. Well, I will be introducing you. to this person who does other things. Excellent. Love other things.
Thank you for coming to The Coaching Inn, Cathy Salisby. thank you for having me, Claire. It's been an absolute pleasure. And thank you, everybody, for listening. I bet this is food for thought on your dog walk today. Take care, everyone, and see you next week. Bye -bye. Bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media.
And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time. You've been listening to The Coaching In, 3D Coaching's virtual hub. For more information, check out 3dcoaching .com.