You're at the Coaching Inn 3D Coaching's Virtual Pub where we enjoy conversations with people who are engaged in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's edition of the Coaching Inn. I'm Claire Pedrick. And today I'm in conversation with coach Sandhya who made contact on Linked In because she's been learning about not knowing. And I went come to The Coaching Inn podcast. We need to talk about it. So welcome. Thank you, Claire. It's so good to be here on this podcast.
And uh um yes, I think the way I connected with you was um when I read your post on linkedin and somehow that appealed to me instantly and I reached out to you, um because it was something that I was really grappling with. So, uh it's just, uh it's just so nice to be here with you on this podcast. And uh thank you for having me. Well, you're very welcome. So, where in the world are you?
Well, I'm in India, uh in a place called Pune, which is about um about three hours from Mumbai if you've heard of Mumbai. Ok, cool. So, yeah, and uh Pune is a very, uh is a place that's very high on culture. Uh, it's called the, uh, education hub of the west. And, um, uh, I've been here for the last 18 odd years since my son was born. Um, but otherwise I've been in Mumbai so been pretty much in the western side of India. Ok. So tell us about your coaching journey, Sandia.
Yeah. So I've been a coach for the last six odd years and, um, coaching actually happened to me, I think, uh, I'm an hr professional by, um, I've been an hr professional for the last 26 odd years. And, uh, II, I guess there was a point of time where I, I felt that, um, I needed something more enough of people's strategies and, uh, policies and business partnering and all of that.
Um, also a lot of the people that I worked with, uh, especially, um, the seniors, you know, the directors, my mentors, they, they kind of nudged me and pushed me to take up coaching in a more structured way, uh, because they, they probably felt that I had, uh, I had the ability to hold space for an individual in a conversation. Ah, yeah.
So, um, and I, I could see that, that, um, even in my role as an hr advisor, there were times that I could just go on and people would talk to me they would open up. Uh, and then someone suggested, hey, why don't you think of becoming a coach and, um, this was PRE COVID. Um, and I really didn't know what coaching was all about, you know.
Um, I mean, I had heard of coaches, of course, being in the, uh, hr industry but, um, uh, it so happened that I looked up a couple of organizations who kind of did coach training and, uh, I, I went on to become a PC C directly. Uh, I got my credential done about three years ago. And, uh, so I'm a level two IC F certified coach, uh which is the PC C and on my way towards mastery. So that's an interesting journey. Yeah. So tell us about your journey towards mastery.
Oh, well, uh uh it's been a, a churn in the very least because um till the PC C or till the level two, I guess it was more about, uh, you know, um how are you kind of holding space? And, uh, did you have clear agreements?
Are you looking at the context or the who and then suddenly whoa it goes to a different level where there's a lot of inner work, you know, um It's, and I, and I think if I were to summarize it, it, it was really about being comfortable with, with just going with the flow with, with not knowing what the next piece of the conversation would lead to. And uh Claire, to be honest, it was a huge struggle for me because I come from a very structured background.
I'm used to being in the black and white and knowing everything because I've been a consultant uh suddenly to switch from that to um being in the space of saying, hey, you know what, let's see what happens. Let's see what unravels and let's go with the flow was a struggle for me. Um I, I think the first three months of my journey into the professional mastery training was very difficult.
Uh There were times when I reached out to my mentor and said, you know, uh I don't know whether this is for me because I don't seem to be doing very well with, with how I'm feeling. And, uh, she just told me to just take it one day at a time and the more I, uh watched videos of, you know, master coaches doing sessions and I read about um, uh, uh books, you know, and, and I think, I think one of the books that really, really, um, sort of, uh, made me settle down was this book called Presence.
I'm sure you, you, you know about the books, the presence was one. Mastery was one. Then there was a shift in being by Leon. Um I think they, they kind of helped me to sort of be ok with, with not knowing and being comfortable with the unknown, you know, say, uh it was a huge shift for me but, and I've not gotten there, but I guess it's a journey and uh I'm taking it one day at a time. Claire. Yeah. And sometimes we can't do it.
Yeah. Oh, I've, I've had my days of complete frustration, you know, and I uh so I remember my mentor saying that don't give me a PC C call, what else go beyond, you know, give me more, see what more you can you have within you that you want to explore and, and the beauty of it is Claire that I realized that it was, it was about really, really who I am and who, who, who, who was I being in that conversation um which was beautiful nevertheless, but uh but a tough one.
Yeah, the inner journey and I think we, we started talking, didn't we when I put something out about the book? Um So you've done a lot of thinking and processing and being about not knowing. Oh Yeah. Oh yeah, way to put it here. That's a very nice way to put it. And it's, it's, it's such a contradiction of sorts. But yeah. So what are you learning? Yeah, I'm, I'm learning to go more with my heart rather than my head. I am a head person. II, I need to know logic.
I need to be um I need to have data, you know, for me to process my word. Um But I'm learning that it's OK to not really have data, it's OK to not. So I remember in my earlier days of PC C, I would, I would sit for a coaching call with, with, with all the competencies and all the markers and I would be so consumed about ticking each of each of them that I wouldn't be present in what was happening in the call.
Now that I think is a huge shift from where I was to who I am today is the fact that I don't need to go with, whether I've or I don't need to think whether I've done 3.2 or whether I've done 4.2 whatever, you know, I'm just present at the moment. I don't know what the client might say. And I'm ok with it. Mostly most of the times this morning I had an improv lesson with a improv teacher, 1 to 1.
And uh, improv is such a great way to learn about presents in coaching because you have to just go with it. Yeah. And she asked me to do this exercise with her and all I could think of were the rules. So she told me what the rules were and the whole time I'm going, I've got to give her the name of the last thing that I looked at. I've got to do this, then I've got to do this and I've got to do it at a certain pace and she's then gonna say this and then I've got to do that. It was exhausting.
Yeah. And we had to work quite hard to get over the, the, the sticking to the rules thing and into the free flow of what improv is about, which is about the free flow of what coaching is about, isn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think even when you reached out to me saying, um, uh, you know, let's, let's have a chat. Um, I think a part of me wanted to know what the conversation would be about and I really like the way you said, you know, don't worry, I don't need you to prepare.
And that was like, oh my God, that's such an alien feeling for me to not prepare. But, uh, believe you me, I've come to this conversation today without prep and saying, ok, let's see what unravels and let's see where the conversation goes. So, yeah. So how does that feel your first podcast and unprepared? Well, I have, I am nervous. I am, uh, really thinking. Ok, so, uh, what might Claire ask, what do I need to prepare?
But I think as I'm easing into the flow with you, um, uh, you know, the way that you're kind of your tone and all of that is just making me and, well, I, I think the, the topic supports itself, it supports the way I'm feeling, be ok with the unknown. So I, I'm just going, I'm just imbibing the whole topic and, um, it's not easy. But I think, yeah. Well, and we go where we go, don't we? Because we're doing this together.
Absolutely. So I'm not going to suddenly consult my encyclopedia of awful questions to ask people on a podcast. Cos I don't have that. Yeah, because each thing builds out of the last. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what happens in coaching. It does. Um I think my experience has also been clear that if you're present to what the, what the client is saying, feeling showing up and expressions, there's just so much more you can do by not knowing.
Yes. And, and from there on the journey of exploration gets that's just weird. Um So I've, I've had clients and of late where um oh you know, I just, in fact, the client asks me, so what do you have to say to this? I said, I don't know, I've seen just articulating or verbalizing, vocalizing the sentence. I don't know, just puts my breathing down. It makes me more relaxed. Oh Because, because then I'm being authentic to who I am. I really don't know your space or I don't know your world.
Um I'm here to explore with you. So let's see where this goes. Yes. So there's a confidence in saying, I don't know that I'm hearing in the way you describe that. Yes. Yes, Claire Confidence, authenticity. And um I think for me it's more about just being authentic and being true to, to uh on talent is supposed to know or coach is supposed to know or I'm here to give the answers.
It's about dropping that I uh that whole identity piece and I think magic happens then, yeah, when we stop thinking, it's about us adding value and the performance and that we're gonna be judged by those things. Yes. Yes. And it's not been easy for me, Claire, uh mind you because it's been years of conditioning to be a certain way. And uh uh I, I can't just leave all of that overnight and say, hey, you know what? It's a brand new day.
Let me, let me be this evolved, uh San who is, you know, no, definitely not. But uh what's helped me is just being part of the community of, of coaches and really, um learning from, uh from, from, from my peers, from my mentors, um looking at conversations and observing people and just being uh ok to, you know, imbibe. Um what, what works for me at that point of time again, there's no pressure on me to be a certain way.
So I did, I did my best coaching session a couple of weeks ago and I came out of it thinking you did good there. Wow. And I think the reason that I could say that was that I didn't do very much at all. I was very present. And at the beginning, the person said there's two really massive things and I think they're tangled up and I've thought about them a lot. Mm. And I said, tangled up and then I said, do you need to tell me what they are? And they said no. Wow.
Because they thought about them a lot. So, the thing was the tangled up bit, not the, this thing and the, that thing and actually so often that happens, but we get caught up, don't we in the, in the information about what's going on? And then we get lost in it, they get lost in it and then we're all lost in it. And then actually they come out of the session and they're no clearer than they were when they came in. Yeah. Yeah, this, this has happened.
It still happens when you get too involved in the content and I've seen the beauty when you, when you just take the content away and you, you're just there with the person and you're just exploring the whole. Yes, exactly. I mean, I can imagine how it would have been for you because um if I were to look back uh on my uh experience as a coach, there is really very, very few conversations that I really think I can see. You know. Wow, that's a good one there. Yeah. So, um yeah, yeah.
One of the things I said in simplifying coaching is that when we think we're adding value by adding value, we're not adding value. Well, that's, that's, that's a beautiful thing to say Claire, but there was a, a coach, um, a Ukrainian coach on linkedin the other day called Alex Martinov. And he said that he was, he was in a convers. So I'm sharing it cos he shared it on linkedin, but he was in conversation with people and he was talking about listening and not needing to understand.
And somebody said to him, well, why would you, if you don't need to understand, why would you listen? Yeah. And that's such an interesting question, isn't it? Because we get so caught up in the fact that I need to listen. So I understand that if I understand, then I can help you. It is. It is. Yes. Yes. And uh I think also Claire, uh in my sphere of work, which is a lot of work with the Corporates. Um It is a slightly different, slightly different ball game.
I'm not saying, uh it's vastly different but um in a, in a corporate um coaching engagement, it tends to be a little bit more structured and I, I guess it's, it's just the whole experience of being in the Corporates and really not, there's very little scope to really explore the who unless you've got 8, 10 sessions lined up, you know, if it's just a five or four session engagement, then that, that becomes a bit of a crunch.
But what I'm observing is that even with leaders, even with CX Os and directors and executives, uh they don't really want to know the content, right? They, they need, they, they, or they want or they desire to go deeper, ah, because they've, they know what's to be done. The content is pretty clear, it's about who are they being and who, who would they really want to be?
And when I've started working on that, when I started exploring or like you said, not saying much silence causes, I think those have been some of my best conversations Interesting and so interesting that you're describing that in the kind of executive coaching, corporate space where there's a lot of narrative that says, oh, but that's where they want advice.
Yeah. How can you cut through all the, how can you cut through that negative to really go and find um what's the real issue there or who, who do you really want to be or who are you being? And then magic happens because then you say, oh, well, uh uh you know, there's, there's, there's a bit of a value misalignment problem or I don't think I'm enjoying this, the space or this role or this organization. Uh So I think so what comes up even in a coaching? II, I don't know.
I, I in fact of late uh when this whole thing about being OK with, with not knowing or exploring the unknown, um It is just becoming very interesting because I don't know. And it's, it's every day or every conversation is a new learning for me as well. There's a lot of magic in not knowing. I think that's such a great statement. There's a lot of magic in luck knowing. Yeah. So you embarked on writing about this, didn't you?
I did um as, as part of my uh mentoring journey, uh We were kind of uh encouraged to write a white paper and present it to, to my cohort. So, um in fact, I, I started the, the whole presentation by saying I'm ok with not knowing what's going to flow in this conversation. Are you? And uh for me even saying that was, was so difficult or it was, it was so uh not difficult.
It was different because I'm used to having my, my slide notes and my handy notes and looking at all of that and I just went with the flow and um, so I spoke to a lot of people, I surveyed a lot of people, a lot of coaches on how, how, how do they work with this, with this unknown? What do they do and what happens to them when they deal with it? Uh The answers were pretty much what I feel too.
Um And, and they actually felt that um uh it, it takes them a little while or it takes them to get into the coaching journey a little more before they can, they can get comfortable with this whole unknown piece because there's so much pressure on having all the competencies sticked in your, uh you know, your, the whole credentialing process is very, very, uh different from the real coaching world.
Um But the, but, but I got some beautiful answers into, into what really uh happens to a coach, uh when they have to deal with the unknown. Um Yeah. So yes. Are you willing to share some? Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. So let me just pull that out for you. Just give me a minute, Claire. Um So this, this, this whole, I think I spoke to about 25 odd people and um it was, it was a mix of uh multiple choice and uh subjective questions.
Um And, and what really uh came up was so questions like um uh how, how do you define the grays in coaching? You know, is it a light gray, medium grade, dark gray? What is it for you? Most people said, well, it is, it is a, it is medium grade. Um hm In fact, there were some responses which said that not knowing impacts one's self worth. Um The responses seem to say that not knowing the fear is that I don't have control if I don't know. Um Then there was another question I say, uh which I asked.
Um So, um how often do you encounter situations when you know, when the path forward is really unclear? It's a bit ambiguous. How do you navigate that? Um um There were very few responses that I got, which spoke to me, but said that. Oh, it's OK. It's, it's a piece of cake. I know what to do and I'm kind of quite comfortable. Most of them need some bit of structure.
Um, and I think it comes from the fact that there is a performance pressure Claire at, even when you are in a coaching engagement, I think at some level, there is uh a seeking of validation that, you know, ok, you're a good coach or the fact that that conversation was effective, you know.
So, um uh so that those were some of the responses and um uh I think one of the things that also came up in the survey was the one of the top reasons or one of the top enablers for really helping the coach to be ok with the, with the unknown is, is that whole piece of building trust and rapport with the client, if that piece is done well and if those, if you kind of uh mean or if you contract well with the client saying, look, I may not know some things.
Um and I will be very authentic in saying that I don't know, let's let's explore. Um Those are the times when people came back to me and said that uh they've had some beautiful conversations and for both the coach and the client.
Um um So those were some of the suggestions that that, so let's say, by being honest and telling the client, I don't know let's explore together but having those contracting agreements in place uh prior and even during the engagement that look, we might come across areas where we may get stuck. Uh What, how best do you think we could navigate them? So, just having that conversation. Uh So that was some of the things that came out from the survey. Ok. Interesting.
As you're talking, I'm, I'm noticing in myself that a lot of the stuff around presents has come out of the of America. Yeah. And Europe. And you're in a very different context. Yes. Yes. Can you say more about that? Um It is very different, I think in the Asian context, specifically in India, there is a lot of cultural uh nuance that, that, that is, you know, kind of uh there when you coach one, the whole coaching um industry.
Uh I, I is, is just getting the level of maturity that maybe the US and uh industries are, we're still getting there. So organizations, individuals still look at coaching as um uh I mean, they, they, they see a huge impact. There's a lot of work being done on enabling uh organizations and individuals.
But culturally, uh I think we're, we're still, I mean, if I could talk about myself and some of my peers, uh there is a great um I would say that not knowing or not, not knowing what, what will happen. It's not a comforting sign for most people. Uh I don't know whether it has a cultural nuance, which is very different to where I come from, which is India.
Um I think it's also to do with the fact that coaching as an intervention, uh is, is getting a lot of prominence and attention uh in India, but it's still not as matured as maybe, you know, uh the US or the Europe. So it's ok for a coach to not know the answers where, whereas in India, possibly um even in some organizations or in some Corporates, um there is this expectation that the coach will tell me or knows how to, what I'm supposed to do because otherwise, why am I paying them?
Yes. Yes. But that's changing a fair bit because I was, I was part of uh uh a very interesting uh conference which is the coaching culture conference, which was done by uh this company called You Accelerate and I'm part of them. Um It was so encouraging to see the organizations that are really building that culture across. Um you know, there is leadership that's really walking the talk about coaching.
Um There is, there are forums where taboos and myths about coaching are addressed, people are made to feel comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a lot of good work and it's not just the big organizations, even the small and medium organizations are really, really understanding the value that uh coaching have. And I think that is one way of, of, of a support to the coaches also to navigate that whole unknown piece better.
Well, it's interesting, isn't it when you start seeing it moving across the system and not just coach is going, it's a really good thing to not know. Yeah. Yeah, for me. So I, I think, um, uh, and I, I also coach a lot for the creative, uh, industry so I work with a couple of advertising agencies. Uh, and then there is it. So when you, when you're uh when you coach uh the more creative agencies, um they, they do understand the fact that, you know, it's more fluid, it's more uh go with the flow.
Um If you look at the, it uh the software companies, that's a different ball game altogether because there is a lot of structure ingrained in them professionally. So even when they come to uh a coaching conversation, um they're very structured. OK, this is my goal. This is what I want to do, blah, blah, blah. Um This is what I will do as an action plan. Um So I think as a coach, what I've done is also really adapting my styles differently uh to, to the clients that I'm with a bit.
I mean, I, I wouldn't say that I completely adapt, but there is a bit of a different way of handling maybe a creative uh person than someone who is a very technical uh expert or a technical, you know, consulting. Yeah. So what's your hope for your coaching over the next few years. What's my hope did you want? Yes. Yeah. Ok. Here I, I think I want to be in a state where I am really enjoying the whole process of coaching.
There's no real, I mean, there's no pressure but I'm not really worried about the outcome. Um I want to be one in that moment and when I say that, I don't say it that just as a cliche, uh I really mean, um really being present to who I show up as in that conversation. I'm not even getting to the, to the, to the client, but how am I showing up? And uh what do I need to do to let go of the different identities that I have or the different hats that I wear?
Um So my, my hope is in the next 23 years, I definitely would, would want to be a master coach. Uh God willing and my uh uh assignments uh being completed and I'm, you know, doing all of that. Um Every day II, I really want to do one thing better than what I've done the previous day. Um That could be, in fact, what I've done, Claire is, I've, I've stopped making notes during a call. Hooray. Can you believe that?
So, so for me, that was like, oh my God, I don't need to take notes because I'm there, you know, um and that has shifted, it was a huge shift for me. Um So even at times when I need to make notes, I just maybe not a word or something that they are saying. Otherwise I would, I would have notes and I would have pages and pages and my mind would be more interested in writing notes. So uh I would like to be a version of myself that's, that's flowing.
I think when I think of myself, the word that comes to me is flowing because when you flow and when you're being human, then they can flow and they can be human. Absolutely. Claire, my big revelation last week is funny, isn't it? How we only get insights slowly, slowly? My big insight last week was why would somebody want to be in partnership with me if I can't be human? Oh, wow, that's so powerful. And then I looked and I thought, well, number one, that's an insight. How amazing is that?
And then I'm going, why didn't you think of that before? Yeah, I, I mean, as you're saying this, I'm just thinking to err is human. To not know is Yeah. And the more human we are. Yeah. The more human we enable the people that we are with to be. And that's what's so beautiful, I think. Oh Yeah. Wow. That is really something I'm going to mull over that. I think that's the tri calls for. Yeah. So if people want to, well, thank you. You started the conversation by making contact on linkedin.
Um If people want to make contact with you, how do they do that? All right. So uh I'm there on linkedin as Sandia Bhat and um I have uh my Instagram handle, which is People solutions dot consulting. Um My email ID is Sandia at people solutions dot consulting. Um Yeah, and there in all of these forums and with, with people great and I'll put those, everyone in the show notes. Um Sandia, thank you so much for coming. Um And you've been human and not knowing on your first podcast.
So that's a great joy. Thank you so much. And I, I feel, I feel that I've just flown with and you held that space for me, I think you were human. You are human and you, you, you were just so humane throughout this call. So thank you for, for holding that space to me and allowing me to flow Claire and thank you everyone for listening. Uh So you've been listening to The Coaching Inn, I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been talking to Sandhya Bhat. Bye bye, everyone.
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