You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn. And I'm delighted to have a round table this week, an open table at The Coaching Inn. And we're going to be talking about what got you started in coaching and what keeps you coaching. And I'm delighted to have friends who rocked up at the pub with me. So let's start with you, Lisa Marie.
Introduce yourself to our virtual pub. Hub goers, I am Lisa Marie Sikand. I'm an executive coach and I live in Surrey. Great. Well, welcome Lisa Marie. Manjit. Hi, I'm Manjit Robri. I'm a medic and an executive coach. Great. Former medic, I should say. Okay, welcome. Rachel. Hi, I'm Rachel McKay. I'm from Kent, but I now live in Scotland and I'm a career transition coach. You're very welcome. And Kirsty Knowles, hello. Hi, everyone. Lovely to be here.
Yeah, Kirsty Knowles, I reside in Richmond in that part of London and I'm working as a coach in different areas. All linked to my business called ThinkBeing. Great. Well, you're very welcome. And Dr. Gary Croters. Hello. Hi, everyone. I'm Gary. I am a coach, speaker, author, podcaster, that little group of things to keep me busy. Great. Well, welcome everybody. So I am so interested. What got everyone started in coaching in no particular order?
If you put your hand up, just so we don't get into a car crash. Gary, what got you started in coaching? It's a really difficult question because you have to define when you started coaching. What started me formally coaching was I figured out I probably should go and get some training at some point and I went to Henley. But when I think back, the first ever coaching style conversation I ever did, I think I was about 20. So going back now about 25 years.
So I'd always sort of done it as a kind of side hustle, not really knowing it was coaching like many people do. And then at some point I thought, maybe I actually want to turn this into something I could get paid for. So that was much, later. Great. What got others started? Lisa Marie, what got you started? Honestly, I burnt out. So I had a big career in the city and I had a cataclysmic burnout episode and I essentially had a year out where I redesigned my life.
And one of the things I realized as part of my burnout was that I had really poor boundaries. And so I was looking for a way to use my innate skills, my passion and my love of people, but in a healthier way for me. And I'd come from a C-suite job where I was responsible for, you know, huge budget, really large team.
And I thought I don't necessarily... want to lose working so closely with people and helping them achieve success, but I don't want all of the responsibility that comes with such an enormous job as that. So I went on to a professional coaching accreditation and as part of that personal journey, I just realized that that was my sweet spot. I could help others, I could use my skills. It was something I was really passionate about.
but I could do it in a way that protected my boundaries and was healthy for me as well. So it was quite an eye-opening and watershed moment, shifting from sort of doing to being. And you said, I don't know if you realised you said it, but you said moving from the C-suite to the sweet spot. nice. I like that. like that. Manjit, what got you into coaching?
I used to train doctors and often what used to happen was the doctors could get told what to do when they would ask a question, what do I do with such a patient? They would get told. I started looking into it that there must be a better way and started looking at Socratic questioning because there's a lot written about Socratic questioning. That asking questions of why do you want to do certain things? What is it that made you think that way?
So started educating and I think initially I was seen as a bit of a weird person. Why didn't you just spend five minutes telling them what to do rather than 15 asking them questions? And I think over the years that's developed into a theme in terms of then I did a level five accreditation for coaching and started doing a bit of that. Then started acting at the college level in terms of training the trainers into say, let's have a different way of training, not the old fashioned model.
Since then it's taken on an option, finished the Hanley program to say, now how do we advance our training? So that's where the passion comes from. Amazing. Amazing. It's interesting. I was working with some people in the healthcare sector this morning. And they did some really good work with one another. And one of the questions that came out at the end of it was, why don't we have this more in the workplace?
And what was really interesting for them is that they are in a trust which sees coaching as a special thing. Yes. And I said, well, you could start by not using coaching as a special thing. And you've got the power, you've got the influence to be able to talk to people like this. Okay, yeah, course we have. let's see, let's watch what happens there. Nestea and Rachel, what got you started? So I was first coached myself about 20 years ago, and it found it truly life changing.
And just started to use more of a coaching approach in my corporate life. And then just sort of When I was leaving my corporate life, people said, like, what are going to do? And you should, you should become a coach. You know, that's, you should set up a business and become a coach. And I laughed heartily and said, why would I set up a business? I'm going to retire and enjoy myself.
And then eight months later, I realized I was actually just tired and I started a qualification to study coaching and then set up my business in during pandemic in October 2020 and haven't looked back. I just love seeing the transformation in my clients. I think it's just a real privilege, I think, to continue to work with people and to see them grow within themselves. So that's what got me started, what keeps me going as well. Yeah, that's great.
I love how everybody's come from such different, there's a, are some themes and there's some differences here. What about you, Kirsty? I'm just resonating with some of those themes because I think I can speak to each of what you've shared. I think that I was really moved to learn how to create conditions for people to do really good thinking. And this really originated from working in education.
I was in school settings for about 25 years and I had teacher and the lack of conducive conditions and safe spaces to think and silence to think got me thinking. And I started conceptualizing how unsustainable I thought the profession was. This was back in sort of 2019. And so actually, I want to do something about this. So that's why I was moved to learn how to do this. And so, you know, like others have said, I trained. I also had a business school that's been mentioned.
Then I became tremendously fascinated in neuroscience, so did a second post-grad with them. and just feel that it's such a special partnership to have. And that's what keeps me in the coaching as well, that we can empower others to work things out and to work out what really matters to them. There's a bit of a theme, isn't there, about giving people a spaced process between almost between beginning to think and making the meaning and realizing. And let me share you my thought experiment.
So on a two hour thing, which I do a lot online two hours, so I'll do a group supervision that's two hours, I always leave five minutes in the middle, because I think a cup of coffee or whatever is appropriate for your time of day and go to the loo is a good habit. And until last week, I had completely, I knew, but I didn't know that I knew. But of course, when people come back after five minutes, they come back in a different place.
So my thought experiment at the moment is that when I do a one hour or a 30 minutes with people, I'm going to invite them to have a break in the middle. But the reason that you, Kirsten, you, Manjit have described, which is that's the moment when the thing drops from the thinking to the knowing to the making meaning thing. So if anyone wants to try that out and come and talk at the coaching in about what happens, it's a bit of a kind of thought experiment.
What could happen if you did that thing thing? So my journey into coaching was that I was a coach for nearly 10 years before I knew it. And then I read an article and thought, that's the name of the thing I do. It's hugely relieving because trying to explain to people at parties what you did and they went, what? You're a counselor?
No. And of course, it was difficult to articulate yourself when you kind of knew that it was non-directive, but non-directive work consultancy is not a beautiful name. Coaching is a lot easier. So I'm just really curious why we stay because what we know about coaching is that building a business is quite a big thing. So, and not necessarily easy. So what keeps you in the business?
Go on, Gary. It's an interesting question, because as you asked it, I figured out something, which is that the success of the business and the coaching that makes you stay can be completely separate from one another. So sometimes the coaching, often the coaching that makes me stay is free, actually, doesn't have to be paid. It's quite difficult to build a business on entirely free coaching.
But I think that for me, I've learned to dissociate the two entirely and pursue the thing that I love in coaching, which is the powerful conversation with the person, which isn't necessarily powerful because the actual conversation is powerful, but the impact is powerful. And I enjoy observing the impact of the thinking on the person. And then separately, I just have to figure out how to build a business that generates enough revenue that I'm out of house and home.
But the thing that keeps me staying is those moments and they're necessarily all the time, but when they happen, they are so memorable and so privileged that you're in a space with a person who did something or thought something or figured something out that in the kind of coaching that I do to change their life. And I've just done a repeat of a coaching project I first did two years ago. I've met two people particularly that I can think of. I did one hour of coaching with each of them in 2021.
And then I've just last month done a second hour of coaching with them. So their five minute break is two years. Fabulous. And for both of them in that two year period, they have both made a fundamental shift that they wouldn't have made if they didn't have two years to think about it and figure it out. it's It's the power of being able to, for the most significant impact, be able to let go of however long it takes and say, it takes time.
takes, you have to leave your brain space and time to do the thinking it needs to do. So you have to dissociate it from the building of the business for which you need a number of coaching sessions and all of those kinds of things. So I think it is that for me, it's that I've got to separate the two to make it work. Yeah. The thing about the disassociating and the gap makes me smile because of course, now I do a lot of developing of coaches.
I am often in a room or online with people who are being coached by others. But then I'll meet somebody five years later and they'll go, you remember that coaching session we have had? Well, number one, it wasn't with me. And number two, I wasn't there. I wasn't listening, but they still associate it with me being on the premises. And it's really funny because where we affix the meaning of where the transformation happened is super interesting. Manjit, you were going to speak.
What keeps you in this business? I think the constant, I think mentioned in terms of getting to know people, in terms of the constant themes that people bring up and the constant change in yourself in terms of the things that you did five years ago that you now think are not appropriate or ill-equipped to handle it.
So you're just constantly internalizing some of your own reactions, interactions and keeping that emotional agility, I call it, within the context because you come across some quite emotional, emotive stuff, particularly when I see a lot of doctors who are struggling, you mentioned Bernhardt early on, they get to work. How do you listen to that story? and not be triggered by it.
How do you actually keep that resilient in yourself and an emotionally intelligent way of responding rather than reacting to what they're thinking? And silence becomes a big, big issue. Just listening, non-judgmental listening. It's easier said than done. Because often our minds are going all over the place, but it's just asking yourself, why am I being judgmental here? What do I need to do differently? And just And that's what keeps me going. That's a constant theme each week.
There's something different. And I love what you said about learning and keeping on getting insights of your own as you journey through. And I mean, that's certainly true for me. said, Stuart Reed, who does the presence training with me, we were delivering it the other day and we were setting it up and I said, Stuart, I've just had an insight. And he went, don't you have them all? But I think.
The thing that's interesting about coaching is that we have a language to be able to articulate that we've just had an insight. And then when we can say it out loud, that begins the journey of movement. Doesn't it? We've just had a bit of a, we've hired somebody to help us with some work and reflecting on what's happened doesn't surprise me, but it surprised us in the moment. So we commissioned this person to do some work with us.
But because we started thinking about it on the day we commissioned them, of course, by the time they did the conversation with us about the work, that wasn't the work. And then that causes, you know, we need to renegotiate the work now. But we get ourselves, don't we, into a space where a thinking process becomes a very normal and natural part of how we do what we do.
you know, it's really important, isn't it, not to underestimate the impact of that, both positive and slightly odd and rather surprising, when you forget it's going to happen. So what about others? keeps us here? Rachel. So in my corporate life, I was in quality in the pharmaceutical industry. So I spent a lot of time kind of doing troubleshooting and root cause analysis. Often people call me Miss Marple.
But I think the thing about it was that I was asking questions around processes that I wasn't going to follow. So whilst I might have known what I might do in that situation. I couldn't give them an answer. wouldn't give them an answer. I'd be, you know, just asking them what they thought. And that's just the extension, you know, for coaching is that that's what I do day in, day out.
I do feel really privileged that people share with me such, you know, things that they probably haven't shared with other people around their career and their thoughts around it. And, you know, as Manjit said, everything is, every day is different. And I love, I do love variety. So, you know, there are constants, but there's variety. And I just feel really privileged to spend some time with people and ask just, you know, ask a few questions and then see, you can see their, their brain working.
can hear their brain working as they speak and just seeing them have those insights. those are hard moments themselves. just seeing, well, I was really privileged to be part of that. And then to see, know, the guy was talking about, know, a couple of years, Scott, but just seeing that the processing has continued between that time and the next time we meet and just seeing the of the leaps that they make, which, you know, a leap can be tiny, but it can be big for them.
So I just love seeing the transition and the way that they change. And it makes me. makes me do the same. I definitely believe in self growth and even thinking about how did I control that coaching conversation or not. And so yeah, it's a two way thing. It's seeing my clients growth, but also knowing that I'm doing the same and seeing how far I've come in quite a short space of time. Wow. So for the benefit of our listeners around the world, 112 countries FYI.
That's where you come from 112 countries, which is absolutely amazing. But for the benefit of people who don't know Miss Marple, she is an elderly English detective. So my question, Rachel, about Miss Marple is how do you keep Miss Marple from interfering in your coaching conversations? It's a good question. It's something that I reflect on after you know, after each session.
Because I have to keep making sure that I'm just reflecting back, this is what I heard you say, and not to direct them into, actually, can, know, aha, I know who the murderer is. And really avoid doing that and just be open to the fact that maybe it's something completely different and it's likely to be completely different. I have to suspend that as well. We have a house guest staying with us at the moment.
And for the last two nights, I've fallen asleep in a murder mystery before we found out who did it. And I wake up and she said, she said, don't you find it difficult to have missed all the working out? And my husband went, no, because she worked out who it was in the first five minutes. But you have to really stop that. You have to really stop that in coaching. And it's a very intentional. I'm not here to be the mystery solver. Exactly.
Yeah. And that did take me quite a long time to really adjust to. think, you know, early days, it was very much, I'm going to fix this situation. And then, you know, I quickly recognized that that's not my job at all. So yeah. Yeah. So Kirsty and Lisa Marie, what keeps you staying? I think it's really important what was just said about it being key for our clients to work things out for themselves. And when that happens, it is really beautiful.
And I guess the approach that I take, which you might share in some way, and one of the reasons why I continue coaching is that I really respect and appreciate every person as a whole person when I meet them and that inner wisdom that they have which they may have lost touch with or they may be overlooking or has been squashed when they find that in a coaching session or in between coaching sessions because a lot of the greatest of thinking actually happens in between the coaching sessions.
It's just a role that I relish and linked to this sense of everybody being a human being before a human doing. I know that was touched on earlier. That was something that I really began to cultivate in my thinking and in my business. that whether it's in a personal context or a workplace context, if we nurture the humanity of each of us and we give space for people to do that for themselves and work it out in relation to others, then that's really important work.
And the important work that I see ahead of me is so deep and there's so much of it. that I couldn't imagine not being in the profession of coaching. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because for that to be true, we have to make sure that people don't accidentally guru us. And I think that's another piece of work. I mean, I spend my life saying to people, don't guru me. And I try not to guru anybody apart from the person who's coming on the podcast in a few weeks who I guru a lot.
You can all guess who it is. That's a request to our listeners. Answers on a postcard. Is it Brad Pitt? It is not Brad Pitt. It is not. No, and it's not somebody from the coaching world. Gosh, my mind did not go to a celebrity actually in the realms of Brad Pitt. But I was just thinking then, Claire, that I hold you in such high regard that I have been feeling jittery today. Yeah, don't. And it is important to not guru the person, right?
Because if we are in this together and to meet each other in that kind of space that is equitable, we very much need to remind ourselves that we are learning. from each other and we have as much insight to gain about ourselves. Although that's not the priority in a coaching conversation, but that comes with our reflection after the after the practice that we have done in service of others. And we are just ordinary people. And I think we absolutely have to name that and to nail it.
And that's why we've written the new book because We live in a world that likes to guru people and actually being guru is quite nice. But it doesn't make a partnership if the person that I'm working with thinks I have superpowers, because I don't. I don't have any magical power at all, sadly. Lisa Marie, what keeps you in this world? I think because the work is so purposeful, I find it. probably the single most rewarding work I've done.
Being able to provide that space to somebody else and watch them move forward to achieve things that they don't think are possible, most likely when they first come and work with me and to walk alongside them on their journey. It's been said repeatedly so far, but it is honestly an honor and a privilege. And my own experiences of having been coached and, you know, experiencing other talking therapies, they have for me, it changed my life.
And I don't think the people that, you know, my partners in those conversations are gurus by any means, but the process has put me on a completely different path, has freed me from limited thinking. has empowered me to make different choices. And I think modern living is really tough and lots of people spend too much time inside their own heads. And that can be a difficult or dangerous place to inhabit untested.
And so for me, coaching is part of this bigger extension of helping people to thrive. And there's a real place for that. when there's so much value based on extrinsic things and helping people just come back to themselves and close out a lot of the noise for me is just a legacy that I would be really proud to leave. Wow. And I love what you said, Lisa Marie, about the process. because it's the process that we offer that's the thing that enables the other person to do the work.
And then of course the skill that we use in that is to not get in the way of the process that we're offering. Yeah, that's, yeah, Gary. really resonating with what people are saying. And I think there's a common theme coming through that I believe in very strongly, which is that the most purposeful, fluent, happy coaches are ones who would be coaching for free, because it means something. It's important to them. They love being in that kind of conversation. They love doing that kind of work.
And the moment when I started, I'd been dabbling in paid coaching about 18 months whilst as a side hustle before I decided to buy the bullet and go and train at Henley. And I just left the role that had paid me the most money in my career. And I could have gone and looked for another one of those. And I didn't and I went, no, this coaching thing is something that now I want to go and do.
What I didn't do and I'm quite glad I didn't do is add up the total amount of money I've made in coaching up to that point, over 18 months. And I just thought, I thought, I've done all right, actually, you know, I've worked with quite a few people, some were for free, some were for a little bit of money, but at the kind of paying for coffee level. When I looked back, in 18 months, I'd made a total of 1000 pounds.
And if I'd looked at that number at the time, I might have my rational brain might have gone, not sure you quite have the evidence to do this. But I felt like I did. And I'm really glad that I felt like I did, because it meant that I just went and said, I'm going to do it. I have to figure out how to do it and how to make this a sustainable practice. And I've met so many amazing coaches in the last several years that I've been really focusing in on it.
And as I say, those ones, it is a calling for them. And it's something that that it's not about the business, it's not about the money, it's not about the fame, it's not about any of those things, it's just because that's the thing. And that's what I feel. I need to have a business, because I need to pay the bills, but that's not why I'm coaching. And I think that again, it's that sort of dissociation of the business from coaching.
I see a lot of people on the other side, who are worried about Is their business successful enough? Are they charging enough? Have they got the right kinds of clients? Are they coaching properly within the rules? They're people who are constantly struggling with coaching.
The people who are really fluent and in flow in coaching and Claire and I were talking recently about being in flow in coaching are actually less worried about whether they're right or wrong, but they're just doing the thing that they have a calling for. And I think there's something about naming and recognizing when it feels like that and saying, That's okay. That's a good thing. When it feels like that, whatever you're doing, do more of that. I think that's important.
Yeah. And that reminds me of the John O'Day quote that I described with Ed Haddon the other day on a podcast around the difference between vocation and avocation. So vacation is what you're describing there as calling, Gary. And then avocation is the thing we do to earn the money to be able to do the other bit. And many coaches, don't they, are doing they're very, as you described, they're very best work in a space where they're not paid or they're paid very little.
And then they do something else to be able to make that possible. interesting the idea that I think Kirsty said, which was that the impact may not be in the coaching session at all. So as coaches, we can all be a little bit obsessed as to whether we asked the right question. Actually, what's important is simply when that person left the coaching session was their brain in movement.
And well, interesting things now happen between now and the next time we speak, or now and we'll never speak again, but still good things will happen. That's interesting. Yeah. I had a really interesting class this morning where we started talking about flow and how we get people in flow and how you keep them in flow and how sometimes we accidentally don't get them in flow. That's a really interesting one.
In fact, I've got somebody on my hit list who I hope is going to come and talk to us about flow. So she writing down his name on the list to follow up to make sure we have a podcast on flow, Kirsty. Because actually that's really interesting to ponder a little bit more. If coaching was only done in isolation, what a limiting constraint that would be.
because there would be a really contrived let's start let's stop And then reflection, is so very important to us for our integrity as coaches would be the time for thinking to marinate for the client that would be rushed or overlooked or not encouraged. And I'm now just thinking back to those years when I was in a school setting. and how much I championed the learning that happened outside of the classroom. And that's probably why I've become really interested in outdoor coaching.
And I'm doing a lot more of that because there's, there's a tripartite relationship happening where something, something magical can connect with a person's senses that just can't be planned for or rehearsed when a conversation is taking place. and nature is gifting. such symbolism or representation or a sound or a scent. And it's normal not to speak outside. you can get much less attached to feeling that you have to say the next thing. That's so true.
It's interesting because one of the things that I teach on some of our programs is how to coach an introvert with a notebook. which really builds what you said, Kirsty, on the concept that actually it's not all in the room. It's absolutely not in the room. And you get the person who's got, they always have a beautiful notebook. They arrive in the conversation with their beautiful notebook and they open their beautiful notebook and you say, what would you like to think about today?
And they look at their notebook and they say, I'd like to think about this. And I say to them, how much further down your notebook do we need to be for you to feel that we've done a really good thing today? And they'll go all about two lines. So I'll say, so what do we need to do? You what are the things we need to think about so that you get two more things in your notebook and they'll go, we need to do this or this.
We're done in 10 minutes because they only needed me or somebody or the process. enough to unlock the line they were on and to get them two lines further down. And now they want to go because they want to take their notebook to their secret place where they do their notebook thinking and carry it on without me. And so let's release them from feeling any obligation or us feeling obliged to them that they need to stay for the rest of the hour because it doesn't all happen in the room. Totally.
I've got a client who sometimes will have her epiphany and she'll be like, I'm done. I'm going and I'll be like, brilliant. Bye. Well, congratulations, Lisa Marie. I'm being confident enough to be able to do that. I had an email from somebody this afternoon who said they'd just done it for the first time and how absolutely totally exciting it was. But if we've done the work, we've done the work. So let's let them go. And I also think that's about keeping yourself and your ego in check.
And to Kirsty's point, you know, that's where supervision and the integrity of what we're doing is really helpful. And when we reflect, you know, it's not, it's not about us. And in my earlier days, you know, when I was keeping probably a much more detailed look than I do now, I always walked away from conversations which were, had elements of being directive rather than being fully non- directive, disappointed in myself because I'm like, that's not what you're supposed to be doing.
And so that ability to reflect and see where you're going wrong, but also recognize that you have a much more powerful conversation, truthful conversation, and a much increased likelihood of them making a shift or a change when it comes from within and it's not from you. And that's what I just love. They're like, They are literally my best moments in coaching where you can see somebody like ding. It's not necessarily a positive ding, but it's the ding of that's it. That's what I need to do.
And in that you were describing incompletions. You know, we only need to do as much as we need to do. We don't need to finish it off. We don't need to definitely finish it off for them. So there's a lightness, isn't there, about we just need to do enough so they feel, seen, heard, felt, and get new insights into their own stuff. Sometimes the insight comes a lot later on.
Yeah. Sometimes there's a delay, as Gary was alluding to, you get an email or you get a phone call saying, actually, I've sussed it. And sometimes at the end of the conversation, I think you have the opposite happen, that you feel nothing's changed and you... let it let it as you said, you just let it happen because that's the end of our sort of conversation and then a week later, if sometimes you get a text message saying, actually, I know what I need to do, whatever that is.
And I think it's just like you said, think Lisa said, Lisa Marie said, is letting your ego get out of the way that I need to fix something, you know, you know, I'm just a facilitator. And that's a facilitated conversation in a non judgmental sense. and they just need to move forward a little bit, which is what we hope our listeners have done today in this conversation. So we're going to finish in a minute.
And I'd love to hear from everybody the insight that you've had, everyone in the room today around the table, the insight that you've had, but just a heads up for our listeners. We're going to do an open table at the coaching and once a month. And the next one is going to be about long COVID, being a coach with long COVID or coaching people with long COVID. And then we're going to do one. what I wish I'd known about the accreditation process.
So I'll put a link in the show notes where you can click through and sign up if you sign up to come because that'd be great because there are lots of people want to come and join us. So thank you for joining us at the Coaching In. Dr. Gary Crotars, Lisa Marie Sikhand, Kirsty Knowles, Rachel McKay and Manjit Obery. What is the insight? that you would like to go away with everybody. in no particular order. Gary?
On a medical theme, because I'm also an ex-doctor, coaching is not like surgery where the treatment happens on the operating table. nice. Quite interesting. Yeah. So for me, being that introvert with her notebook in front of her, think actually you don't have to finish it off because actually nothing is ever finished. It's always evolving. I think that's my key. Thank you, Rachel. For me, it's that there's, sorry, Manjit, please go. Please, Amarie, carry on. thank you.
For me, it's that there's a coach for everyone. You know, we're all very different. There's things that bind us together, but we're all really different. And I just love the fact that you can find somebody who you resonate with wherever you come from and whatever you're grappling with, that, you know, there's so much diversity in this profession. Thank you. Manjit.
inside is just giving the space and the time and not letting the ego get in the way of actually trying to finish a job like Gary Lou did, the operation doesn't happen during the surgical procedure, it happens afterwards. I like the doctors agreeing on that one. We as coaches are certainly not the gurus and that there is great collegiality amongst us in the coaching community and we can lean into that.
But also for our future clients that the inner wisdom is to be found and that we validate our clients as whole when we meet them. And so with that skill of unconditional positive regard, we look forward to meeting you and working with you. Yeah. Nobody's perfect and nobody's trying to be perfect, I hope. Well, thank you, Rachel McKay, Kirsty Knowles, Dr. Gary Crotar, Lisa Marisic and Dr. Manjit Obery for coming to The Coaching In.
Thank you, everyone, for listening and enjoy and do sign up if you want to come to one of the other Open Tables. So bye bye. and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time.