You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching In. Today my guest is Brian Gorman, who is involved in group coaching and culture change and vertical development and other great things. Brian, hello. Hello, Claire. Welcome. Thank you. It's good to be here. Indeed, it's good to have you. So to start with, tell us a bit about you and your coaching journey.
We don't have enough time. We have plenty of time. So I will, I will make it brief. my journey into change began as a freshman at Syracuse university back in 1967, 68, I was doing youth work on the Onondaga reservation outside of Syracuse. At the time, the university's mascot was a native American portrayed by Caucasian fraternity brothers. dressed as Hollywood Indians and running around like they were drunk.
And. Needless to say, I recognize very quickly this was a xenophobic and racist depiction, tried to get the university to change its mascot for my entire undergraduate career, and I was not successful. Took the on the dog a nation 10 years before that happened. But the spark in me around change. was ignited in every piece of my career, as well as many of my external activities have focused on change ever since.
In 1988, while I was a management consultant at KPMG, I was fortunate enough to train under Darrell Connor, who is recognized as one of the founders of the change management profession. And, Darrell and I have are still in touch. We actually just emailed last week about a book that I was reading. But. Being a change management consultant means that you live in hotels and airports.
And probably about 2006, I got tired of that life and I stepped back and really started developing training programs around Darrell's methodology for his team as they were working with their clients. And then in 2016, my coach said, there's this coaching program I think you would enjoy, even if you don't want to be a coach. And the first day of training, it was taught by Damien Goldvarg, who's two -time past president of the ICF Board of Directors.
Before the end of the first day, I realized that I had been training my whole life to become a coach. Wow. Because from that very first bit of the story in the university, it feels like partnership really mattered to you. Partnership, character, and recognizing that just because something's been around for a while, it doesn't have to be that way if it shouldn't. Wow. So a pioneer. I've never been called that, but I guess so. Thank you. That's what I hear because.
That would not be an uncommon behaviour to expect students to engage in now. Yeah. Well, it's interesting, Claire. I often tell people my freshman year on Sundays, women had to wear dresses or skirts to the dining hall. Men had to wear neckties to the dining hall. Wow. Two years later here in the US was the murder of students at Kent State University protesting the war and we shut the university down. That's how quickly change took place. Yeah. in those days.
Yeah. So how do you spend your time now, Brian? I spend my time coaching individuals. I have my own coaching practice. I am also vice president for program development with Quantivos, which is a professional development firm with coaching at its core. And so I also coach for Quantivos. both individual and group coaching. And I oversee the development. Sometimes I do it myself. Other times we have others with curriculum design experience for the curricula for our group coaching programs.
Wow. So tell me and and gone. Sorry. And I read a lot because for one of us, I host a weekly podcast. And in fact, Claire is going to be our guest recorded tomorrow. There you are. So we'll post a link to that on the on the show notes, everyone. So tell me about group coaching, because that was what started our conversation, wasn't it, online a few weeks ago? It was. Group coaching is really a can be. just like coaching can be. Root coaching can be a very effective way to.
drive change inside of organizations to support leadership development inside of organizations. At Quantivos, we have used and continue to use group coaching in two general formats. The first, as I mentioned, is curriculum based. And there the structure is fairly simple. It is You do the book learning, if you will, and it might be reading, it might be videos, it might be podcasts before you get into the group coaching session in the group coaching session.
And in the group coaching session, everybody is the teacher, which makes it different than a workshop or a training program. the focus really is on, so what now that I've learned this, How do I apply it? What's getting in my way of making it work? And then coming out of that sort of part three is the, now I go do it. The second approach, and we can come back and dive into both or either of these if you want. The second approach is in culture change.
And I told you back in 1988, I trained in change management. So that's 30 some years ago. I have never seen culture change take root as I have when applying group coaching. The basic approach is that at the top, the leadership team identifies. what our culture broadly needs to be. And then I'll give you an example. This one client is in a very old industrial age industry and was old industrial age, top -down leadership. And the CEO said, we need to change.
We need decisions made across the silos at the level where. the people have the information to make the decision. It's passing information up and down, trying to get bosses to align, trying to get their bosses to align. It's not working. Once that happened, groups of leaders in the different areas said, and what does this mean for us? Very specifically, what do we have to stop doing? What do we have to start doing? What do we continue doing?
So the culture change plan really became just the stop, start, continue checklist. And then, and we brought in both group and individual coaching for those leaders. The group coaching was very simple. What's working, what's not working. How do we get what's working? What's not, I'm sorry. How do we get what's not working to work? Yeah. So everything you've described in the last few minutes has been about moving to action. Absolutely. And how different that is from many groups.
Yeah. Yep. And I love that if we don't move to action, why are we doing this? I agree. I agree. But what's really interesting is why does what you're talking about sound so radical when actually it's so simple. It's like simplifying coaching sounds radical, doesn't it? I wasn't trying to put you into anything there. So just paint what that looks like in in different organisational cultures, the curriculum one and the and the the culture change one be really interesting for our listeners to hear.
What does that look like? So let me give you a couple of examples first of curriculum. One is in a global organization that had begun a program of moving hourly employees into salaried positions based on competency, not education. And if you think about it, there's a fundamental difference when I'm an hourly employee, what I'm doing, when I'm doing it, how I'm doing it, where I'm doing it. It's all. under somebody's very watchful eye.
Yeah. When I get into a salary position, all of a sudden I have to take responsibility for my agenda. And so in that particular instance, the curriculum was based on things like, how do I take responsibility for my agenda? How do I build my brand in this new environment where I'm no longer just a cog in the machine, if you will. and so forth and so on. Now just using that last example for a moment, how I build my brand for me, a frontline employer now at an entry level salary position.
has the same principles, but is a very different experience than how I build my brand if I was hired into a senior executive position in that organization. So that content becomes different. It very much is tailored to the organization, the level of employees that we're working with. The group coaching, for culture change really would follow very much the same format in any organization.
now in some organizations where there's a recognition of the fact that not every person with influence has a title and not every title has influence. You may go through a different process of selecting who's brought into that. coaching program, but the basic structure would be the same. And how many people in a group? For us, anytime there's more than eight, we have two coaches and very often, at least part of that group session will be in subgroups, if you will, of some sort.
Now, typically in a group, we might have facilitated discussion. We will often have fishbowl coaching because we want people to develop a coaching capability. It's so important for leaders today. And so to see a professional coach coach and to really then explore with them what they witnessed, what that experience was like. for the thinker as Claire calls them, is really valuable. Very often in those curriculum based programs, they'll have peer partners.
So they may go into a breakout room with their peer partner, they may go into their breakout room with somebody else in the cohort, but we will often use breakout rooms as well. And then sometimes it's group coaching. So it's literally, I'm looking for a volunteer who is willing to explore an area of their own behavior that is not aligned with the standards they're calling their team for. volunteer in your pre -work you had to identify what area of your behavior you want to work on.
Please give us as a group a little bit of that background. And then we move into the coaching. Yeah, so a real level of vulnerability there. It's amazing, Claire, how. willing people are to become vulnerable in group coaching sessions when you create that container. I mean, I'm thinking of one we always. We'll check in. to ensure that the people are with the program, if you will.
And I remember one, it was a group coaching program with fairly senior salespeople in a national company here in the States. And... I asked the first session was on building a coach and culture. And we really touched on, we use Judith Glasser's model of trust. And so we focused on the importance of building trust and sustaining trust and what it means to ask powerful questions and what is a powerful question. And so, The next session we said, and what have you done with that?
And this one very senior sales executive said, I sat down and had a trust conversation with my best client. And we discovered we've been playing games with one another for years because we really trust one another a whole lot, a whole lot more than the way we behave with one another. Just thinking of that Brene Brown thing that says vulnerability is the first sign of courage. And I'm just wondering what impact you notice that courage has on the organisational culture.
in this very uncertain world of work that I personally believe is shifting. in ways that we still don't know and is going to end up someplace that we still can't imagine. Courage is critical. It takes courage to adapt to change. It takes courage to innovate. It takes courage to experiment. without courage, I'll just keep my head down and hope that I can continue working until I can get on the retirement bandwagon. And it's infectious, isn't it, courage? You know, it's it's interesting.
Yes. I just finished reading a book before yours called The Character Compass, and in fact, I'm. recording a podcast with one of the authors this afternoon. And they talk about, characters being contagious, whether it's good character or, or weak character, it's contagious. Courage is the same way. If I look up, if I look around and I don't see people taking risks, I'm not going to take risks. It takes courage.
at any level of the organization to ask the people who report to you, how can I do a better job of helping you be successful? But if I don't do that... somebody else is going to invite my best people to be successful in their organization. If I am arrogant enough to think I know everything you need. to feel fulfilled at work. I'm wrong. And I imagine you have so many beautiful stories behind this. yeah. Absolutely.
So when we spoke before, you told me that this is that there's also a connection between group coaching and vertical development. Absolutely, because. Yes, there are skills that can be addressed in group coaching, but a whole lot of the attention is on ways in which I can be a more mature leader. So help us understand what you mean by vertical development, because some people it's common language and others it isn't.
So if we think about leadership skills, leadership training and development as it typically takes shape, it's all about skills. So it's the skill of empowerment, the skill of delegation, the skill of time management, so forth and so on. I can go into a classroom and learn all of those skills and nothing changes. I take credit. I take credit for the work that my team did. No, I, still fault my team publicly when something doesn't get done right or something goes wrong.
Vertical development is maturing as a leader. It's, it's moving from the. leader is all about me. The leader is about we. And at some level, and it's not a perfect comparison, but at some level, it's going from the command and control leader to the servant leader. That's a beautiful description. And that's about humanity, isn't it? It's about vulnerability and courage and all the things that we've talked about. Absolutely.
So tell me a bit more about the connection between vertical development and group coaching. Where does the thing really have traction? One of the things I said earlier, I want to pick up on here in group coaching, the group is the teacher. And so I'll give you an example. We were talking about the importance of building interpersonal, not inter -role relationships with those that we lead.
and had one fairly young participant in the cohort who said, I really understand it, but I'm a numbers person. I'm not a people person. three of the other group members, almost like they were reading off a script and had gotten a cue from somebody, virtually simultaneously said, let's talk. because I'm real good at people and I can help you develop those skills.
So going from that, I'm a numbers person, I'm not a people person, to not just intellectually getting the importance of being a people person, but experimenting with learning, developing the capability. That's vertical development. And you've just beautifully described having a tribe behind you who are supporting you. And I loved when you said, let's talk, because of course that's the let us talk, which is the we that you've been describing. Yeah. Isn't it interesting?
You know that I hate that thing that says there's no iron team. This is your tongue out, and there's no I in group either. But you're modeling. What I really like about what you're describing is you're modeling the we. You're not talking about we as a really important concept. You're actually, you're making people immerse themselves in it and find their way. And one of the things that we're also doing is building community, building that way.
And over and over again, we find that whether it was peer partner relationships or just cohort relationships, they continue well beyond and address topics well beyond the structured group. Yeah. So what's your hope for your work? or your hope for the impact of your work. When I turned 65, I did a lot of reflection and I realized that I had some incredible teachers and mentors and lessons learned. And I committed to doing everything I could to pay it forward.
And so whether it's my coaching, whether it's the curriculum design that other coaches are delivering, whether it's my podcasts, my writing, my TEDx talk or anything else, it's all about helping others learn some of what I've learned so that they can benefit the same way I did. Wow. That's some legacy. We could have a completely other conversation, couldn't we, about midlife? Yeah. I'm only 74. There's a lot of years ahead here. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
I was having a conversation with somebody earlier today about, they said, I don't do a podcast. And I said, yes, but that's because you and I are in different seasons. And in my season, I want to give back. And in your, and, and not that they don't want to give back, but it's about what, what capacity have you got to do? What have you, you know, what you've got to do? Yeah. Interesting. So if people want to find out more about you and the work you do, how do they do that?
Well, Quantivos, which is Latin for choose to be your best. Q -U -A -N -T -U -V -O -S dot com. My own coaching is transforming lives dot coach. I'm Brian at transforming lives .coach Brian G at Quantavose .com and you can find me on LinkedIn. Brilliant. And our podcast is conversations spelled with a Q. And I'll post the link to our conversation that we're going to have tomorrow. Brian, thank you so much for coming to the coaching in.
Cause I think there's so much gold in what you've said that I know that this will be one that people will talk about for a long time. Thank you so much for this opportunity, Claire. Well, thank you for coming and I'll see you tomorrow. Yes. And thank you everyone for listening. Bye bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media.
And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time. You've been listening to The Coaching In, 3D Coaching's virtual pub. For more information, check out 3dcoaching .com.