You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching In. I'm Claire Pedrick and today I'm going to be talking to Emily Walker, who is a coach and all -round lovely person. And Emily and I were having a conversation about coaching and poetry and dissonance. And Emily said, we need to talk about Shakespeare. So Emily, welcome. Thank you so much, Claire.
It's lovely to be here. So tell us a bit about your coaching journey. So my coaching journey, interesting. I think, I mean, I started off with a wellbeing practice. And in fact, if I go right back, I started off with being a Montessori teacher. And the whole ethos, I love the ethos of Montessori teaching, which is basically to follow the individual and to help them towards or direct them towards becoming independent. So you're following them, you're being directed by them.
And the philosophy is all about bringing out the potential of the child, which is fantastic. And then running a wellbeing practice and then discovering that actually a lot of what I was doing was coaching. I trained to become a coach about, ooh, about 13 years ago now. And, yes, loved it ever since. It's been part, you know, a huge part of my wellbeing practice. I now train coaches as well, trained coaches for Anima since 2015 and I supervise coaches and mentor coaches and so on.
But my... personal practice with coaching is really mainly around wellbeing, around emotional resilience. And that's informed by various different theories and practices, as well as my own experience, life experience and so on. So yes, covering a wide variety of things, but chiefly around improving, helping people to feel better in themselves and to... sort of find that sort of centre to themselves where they can reach their full potential from. Yeah. Wow. Wow. And you've just moved.
Yes, we've just moved. So, yes, having lived in London my entire life, we've not only moved out, but moved counties down to Dorset, beautiful Dorset, just outside Bridgeport to a small holding that's a campsite at the moment, which we're going to carry on running as a campsite. But in time with probably not much time to be honest, we'll also be a retreat center, wellbeing space. My husband is a sound therapist as well as a carpenter, very useful.
And so we'll be doing a combination of different things. And I also practice Reiki and the massage and so on, run workshops and courses in wellbeing and so on. So yes, lots, lots, lots, lots to come. Yes, very exciting. Sounds amazing. I just want to kind of highlight what you said about the Montessori teaching. I was talking on Friday to a lady who homeschools and she's going to come on to the she's going to come to the coaching in and talk about homeschooling and the connection with coaching.
Yes, yes. It's a very interesting one. Yeah. As someone who didn't do very well at orthodox mainstream education because it's not designed around the individual. It's very much part of the sort of industrial process. Yeah, Montessori is a very, very interesting way. And I think homeschooling often works in a very similar way. I've got a few friends who are homeschooled. And I think it's a really interesting way to work. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So Shakespeare. Shakespeare.
Yes. I can't even quite remember how he got onto that conversation. But how was it? There was something, I think we were talking about something around dissonance and how it actually shows up quite a lot in Shakespeare. I was brought up, my parents, my dad particularly is very, very into Shakespeare, I was brought up just living and breathing Shakespeare. learning Shakespeare on the way to school, being taught many, many poems and also speeches from Shakespeare.
So I have a great love of Shakespeare, definitely. And it's, I'm always fascinated, there's always so much to learn about how he writes and how he works. And it's interesting how there is a bit of a, there's definitely an overlap in what we listen for in coaching and what we hear. in how Shakespeare portrays different characters, which is really, really interesting. And in a number of different ways, I think, and we spoke a little bit about dissonance.
And Shakespeare in the way that he writes most of his, most of his work is in iambic pentameter, which is the 10, it's a very sedentary, no, very kind of walking pace. to the words. So you've got this, you know, each phrase is 10 syllables. And when he wants to highlight something, he changes the pace. not dissimilar to coaching, where we listen and we change the pace. We do it sometimes consciously and sometimes the client does it unconsciously. Yeah, yeah.
And so there's something about the pace. Is there something about words? Does he, does he dissonate? I know that's a word because I looked it up in the dictionary. Does he dissonate words? Didn't know dissonate was a word. That's, yeah, very nice. Yes, he does. And I think, yes, definitely. He uses, he dissonates with the vowels he uses. So sometimes you hear the similar vowels. It's very, you hear the assonance where they use, he uses similar vowels.
in a phrase, and then other times he will shift that to create dissonance. So you really, there's a jarringness to reflect possibly, you know, quite often, either what's happening, or what the character is, is talking about, and it helps to bring your attention to it. And there's also, there's dissonance in, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance in Shakespeare as well.
I mean, we could talk about this for hours, but sort of the difference, if you like, between what characters say and what they do. There's a huge amount of that. So, like Hamlet, Claudius in Hamlet, the king, Hamlet's uncle, we know as an audience that he's committed a crime. And he is at one point praying to heaven and he says, my words fly up, my thoughts remain below. Words without thoughts never to heaven go. And it's his recognition that there's a real dissonance.
He's being really explicit about it. There's a real dissonance between his words and his thoughts. And it's very, very clear. That's a very explicit example, I'd say. But there's a lot of dissonance in how characters are clearly thinking on stage and how they act. There's also the whole aspect of deception and masking and people playing other people and taking on different names, different genders and so on. And some of those create a lot of dissonance within the storyline.
So yes, yes, it's an awful lot of dissonance and assonance in Shakespeare. Yeah. So you're describing a lot of this as a learner of speeches. Yeah, very definitely. Yes. Yes. And a listener of speeches of eyes to go to a lot of Shakespeare plays. Yes. I'm just wondering what's the difference in terms of dissonance when you're in the audience from when you're the learner of the speech?
I think again, it's an interesting one, because obviously when Shakespeare wrote these, he was writing them for his players to perform in the space. So he knew exactly how they should be spoken as well. So he would undoubtedly be directing those plays and, you know, telling the players not only what to say, but how to say it. Whereas these days, obviously, we don't have his direction. So we can kind of slightly make it up.
And by nature, some of the phrases, you know, the phrases and the words he uses and so on, give us an indication of how how to say those things, but sometimes it's questionable. So you can kind of make a choice. There was a really, really lovely sketch, and I'm slightly going off here, but there was a really lovely sketch. I don't know if you're aware of it, but there's Tim Minchin and a whole plethora of really famous Shakespearean actors.
And I think our now current king finished off the sketch as well, where each of those actors... did the first line of to be or not to be, that is the question. And they all said it in slightly different ways. And it gave slightly different meaning each time they said it. They put the emphasis on a different word and you heard a different thing from it. So yes, I think there's a real art to how you, you know, the words definitely give direction to how you say it.
But there's also something that you can input as a speaker as well. But as audience, you know, Shakespeare is never meant to be read in a classroom. It was only meant to be heard and listened to in and on the stage. So, yes, it's all meant for the audience's ear and it creates all sorts of interesting storylines within one's own head as you're listening to it as well. When I was in school doing O -level. GCSE level English literature.
We had to do Twelfth Night and the teacher encouraged us to learn it. And it's really interesting because when I hear it now, what country friends is this? This is Illyria. What must I do in Illyria? My brother, he is in Elysium. By chance he is not drowned. What? Thank you, Saylor. Nobody think I've got good memory. What was your name? There's something, isn't there, about the beauty of the flow of the words.
And I wonder whether sometimes in coaching we can get caught up in the beauty of the flow of the words and lose the dissonance and forget about it. Because I could say that and it could sound beautiful, but you might not actually be listening because you'd be listening to the sound and not to the meaning. Yes, yes, absolutely. So I think you're right.
Sometimes we can get sort of carried away and it's... it's almost those moments where we get almost carried away with the story that the client is saying, because they may be saying it in a beautiful way. And it's, it's lovely to listen to. And we, we need at that point, to bring in a bit of dissonance to bring back awareness, really. Yeah, because if we join in the music, they'll just keep singing, they'll just keep singing the song. Can we just be a bit compassionate?
Emily and I, because I'm sure we're going to be mixing our metaphors here. yes. I was listening to a recording the other day. And, you know, of course, the dissonance and, and resonance or resonance thing is has really come up in the in the new book. And, and it's through listening. And I was listening to a recording, it was a really interesting recording, because the coach was saying, Yes, yes, yes. And the and the thinker has an insight. She said a word. and the, the, the coach went, yes.
And I said, you both missed that, didn't you? Because she just carried on talking and like five minutes later, she realized what the thing was, but she'd said what the thing was five minutes before, but because the coach had been resonant or assonant kept the same sound, they both completely missed it. So tone is such a beautiful thing. And of course Shakespeare had the option to. Try it out, write it down, try it in a different way.
And you know, in coaching, we've just got to go with in the moment. Yes. Yes. And whatever it is comes out, comes out. Yeah. Yes, indeed. And yeah, I mean, I do say that it's really interesting because having learnt like yourself, having learnt Shakespeare sonnets and speeches and so on, you can play them over. I mean, I have the number of times I have gone through the speech to be or not to be in my head.
just saying it in different ways, trying out different tones and different ways of putting emphasis on words and so on. Yeah, you can really play with that and get it right. But in the moment as a coach, you only have that moment. So it really requires us to be so on the ball and in that moment, completely aware of what's happening in the space. in order to be able to catch those moments and bring dissonance in as and when necessary.
And also, I would imagine also bringing assonance or resonance when necessary too. So those lovely moments where we maybe challenge or bring some dissonance in and then bring it back to a good note, bring back rapport and so on. Yeah. Yeah, or start with rapport and then make it dissonant. So that's really good, isn't it, in interrupting. So if you interrupt somebody, if you interrupt in a dissonant way, they just think you're weird.
Whereas if they're going da -di -da -di -da -di -da -di -da -di -da -di -da in their narrative and you go da -di -da -di -da. So. that it becomes less surprising. And also they hear it because they hear that you match their music and then you changed it. So that's, that's a really, really interesting one. Yes. And interesting as you're saying that as well, sometimes if you reflect back the da dee da, but, but only maybe half the line and then you have a space, you leave it hanging.
And you leave this, this lovely moment of silence, maybe for, you know, that in itself, silence can be dissonant. Yes. And that's a fun thing to play with in coaching. Yeah, and we have to not finish our speeches. Yeah. Or our sonnets or our lines, don't we? We have to just drop. Yes. Yeah. Interesting. I'm just sitting here wondering, how could you use Shakespeare in coach training? Yes, interesting.
Because I'm sure you could in our improv training, the improv teacher Stuart Reid, who works with us, he does the to be or not to be thing. He gets them to he gets everybody to say a line in their own way. And it all sounds very different. Yes, that's quite an innovative way of. Yes, seeing what the impact is of the sound that we make. Yeah, yes, definitely. Yeah. And another thing that you can't write to Shakespeare again, every, every scene.
Pretty much every scene in Shakespeare finishes with a rhyming couplet. And this is to bring, you know, it helps the audience to know, and that it's all coming to a close. You know, trying to think of an example off the top of my head. I can't think of one at the top of my head, but he always, if you look at any Shakespeare play, if you look at the end of a scene, he will always use a rhyming couplet to bring everything to a close.
And that's a message to the audience to go, okay, we're on to the next thing. And it's like what we do in coaching, in bringing a coaching session to a close and just asking those questions towards the end. to bring the whole thing to a close time management and all the rest of it and checking in with the client and partnering with the client to finish the session. Yeah, very much reminds me of that sort of rhyming couplet. It's an indicator. Yeah, because that's the landing, isn't it?
It's the rather than the just abruptly ending. Yes. we've run out of time. And there are very few moments in Shakespeare where the scene does abruptly end or he uses rhyming couplet and then the character says one half line more, which kind of leaves everyone going, because he's using his creating distance to actually leave you slightly hanging, which obviously we wouldn't do in coaching, but it's an interesting, I wonder if he can bring rhyming couplets into the end of the landing.
That would be really interesting, wouldn't it? We've got a bit of a thing in our house about crime dramas. Yeah. When we're watching a crime drama, you know when you get to the end and you think it's going to end and then it doesn't and then it does. And then we always go, doof, doof, doof. Yeah. Wait for next week's thrilling installment. But actually, there needs to be an ending to every session, doesn't there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's such an interesting thing. Yeah, because that's so.
Yeah, I really like that. I'm going to have to take the dog for a walk with that. Think of some rhyming couplets to finish your coaching sessions with. But it's a, yeah, it's lovely. So it really does bring it to a close in a very neat way.
And I think there is something about how we, obviously we don't need to do rhyming couplets at the end of a session, but using a phrase at the end of a session, using a phrase that is, dare I say it, comfortable or conclusive in a nice way, that is, that just ends the session nicely. Yes, it's the words. But it's also the tone of voice. It's also the way that you say the whole phrase brings it to a close. So yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, because I like to say, have we finished?
Yeah. Because I hear often the end is a bit of a panic. Yes. Yes, me too. We can't possibly do credit to your very big thing that's just come up in the last 30 seconds in this very short time. So you must come back. So next week's thrilling installment. will be. Whereas actually, have we done enough? Have we finished? There's a calming tone that we can use to end in the same way that we have a calming tone at the beginning rather than that breathless, over the line thing.
Yes, indeed. Yes, I mean, I think I usually finish with, so is there anything more before we bring this to a close? Is there anything more we need to do to bring this session to a close? Yeah. So I mean, that's a fairly familiar phrase that I use. But I like you say, I mean, I've heard coaches and this recording, some of the coaches say some of the things like, okay, so should we finish it there? Okay. And yes, there's a bit of a panic and urgency.
And you just said, is there anything more we need to do to bring this to a close, which is not the same? Is there anything else you want to talk about? No, it's completely different. Yeah. Yeah. Because one of them is in the music of the ending. Hmm. And the other one is in the urgency of the. I don't know. What else? Yes. Got to give value. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you were thinking about Shakespeare, Emily, what else were you thinking? interesting.
I mean, gosh, quite a few things came up and another one is. the sort of metaphors, the bigger metaphors that Shakespeare uses. So he uses things like, for example, the, for example, in As You Like It with the forest and the city and the, there is a real dissonance between the two and the forest represents the sort of coming home and this is all about nature and being aligned and being authentic to yourself. He also uses it in other plays like Midsummer Night's Dream.
very sure there's certain others. But this whole distance between places, between locations. So the city is all about deception and politics and you know, all that intrigue. And that often shows up in a lot of Shakespeare. But then the forest is this other place of truth and nature and authenticity and so on. But also fun. There's often fun that happens in forest playfulness. magic. And again, it made me think of what metaphors show up for us in coaching.
So firstly, how metaphors show up for us in coaching and actually, what are they possibly representative of? And also, how does deception, how do masks show up in coaching, both for ourselves as coaches, but also for the clients too? How do they show up in the space where? Maybe we are not necessarily fully honest with ourselves or maybe not fully honest with the client and vice versa. The client may be not fully honest with themselves or fully honest with us.
Again, you know, as coaches, we only have a seat this much of what the client, you know, tiny, tiny amount of what the client wants us to show, wants to show us and, you know, of their entire territory, if you like. So, yeah, there's definitely sort of crossovers in the sort of story. element and the metaphors that Shakespeare uses and what shows up in coaching sessions. Yeah, and so for Shakespeare, the forest was the faithful place and the city was the place of deception.
But of course, for every person, the metaphors, if they if they use and if they feel they can use and if they understand metaphor, which not everybody does, can be different, but it's noticing the connection between them, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yes. And I wonder also if there's something in some metaphors that's more universal than others.
No, like if I said, I had such a roller coaster of a day, you know, roller coaster means something potentially quite different to me than it might do to you. But I wonder if there's something more universal about other metaphors. It's an interesting one. And that's just literally just a question of which metaphors are more universal and which are more specific. You're going to do a PhD? No! No! I mean, in my head maybe, but writing? That's such an interesting question, isn't it?
Yeah. So if you wanted to encourage our listeners to push on with this a bit, what would you be saying? interesting. I'd go and see lots of Shakespeare plays. Just, and it's a really interesting one. I know... I've been brought up with Shakespeare. I also know a lot of people who haven't been brought up with Shakespeare, shockingly. No, but it's true. And a lot of people find Shakespeare very difficult. I really get that.
But I would say the best way to go to Shakespeare is to not try and analyze it, but just to let it wash over you. And then things start to gradually sink in as you reflect on it and as you appreciate it. The worst thing you can do, I think, for Shakespeare is analyze everything about it and try and understand every word. It's about seeing what lands with you in the moment and sits with you. And again, you know, that's very, that resonates very much with coaching too.
I was waiting to see whether you noticed what you just said. dear. But yeah, I think for me, sadly, and I think this is one of the reasons why Shakespeare is so, so popular and so famous is because what he does with words, with characters, with story, with metaphor, with scenes and all rest of it, reflects so much of who we are as humans in a very poetic, beautiful way.
Yeah. Both the... the interesting, nasty, more negative elements potentially, and also the happy and the joyful and the beautiful. And we don't need to analyse a coaching session. We're not there to do a English comprehension review of it. We're there to notice up with the mood and the dissonance and the resonance and the flow of what somebody's saying and offering them back that is enough to help them to get new insights and to feel heard.
Yes. And that's also, you know, that brings to mind for me that work on coaching maturity that I think it was Clutterbuck. Yes. Did with someone else. It's gone out of my head now. But yes, people. Yeah, a bunch of people. And yeah, the the steps of of coaching maturity where, you know, when you start off and you're kind of doing it and you're using all the tools and techniques and you're trying to get it right, there's a lot of.
there can be a lot of analysis and a bit of clunkiness to that work. But as you mature and take those steps towards coach and maturity, which is an ongoing journey, right, it's never going to finish. It's not like you get to that destination and it's all done.
But that ongoing journey as you move on that journey, you move more into a space of flow, you move more into a space of intuitive, intuitive practice of picking up the nuances, picking up the, the, the, the tone, the words, the subtle intrepid body language and so on. Yeah, without analysing the words. Well, Emily, thank you for coming to The Coaching Inn and stimulating our thinking about dissonance, resonance and Shakespeare.
For those of you who hate Shakespeare, next week's episode is about something altogether else. But for those of you who love Shakespeare, we'd love to hear what you think. and we'd love for you to build on the conversation. So if you're interested in building on the conversation, yeah, share your thoughts and insights. And Emily, how do people get in touch with you? So I have a website, www .emilywellbeing .co .uk. So do get in touch.
I'm also on Instagram as Emily Wellbeing and also on LinkedIn as Emily Walker, Emotional Resilience Coach. So there we go. Brilliant. Thank you, Emily. I'll put all of those in the show notes. So thank you for coming to The Coaching In. Pleasure. Real pleasure. Thank you so much, Claire. It's been an absolute treat. And everyone, thank you very much for listening and we'll see you next week at The Coaching In. Bye bye.
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