You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Dear listeners, welcome back to this episode of In the Arena. If you're a regular listener, you'll know by now we've been exploring the intersection between coaching and leadership. And that this series is a sort of special mini series that's been supported by Claire Pedrick and the 3D Coaching Team and hosted by me, Kirsty Elderton.
I've been coaching for over 10 years and consulting into organizations for much longer. And having worked with over 200 organizations, both in the UK and Australia, it's always fascinating to me where coaching pops up. So whether you're a coach or a leader looking to integrate coaching skills or something else entirely, I'm hopeful there's gonna be something in this conversation for you.
And if you've listened to other episodes of In the Arena, you'll know that we've been taking a leadership quality that sits at the intersection of coaching and speaking with someone who lives, breathes, magnifies that quality to explore it more deeply and bring some fresh perspectives. And today is no different.
The quality we're exploring is creativity and I'm delighted to have Harriet McDougall with us to share some of lived experience, the highs and lows, if you like, of how to be more creative in your role. Harriet, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background and why creativity is so important to the work that you do. Thanks for having me, Kersti. It's really exciting to be here. Where to start? So I'm a strategic and service designer.
I've been doing this role for around the last 10 years or so, I suppose. Consultancy isn't really my bread and butter. I think I've come from kind of an art background, actually. So I studied design at university and have been a practicing illustrator and kind of graphic designer and things like that in the past.
But I think over the years, what I found is that my practice, the way that I work, the way that I approach work, even though I'm not necessarily in a highly kind of artistic field at the moment, it's really benefited from my educational background in, I don't know, bringing ways of visualizing, thinking, exploring, being playful about the way that you approach problem solving.
And yeah, I just think that I've been able to, I suppose, function in a very authentic way throughout my career because I've kind of allowed that artistic side to be a part of how I work. Yeah. Thank you.
And I'm so glad that you mentioned that artistic side, Harriet, because I'm just going to say straight off the bat, I reckon you've been a little bit humble because I know how bowled over people have been by some of the beautiful things you can do with pen and paper, but I also was just sort of reflecting when you were talking there that one
of the things I've loved observing the way you work and the way you think about work is that often you come at things from just a slightly different angle and it's just the slight difference or the small difference. that seems to make a big difference for the people that you work with. It just creates a slightly different perspective or you mentioned the word playful.
And it's that kind of tiny bit of different perspective, I think, that brings a massive difference into the type of work that you do and the way people experience your work. Is that your sense as well? well, that's a lovely compliment. Thanks. I don't know, I think that like that playful aspect is absolutely critical when it comes to being able to be creative in any situation.
I always think that there's a space for attacking any situation with that kind of slightly, I suppose, like irreverent or kind of, I don't know, I think there's something to be said for not taking everything too seriously.
which is much easier said than done, of course, like situations are stressful, but I think there's something quite amazing about the ability to bring some humor and some play into a problem solving scenario that can actually, like you said, it's not just about like what you bring to the table specifically, it's about how you're able to spark something in others.
And I found that sometimes just being a little bit silly in a situation, kind of like demonstrating that for other people kind of gives them a little bit of space to participate in a more playful or silly way. And I don't know. I mean, I think that the difference between like a workspace that's creative and one that isn't is that ability to bring the playful element ultimately. Hmm. One of the reasons that I really love coaching is because I reckon at its heart, it's a sort of creative process.
And what you're what you're sort of alluding to there, Harriet really goes to the heart of coaching, I think, because, you know, we talk about creating a coaching container that's safe for people to explore and create new meaning, generate new perspectives, come to new insights. And often, I think there can be a tendency to do things the way you always do them. Talk this thing out, or I'm gonna write a list, or I'm gonna plan a thing.
know, there's that whole thing about problems can't be solved in the frame that they were created. And so I, my sense is that there's opportunity to be much more creative in the coaching space as well as other kind of work spaces. But I'm really interested, like when you talk about being creative with people, I noticed one of two things happen. They either go, yay, and they're super excited about it, or they go. No, I'm not. Like, there's not much in the middle.
I know you've worked with, you know, hundreds of organisations, hundreds of people, lots of different sectors, lots of different contexts. What's your sense of like, whether anyone, everyone can be creative? So, I mean, obviously, I think that everyone is inherently creative and has the capacity for creativity. But I also realized that saying that is like saying anyone can draw, which I also believe, but I tend to get like the deep eye roll when I say something along those lines.
Because I think people are, it's been so drummed out of them, I think that capacity for creativity, know, it's sort of going back to that playful thing, you know. all children are creative and they play and they are creative for the sake of being creative rather than for the output. And somewhere along the line at school, I think we all have a teacher at some point that goes, you're a creative kid or you're not a creative kid, you know? And I think that's something that we really internalize.
The amount of people that I speak to who just say, I'm not a creative person, especially people who've maybe moved into the design field, you know, from business or, you know, from management, wherever they've come from, they'll tend to not think of themselves as designers, even though they're some of the most creative people that I've met because of this internalized, you know, message that if I can't paint, I'm not a creative person.
But actually it's not like being able to think creatively is not necessarily just about a medium that you express yourself in. I think it's about actually kind of coming at things from different perspectives and just trying to kind of maybe be a little bit more like you were saying with the coaching process, like giving yourself the time and space to be exploratory.
Cause I think we've got a tendency to try and rush to outputs and of course in a work environment, know, often have KPIs, we've got deadlines, we've got clients who have expectations and all of that stuff is not particularly conducive to creativity always, you know, we're under a lot of stress. There's nothing worse than fear, whether that's anxiety or stressful environment to.
prevent you from being able to sit in that kind of creative, call it an open mindset, where you're expansive and you're kind of opening up possibilities. It's really tough to do that when you're under pressure. And so I think coming back to that kind of the coaching aspect of that, of course, when you're feeling anxious about making a decision about what the rest of your life is gonna look like. it can be really difficult to sit in that ambiguity, I suppose.
guess like something that I found to be really important is just kind of finding ways to create that space internally because psychological safety is incredibly important in a work environment for, you know, creating teams that have a culture of creativity and playfulness. But it's also about making your own self psychologically say, if you know, because I think again, going back to that, you know, that sense of, I can't be creative.
A lot of that comes back to the inner critic that someone starts to do something that they feel is creative, like they're writing a song or a poem or, you know, just making it going to life drawing class or whatever it is that you're trying to do.
kind of express yourself creatively that there's that little voice that sneaks in and says you're crap at this this is no good sorry can i swear on this podcast i i reckon you're safe with crap other c words maybe not okay okay yeah but i think i think i think it's also about like giving yourself a bit of a bit of leeway and allowing yourself to maybe not be quote unquote, I'm doing air quotes, good at something straight away.
Because often, you know, when people start trying to do something creative, again, air quotes, they'll kind of stop before they've kind of given it the time that it maybe could have benefited from because there's this feeling of, it's no good, I'm never going to be any good at this. I think, I think actually, if you can find that of internal kindness and you can focus on the journey rather than the outcome then I think that's probably a really important place to start.
I love this reference to psychological safety Harriet and as someone that's led teams, people, individuals through kind of a creative process kind of taking an organization from A to B and B being a much better place. What have you been learning about how you create that safe space with individuals, groups, teams, so that they kind of step in, even if it's a baby step, to taking that kind of playful, expansive mindset that you were describing? Yeah, yeah, I love that question.
So I think there is such a thing as the right amount of structure. It sort of sounds counterintuitive in some ways. I think we have a tendency to think about creativity as being this kind of blue sky, blank canvas kind of- Chaos. Yeah, exactly, chaos. And there's nothing more petrifying to anyone like than an empty page, right? You know, that is- gosh, I am starting from absolutely nothing.
when it comes to kind of guiding people through a creative process and kind of making it feel safe to step in, like you were saying, just to put a toe in the water, I think it's about creating guidelines that are conducive to, you know, coming up with different ways of thinking or exploring a problem space, but not so free as it feels like a bottomless pit of terrifying unknown possibilities.
I don't know, I think what that does is I think people can feel very exposed in the creative process, especially when, you know, in my role as a service designer, we, it's all about bringing together lots of different people in the same space to tackle problems. But of course, what that also does is bring your manager and the people who report to you and people from the other departments who you want to think are competent.
And if you're there brainstorming, all of that of, I suppose, hierarchy and the norms of day-to-day life bleed into the session. So if you can give a container that I know, and constraints almost. It's like, we want you to explore this problem space, but you can't do this, this or this. You know, like you have to do it on no budget and we want you to think about this as though you are, I don't know, NASA or whatever, very cheesy examples.
But if you just kind of give people enough of a steer about how, where to start almost, and the things that they can't do in the situation, then it can actually be. like a really, I don't know, it can just kind of provide the guardrails if you like, you know, like when you're bowling.
I'm going to have a go at bowling because I'm confident that regardless of what happens, I've got these guardrails, my ball will reach the end and I won't be embarrassed in front of everybody when I don't hit anything, because that's usually me. But yeah, I think just enough of a guardrail to help you feel like you understand what you're doing. I think like constraints can be such a helpful thing.
You know Monty Python, the quest for the Holy Grail, do you know how they use coconut shells in it to be like the horse sounds? So that's like a hilarious thing and bizarre. And that came from the fact that they'd completely run out of budget. in the movie to actually pay for horses. like, I don't know, I just think it's like a, I think it's a really nice thing to start thinking about the things which aren't possible as, I don't know, useful, like grist for the mill, if that makes sense.
Yeah. And there's something, isn't there in those constraints and you know, I'm thinking in a, in a coaching context, but also in all sorts of contexts, you know, there's a time constraint, there's a budget constraint, there's a, and there's something about kind of naming them and what I'm hearing Harriet, finding a way of flipping them to go, how do we make this work for us?
Like, how do we create a healthy bit of tension with those constraints to create something new that we might not have thought of before? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. And I think it's just also, like sometimes providing frameworks that show a way forward as well, because it's like you were saying, creativity can feel really chaotic. And that's, I don't know, that's terrifying, like for everyone, including people who think of themselves creative.
think that, I think if you can kind of provide steps, or like a route through the chaos and hold people in that space and show that, at the moment, I mean, in design, know all about this. We talk about divergent and convergent phases of a process. And I think there is something about the kind of, okay, this is the time when we're gonna be divergent. We're gonna be an open. expansive exploratory mode in this part of the process.
because you can see closed mode thinking as in like, you know, we're consolidating, we're defining, we're making decisions now. Because you need one without the other. You can't just be expansive forever. You have to kind of use both open and closed thinking.
But if you can see that closed mode, kind of coming down the track, kind of makes you feel a bit more comfortable, I think, in kind of sitting in the chaos for a bit longer because you know, okay, this is the time for chaos and chaos is okay. And I think, yeah, just being, helping people to kind of manage the anxiety that comes with, that comes with that expansiveness and, you know, possibility. is a really important part of, yeah, again, the psychological safety of that space.
Yeah, and you're making me think Harriet, that one of the things that I picked up with Claire actually on my very first coaching training I did with her, which was, gosh, must be over 10 years ago. And I've sort of taken this role forward in life. And it's one of the, one of the reasons I think I enjoy facilitation and working with teams and groups and individuals so much is this kind of rule of thumb of show you're working out, which is, it sort of lifts the curtain.
It gives the people a sneak, you know, the sneaky peek behind the curtain of what we're doing here and how we're doing it and what's coming down the track. And what I'm thinking about when I was hearing you talk there about kind of showing the process, at some point we are gonna, we're gonna diverge here. There's something that happens with power in that, that is sharing power with the people in the group as opposed to holding it.
You're laying some breadcrumbs for folks to see, follow, appreciate, question, challenge, and participate in a different way rather than holding the cards. Am I hearing that right? Yeah, well, I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's lovely way of framing it because I don't know, ultimately I think in the type of work that I do and that you do, when we're facilitating people through a creative process, again, it's about the outcome, of course it is, but it's not only about the outcome.
And I think that building creative confidence and the capability to think and approach problems in a different way is a really crucial part of what we do. And I think, you know, when we think about disciplines like co-design, for example, which is all about bringing together people from every part of a system that might be being redesigned and giving them, you know, the power to say how they want that system to be redesigned.
Like that is all about doing everything you can to neutralize that sense of power that might traditionally exist in a system to make it feel safe for everybody to participate as equals. And I think that going through the process and it not being kind of like as the designer who's facilitating it, you're the only person that has the ability to be creative. You're the only person who can get us through this process. It's actually not true at all.
It's about almost like disseminating the tools and just trying to like, I always just feel like I'm trying to I don't know, like we've worked together enough times, but again, like trying to like embody that silliness and, you know, being, bringing me some humility to the situation and demonstrating how, trying to, trying to just show that like my guard's down. So your guard can be down as well. And you hope that, vicariously through going through that process that, you know, people can.
some of that away with them into their work and culture afterwards. I mean, that's, me, that's like the best project. when that happens, yeah. There's something just really human about that as well, isn't there? I just, as you were talking, Harriet, I was, I've been doing some coaching, mentoring work with Claire and we were doing a demonstration and Claire was drinking a cup of tea and someone on the call just said, I can drink tea when I coach.
And like this moment of like, well, we're all human. Like, yeah, okay, to be silly. Okay, to drink tea or whatever it is to kind of, you know, make that. Yeah, to bring your whole selves into the space and be comfortable. But I was you used a word earlier that I just want to come back to and it was exposed. Because I reckon there's a great vulnerability isn't there about putting your art or whatever out there into the world.
there's this, I think it was Seth Godden and there's probably other people who've said similar, but it's something like, you know, if it doesn't make you feel a bit sick when you're going to press publish or press send or press share or whatever the thing is, you're probably not doing it right, or there's a bit further to go. Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about the vulnerability and yeah, strategies how have you managed to overcome some of that stuff?
yeah, I mean, I'm really feeling I'm thinking of the ickiness now. It's, it's hard because I think when you Yeah, like, when you hit send, you put something into the world, it's difficult because it is a part of you essentially that you're opening up to the world and inviting in judgment. And I think that can be really, difficult. But I think what I would say is like, that is, I don't know.
maybe it's a process to get there for every individual, you know, because I think we tend to have a concept of creativity as being the finished artwork or the novel or, you know, the amazing- to the output again, isn't it? Yeah, it becomes again about these really high standards of what we consider, you know, we're not all here to be Picasso. Like that is, you know, it would be great, but- then it would kind of devalue Picasso if we all would. Yeah, anyway. I really want to be Diana Ross.
I know, right? Yeah. I want to be Grayson Perry. So we all have our kind of heroes, I suppose, of that stuff. And I think it's really important to, I don't know, have your own journey in mind, because they talk about, they sort of... like there's some definitions of different types of creativity, which show how creativity is relative. So there's like tiny creativity, which is like kids playing with Lego. You know, that's like the play factor.
And then there's, let me see if I remember, little creativity, which is again, when you're kind of noodling around with doodling in your sketchbook or whatever, it's just for you, it's the process. And then there's medium creativity, which I guess would be, I don't know. that would probably be like someone actually making pottery, you know? And then there's big creativity, which is the painters and the musicians and the famous people, right?
And I think it's kind of like, in terms of what we were talking before, like there's a route through. It's like, well, what do I feel comfortable being at right now? Like what represents a creative achievement relative to how I feel about myself as a creative person? And maybe I can just start there, recognizing that it's an achievement for me and build up because I think that we have a tendency to kind of go look at big creativity and go, God, I'm never going to be there.
And actually even that person wasn't there to begin with. They had to start at tiny creativity and work their way through that journey to get there, you know? so I guess like there, I mean, it's, it's a, obviously like for some people putting something out into the world, at some point is, is going to be something they want to do. But I guess I would just challenge the idea that creativity has to be for anyone except for yourself.
because actually there's so much value in terms of like the well being factors and the I don't know, just like the mindfulness that can come from being part of the process. But in saying that, because obviously sometimes you might want to put things into the world, it comes back to again, creating a bit of psychological safety around constraints. Like I think about life drawing classes and things like that.
So if you've ever been to a life drawing class, you'll know that as part of the warmup, you'll do really, really quick poses. You'll do like three minute poses. And then you'll build up to the 45 minutes, one hour pose at the end of the session. And the reason for that is that you actually, like your brain is limbering up to the confidence that's required to get to the one hour pose without overthinking the hell out of it. And it's something about like the safety of, I've only got three minutes.
So I know it's not going to be very good. I know it's not going to be very finished. So I feel safer to get started with the three minutes. So I guess like figuring out whatever it is that you are, know, whether it's writing or whatever, like what's the, what's that three minute equivalent that you can apply to an activity that's just going to help you get started and it's going to take the pressure off.
Because yeah, I think like regardless of, know, whether you have a masterpiece in your back pocket, which you very likely do. you actually have to just give yourself a chance to get there. So yeah, I think that would be my response to that.
And I love what you're describing here, which is, it resonates with me from a coaching perspective more than anything, because often the creativity that comes in coaching isn't necessarily about, I mean, it can be about producing an outcome or an output, but often it's about people using creativity to explore a different aspect of themselves or of their life or of a decision that they've got to make and being playful and exploring it safely from all those different perspectives gets
you to try it on a bit. You get to wear the jacket for that time and go, is this jacket for me? Yes or no? Like, you can take it off on it. there's something, isn't there, about the process is as important as the outcome. as the output or the product because you learn so much in the process. Whether you're tiny, small, middle, wherever you land on that spectrum. That's exactly it.
And I think, I just think that we put so much pressure on ourselves constantly and we build entire work cultures which are actually all about performance. And I think that that can be limiting sometimes. you know, space for failure is also a critical part of the learning experience.
And I think that failure has kind of become one of those buzzwords that everyone likes to kind of say that they value and that they emphasize, but it's, it's not always followed through in my experience, like, especially in working cultures. And, you know, I think if we don't give ourselves, the opportunity to try something on and for it to not work. think we lose a lot of the potential learning experiences if we don't do that.
I think there's an organizational psychologist called Adam Grant, he has a great podcast. He was saying how he has set himself a failure KPI. So he's like, have to fail. Like I have to have complete failures at least three times per year. so brave. Yeah, I know.
But what he was saying, which I really liked, I really liked this idea because he was like, look, if it means if I, if a project flops or I get a bad review or a burk or whatever, I can kind of chalk it up to Okay, I am actually sitting at the edge of my comfort zone because I, you know, I have, I have failed, but that means that I have tried. I've no, I've tried something and you know, by putting a KPI around it, he's kind of going, yes. Okay. Well I failed three times.
So in one way I've succeeded because I failed three times. know, like that's a bit of a mind trick. Yeah. But I was thinking about it and like, God, imagine having a failure KPI for a team of people, and how powerful that could potentially be. I love that idea in terms of cultivating that, really living the failure, we value failure principle, it would be something like that, wouldn't it?
Just before we get to some recommendations, Harriet, just perhaps one question on blocks, setbacks, when things are not flowing creatively for you, what do you do? Where do you go? How do you get over it? Work through it perhaps. Good question. There's a couple of things I would say, and it sort of depends on the extent of the block, but something about the creative process where it's a very natural thing to reach saturation point and be like, have no idea what I'm doing at this point.
So there's a process of, you know, immersion in the problem space where you're actually supposed to just absorb as much as absorb as much as you can, try as hard as you can. And you kind of know that this part of the process is over because you've hit so many bloody walls that you just can't figure it out. And the frustration and the pain of that experience becomes kind of unbearable at that point. Actually, what you're supposed to do once you've hit that saturation point is just walk away.
And what is, I mean, we've all had the experience of, you know, the... eureka moment in the shower or driving or you suddenly have the thought that allows you to come back to what it is you were struggling with in the first place. So I would say if you are at the point where you are smacking your head against a brick wall, just let it go. Because the beauty of the human brain is that like you're always percolating. You're always kind of letting things go. taking over in the background.
And I think that it takes some time to build some faith in the process and in your own brain to be ingenious in the background. But I would say walking away is a really important thing that will allow you to come back to it. But I also think on the flip side, if you have been struggling to be creative consistently for a decent amount of time, then like often, because I have phases of this, and it is really hard not to beat yourself up.
And I think that actually, sometimes you just have to go, okay, well, what else is going on in my life that's, you know, that's leading to a bit of a block. I think that bringing that kind of lens of compassion. to that is the first thing, because if you're putting more pressure on yourself, just continuously putting pressure on yourself, it's again, it's gonna raise anxiety and then it's gonna be even harder to think. So that's probably the first thing.
And then also, John Cleese has written a really amazing book on creativity that I would highly recommend everyone reading. There's a quote from him. that I really, really liked about this. it's like, he speaks about turning up to try. And it's like, you're actually building a bit of structure and routine potentially, like you spend half an hour every morning trying to do a certain thing.
And it's, again, it's not about the thing, the outcome of the thing, it's about trying and just giving yourself dedicated time. and space and maybe like a quiet spot in your house or, you know, if you're lucky enough to have like a shed or something that you can go anywhere that kind of like becomes your creativity space and just turning up to try and accepting that blocks are a natural part of the process.
There's not, I don't think there's any creative in history that hasn't faced a block of some kind, but it's just like allowing that to be. but also not letting it kind of stop you from doing anything altogether. Turning out to try. Yeah, I really What a lovely mindset, turning out to try. really happy. I feel like I'm taking that away as a tip.
I've been thinking a lot about writing because working in consulting, you know, we're encouraged to write and communicate with our clients in a very particular way. And so I've been exploring. know, trying to and sometimes that feels great. And it feels like an authentic kind of representation of me. And then there's other times where I like, if, there was no client or budget attached to this, I'd be doing this thing over here. And so I've been exploring that.
And one of the one of the teachers there just says, touch your project every day, whether it's for five minutes, 10 minutes, if it's an hour, but just don't let it sit, just touch, touch your project, touch your thing every day. And I think it's a similar thing that you're talking about. There's something about the discipline, like not letting this go, but I'm not over, I'm not putting excessive pressure on myself to finish or do everything within a certain period of time. That's right.
And I think a phrase that you always use that I very much adopted for this exact thing is the hold it lightly. Yeah, I think the ability to approach your creative endeavors or your work just with that sense of lightness, because it's that lightness that will allow you to think about it in a different way.
think, anything where we kind of put a burden of stress onto ourselves is going to be the first thing that prevents us from being exploratory and pushing our boundaries, you know, out of our comfort zone. So anything you can do to cultivate that sense of, yeah, again, using the word psychological safety again. yeah, I think that's just the most critical thing.
So before we finish, Harriet, some of our other guests have given some recommendations for listeners who want to delve a little bit deeper or pick up on this topic. So what have you got for us? Yeah. So the first one, the Blind Boy podcast. I'm obsessed. It's glorious. So Blind Boy is an Irish musician who was part of a novelty band called the Rubber Bandits in the early 2000s. And he is just, I don't know, his mind is incredible.
So he speaks a lot about psychology, about creativity, about his process as an artist. And he also talks about art history and social sciences. And he basically every week just goes on an hour long meandering rant about a certain topic because he's so excited by the most random things that he discovers in the world. And he has a beautiful way of delivering these kind of like internet rabbit holes that he goes down essentially. But telling these really entertaining, exciting stories around them.
And I find his ability to be so fascinated in the world really, I don't know, it really ignites something in me as well. So he's a big advocate for creativity. He talks about it a lot. So he's a bit weird, and he swears a lot. So warning. But I would really recommend giving him a go. And then a book that I've been reading, which I'm only halfway through actually, disclaimer, but there's a book called Range by David Epstein.
And it's, I know if you've heard of it, it's Range Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World. So I love this because I'm a bit of a, it can be a bit of a jack of all trades. And I think I've often, I've often thought about being a generalist as being a bit of a dirty word, because I think we have a bit of a tendency to like culturally to value deep expertise and what this, and I'm just too interested in too many different things to really answer anything.
So Like what this book is all about is essentially arguing the case for actually dipping your toe into lots of different pools of water to actually explore the interdisciplinary space. And the argument goes that the wicked problems that the world is facing right now, they can't actually be addressed by using only one viewpoint. You need the ability to see and approach problems from just as we've been speaking about. a range of different perspectives.
And if you're only thinking about the, I don't know, the deep, like from one deep vertical, you actually miss the opportunity to see the overlaps or the symbiosis between disciplines and between areas. And I personally really, really love that because I'm studying to become a psychotherapist at the moment.
And there's this beautiful, I don't know, like the way in which the psychotherapeutic process works, that kind of healing capacity that a therapist brings to the counseling space has a lot of symbiosis with the way that we, as design facilitators, show up and create space for people to solve problems themselves as well. It's interesting how Carl Rogers's person-centered therapy has so many overlaps with human-centered design.
And yeah, there's something beautiful in that that I never would have spotted if I hadn't given myself a chance to head over into and explore a new area. So I think reading this book is just like, I don't know, it's just really great to read that from a point of view. Yeah, I think it's. So that's the Blind Boy podcast and Ranged by David Epstein.
And I should say three other people, not on the podcast actually, but three other people in my network have said, have you read this book Ranged by David Epstein? it's obviously hitting some buttons with some folks. So I haven't read it, but I have to check that one out. I'll lend it to you when I'm done. So we'll put all of those links into the show notes as well as links to Harriet's LinkedIn and various other socials.
So if you want to connect with Harriet and check out some of her beautiful work, then you can. few last words of wisdom Harriet, anything you want to finish up with? God, put me on the spot. No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave it with them. Yeah, John Cleese's turn up to try. Yeah, I think that's probably the best thing you can do. Lovely. Thank you so much for your time today. I hope you've enjoyed listening and we'll see you on another edition of In the Arena.
If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time. You've been listening to The Coaching In, 3D Coaching's virtual pub. For more information, check out 3dcoaching.com.