You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's Coaching In. I'm Claire Pedrick and today it's my great pleasure to have Sam Isaacson back for a return visit. Sam, you'll remember, has talked to us before about technology and coaching and his book Superhuman Coaching.
And we agreed a long time ago, Sam, that we would talk about apprenticeships in coaching and how that kind of operates in organisations. So welcome back. It's great to be back. know, the coaching in is a welcoming place. And so it's always nice to come back. Thank you. Well, you are most welcome. So tell us a bit about you for people who are listening to you for the first time. Well, hello, everyone. My name is Sam Isaacson. I have a background in professional services.
I was a technology risk consultant for many years before starting to build out a coaching services. business within Grant Thornton, which is one of the big professional services firms. left there. gosh. Beginning of last year, and at the time of recordings, that would be beginning of 2022 to join Coach Hub to lead their global consulting work, and left Coach Hub earlier this year.
And now I'm doing my own thing talking to coaches and organisations around coaching and particularly coaching with technology and coaching in organizations. Brilliant. So we got lots to talk about. Yes. Yeah, yeah, never. So why don't we start with the apprenticeship so we don't forget and I don't have to put it back on my list. Talk to Sam about coaching apprenticeships. Under rabbit hole to go down there.
So I suppose the reason why it would be good to have a conversation about apprenticeships is because I, by complete accident, ended up stumbling into a role This was probably 2018, I think, where I picked up the chair of what is called the Coaching Professional Apprenticeship Trailblazer Group.
So within the world of apprenticeships, then the government provides permission for organizations to kind of band together in what are called trailblazer groups to define what apprenticeship standards ought to look like.
So if you are going to become, I don't know, a roofer, then when you do the roofing apprenticeship, you know that every roofing apprentice in the country is being trained and measured against the same standard, and that that standard has been defined by the employers of those roofers rather than by... some professional body or some training providers who, know, as much as they might have the textbook knowledge is meant to be very practical in terms of what employers are looking for.
And so with my group, then we got it was wild, more than 100 employers of coaches wanted to contribute to the standard to say, you know, in our organization, coaching should look like this. And so over quite a long period, it felt like at the time we work together to define what is the role of a coach, you know, what what are the daily duties that a coach would be carrying out inside an organization? What is the knowledge and skills and behaviors that a good coach would have?
And ultimately, then what would it look like to consistently assess whether somebody is a good coach, you know, has gone through a training program and has got to a point where they're now kind of fully competent to be delivering that well within organizations. And so yes, it was a large group of employers, we also had some training providers represented in there as well to give us an understanding in terms of kind of what's possible, I suppose.
as well as the big professional bodies, which for me that felt like it was a opportunity to support an open dialogue where we get professional bodies that have points of difference. And that's why there's more than one of them. But to get into all agree and say, actually, yeah, if somebody has gone through this program, then that would make them a good coach. And so I was really pleased. Like I said, I picked up the role in 2018.
It was in 2020 that the Secretary of State for Education signed it off as an official apprenticeship. so by the end of that year, then the first programs had started. understanding is that it is the largest coaching qualification in England. That's a little bit anecdotal. I haven't seen solid facts about that. But certainly when I speak to the training providers, then it tends to be their largest programs by a big, big distance.
And the reason for that, I didn't say this earlier, is because employers who are wanting to train their people to become coaches and fund apprenticeship training through what's called the apprenticeship levy, a levy part that they pay into, which obviously they can't do with other forms of training.
that's, I'm really pleased with kind of where it's gotten the impact it's having and everybody that I meet that has been on a program or, involved in that world so that it's good so it's really nice to be associated with it. That sounds like a bit of world-changing work Sam. Yes, there we go. If I've done one thing then it's that.
I think it was my opportunity of saying I suppose a lot of employers say we're really interested in coaching and They might run a workshop and get people to have a half day where they learn the grow model, or they might even train some people and use some kind of qualification that's out there. But to be able to give employers something that's attractive for them to use because it doesn't cost them cash to put people onto those programs and that has met the standards of the professional bodies.
if in effect what we're saying is, this is a high quality it's not always going to be accredited because of some of the technicalities of it. But you know, if you go through this program, it's in effect that you've got to the same level as an accredited coach would have.
Well, if that's the most attractive way that employers build up their internal pool of coaches, isn't that great in terms of improving consistency and quality of coaching, at least in England, you know, it's not quite internationally, but you know, changing the country. That's, yeah, that's really exciting. Yeah, I'm really pleased. Wow, and how do people find out about the apprenticeship if they're an employer or a or a trainer or whatever? Where's the information source?
Yes, there's the website. Yes, it's the Institute for apprenticeships and technical education. I think that the website is institute for apprenticeships.org. But if you search for Institute for apprenticeships, then you'll find it. And the official name for the apprenticeship standard is coaching professional.
Wow. So there's a there's a quite a few different coaching apprenticeships, know, apprenticeships that have got the word coach in them, like agile coach or sports coach, or there's one that's assessor coach, which is a very specific use of that term in the education sector. But yeah, the coaching professional one, it's got my name on it. So you might be able to recognize it from that.
And you'll see it's got the kind of ICF, EMCC, ILMCMI Association for Coaching, you know, their names are on there as well. So, amazing. Yeah, it's great. So what surprised you in that process, Sam? well, I think probably the biggest, it was a very interesting conversation. What was what was surprising me the most throughout the whole process was that there was this world that's existed that I had no idea about.
So, you know, every so often, you kind of discover a job that somebody has and go, that's interesting. I never even thought that anybody would have that job. And then it turns out that hundreds of thousands of people have the same job. And apprenticeships is this highly technical world with lots of regulations and lots of people work in that space. And it's, you know, they find it very interesting.
And in some ways, of course, it's very similar in terms of the ultimate objective between apprenticeships and coaching, really, you know, you're trying to help people to develop and apprenticeships is one route to do that. And coaching is a different one, maybe slightly different populations, but it's the same. kind of general world, but the way of thinking is quite different.
So the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education likes things to be done in very quantifiable, predictable, very consistent black and white sits in neat rows. And that's entirely appropriate, of course, if you're to have something that's run consistently across thousands of organizations, then actually you need some clear boundaries around kind of where everything sits. Whereas in the coaching world, we tend to be a lot more ambiguous, quite intentionally ambiguous.
you know, it's about your personal experience in journey. So one example of that would be one of the pieces of evidence that we had put forward to suggest that you're a good coach is your reflective practice. And so a piece of evidence that you could use would be your reflection notes. And the Institute did not like that at all. Because they said, well, you're just never allowed to use self-reflection as evidence of skill.
And we managed to twist their arm and convince them when the skill that we're looking for is self-reflection, then that seems like an appropriate That's true. But I actually kind of agree with them. Go on, on, say more. Well, I mean, I kind of agree with them because the thing about self-reflection is it's a really useful thing, but you don't know the impact of what the impact of what you did had on the other person. So real observable data is also useful, right? Yes, absolutely.
So the way that every apprentice in the country is assessed in the same way. And the way they're assessed is through being observed coaching somebody. Brilliant. There's some other bits to it as well. But that's kind of the core piece of it. And we designed it that way, because it seemed like we want this to be the best assessment ever, you know, for for coaching. And I know that you could do a quiz to see if you know the right answers.
But actually, it's really about, you know, how you are as a coach. And that's the only way you can test that is by observing it. Yeah. Well, I should be heading straight to that website when we finish our conversation. I'm telling you. I think it's a really helpful document. You know, can download the documents for free. They're available there. And like I say, the professional bodies have all contributed to it. So in terms of a really robust, what's the word that I'm looking for?
comprehensive, a really comprehensive overview of this is what makes a good foundation level coach, you know, this is not looking at the kind of absolute top coach here, a really good quality coach that employer would be happy with. Wow. And they're in nice neat detail. So yeah, it's good. So you sprung into that from your work in an organization developing their coaching people. So I'm really curious, what's your passion around organisational coaching, Sam?
Well, suppose, you know, my background is in professional services. so I have and specifically within, you know, this world of technology risk consulting, a lot of that is around governance, risk and compliance. And something that the coaching world tends to lack is good practice governance, risk and compliance. Well, you know, coaching does tend to happen in a more decentralized manner. you know, because the conversations are confidential, then the way that we evaluate it tends to be anecdotal.
Generally speaking, this is a little bit of a judgmental statement, but I do think it's true. Generally speaking, coaches have a tendency away from things like spreadsheets and management control processes, you know, we're much more comfortable just in a nice, pleasant conversation with people. And so something that I've been talking about for quite a while now really is how to mature the control environment within which coaching operates.
Which I know, know, can feel a little bit foreign sometimes when you want to have as you know, all the freedom that you possibly can, and you want to be led in an emergent way. And I don't think that those two things are diametrically opposed, but they don't, you know, you don't naturally kind of connect one with the other.
I think that doing that properly actually helps you to monitor the impact of it and demonstrate that more easily, which then helps with, you know, buy in from people who are kind of within the business and so investment as well. His impact and feeling are so very different, aren't they?
It's interesting because in Tunde Adoshi's research when she was doing her PhD and her coaching with present stuff, you know, her information that what the coach self reports versus what the video data says and what the thinker says are completely different. And the coach will always report a better view than the thinker or the video evidence of actually what happened in the room, which is so interesting.
And you've really got me connecting with that recent report on the British news about the life coaching scam. where people had given over thousands and thousands of pounds. I don't know if you saw that reported. But standards and risk, you know, I've been thinking a lot about that recently and how important it is that coaches belong to a professional body, not as much for the coach, but because it gives power to the client, the customer. to know what to do if something goes wrong.
Yes, and to know how to, even just at a very high level, to know how to determine if this is going according to plan or not. yeah. And then have an action if it isn't. Whereas if the only person you can complain to or check something out with is the person who's doing it, if we go back to the roofers. and your roof is doing your roof and you're thinking that doesn't look normal. And you say to the roofer, is this okay? And the roofer goes, yes, yes.
You want to go back to the roofing people, don't you? The people who know about roofing and go, is my roof going to fall in? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, gosh, yes.
No, this is a trigger to a thought in me, you know, I spend a lot of my time thinking about how technology is influencing the future of coaching and something that's coming up quite a lot recently is you've probably seen this as well that with the simple conversational AI tools that everybody now has access to chat GPT and this sort of thing, you can tell that to start coaching you and it does a pretty good job, but a really good job actually, but a lot of human coaches in some ways.
And then the challenge is, well, obviously the technology is improving and people are going to be working hard at it. So there's going to be a tipping point where AI takes over from a human, surely. And then the question arises, at least it does for me, what is it? What is it about? What is it that makes coaching coaching?
Because if all it is is listening well summarizing back asking open questions, sticking to a topic following a model, the stuff that we're kind of all trained in our first couple of weeks as being trained as coaches. Well, I can quite easily do all of that actually, then demonstrably better than a human. And yet we still, you know, carry this sense around with us where actually there's things that humans do as coaches that are valuable and a part of the coaching experience.
which are innately human. So just the fact of sitting and being with somebody, that's a really powerful thing that a coach does, which a robot cannot because it's not human. So have we got our definitions of coaching, you know, slightly wrong? Do we need to kind of revisit what coaching really is to sort of help us to understand what is it that we're really bringing and what is it that makes us different? Thank you for plugging our new book. Go on, name it, name it.
13th of November, the human behind the coach. And my gut feeling is that coaching is about 90 % human and about 10 % technical. And that technical bit really, really matters. And as you're talking, I'm thinking, Isn't it interesting? Cause one of the things that happens when human people coach someone else is that it's really easy to get lost in the stuff and you can program, you can program a computer to not get lost in the stuff.
So of course it's going to be better in that bit, but the human to human contact where my courage impacts your courage and my vulnerability impacts your vulnerability. That's the bit that the robot can't do, isn't it? That is exactly what I was having a conversation with somebody the other day.
That's exactly where we landed that coaches, some of the things that coaches do that are most effective, you look at it and you try to sort of analyze, well, at that moment, then you asked about the assumption that the other person had, or you held this silence for just a bit longer than was comfortable. And that's where the power was. actually, the reason why it's powerful isn't necessarily in the specific action, but it's in the bravery that lay behind it.
AI does not feel bravery, it just, just processes. Yes. We should do a double act. Yeah, yeah, so interesting. So going back, we were we were talking about about organisational coaching and, and I love the fact that now it's a legitimate thing with apprenticeships, you know, that's spreading coaching more widely, isn't it? I had a supervision yesterday with some people and One of them said, you you've been around Claire for 35 years. What have you noticed in the profession?
And I wish I'd known yesterday what I know today. Cause it would have been, I'll send them all a message, say, it's been a bit legitimized. Cause when I started out, people didn't know what I was talking about. And actually that's still true sometimes, isn't it? But it's getting less true. Mike, so sorry, that was a very long and rambly way of saying. What's your hope for the profession for the next 25 years? gosh, what a question. Can I?
I'm not sure if I'm going to answer the question, but I've kind of got a direction of thought that my mind has gone in. So let's go. So if I take it from the angle of an organization and just sort of play out, I've been I've developed this model. I mean, I say I've developed it. I've basically taken good practice governance and risk management models and sort of stuck coaching into it.
And for me, this helps me to understand the direction of travel that I'm hoping that organizations approach to coaching goes. And so I wonder if I go down this route, if it's going to end up answering that question. If it doesn't, then maybe we can connect the dots at the end. But it's a five.
I've stage model, you don't necessarily have to go kind of stage one, then stage two, then stage three, but it makes a lot of sense that this is where organizations go and hopefully this will ring true for you. At stage one, this is where an organization has never had coaching before, and maybe somebody joins the organization. And because they've had coaching in the past, they recognize it's a helpful thing.
So when a coachable person appears on their radar, they go, you could probably do with some coaching. I'll put you in touch with my old coach, and they kind of bring the coach in and that's the first experience that the organization has. And a lot of organizations have this is the way that they have coaching, an individual coach kind of gets in and interacts with different pockets of the business and it happens differently in one department, with another one.
So there's no real control, there's no strategy behind it, it's just coaching is just starting to happen, decentralized. That's level one. Level two is where that begins to get centralized typically around a person. So an individual joins the L &D department typically. And let's give them a name, Chris. So Chris is now in the L &D department. Chris is a coach, Chris loves coaching. And so suddenly notices, it would be helpful to introduce coaching across the organization.
And so starts to tell people we can do some coaching. And then when those coaching needs arise, then maybe not all the time, because people don't always know it. of happens through conversation, people go, I'll talk to Chris, Chris has got a list of coaches that they trust, and then they bring those coaches in. But when Chris leaves the organization, effectively coaching leaves with them. So level three is where you can I say, this is so familiar. Good. Anecdotally, I totally agree with you.
Keep going. Level three. Yeah, so level one, decentralized level two key person level three is that basically Chris's mind is put into a set of documents, maybe even a technology system.
So that the process that Chris follows to identify a coach and assess the coaching need, and determine how many sessions of coaching happen in an engagement, because that's different from organization to organization, that gets designed into a set of processes and policies and procedures that everybody then has a shared understanding so that when Chris leaves, the documents remain and so the process continues to operate.
And it's not indefinitely sustainable, but it's definitely more sustainable because it's been designed. Level four is then when you're able to monitor what's happening. So it's not just been designed, but the data sort of exists somewhere so that you're able to say, we're six months into the year, how much coaching has happened? this many sessions in these different departments, you we're getting a level of insight into what's happening, even maybe a level of impact monitoring.
an interesting thought about that that I might come back to later because of something that you said earlier on. But so that's sort of in there to be able to demonstrate what coaching is happening in an organization. And the top level, level five is when you incorporate a feedback loop into the whole thing. So those insights you're getting aren't just there for quality assurance or to understand what's happening to get a bit more control over it.
But it's to continuously improve what's actually happening on the ground and to get better impact year on year. In the organization? Yes. So that's the systemic level, right? That's it. Yeah. So the original question was, what do I hope happens to profession in the next 25 years? I suppose I hope that the professionalization journey that we've been on for the last 35 years continues, but continues at a more systemic level.
it's, you know, I think the way that a coach carries out a coaching conversation now, we've got so many resources to support that, that is really good, you know, actually, we know that there's a level of quality, there's good, consistent training that happens. And so people have got access to a lot of, you know, a lot of people and a lot of things that they didn't in the past.
But I would hope that in the future that We are thinking at a grander scale that it's affecting organizations and the wider systems that we're working in and the technologies incorporated in a positive and helpful way. Yes, there we go. did get there in the end. So one of the things that I've noticed over my whole life as a coach is the risk that still is true in some places where it's almost more of an employee assistance program than it is a strategic impact on the business thing.
And so I love what you're saying of really trying to loop it in. And there's something isn't there in that journey about making it a really positive developmental thing rather than a remedial. you get a coach if we think you're a bit broken. Yes. Well, I think, gosh, again, this might sound quite judgmental. Maybe I'm not sure this is true. I think it's true and definitely true in some places that coaching happens in quite a reactive way.
So a person is identified through a performance review or just some conversation or they've gone on a leadership workshop or something and you know, somebody's identified them. And we go, could probably do with some coaching. so we sort of kick off some process. There are definitely organizations that are doing it in a more strategic way.
What I would like to think is that we could take coaching much more in a sort of top down perspective to be able to say, well, what is the purpose of coaching in the organization? The whole employee assistance concept is a really helpful one because in a lot of organizations, in practice coaching is run where It's only an interaction between the coach and the coachee. So that whole idea of the coach turns up and says to the coachee, are your goals? That's the way you run it.
When actually, if as an organization we've decided we want to provide coaching as part of the benefits package, then I know that feels valid. But if we're meant to be doing this as a women in leadership program and we're giving coaching to some women, then there should be a much more systemic lens on that goal setting piece. So it shouldn't be, do you want to achieve? It should be, what does the organization want to achieve and what are we going to do to help achieve that? Absolutely.
Wow. Well, we'll have to have you back again, Sam. I could talk to you for hours. It's so interesting. So if people want to talk to you, particularly organizations who want to talk about the stuff you're doing in organizations, how do they contact you? Well, LinkedIn is always an easy way to get in touch with me. I have a website as well, and I'm constantly playing around with it. So I'm not sure how long what I'm about to say is going to remain true. But my website is isaacson.uk.
That's nice and simple, as long as you can spell Isaacson. And one of the options in the menu, I think I've called it an organizational coaching maturity model. Okay. And so you can fill out a form. And at the moment, the way that it operates just because of the way I've set up the technology, it's effectively a self reflection piece, which will help you to kind of reflect on the different elements that I've included in there.
And then I'm able to produce a report, but the report takes me a bit of time to generate and to kind of get the actions in there. So If that would be of interest to people, then go and have a play with them and see what happens. Fantastic. Well, thank you. I'll put all those links on the show notes. Sam Isaacson, thank you so much for coming to The Coaching In. Claire, it's nice to be in your presence as always. Thank you. And yours. And everyone, thank you so much for listening. Bye-bye.
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