You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to The Coaching In. I'm Claire Pedrick and today I'm in conversation with Nathan Whitbread and Amanda Forecast. And this is an interesting one because I think sometimes it's useful for us to make meaning through a different lens. And so Nathan was talking to Amanda and pinged me a message and went, here's a different lens.
You should bring Amanda to The Coaching In. So I'll leave you to tell the story, Nathan. Yeah, sure. So hi, welcome. My name is Nathan Whitbread. I'm here with my friend Amanda Forecast and my other friend Claire. So myself and Amanda were catching up. We've got a bit history. We worked together very briefly at the National Trust and we were talking about inclusion and how we include people in outdoor spaces.
And where this conversation went was actually, it needs to be a bit more of a coaching conversation, i.e. we need to ask people and we need, because we can't include everyone from the off, we need to actually work out what they need. So we try and include everyone, we'll just ultimately potentially not include everyone. So that's what God is thinking. And Amanda's got a huge amount of experience in this area.
And I thought this is a really interesting conversation to bring here because actually I think it's got broader kind of implications for thinking about how we do stuff. So I was gonna introduce Amanda now, do want to say a little bit about who you are and where we go? Yeah, thanks Nathan and Claire, thanks for inviting me on.
Yeah, so my background, as Nathan sort of said, is with the National Trust and with the RSPB and organisations like that, where I've, I guess, moved into a sort of more specialism around developing visitor experiences. And now I work for myself as a consultant and working with visitor attractions, actually talking to them about how to develop their visitor experiences and that could range in from nature reserves to museums to historic houses, a whole range of places.
But at the heart of it is all about the visitors and the people they see. So, and I do everything from business planning all the way through to kind of operations management, but it's all around the visitors. And I love it and I'm very passionate about it. And hence our conversation when we met really, which was just to catch up and seem to evolve into. deeper meaningfuls about how you get to know people. How interesting, because of course we're hosts as coaches.
We're hosts and I guess, Amanda, as you consult for organizations, you're hosting a space for them to do some work and they're hosting you, you're hosting them. Yeah, so what are some of the highlights of what you talked about? Do share. Well. It's really interesting. mean, there's a real common thread that runs through a lot of the work I do. And it is actually, Claire, you're right.
A lot of what I do is coaching and mentoring of people that haven't had necessarily had the experience in the background that I've got. I've been lucky to work for organizations that are really invested in teams and, you know, you learn to be a good leader and all of those things. So it's actually really nice to be able to translate that to other people. So, but the theme that runs through it is really about putting people at the heart of everything. They do.
thinking about, you know, I'm doing a piece of work at the moment, which is all about the purpose of a visitor center. And the starting point is about, well, we need it to make money. And of course that's correct. But actually then we end up in conversations about how do you make money? How do you get people to spend money? How do you connect with them and engage with them and encourage them to want to be part of what you do?
And that's a real... really common to end up having those conversations. So yes, I'm working a lot with nature reserves and outdoor spaces at the moment, which is really interesting, because it can be harder to connect people in those spaces. But I'm also doing a really interesting project, working for the National Trust actually, on turning a derelict building into a visitor attraction.
And again, even though this is still a derelict building that hasn't even been signed off as an official space, we're still having the same conversations about what do you do with those people when they come through the doors? How do you get them to come through the doors? What do you have on offer for them? What do you have on offer for different people? So it's really interesting how much is different, but how much is similar. And it's really nice.
bringing those skills and experience to people and doing coaching and mentoring in a slightly different space. Outside by the sound of it. Often, it's often quite cold. Fantastic. So what were some of your insights, Nathan, as you were talking and as you're listening to Amanda now? Yeah, I think what we started talking about was really interesting because Amanda was particularly interested.
neurodiversity actually and just in terms of well how do we engage people who think differently in outdoor spaces and it's quite interesting because in one sense being outside removes a lot of the barriers because you haven't got this kind of overwhelm you've kind of got these different theatres and you know if you've you sort of when you spend time in outdoors quite often they're just quite tranquil and quite peaceful spaces but we started to I just remember starting to think about actually
That's my assumption actually. And we don't know if that's true for everyone because especially when you start to talk about families and people with different kind of requirements of a space, then actually we don't know how it impacts them. Because for some, it's a very different experience. And it got me thinking a bit about my family as well in terms of when we go to spaces, everyone seems to unite in the sense of liking being outdoors.
but we have these sort of thresholds of boredom and interest. And how do we manage that well so that everyone can have a good experience together is really important. That's sort of really what came through to me. And that's a tricky thing to navigate, I would say, in terms of holding that together. So that's kind of where I got to thinking about that, which is quite, yeah. It's quite, yeah, it just made me think quite a lot really. So that's a team coaching question, isn't it?
Everyone has different levels of boredom and interest. Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Just, yeah, just, so I'm just sort of processing all really just, it's just quite a lot to kind of think about. Yeah. And I think that's common across groups generally, isn't it? Whatever the needs of the family or the group and the important thing about providing an experience that works on many levels for many people, indoors and outdoors.
And I think we were talking quite a lot about asking people and observing people. We were talking about it in the context of being a leader and how you work one-to-one with. somebody and how you create a safe space for someone to be themselves and talk about their needs and how you do the same for a group and how you do the same for a group of people who you don't know.
And it was quite interesting about just the need to ask and observe and, know, intervene gently when you're not getting it right. And it was it was interesting because I would say probably places don't do enough of that. especially when they're really busy. And I think it's the best way of learning actually, sometimes it's just watching people and how they interact with your space.
And it's no different to, well, I don't think it's any different to being in a one-to-one scenario as a line manager or any employee. We apply the same, well, we should apply the same skills of gentle questioning and observation and I'm making it sound very simple. It's not perhaps as simple as that. but it was quite a thought-provoking conversation about the similarities and the differences in how you work with people.
And there's also the other dynamic that we touched on was one of the things about working with organizations that have a large voluntary base is also understanding the volunteers and the staff and how they enhance the place. And for my briefer experience, because Amanda's worked in the sector for much longer than I did, but You know, motivation's a really tricky thing actually.
So you've got to understand why people are there, what they're doing it for, how we can help them to bring their best self and to kind of be authentic and guess effective in the space. That'd be a good way to describe it, man. I don't know. Just it's quite challenging actually.
And, you know, and I think that that has lots of truths for different parts of life, but particularly in this space, how do you help individuals create authentic visitor experiences and helping them recognize that they are an intricate part of that experience. know, sticking a sign up does not create a good experience. Having a person there who's thought about it and wondered about it and kind of put a bit of their own self into it's essential. Yeah, that sort of really struck me as well.
And obviously that's true for all sorts of things we do. Yeah. I'm really interested in what you said, Amanda, about asking them, which is a... mantra of mine, as Nathan knows and our listeners know, but also watch. Because I think one of the things that we do in coaching is that we don't, we don't have an easy way of watching to see how people engage with the space that we create with them for them. Because we're also doing a lot of other things at the same time.
So so one of the things, in fact, there's a whole chapter in the new book about about how to use video. to be able to get a sense of how people experience us as well as how we experience people. And I think what you've just described makes me want to run back to the manuscript and add a little bit in. sorry. No, it's OK. It's not too late. It's OK. We're meeting on a good day where I still have power to change.
But there is something about, unless we can see... and sense how people experience the spaces that we're creating, we can't actually really know what's happening. think that's right. mean, we've done a lot in the past where we've been wanting to start new projects or open new spaces. And particularly when it's been linked to grant funding, we've not always been quite as good at it otherwise, but where we've spent quite a long period observing and asking. So watching how people use a space.
we've, you know, in previous organizations, we've... We've been known to follow visitors around, secretly to watch what they're doing and where they're pausing and create almost like a map of your site based on how a visitor uses it. And it's really invaluable. And sometimes people surprise you. And if you hadn't been observing, you would never know. And suddenly you've kind of got a new component within your experience that you would have never known you needed or wanted.
And I think probably the same applies if you're having the opportunity to take a step back and observe an individual in a situation. You know, and I think body language is so powerful and spatial expressions and sometimes they get lost because like you say, Claire, your brain's on to the next thing, isn't it? It's on to the next question or it's on to the next activity. But it is the luxury of time sometimes, particularly when you're running a visitor attraction.
people, they're small organisations, not many people, they don't have the time to do it. But you can always do some of it, you can always do some of it and I would really encourage people within this kind of area to just give it a go and see what they observe. Yeah, how do people experience us and our spaces? I'm thinking I'm a bit of a fan of makeover shows. And I'm thinking of those ones where they rip out the whole of the inside of the house.
But before they do that, they leave video cameras in all the rooms to see how long people stay in different rooms and how they use their space. But we can't, this isn't a diversion onto Claire's addiction to makeover shoes. I was just quite interested about it from your point of view. What's the most interesting thing you've noticed recently about how visitors behave in spaces?
Good question, because in some ways I spend less time in the spaces with visitors now, which is a really interesting thing in itself. You know, I'm almost, you have to be careful you don't lose the skills yourself. I was done a bit of work for Yorkshire Wildlife Trust and I was on one of their nature reserves. And I was giving, I finished the project now, but it was all about advising them on how to enhance their visitor experience as the reserve group.
So thinking about infrastructure as well as just the softer things. And I did quite I did do quite a bit of visitor observation there. And I think what was really interesting is the changing dynamic of a group. I think I think that's pandemic related. So on a nature reserve, where you'd have in your mind quite stereotypical audience, I think. And I think that has shifted. But I really noticed that it's shifting. It was really interesting.
on Sunday afternoon watching those groups, like intergenerational groups. So think that's one thing I've observed about people doing more as a group. And going back to what we talked about earlier, that need to satisfy a whole group of people that include included, you know, physical needs in the group I was observing. I think that's one thing. I think also that that that Again, I think this might be pandemic related, but that need for experiences that create memories.
People unity, think social media has a lot, in some ways has a lot to answer for, but actually in some ways it's brilliant in terms of giving people memories because there's those Instagram moments that everybody's looking for. there again, they're intergenerational. So I think that's something else I'm observing and talk to organizations about creating moments where people can come together and take pictures or whatever it may be. that moment could be just be to be, could be just a quiet space.
one of the things I talking about, particularly with outdoor organizations is just thinking about what those moments are and how you just create a space. And it could be a bench positioned with a beautiful view in front of it. It doesn't have to be a thing. It doesn't have to be something fancy. But equally, it could be something that makes someone stop and have to think, you know.
So I think there's things that I observed more than perhaps I did when I was really working right deep in the sector as a general manager. It's just that slight shift in what people are looking for. And I think, you know, people are time poor and cash poor, aren't they? So they want those experiences to be really special. So yeah, I think that's quite interesting. And that's outdoor spaces. I haven't done quite so much in the indoor spaces. of late, but I suspect it's not very different.
It raises questions for me about how do we mark moments? I think, you know, it's easy in an outdoor space to rush past things, isn't it? But it's also easy in a coaching conversation to rush past things and not to mark moments. Not that you're going to take an Instagrammable photograph in the middle of a coaching session. But I wonder what the equivalent of that might be, where we just mark a moment for a moment rather than rushing on. Yeah, it's interesting.
There's a fantastic book which I read quite a while ago called The Power of Moments. And it is all about visitor experience actually. And it's about how you just deliver great experiences for visitors by just doing little things. And I think it is, it's quite interesting that applying that principle to what you've just said Claire.
about in a conversation where you can observe a change in thinking or behavior as a result of the conversation you've been having or just in the way something might just click with somebody who's been finding something difficult and suddenly something you've said or a conversation you've had has just made that person, I just, get it. And I think we probably can all relate to moments where we've seen that in conversations.
I think the book's really helpful in terms of how you translate some of that theory about visitor experience into just general day-to-day observations. So I think, yeah, how do we create those moments? I think about it as a parent as well, you know, and apply it to, you know, not just rushing to the next thing. How do you capture those moments of childhood and things like that, but just gloss over? And sometimes they're not the obvious ones.
So... I think it would be good practice for us all, wouldn't it? To think just generally about how we enjoy moments rather than rushing onto the next thing, which we're all a little bit guilty of. Big stuff. Yeah, and if you rush on, you miss it. You know, one of the things that I've been observing is, you know, how do we support someone to notice what their moments are? And that might be on our face, it might be in the sound we make, it could be all sorts of things.
Rather than going, I think that was a moment. And as you say, Amanda, just flying through it. Do we need to walk back there as well sometimes? Just think about your, think about that visitor experience thing, you know. I just keep thinking about Anglesey Abbey, which is a site near us where Amanda used to be the general manager, but actually there's spaces in there that are absolutely beautiful.
I can remember walking, rushing past them and then sitting with our kids, we've been dragged back there because someone's forgotten someone or hidden in the tree that's probably more valuable than we imagine. But then you go back and you find a moment because actually, and it's this idea that, yeah. It is a moment, but you can still drift back to it. You can overshoot and come back. So yesterday on my photo memory thing was a picture of Anglesey Abbey. And one of my favourite ever moments.
Anglesey Abbey, which is a picture of my daughter and our favourite small person sitting on the mobility buggy. That's what I think is really interesting. we obviously, I worked there for eight years, but all of our moments will be different. And I think that's what's amazing about some of what I do and is that we're going against Saturday, funnily enough, and all those, we're going as a group, there'll be five of us going and the moments for all of us will be different. And I love that.
And it's really important, I think, to remember that as much as you can create as many moments as you like, many pause points, many components within a visit.
someone will find their own moment under a tree or you know walking along the river or whatever it might be it will just be different or they'll spot you know wildlife that nobody else will see it and I think that's a really important thing that to remember that moments are very individual even though you might be part of a group you'll experience it slightly differently so and I love that about when you think about creating an experience
Because I think people think it's a lot more complex than it is, actually. people naturally think they need lots of money to create it. And of course, that's lovely. can create amazing experiences with lots of money. But the point is you don't need to. You can just create these moments quite simply. It's giving people permission to have a moment, I guess, and find their moment.
Yeah, and you see a lot of it when you work somewhere like actually, and obviously, that was a really good example, when you work somewhere like that, and it's such a vast space with lots of different opportunities. You see it all over the place. You just observe people doing different things. And some people go back to the same place every single time. I remember walking, I mean, I was there for eight years.
And I remember walking around there quite late in my career there and going, well, I've never been to this space. I've been here all this time and I've never been to this space. And I love that. I love those surprises about the things we've been talking about as well. And you know, yeah, it's really, it's really interesting when you start to get into it. It's making me think about different moments I've had in places actually, which is quite a nice reflection.
Yeah. The other thing I was thinking about there was what we've talked about the moment is sort of like a group or an individual going to a space and, and then we have a moment. Yeah. But actually I think there's also this huge opportunity for the interaction of others. Cause I can think about when we've been in these spaces, actually some of the moments are formed by the other people that are there that we didn't even know were going to be there.
And we've had quite a few of those, particularly as a family, you know, that have been thoughtful, either bumping into people we haven't seen for 20 years or someone we've never met before, but, actually being in something quite special with someone who's kind of like this variable that you didn't know was going to be there. It's quite interesting and insightful.
And brings huge kind of like, I don't know, it's, you know, both insight and just understanding of a space in yourself, which I think is really interesting. I think it is. And actually, again, in my work, you talk to clients and people you're working with about how multiple audiences work. And often you will use the term segment clash, which is essentially different types of visitors coming together and how that works.
And you talk, you can talk about it in the user where clash is quite a negative. way. But actually, there is there can be a real positive interaction and thinking about where you facilitate the positive interaction, and where you mitigate where it could be negative. And that is an interesting conversation is I think someone's you're absolutely right, Nathan, somebody's experience of a place can be formed by the people that they come across within that space, another visitor.
And again, easily forgotten, I think about, you know, the impact of visitors on each other in a positive and a negative way. So it is a conversation that comes up, but perhaps more negatively than positively. You've just made me think about actually perhaps looking at that through a more positive lens. Yes, it's sort of, please tell me if I'm tangentializing too much, but it really kind of comes with a conversation I had earlier this week.
So I've been just starting to look at virtual reality and as a particular for coaching space. And I'm fascinated by, know, just pushes all my buttons for all sorts of reasons. But then when you get to the nub of some of the things you're trying to do, you're trying to create these different spaces for people to have great conversations. And the thing about virtual reality is obviously you're just there. You turn the headset on and you're there and you're in it.
But I wonder just thinking about what we're talking about is whether there's an even more powerful reason to physically take the time to go somewhere that is actually going to be quite unique. You we don't know what the woodland's going to be looking like. We do not know what the hills look like. We do not know what these wonderful places are to be like on the moment we go with that individual.
And I wonder actually if that gives us quite often the same sorts of things in terms of that scape, that space to be different. but with the the pre stuff of getting there. Does that? And the feeling, because in VR you don't get the scrunch of the leaves. And as we've been talking, I've remembered my other Anglesea Abbey moment, which is now a great family joke, which is that our small person, she was about two. She went, we must run away from the leaves.
And every time we see leaves blowing now, you know, she's 12 now. But every time we see, we see leaves blowing, we go, run away from the leaves. Because that was a moment. Yeah. And you wouldn't get that on VR, Nathan? No, definitely. We'd have to be, well, no, you wouldn't. And it would never be the same. No. We talk a lot about experiences, using the words like delight and surprise and wow moments and all of those kinds of things.
And actually, think, know, can maybe get somewhere with some of those, but I don't think it would ever get fully there. because those are the things that make something really special, aren't they? And they can come in a conversation, some of those things. So yeah, it's interesting. But then it becomes a different experience, I suppose. You use VR for a reason and it becomes a different experience. But the best experiences are multi-sensory as well.
Like Claire talks about the scrunch of the leaves or the smell of cut grass or whatever. That's the one we had yesterday. We went for a walk in the village and there was a real smell of cut grass. The sun was out, there was some warmth in it and it was evocative of summer's coming, you know, and even my daughter said that, it's like the smell of summer. And I think, you know, those multi-sensory experiences are really important.
They're really important because actually they open a world up to lots of different people. Because for some people that might be all they have. And it's really important. And VR. can never deliver that, it? Well, maybe it could in the future, but it can't now.
It's funny, I was saying it can, but it reminds me of a friend of mine over the road who's big into his, you know, like if you've seen these cycle things, you know, where you basically, so you don't, get a bike and then you have like all the screens around you so you can sort of cycle anywhere in the world. So the add on you can get is you can get this little blower to go in front of you that will blow the wind at different speeds, depends on how fast you go.
I know it's not quite the same, but you get the idea that this is kind of tendency towards the real, but you could just go to the real. I think that's one of the challenges in some a lot of stuff we're talking about is how do we actually stop trying, you know, use the tools where they're appropriate. Actually, if we need the real, let's go to the real and let's find the thing in the real.
Yeah. So Nathan, as we're talking, what insights are you getting about inclusion and moment making and welcome and connection with people who are neurodivergent in the coaching space. Yeah, I think for me there's something about backdrop, actually. I love that. And I didn't know we were going to go this way, but actually that intentionality about backdrop to conversations really matters.
So I was just thinking about a particular coaching conversation I had where, because I've been doing lots of stuff online and that's sort of where I kind of really got into the coaching space recently. But someone said, I've got to meet you because I can't do a conversation if I'm left, I've met you. So he traveled all the way down from somewhere up in the North of England to come to my house in Cambridge.
And then we just went for a walk around Cambridge for three hours and we coached and we sort of did stuff in front of King's College. But that experience of being immersed was so powerful in unlocking all sorts of things that allowed him to move forwards massively. And he talked about that. And I just thought that was it. And that's what I'm noticing about the spaces that Amanda's talking about, actually. I'm going, there are other spaces to go. I don't just need to walk out my front door.
I could do some really fun stuff here. And actually, I think it's what I want to do. And that's what I'm noticing. And isn't it easier to mark a moment for him when he goes, yeah, what did I think outside King's College? What was it that happened by the river? What was it that happened here? I did a face-to-face. coaching session I remember, and it was somebody who generates large numbers of ideas very fast all the time. And she said, how are we going to remember what I think about?
And I said, well, we'll work that out when we get back. We will. So we got back to the office and she said, so what were those, what were those moments? How funny is that? And I could remember them visually. So there was one where she's ban and round and then there was one in the woods where she did whatever and I said so there was that one where you turned round and she goes yes yes starts writing down scribbly scribbly because she because she could affix the memory to the moment.
Bookmarking Claire I'm hearing bookmarking there. Is that a technical thing? No it's just the thing I've just thought about but it's the idea of holding sorry about holding bookmarks for others.
But I think that what I was going to say is, you you think back to, you know, being the general manager of Anglesey Abbey and the leader of a team, some of those best conversations were one-to-ones done in the grounds, not sitting in an office, not sitting in the cafe, although that was quite interesting because we did lots of observation then, but, but you were walking around where actually you weren't face-to-face. You were also looking around.
It was a much safer space and a much more inclusive space. And, you know, as I'm listening to you talk, just thinking back to those, you they were good, you know, for everybody actually, wherever people's heads were at, they were always the best ones and they were a little bit like, I like your term bookmarking Nathan actually, because they were a bit like that and you remembered some of the points of those conversations based on where you were at the time, what you observed at the time.
I was just going to say there's an equality when you're walking around. Go on Nathan, what were you going to say? All I was going to say was just thinking about the coaching space actually. I know our responsibility is not to hold people accountable when they don't want to be, but we can bookmark in terms of notice things that we might want to say. When we were in this space, you talked about flying to the moon. Your aspirations have changed slightly. Is that still true or not?
don't know, whatever you want to phrase it, but that's that bookmarking because when people unlock... when they really unlock and they kind of, it's kind of like, is it a mountain top moment? You know, that moment where you suddenly, the height, mean, so yesterday, my mum and dad came to Cambridge, yeah? We went up the tallest mound in Cambridge Castle Hill. Has anyone been up there? It's just incredible.
You know, it's a hike up those concrete steps that are so, and the county hall they just sold off. There apparently used to be a castle there, but we walked up this hill and suddenly we could see the place. Like we'd never seen it before. It was just amazing. And it's... Because I mean, we've lived here for like 12 years and I've never stood that high up in, because nowhere's high in Cambridge, it's flat as a pancake.
But there's this one mound that you can kind look up, which is part of an old fort, I think it's the only bit that's there. Just this visibility, but then once you've got that visibility, I think particularly as a coach, it's a responsibility not to badger, but just to act as that bookmark to say, actually, at this point in time, you noticed that. Do you need to go back there to see that place again? Or have you got enough of what you remember of it to move forward?
Yeah. So when we started into this conversation, it was about neurodiversity. So how do we welcome, how do we really make sure that people feel welcome and included? I think we've talked about some of it. Some of it is around offering a range of options and being aware, I think, of some of the challenges people face and making it easy for them to navigate those. So facilitating, I suppose. And some of that will involve educating yourself about it.
And I think you know, Nathan and the reason I was asking Nathan about it is because I didn't feel educated about it. And Nathan is just discussing it with him and thinking about what I took away. One of the biggest things I took away from the conversation with Nathan was about family groups of where you've got different needs and how you accommodate all of those. I think a lot of it is about what we've talked about observation and understanding and listening.
But not, I think it's very easy as well. If you do not have confidence in yourself in understanding it and overthink it. Yeah. And actually then you're not delivering all of those things we've just talked about about moments and you've over thought it and you you know. So I think Nathan, I'm interested in your take on this. Some of it is applying the best practice that we know within what we do and just applying that. Because the best practice should apply to everybody.
those multi-sensory experiences, those space to breathe and be and all of those things are core to a good visitor experience. I mean, you might want to add to that now. Yeah, it was interesting because when you said that Claire, you did something. So Claire, for those of you that can't see the video, obviously Claire reached out to the camera because the camera went a bit wonky in terms of its focus. But actually as you asked that question, you reached out and I just thought, yeah, that's it.
Isn't it? You reach out, don't you? Yeah. You reach out and you say, well, actually this is what we're trying to do in this space. We want you to be okay, not to be okay. That's fine. And we'll work out what that looks like. And I love you. I don't know what phrase you just used there, man. I was trying to remember, but that sort of idea of that sort of stop zone, i.e. we've been to experience, there's now a space to quiet space to reflect or pull back. I think that's really important as well.
Just having that. I'm thinking about like a concertina within the space so you can have intensity of experience, but then there's always the option, a bit like the escape slide on that really steep hill. You can always go off onto the gravel if you absolutely need to, but sometimes just the knowing that that's there is enough. Because it's like the safety of things in life is that the fact we know they're there means that we don't always take them.
But the fact we know they're there just completely changes the way we feel about the experience. would argue. right. And I think actually you are within the visitor attraction sector and experience sector, are seeing people being more thoughtful and providing, you know, a lot of that is about providing particular sessions where people with particular learning needs. can go, or, you know, where the volume might be turned down, or there's just less people. And so there is more thought about it.
But I think it's thinking about how you do it within within space, you're not necessarily doing something different, you're just making it work within the space you have. And that's, you know, sometimes that's going to be hard, depending on the size of space. But sometimes it's going to be when you think about Anglesey Abbey and the scale of it, it would be much easier to create those moments within what you don't necessarily need to find something special.
But I think what is good is that we are seeing more consideration of these kind of things when people are planning their experiences. And I think there's also a bit of repurposing as well. I was always thinking back to the National Rail Museum, I don't know if anyone's been there, but they've got this wonderful train engine that's cutting off. They've literally cut it down the middle and they point to all the bits.
And I remember we were there with our children and one of our oldest child has got an autistic diagnosis. It was just quite interesting how this incredibly immersive kind of explanatory experience, which was just way over my head, just engaged him, but also engaged others. And then they also had thought about, actually let's have an area just off the back of it where you basically can have a coffee.
So you've got like, you've got people that are intensely engaged while other people at the same time are able to be with, but do something different. And I know that's a bigger feature to, and exactly, I'm not suggesting that that's repeated in lots of small places, but just that concept that you've kind of got the one thing going on, but you are allowing people to engage with it in the way they feel comfortable and not being afraid to go deep.
It makes it reminds me of a moment the other day when I was doing a group session and somebody switched their video off. And I knew there was a stop. They were they were taking a break from work. And I sent a message and said, really happy for you to have video off and sound off. And they sent me a message back and said, no, I was distracting the group. And I went, No, I'm saying I'm really happy for you to have video off and sound off, because that's working for you.
But as you've both been talking, I wondered about how do we, in one-to-one conversations, how do we let people know that they can have space to breathe? How do we let people know that it's okay to take five minutes out or 10 minutes out or to take a break? Because it feels like there's an assumption that because we've started, we have to finish. And where did that assumption come from?
Because that wasn't explicit, but by not being clear, we're being... we're implying that you have to stay the whole length of the time. So interesting. So many things to think about. Yeah, very much so. So if people want to talk about visitor experience, Amanda, how do they contact you? Well, my company is called The Visitor Business and people can find me online, thevisitorbusiness.co.uk or I'm kind of not contactable via email. which is Amanda at thevisthobusiness.co.uk. Brilliant. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. And Nathan, how do people contact you at the night? And the Neurodivergent coach, probably best on LinkedIn, but yeah. But yeah, so it's Nathan at the Neurodivergent coach. Obviously put it in the show notes, but yeah. Yeah. So please, if you've got questions around this or anything else to do with neurodiversity in the workplace specifically, or other conversations, then please feel free to get in contact.
Thank you. Well, Amanda Forecast and Nathan Whitbread, thank you for coming to The Coaching In. That set me up for the day. Thank you for inviting us. was a really good conversation. Thank you. Thank you. And everyone, thank you for listening and we'll see you next week. Bye bye. We look forward to welcoming you next time.