You're at the Coaching Inn 3d Coaching Virtual Pub where we enjoy conversations with people who are engaged in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's coaching, Ian, I'm Claire Petrick. And today I'm talking to Sam Reen mcgregor, who has a really interesting background, humanly and professionally and has recently written a book called Leader Awakened. Welcome Summary. Thank you, Claire. It's lovely to be here today.
I'd love you to tell us a bit of your human story and then we'll talk about the book, but tell us about you. OK. Thank you for that. Um Well, gosh, there's, there's so many different facets to my human story, but the one that the one, the one that comes to me straight away, as I hear you ask the question is, is who I am and, and what my life and uh upbringing and roots uh uh project uh you know, from, from that point of view.
Um I was, I was born and raised in Venezuela and this was in the 19 seventies and my parents uh are from very, very different cultures. So my mother is from Venezuela and my dad was very fortunate to have met her in the States, having studied with her uh and he studied petroleum engineering in Venezuela is the biggest oil producer in the world. So he followed her down to Venezuela from California.
And uh the relevance of that is uh for me is that I grew up in, in, in a very international setting. I went to an international American school. It was an international school, but most teachers were from the States just because of the geographical location of, of Caracas in Venezuela, the the the northernmost country. And so I, I was raised in that very international context.
And then when I was 14, we moved to the UK and continued that kind of education, but lived in, in, you know, in a very different place. And then we traveled quite a lot throughout my life. My mother, my dad, my dad had a dream that he wanted us to see the world and boy did we and uh continue to do. So I think um the last few years has been a bit of a slow down.
But yeah, I think that for me is, is really an important part of my, just my, my, my personal, I guess who I am, my uh experience and it, it typifies the way in which I see myself. And there is a shadow side to that because, you know, with all the curiosity and the, all the, the, the diversity that I experienced as a as a, as an individual who my dad would call a global citizen when I was a young child.
It's um it definitely carries confusion sometimes and a worry about not being rooted and comparisons with people who, who are so yeah, that would probably be one of many human aspects to me. Yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking about the, the word belonging and that wonderful thing from Maya Angelou that says I belong everywhere. I belong nowhere. No place at all. The price is high. The reward is great. Yes. Yes. I think that's a gorgeous quote and it sort of touches me very deeply.
So you're an international citizen. Yes. Yeah. But the, but the tribe of international citizens are all different and we are very different and, and I think there's, there's another layer which I realized as I was writing this book that I recently published that um as I was writing about being uh a sort of international global citizen.
Um iiiii, I reflected on myself as a, as a, as a child, as a daughter, um as a, an adult and a professional and um more recently in the last 15 years, 16 years now um as a mother actually and having married a British man and the two of us, although we share a huge amount of interest in, in, in, you know, in looking at different cultures and, and immersing ourselves and all that. Um Yeah, I do get I do get corrected by my Children for my accent or for my idiom and what I get right or wrong.
And so, I mean, that's a tiny example but, you know, even, even in terms of mindset and customs, uh, there are, yes, I, I sometimes feel I don't even belong there. Um, even though of course we love each other and, and, and, you know, we're very much, um, a close family. But yes, it does as a, as a sort of third culture mother, as well as a third culture child. It's uh it's uh yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I had that culture child on my list.
Yeah. But that's interesting because, because you're describing the same but totally different because because your third culture child experience, I imagine is very different. Well, is it different from your third culture mother experience? Do you know, I've, I've, I've not considered that question. It's such an excellent question and it is different. Um And, and I guess where my mind goes is I consider how I was raised by two amazing people.
But who many times had, well, they had their own things going on because they both worked and we were in that environment where we were in Venezuela. Um So, you know, Spanish speaking and culturally that was the dominant place. But, and both my parents worked for, you know, a government owned Ve Venezuelan oil business. Actually, it was, it was private, it was private at the time and then eventually it became government owned.
But, but it, it, you know, very Venezuelan setting, you know, and, and my father learned Spanish to, to work there because he's Indian. Well, and I've forgotten that bit and, and, and they, um, it's funny, my dad was persuaded by a medical doctor at the time who had suggested that it's better for a child not to learn more than one language because it delays their development, which to a certain extent can be true.
But it, it only delays it, you know, in the moment and then over time, it sort of really diversifies and enriches it. But he actually, the more I learn about my dad over his lifetime, the more I realize part of his, his decision to enforce basically a bit of a policy in our home that we only spoke in English, which is really interesting living in Venezuela, um may have been a reflection on him, feeling left out and he didn't come.
And so that, that, that was a very, and I'm always making reference to language but, but that probably extended itself more, more culturally. Uh And I think as a, as a third culture mother, I'm, I'm far more wise, mature and very skilled.
And I don't mean that in an arrogant way but skilled because I feel that I've had the fortune of having worked at in organizations and particularly in the field that I work in that his, it meant I've done some fairly deep work about, you know, why do I get upset about certain things?
Why do I have maybe obsessive or um disproportionate reactions and situations and, and can't understand, you know, sometimes it's anger, you know, why, why is it feels unfair that you're pointing out that what I'm saying doesn't fit the mold of the dominant culture. And that, that, that applies in my immediate family, in my extended family as well as in social and professional contexts.
So that work has enabled me to engage with it differently and to regulate my emotions and to actually look compassionately at those people who didn't have such a varied upbringing. Like I did, I, I would love to come back, we will come back to your story in a minute, but I'm, can we just go with this bit? Cos I am really curious Sarine about what's different about what you notice in organizations because of that belonging and not belonging, inclusion and not inclusion that you've experienced.
Yeah, I love that question. It's something I've been considering um in the recent years and I guess a little bit of context. So, so I've, I've been a consultant and then an executive coach for, for, for quite a few years now, actually, for, for, you know, 20 years coaching really flourished about 15 years ago.
And what it's meant is I've tended to work on the margins so with organizations not within them but in recent years, I did work within an organization in this particular capacity, in the same capacity. And I think that context is really relevant because it gave me a very different experience being under the skin of the being that is that organization versus consulting to coaching, to an individual or a team that's set within the organization. And it has made me realize what it has been like.
And actually the fact I'm going to be honest, I've got a bit of a bias of working on the margins and being not a part of the system and, and perhaps having the, the luxury actually. Um and I've got a great metaphor that somebody once shared with me um when we were making sense of my experience. Um But it's a bit like I'd go into the organization as if I dip into the ocean and then I'd submerge myself and be there with the, my client system and with my, the people there.
And I do and because I do have a very, very clear tendency to be ambitious and very passionate and very, very, I, I can immerse myself very strongly in my work. So I'd be submerged. But then when I then work with a different client system, I'd come out, I'd dry off and then I'd go into the next system. When I was working within the organization, I was fully submerged and I never came out to dry off.
And that, that in itself was, was quite a, a sort of challenging ex existence, I must admit, um, particularly given the context of the organization at the time. But, but the reason why I think that's really helpful for me because I actually feel part of my gift and part of the reason why I love what I do and I feel I'm very effective in doing it is because of that margin space.
And although it feels like, you know, Christmas time, for example, for a few years, I'd go, oh, I don't have any Christmas parties to go to. Um, other than the ones that I arranged myself with my, because I, I subcontract associates. Um but I don't get invited and, you know, I don't get to go to the fancy dress.
And it's really interesting the things that, that, that provoke that sense of not being a part of, um, not belonging, not, not being held as something, you know, something that's part of an organization. Uh But from a professional perspective in, in terms of the functional aspects of my role, I think it's given me an enormous advantage. Wow, there's a lot of themes around belonging and inclusion, aren't there in, in your story? Hm. Yes. Yes, I picked up.
Yeah. So we've got you to Venezuela and then you came to the UK with your parents. Just pick up from there about your story. So I lived here um, since really, uh but I went to the international school in London. And then from there, because quite a lot of, again, it was very American influence. It's actually the American school in London, it's called that. Um and I was in that system. And so I um just following the mold, I and following my parents' footsteps, I went and studied in the US.
And so did my brother. He was seven years senior to me and he was already there. So I did study in upstate New York, which was a beautiful university and absolutely amazing. It's actually very like, highly ranked in the um multi sort of, it's, it's a liberal arts education. So you don't sort of specify what you want to study because I'm not sure what I wanted to say. It was small, very sporty actually. Um but quite homogeneous. So, again, this whole theme of I'll never forget this.
I was, I went out with someone who his mother said, what could you, could you not have found yourself a white girl? And uh I've never been, I've, I've never ever had that sort of reference made to me if that makes sense. And in the university there was also quite a active um you know, students of color group, um which I obviously would integrate quite easily with because, you know, there are a lot of Puerto Ricans and, and, you know, lots of different um uh identities in that, in that group.
And, and so, you know, I'd sort of fit in there but I'd also sort of, you know, the meander into, into, into all sorts of, of different friendships and relationships that, that, that had nothing to do with whether, you know, we looked a certain, certain color or came from a different nationality.
Um, so, but, but I remember that was my first ever proper, if I'm honest, first ever introduction to, I'm not white, I'm something else and actually, it's being associated with something that's not desirable by my boyfriend's uh mother. And actually, ironically that boyfriend, um years later came out and was gay. So, you know, it's, it's fascinating how, that's how that's evolved. But, um, you know, I, yeah, II, I studied there. I loved it.
Then I came back and I started a profession in, in, in uh portfolio management. So it was a private banking and did that for a couple of years. Uh Loved it actually. Um It learnt a lot of my, my languages. I uh had studied political science and economics. So it was sort of a really interesting place to start my career. I didn't, I didn't enjoy making very wealthy people wealthier.
Um So from that very early age, I started to question the purpose of what I was doing and whether I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing this. And uh and then, but I had enormous experience. We traveled around Europe. I, they were selling offices in Geneva which in Poland and in Lisbon. And so I would travel to these places and, you know, actually orchestrate quite a lot.
And then eventually I decided to do a master's so that I could sort of become a little bit clear about what I wanted to do. And long story short, uh a really um you know, lovely colleague of mine on the, on the course towards the end of our um studies had found this interesting opportunity to work at um Ashridge, which uh it was called Ridge at the time now it's called, yeah.
And there was, at the time there was a, an executive education college, a research wing and it had a, an amazing consultancy. It was quite a group of Mavericks really um the integrated things from occupational psychology, psych psychology and psychological approaches all the way through to some analytical approaches to, to help manage uh sort of performance, but to be very human in that process.
And I was very young, you know, mid twenties, went into that environment, very experienced consultants and professionals and many of which took me under their wing and I genuinely grew like accelerated through had really fascinating experiences and learned a huge amounts. And at that point, the center for executive coaching was born around that phase. And um and I was very lucky because I just happened to be there and played a part.
So that, that was my sort of professional uh roots and and then over the years I've worked in a number of smaller consultancies, boutiquey ones and then I've set up my own business in 2011. Um, and around that time I've, I've just worked as a, as a, as a consultant in, in on many projects and as an advisor to organizations in hr um sort of uh functional areas. But mostly it's my coaching if that's the, the, the bit that, that I absolutely loved.
Um But coming back to your specific question, which is what makes it human because a lot of that was real context. I um I guess that the, the, the, the second bit that, that, that sort of really highlights me is that six years ago, um in the midst of actually having built a brilliant business, I was so happy and settled and fulfilled in so many ways, uh because I do love my work.
Um And I had established that sense of freedom and space, although I now look back and I question whether it was really space because just some of my tendencies of really driving hard. Um And it was, it was, uh, you know, April 2017 around that period just before that my, my son started to experience some severe headaches, uh which got worse and suddenly out of nowhere.
Uh we learned that he had a brain tumor and as someone who, who associates my myself, and I probably still do very strongly with my job. With my profession, with my work. It was a huge derailment when it came to, you know, gosh, our lives just turned upside down and we had a period of a couple of years just getting him through treatment. And thankfully his survival, he, he was amazing and goodness me did.
We, we all learned so much from him and my daughter, his, his sister who was seven years old at the time. He was nine. And um yes, we went through that journey. So that probably has created a very important imprint in me. Um A very, it's, it's stimulated questions about how does trauma show up in the workplace actually. And then not long after we were starting to get bedded back into our lives, the pandemic hit and that created a whole new field for me to look into.
And it was, it was at the time that I joined an organization and I worked as a leadership coach and I and I set up a faculty of coaches that supported the business through a fairly significant historical joint venture and transformation and digital transformation during the pandemic. So all those things and I had this, as I say, a field to learn and play with and support people through.
Um So that question around how do our experiences, even though we don't remember, you know, for whatever reason, how do they play a part in how we interact with people in the workplace now, you know, in the, in the present has become a real sort of question for me, uh, to research, to work with my clients on and to work with myself on, um, and my Children and family. Huh? That's why we're going to call this episode. The Human Behind The Leader Sarine. Oh, lovely gosh.
Yes. Yes. Uh, cos I've just written with Lucia Baldelli, a book called The Human Behind the Coach. And one of the things that we're talking about in there is that, is that a, you know, academic education coach education gets you a certain distance, but it's our inner experience and journey. It's those difficult human things and that you've, you know, that that's a lot of stuff to have in a short time, isn't it?
And one of the things that we noticed with those are the things that develop the qualities that we need as coaches and, and having looked at your book, you know, those are the things that develop the qualities that we need as leaders. Right. Hm. And you wouldn't wish them on anyone but they happen. Oh, gosh. Yeah, that, that's a lovely way of putting it. You don't wish them. I remember being in a, in an event in, in Boston.
Actually, we were living there for, for a couple of months at the end of it was the third part of the treatment that my son's treatment and, um, his radiotherapy was, was there because they had a, a particular uh uh uh technology called proton beam, it's a heavier atom. So, because it was right in the middle of his brain, it would, it would sort of, well, it would be shot in, in a way that the weight of the atom stops the exit dose.
So it doesn't affect the structure as, as much as the surrounding structures in the brain. And of course, a nine year old, you know, they're right in the prime of, of development. So we were there and I'll never forget this one event they invited, the Americans are brilliant about this stuff. They invited a whole bunch of mothers for a morning. It was a Sunday morning and it was beautiful. It was in this lovely hotel and I remember not wanting to go. I was like such a recluse at that point.
So, you know, traumatized and scared and still, well, at that point, I was finding it, we'd heard that the, the, the tumor had, had actually disintegrated through the chemo treatment. So it was, it was great. But still I was quite, you know, raw and, and um, and my husband said, oh, I think you should go, you know, they invited all these mothers and you'll probably connect with other people who are in a similar place to you. And I did and it was amazing and they had a, uh a lady speak.
She was in her twenties and she'd had leukemia younger as a as a young girl. And she said, I bet none of you ever signed up to be a member of this club yet? Super grateful to be here with those around you. And I remember feeling, oh my gosh, I've never considered that, but yes, I was so I felt so privileged to be in that environment having been through what I'd been through with the women in that room.
And I think actually it's a really interesting parallel with coaching because the reason why I wrote the book was partly for my own catharsis if I'm completely honest. Um But the other part was I want others to just really be curious about the importance and actually the healing that comes with this kind of work, you know, whether it's in a coaching space, whether it's in by writing or by, by just taking that courage to having that courage to engage with it and stay with it.
Um And I feel that the way I wrote that book was using myself as an example and as a model as an instrument to, to show others that it's, it's, yeah, it's hard. It's not easy. Of course, it's not and some of that it might be uncomfortable to read or, or engage with. But actually, the what comes from being there is, is a privilege. It's a huge privilege. So yes, I wouldn't have said it any other way. I thought it was lovely the way you've described that and every leader has a story.
And as you're talking, I'm thinking, you know, isn't it interesting how often we choose to keep our backstory as the backstory or we feel under pressure not to be able to share that and that has consequences on our work. It does. And I think I, I, in fact, it's interesting listening to you because there's a part of us that does.
And I, you know, even when I, I've been obviously on a few podcasts recently as part of my, my, you know, bringing out the book and sharing in a more human way, you know, aspects of it and why I encourage others to read it.
Um And I feel that sometimes even when asked to tell a story, there is a process that goes on within us or it's certainly within me uh that the, the influences, the choices I make about the story I choose to either share or just expose and bring out and even live through the storytelling.
So there is a conscious, subconscious, unconscious uh interaction dynamic that's going on there and it, it, you know, sometimes it's laced with anxiety and, oh, and I'm not quite sure people are gonna think about this if I say it and, and you know, that, that that sort of process and then some of this is totally unconscious, you know, and I think for many people, certainly people I work with until I a tickle there,
curiosity to maybe have a go at just expressing something that reflects how they're feeling now that may have been rooted in a previous experience or previous situation. That connection, we don't have time for it. And unless someone creates a space and holds it with real, with lacking in judgment, but with real sort of acceptance, why on earth would most people do that so many things? Sorry, I'm bothering you.
No, no, no. Uh I can I just download and then we'll work out where we, where we need to go as you were talking um in that beautiful way where you're describing, inviting people to connect with the the the back story, the underneath story, the live story at work. So, so for me, that was a big a big ring. Ah Yeah, that's such an important thing, isn't it? Because if you don't talk about it in the work space, you're splitting yourself even though it's present in you all the time.
So that was one thing I noticed another thing was um I heard somebody describing that if you've experienced a trauma as a child, you need it and you go for therapy, you need to have therapy in the language that you spoke at that time in your life. OK? Because if you have therapy in the language that you are in now, it doesn't have the same impact because it doesn't enable you to access the part of you that experienced the trauma and language plays an important role in that bridge. OK.
Yes. And the other thing that tinged was there's a, an American woman called Nadia Bolz Weber and she talks about, about speaking from our scars, not our wounds. And I wonder as you were talking, I was wondering how much people who are able to talk about their story at work are able to talk about the scars and it's not appropriate to talk about the wounds with everybody or to leak everywhere.
But I wonder as, as you were talking, I think this loops back to my first insight about giving people an opportunity to talk about it in the workplace. Hm. What you're describing is an op opportunity is a safe space for people to acknowledge their wounds at work. Yes. First of all, I just want to acknowledge that difference between a wound and a scar and I, I do feel that's really important. Um I talk a lot about them both.
Uh And I talk about wounds as a definition for trauma, ah inspired by Doctor Gabor Ma who has reminded us that the root of the word trauma in Greek is wound. So, and I do find that very helpful. Uh I also am very conscious that scar carry scar tissue and there's layers of hardening and numbing. So I think I just love that distinction you've just shared with me and I'm gonna look, I'm gonna look her up because I'd be really interested to to, to read more. Um Now, yes, I agree.
And it really resonates that having the opportunity to speak from our understanding of and our connection with whether it's wound or scar. II, I think it's both actually is, is a skill that many of us need in order to interact authentically, but also in a way that that is in service of a shared set of intentions in the workplace. And, and this is part of the research I'm doing at the moment.
I'm, I'm really learning a lot about this because I find that some of the interactions and, and I'll use myself as an example just, just because I, I think it's only fair um to, to use myself and actually to bring it to life, you know, there is a pattern that I found and I learned about quite recently actually. Um it's, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely stems from my ambition and my need and my drive, my mother once told me never to rely on a man when I was really young.
And I actually, over the years I thought, oh, that's such a cool thing. My mum always told me never to rely on a man. That's why I'm a little feminist, you know, and, or, and not even, not even a classical feminist, but as in I work and, you know, our domestic, as well as our professional contributions have always been, you know, on par with one another, my husband and I um and I'm really proud of that.
However, I then became very thoughtful about how the, the, the power of that comment actually, and the responsability that I've carried as a result of that because when my son was better and we were having to come back. Actually, the role I needed to play was far more of a spiritual guide for my family, especially the kids and just an unconditional presence. And that really did jar against my need to earn. So that's one example that the, the second bit and this is more in the workplace.
Um And, and this has manifested throughout my, my career is I've had this need to not be inadequate to be, to be incredibly driven and to be perceived as wanting to go above and beyond the call of duty, whatever the context was. And I realized recently that there is potentially a connection between that set of uh behaviors and that, that obsessive.
Actually, it was really, I'm gonna be honest, I was, it has been really obsessive um tendencies and how my father and I interacted as I was growing up. And he sounds really trivial and embarrassing to admit, but he used to call me stupid a lot. It didn't, it doesn't whether and he's quite O CD. So whether I stacked the dish wrong in the sink or didn't put the, you know, I don't know, didn't put something away properly or whether I got my math problem wrong.
His instant reaction was, oh, you're so stupid and he, and genuinely, I, I'll remember this and I mean, even, even now if he calls me that, I, you're not gonna call me that now. Um And why can you tell me why the credit for them? But actually that has left this imprint and this real sense of I can't be stupid. I need, I need to prove. And that, and that has been a really unconscious driver for how I've been to become a professional, even as a parent and a wife, as a friend.
You know, I'm always having to compare my, I'm noticing myself, compare against several measures that sometimes like why, why am I even doing this? So, and that has been a very recent insight actually. So that process because I'm now aware of it. If I'm in an interaction with a colleague or a client and something comes up where I'm noticing myself, either expect too much or, or, uh you know, feel defensive that they haven't perceived what I've done is good enough uh or, or, or even worse yet.
I'm craving this recognition that what I've done is outstanding. I now can catch myself and I can have the conversation with the person in the moment. But I needed to do that work to truly understand the weight of these situations.
And you described when you described coming back with the Children and that, and in that, that the time after he'd had his treatment, I heard in that as you were speaking something about it was your presence, it was your being, that was the most important thing that you were doing. And, and a lot of what you've talked about in this conversation has been about doing.
Yes. And you were forced, I'm sensing the pandemic, the treatment forced you into, into being the mother rather than doing the mother or the professional, the working mum or whatever you like to call it. Yeah. 00, I really, I, that absolutely. And I think just, just to complete the circle here.
So I would say that in the last year after having written this book, which hopefully really uh sort of validates the, the role that the book or my, my work in that has played in my own changes and transformation.
Um I wouldn't call it transformation, but it was, it's, you know, significant changes is that, you know, ever since September this year I've, you know, I've now integrated yoga practice, but really embodied yoga practices into my, into my week, which to begin with was quite hard because that's didn't feel like I was doing the kind I'm doing um that I'm using and um and, and there's a lot of parasympathetic work.
So getting myself into that calm, you know, uh nervous system and actually, it has been incredibly rewarding and it's, I can feel the difference in myself and, and, you know, I contemplate a lot more when I walk the dogs and no, I'm not going to listen to a book or I'm not going to listen to a podcast. I'm actually going to think and just feel and be, and actually notice the nature around me and be with the dogs and actually connect with them and I would not have been able to do that a year ago.
Interesting. So it's all a journey. We haven't talked about your book. Well, we have, but we haven't actually named it. So Samy leader awakened by Sam Reen mcgregor. What's your hope for the book? Oh, lovely. Thank you for, for bringing it up. So, it's um as I said to you, it's, you know, the process of, of writing it has, has already, has already, you know, fulfilled a uh an unexpected hope, put it that way and in supporting myself and my work with myself.
But also it brings out a lot of stories. So really my hope is that, that a reader will pick it up. And some of the, the most rewarding comments have been, I've picked it up. I've read it been a bit sort of, oh my gosh. I wasn't expecting this because it's so real.
It's so I noticed there's a lot of work and research and to use your language academia that goes into helping us understand concepts, helping us and make, you know, make, make better use of our, our cogni cognitive pro progression and, and understanding of things, whether it's vulnerability or whether it's emotional intelligence, all of these. But I think we are better at talking about these concepts rather than engaging with them ourselves, even those in our academic, in an academic profession.
And so my hope was, I don't, I don't want to talk about it. I want to show it and demonstrate it and encourage you to do the same as a reader. So that's one thing. And I, and I, I, and, you know, obviously there's lots of illustrations and stories in there. There's an amazing um woman candy who uh did create some visceral images. I don't know how else to describe them and to prompt and provoke and catalyze thought.
So if you get a printed version or a, a Kindle version, it's, it's far easier because you can see it, the audible version, you can hear the story so that, you know, both together good combo. But um and I, I think it's uh uh somebody called it a compassionate companion. So, you know, and this is a perfect time of year because if you wake up on, on a, you know, the first of, of January, any time around this period, it's to really reflect back on, you know, what, what, where have I come from?
Where was I heading? Where am I heading now? What, what's going on for me now that can enable me to be more conscious to be more embodied and to be, you know, more choiceful and notice where my agency lies rather than just be pulled through life, sleepwalking without an inner compass. And that's what the book is for.
The book is to help wake, wake us up and to keep us connected with ourselves and to have that far more conscious compass that, that helps us to navigate life, more choiceful, being connected with our humanity leaders. Yes. So the book's called Leader Awakened By Sam Maren mcgregor, available at all good online bookstores. It is. Yes, Sine If people want to pick up a conversation with you, how do they make contact?
So, the best easiest way is, well, you could connect with me on linkedin uh and, and reach out and there is a website called Turmeric group.com or Leader awakened.co.uk. It accesses the same website but from slightly different pages. And uh yes, you can submit a contact form and reach out to me um to us. Fantastic sen that has been the perfect wrap to season three at the Coaching Inn. Honestly, that was fantastic. Thank you so much for coming and everyone.
Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week in season four. Bye bye, bye, bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at the Coaching Inn, you can subscribe on pod bean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time you've been listening to the Coaching Inn 3d coaching S virtual pub. For more information, check out 3D coaching.com.