You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching In. I'm Claire Pedrick and today it's my pleasure to have as my guest, author and coach, Leslie Roberts, who's just written a book called Coaching Outdoors, which as you will all well know, I rather like. Leslie, welcome. Thank you, Claire.
It's lovely to meet you and I'm very privileged to be invited to be part of the podcast. Great. Well, you're very welcome. You need to know you're talking to a walking addict here. Tell us about your coaching journey and then we'll find out about the book. Claire, I want to dive into you being a walking addict, but I'll hold fire. Maybe we'll get to that. So my coaching journey, I probably for me coaching began before I even realised what coaching was, if I'm honest.
So when I was at university, I spent quite a lot of time up in the hills, up in Scotland, in the mountains. I was a member of the University Maintaneering Club and the degree I was doing at the time was studying to be a PE teacher. But when I went outdoors with all of the Maintaneering group, we spent quite a lot of time just pondering life, the universe and everything, inspired, I think, by lot of the natural surroundings.
And we had many nights under stars, possibly with a glass of wine or a beer, just mulling over conundrums and problems and challenges in life, really. And that was probably the start of my coaching journey, although I wouldn't have known it as such at the time. And then, yes, so then I worked with children in a secondary school. And that was definitely a bit more teaching than coaching, if I'm honest. There were some coaching moments, but the majority of that was teaching.
And then I moved from there to work with youth at risk in the highlands of Scotland. And that was 100 % coaching work that was inviting those young people to reflect on their behaviours, to reflect on their choices, to consider the options that they had to make different choices. And we use the outdoors as a medium for that work. And I loved it. It is the best and the most rewarding job that I ever had. I went a little bit more, I guess what people would call normal.
So I joined the corporate world. I joined Mars Inc. And I was with Mars for 16 years. And I had a number of different roles within the organization. But in the main, I was in a commercial role for eight years, and then a people development role for eight years.
And when I went into those people development roles, I started bringing back in all of that wonderful experience and inspiration that I'd had while working outdoors into the coaching and into the development conversations and inviting individuals and teams to step out of the office to do that work. And it was great. I mean, loved that organization, great organization to work for and a huge number of opportunities for me as a result of working for Mark.
So hugely privileged to have that experience and then started my own coaching and development businesses. I have two, I've got Brave Conversations and Coaching Outdoors and I've been continuing my coaching work through those forums these days. Wow. Wow. So what was the inspiration behind the book, Lesley? I think I just. I've started to realize I was doing a lot of work outdoors and I was I thought that was kind of normal.
People were starting to say, you do this stuff where you work outdoors in collaboration with nature. How do you do it? And a little bit like I think when people do something inherently or something that's natural to them. Sometimes that's quite hard to articulate. You just think, well, can't everyone do that or doesn't everyone do that? And I began to realise as more and more people asked, actually, maybe they don't.
And also I was aware that when I was working outdoors, I felt I was a better coach than when I was indoors. And I noticed the impact for clients and the being outside for them seemed to have. a deeper impact in terms of the coaching work we did. And so when I did my MSc in executive coaching at Ashes Business School and I did my dissertation on coaching outdoors to try and unpack some of that, try and help me to understand what was different for me, what was different for the coachee.
And again, whilst I didn't know it at the time, that was probably the start of the book. And then when we went into lockdown, I planned to run two coaching outdoors programmes for coaches. I was planning to run full day programmes in person and do them in the groves at Ashes Business School because it lends itself beautifully to coaching outdoors. And we couldn't do that because Covid came along.
And so we changed the programme to being an online programme, which was quite a leap of faith, if I'm honest. And ironic, given that I was blethering on about the benefits of being outside and here I was delivering an online program in collaborating with nature. But I found a way to make it work and it was really impactful. And in that journey again of creating those two programs, that also was in part me writing the book. So, yeah, I think that's probably where it began really.
Yeah. So what is it that makes you a better coach by being outside? Gosh, there are so many different facets and I think everybody's story is different. Every coach's story is different, but there are some, I think, key commonalities from the research that I've done and the coaches that I've had the privilege to work with who joined me in those coaching programs. There are some key themes. So one of them is about, as coaches, we seem to be more natural.
What comes... to us or comes through us, arguably, just come more effortless in our coaching questions, pauses, creativity. It seems less process focused and less cerebral and more instinctive. So it feels lighter when working. in collaboration with nature and in particular outdoors. I'm quite clear there are, but we can work in collaboration with nature virtually. We can work in collaboration with nature on the phone, both outside but different locations. And then we could be together outside.
But certainly outside and together seems to be, you could say it was an ultimate optimum, that would be it. But the others work well too. There's something about walking, isn't there? Because we often invite coaches to walk and coach because you get your timing right. Because they only look at you if they want you to speak and if they don't want you to speak, they don't look. So suddenly a load of questions just go in the bin or in the gutter or in the ditch, don't they?
I think it's more spacious. It's more spacious for the coach and the coach. There's none of that horrible... We're staring each other as you and I are now, staring each other over a screen. You're side by side, so it's collaborative and you're on the journey together. So think that's the coaches notice that spaciousness and the creativity, that momentum and the movement. know that that makes us more creative and coaches feel that and coaches I've spoken to talk about, you am I?
You brought in this exercise, I've never used it before, but I gave it a go to see what would happen. They, they are also braver. It seems less risky, less intense. So there's less risk if you offer something and, it may resonate or not for a coachee, but it seems less of a risk to offer it. And you can follow your gut, can't you? I, I remember coaching somebody who's very extroverted and we went for a two hour walk and she's probably listening. So you know who you are.
I'm not going to talk about your name. And there were three or four moments on that conversation where some really deep insight happened, none of which were shared with me really, but each of which were associated with a very particular movement that was, you know, very visible things. So one of them, she kind of held her hands out and spun around in a big circle. And then there was another, you know, they were all like that. And we got back to the office.
The deal was that we'd get back to the office in time that she could then capture what she wanted to remember. And she said, well, what did I say? Well, most of what she said, she said to herself and not to me. And I said, well, there was this moment and did a sort of spinny thing. And she goes, yes. And she writes it all down. And then I went, and then there was that looking over the field thing. she yeah.
And what was really interesting about that was she was able to actually recall the things that mattered by recalling the movement. And what a beautiful description as well of nature was coaching in collaboration with you. There were three of you in that relationship. Yeah. So in those moments where she was looking over the field or had her arms out, there were more than the two of you there, which is a likeness that comes for coaches of somebody else being in it.
And for the coachee of these anchor moments of things that they are seeing or smelling or feeling, might be warmth or cold. and they can be anchor moments too. It's beautiful, Claire, I love that. And the coach stops writing notes, thank goodness. Absolutely bliss. Claire, talk, I realize it's your interview, I shouldn't be asking questions, but I'm desperate to ask about your walking. You said you do a lot of walking. I do a lot of walking. Every so often I go for a very long walk.
I've just done the Camino in Spain. Amazing. And I'm just writing something about silence and remembering that 20 years ago I did the Sinai Desert. What incredible experiences. Yeah, because there's learning, isn't there, outside? And in fact, there's a bit about both of the walks in the new book that I'm writing because one of the things about silence is that it's the complete absence of sound.
But in most walking, in most places outside, there isn't a complete absence of sound because there's still other noises going on. And they're noises that we can tune into. So, yeah, so I've moved to the countryside and I walk all the time. Wonderful. And there's a real richness, I find, self-coaching in our own walking. We don't need to be with a coach and we don't need to be coaching. Exactly.
out for a walk this morning and something as simple as I looked across a field and something looked undone. And I was drawn to the undone-ness. I'm curious about why that had resonated with me. And what I took from it, and somebody else might have taken something very different, what I took from it was a loosening of something. And I recognize that within me, at the moment in my journey in life, there is a loosening. And it's really lovely. And I hadn't, I don't think consciously aware of it.
And today I had a little... moment that nature offered me. Wow. It's a gift that nature, she's there. On Saturday I went to a festival of ideas and there was somebody there who was doing a session on mindful looking effectively. And it was really extraordinary. I've asked Trish, she'll come on the podcast so that we can talk more deeply, but it was the idea about really noticing what's going on in nature. And of course that develops our skills, doesn't it?
In terms of noticing other things in our coaching conversations. Absolutely. And everybody notices something different most of the time. And you and I could look at the same thing or do some mindfulness of being outdoors and see something which resonates very differently for you than it does for me. No right answers. It's wonderful. Yeah. So what's your hope for your book?
My dreams for the book would be realised if as many coaches or line managers and line managers picked it up and took something from it which was in service of either their development personally or in service of the development of the people that they work with. That's one dream. And the other is to engage people with nature and the natural world. Because we know, well, certainly through the research of Derby University, there's the nature connectedness framework.
And one of the strengths of that is if we fall in love with nature, we we have more of a desire to protect it. And I really don't. So the more that we can interact with nature in different ways, through building a relationship with it, through having a sense's connection with it, and my words not theirs, falling in love with nature, we will protect it. And I guess that's the ultimate aspiration is that it creates more momentum around protecting the planet that we live on.
step one is about the culture and the way of having an enhanced relationship and some personal development. And the the New Economics Foundation have got their five steps to well-being haven't they, their five ways to well-being that include being active which may or may not be outside and taking notice is one of the things that they say is a is a way to well-being so. Absolutely.
And there is so much wellbeing to be had if you take coaching aside, just being outdoors and walking or even sitting in nature. If you can't walk, but sitting in nature, brings that lovely wellbeing benefit which both coach and coachee feel and experience from being outside or from looking out a window.
And there's other research, isn't there, around, and I'm looking to my right because that's where my window is, but even 20 seconds of looking at a natural view as a well-being boost versus me looking at a computer screen. Yeah, getting out of our heads and into our spirits really, isn't it? Absolutely. So what most surprised you when you were writing? can I go? That's a question I've been asked before.
I think about the process of writing and I have written some articles for some magazines since. Has been how much I learn every time I write. I learn something new, even if I'm writing about a topic that I'm familiar with. When I, I always think, there's a thought I haven't had before. there's a thought I hadn't had before. And I'm always wondering when I'm writing, is this making sense? So I'm sort of trying to see it from a third person perspective as well. Putting myself into others shoes.
So I think it's just a continual learning is probably what surprised me most. I wasn't expecting that. great. I would agree with that. We're just finishing another book and one of the issues is no more new ideas. End of. no more new ideas than anything, but I've just another one and it's really good. And I also, I don't know about you, but I also think, gosh, there's so much I still don't know.
That also comes up, and particularly in the field of coaching outdoors, that whilst in, on the one hand, it's very ancient, on the other hand, in the modern world, it's quite new and there is little and lots of people want evidence, research, numbers, data. There's so little modern research in this field. When I'm writing, think, gosh, I'm writing this down. Are people going to think Leslie's just made it up?
And I think, gosh, the opportunities there, if people chose to research in this field, there are opportunities to do that. Part of me is slowly drawn to that and part of me wants to push against it because I think, well, that's not what nature does. No, just open the door and go outside. Nature doesn't say, a tree, I can't grow here because nobody's done the stats on the soil quality. Let's get us on with it. And there's a rhythm, isn't there?
I've worked with a few people where we've chosen to walk and talk. And the rhythm of when you get to the corner or when you get around the block again or whatever it is that actually brings a lovely pace to the conversation. And there's so much more data available to the coach when you recognise if you are meeting a coachee outside and you are walking, what pace are they walking at? Are they walking fast? Are they walking slow?
Do they have their, you know, are they connected to the environment around them or are they in their head and very absorbed with the gigantic to-do list, for example? And that's is more data than you'd have ordinarily together inside and the opportunity to influence that pace without saying anything. Exactly. Which, thank gosh, so multifaceted. And it's a much easier way to engage in partnership, isn't it? Because you're actually doing something together. Yes. Yes, I'm side by side often.
Where do you normally when you're outside Claire, where do you normally work? So just walking and talking with people. In an urban environment or? No, well, I live in the country now. And I and I lived in a garden city, which was a town in the country before. I have a, I have a, do steal my business plan because I don't think I've got time to do everything that is in my head.
But you know, one idea now we live in the countryside would be to have people come do an Airbnb for the weekend, have a coach, a walking coaching session on Friday, a Airbnb and relax all weekend. And then we have another session on Monday. I just think I'm not going to do it because that's not where my life is now, but I think it'd be a great idea. Yeah, I agree.
So somebody gets a nice break and they get a session at the beginning of their thinking process, which of course would have started when they got on the train or in the car. And then another one kind of 48 hours later, as they begin the next bit of their journey, when of course they'll keep doing the work. but it's like a retreat, sounds beautiful.
Do you know, I worked with somebody for a lot, many, many years and he would always choose to work face to face because there was always at least a two hour journey from where he began to where we met. And the whole plan of that was he would stop for breakfast and he would start getting into his... into the mode of over breakfast and then he'd get back in the car on the train and then we'd, he'd get there early.
So whenever I arrived, he'd always be having coffee and then we'd have our session and then we'd have lunch and then he'd, then he'd go and then he'd have tea on the way home. So by the time he'd finished his coaching session, which was an hour, he'd have spent seven, eight or nine hours engaged in the process, which is just such an important thing, isn't it? If only every coach could do that. Yeah, and some people just go straight out the meeting into the next one without a breath, don't they?
And then they lose the learning. I completely agree. I completely agree. And in the world today, that is, I suspect, what the majority of people are doing. And it's one of the benefits of being outdoors is that there is a transition from the office or the virtual meeting. There is a transition from that to the outside. or environment, which I think really helps.
And then there's that transition back, whether it's back to the office or back to the virtual meetings or back to home life and all of the things that that has. Those brackets on either side, think, gosh, your previous client, my goodness me, they had the best model for it. I that's optimum, isn't it? But I kind of want to say to people, if you've got 90 minutes with somebody, you don't have to be working for 90 minutes.
You could do a kind of 15 minute coffee thing at the beginning and then you could leave them in the room at the end of the hour. So they've got 15 more minutes just to do what they need to do to get in their head to go back into the workplace. I think we, I don't think we use coaching enough as a process. It's such a great publication. So even if you take, I mean, you were saying, did you walk around the block?
As I'm thinking out loud, you if you're walking around the block with somebody, what you do is you make sure the coaching ends as far away from the office as possible, not on the doorstep. Yes. Because then they have to walk back. And again, that gives value, doesn't it? Absolutely. Yes. And even if it's round the car park, so as to cope some people around in slow, which is not the most glamorous. place in the world.
Forgive me listeners if anyone is from Sloan, on the industrial estates and I would always try and finish at the opposite end of the car park. Exactly. So that journey back again, it was quite a big car park, that journey back across the car park. yeah, yeah, it really matters. It really matters. So if you were going to say something to our listeners to really inspire them to think about coaching outdoors, what would you want them to hear? I would say give yourself a gift.
an hour and a half's walk or time in nature on a day. When you have the time after that hour and a half just to do a moment or two of journaling and reflect how you felt before you went out and how you feel coming back and if you had any light bulbs or insights while you were on that walk. would be my invite. invite would always be start with you and your connection with nature and see where that takes you. I would add Siri is your friend.
Do you know, I can't tell you how many times I'm talking to Siri on my phone. Tells you what brand I am. In the middle of a walk, because I've just had a really big insight and somebody's walking their dog coming in the other direction and they go, sorry, what did you say? You to go, actually, there's nobody at the other end. It's just me and Siri who's recording it. I it. do take a folded piece of paper when it's just me on the walk. I take a folded piece of paper and a small pen.
But do know, I often find I don't use it. I often take them if I'm doing a self-punching walk. Yeah. For that purpose. Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise you spend the second half of the walk saying what was it I had to remember? I meant to remember this. I always offer my clients actually a small notepad and pen that will fit into their pockets. And most say, no, thank you. But I have had one or two who say yes, please. And then sometimes use it and sometimes don't.
But I have one who we made time each time that we were outdoors to stop and walk. And if it's a hardback notepad that sort of fits in the palm of your hand, you don't need to be sitting. If there's nowhere to sit at that moment, you can still write on the hardback notepad. Very clever. I know she found it really valuable because that was her hurdle to having our coaching conversations outside. She really, really, really wanted to go outside, but she said, I'm really attached to my pen and paper.
I said, well, for goodness sake, let's take pen and paper with us. Let's not let that be the thing that stops us. And it worked brilliantly for her. And it was so such a simple solution. Of course. Brilliant. So your book, Lesley, is Coaching Outdoors, The Essential Guide to Partnering with Nature in Your Coaching Conversations by Lesley Roberts and published by our friends at Practical Inspiration. Indeed.
And if people want to contact you and talk more about Coaching Outdoors, Lesley, how do they get in touch with you? my, so I am on all of those social media channels and I'm sort of slightly... quietly saying that because it's not my favorite cup of tea, if I'm honest. But you can find me if you literally just put in Coaching Outdoors. I am on Instagram. I am on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and LinkedIn.
I'm under Leslie Roberts as a personal profile, but I'm also under Coaching Outdoors as the business profile. And you can drop me an email. It's info at coachingoutdoors.com. Perfect. Thank you very much, Leslie Roberts. thank you everyone for listening. You've been at The Coaching Inn. I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been talking to Leslie Roberts. Bye-bye everyone. Bye-bye.
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