You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn, where we have a jam packed table, which was initiated by an email that Joe's Noel sent me about Stokers. And it's been a while since we've had a conversation about Stokers. And I have to say, I get asked questions every single day. So a lovely bunch of people said they'd like to come and talk about it.
So Joe's, what was your question? And then let's find out who else is in the room. Hello. Yeah, my question was the E in Stokers. And I wanted to, how I wanted to kind of think about how we can bring power and partnership into the Stokers questions, which Stokers I love, changed my life. And yeah, something about asking people about being an expert. Okay, interesting. And just give us a line about you. yeah, Josephine Knowles, in coach in learning. Life long.
I currently work for Beyond the Streets. We work with women facing survival sex in the UK. Brilliant. Tango addict. I'll just add as well, I think most people know. And, and, and regular in our pub. Thank you, Launipapa. Wow. Drinks are on me. Well, there you are. What's not to like? So let's find out who else is in the room. Pavlo, hello, welcome. This is your first time in our pub. Yes, thank you so much for having me. I'm Pavlo Chiridnychenko.
I'm an experienced external auditor, but also inspired facilitator. internal and external coach and look forward to collaborating with all of you and learning something from each of you this afternoon. Brilliant. Thank you, Pavlo. And of course, we'll learn from you too. So Liz, we have two Liz's. Let's have Liz with an S. Yeah. Hello. Thank you for having me.
I'm a very new coach actually, and I have had the privilege of training with 3D, which means I've never known any other way to do it apart from the stoker's way really. So that's great from my perspective, but it's lovely to hear from other people who may not have trained with 3D. Great. Well, welcome Liz and Rosemary. Hello, okay, so I'm Rosemary and I too am a relative newbie to coaching and currently training with 3D coaching.
Work with the Church of England, but use my coaching, offer it to young women of colour just entering the workplace for the first time. So that's me. Thank you and welcome. And Liz. Hi, thank you. It's great to be in the pub. So I'm Liz Price. I'm from Full Friend Coach and I also work in the NHS. I've been coaching for 10 years. This year is my 10 year anniversary and I've been in and around 3D for quite a long time. have. With your training and master classes and all sorts of wonderful stuff.
And Liz. Liz has also been to the Coaching Inn before and has been talking to us about unlearning circles. Yes, yeah. So I particularly work with women who feel isolated and marginalised on their leadership journey and that unlearning circles is a way of working predominantly with white people, their racism and unpacking that in a safe space. Brilliant. Thank you. There's all sorts of interesting conversation to be had today.
So, Jo's, tell us about the E in Stokers and power and what you're thinking. Wondering. Yeah, wondering, definitely. So I remember thinking when I first read Simplifying Coaching and did my transforming conversations, why isn't the E something? It's always a little one, right? When we see the acronym. And one day I remember thinking, this person is looking to me for advice giving and I wanted a way in the contracting to name that in a non weird way. So I started playing with the question.
I see you as the expert in your life. So what's my role in this? And interestingly linking the E and the R together and naming that they are an expert in their own life, which we talked about many times in 3D life. It brought out interesting conversations. It brought out, I just want you to tell me what to do. And then you have a conversation about that. Or even if you're on an ongoing basis with somebody, I still ask it, but maybe I use the R as show, how should we do this today?
So it was just a kind of proposal seems too formal, but you know, it was a case of saying naming, you know, I see you as the expert in your own life. So what's my role in this today? And it just, For me, it felt it met a need for that power and partnership to be named at the very beginning and something to refer back to. So yeah, thoughts. Love it. Let's see what other people think.
I do remember when we were doing the Stalkers at Henley course where I was trained, I had the question inside me why EE is so late in the process because I felt that EE should be the actually the icebreaker. and the beginning of the contracting conversation. And I remember I had such a strong feeling that I was almost disrupted in the class and say like, it doesn't make much sense to have E that late.
But to your point, Josephine, I think I agree that it's in my view, E is that the bounding force of this really strong trust building and why now and why is we are in this period of the day, this particular week and why we're talking about this particular topic now. And that's why, know, E in my view, should be used earlier in the process, but also it's almost that coming back to that E and fine tuning and refining it even tighter, what is the essence of the work we're doing and what is...
And that, you know, higher awareness will hopefully take us forward together throughout other, you know, how outcomes and other abbreviations of the, the Stalker's model. Yeah. I love how everyone makes it their own and Henley have made it their own. I should probably name that the E isn't a word because we couldn't agree. So everyone in the 3D team had a different view. And the reason it's a small letter is that it doesn't then look as though it's been missed out.
It doesn't look as though we accidentally forgot to put it in there. But I love essence and I love expert. Rosemary, you look like you're about to say something. Yeah, I'm intrigued because I saw the E in the beginning of... my journey with 3D coaching and in the context of the conversation that we were having anyway, to me, it was just obvious that's equity, that's balance. It was just obvious.
And we had talked about the adult to adult, it's an adult to adult conversation, not one person being led by somebody else. As that was repeated throughout those conversations and that training and practice, the E would always remained as equity. I love expert in your life.
And I'm going to use that, Josephine, because some of the women, some of the young, I want to call them girls because they're stepping into the area of work, the area of young women, the whole idea of them being in their own life to somebody in their late teens, early twenties. For some of these young women, it's like mind blowing. You could almost see, I'd like to use it just to see the look on their face when I say it.
But I've always gone back to the equity that I, you and I are on the one, we're on the same level. And but I do I do love what I've heard at the moment. So I've logged I've logged expert and I've logged essence and I yes in my toolbox. Thank you, people. Let's keep going. So you love that it's just not quite definite. Liz? Which one? Either. Shall I go first, Liz? Yeah, I'm intrigued because obviously we've always been taught avoid expert.
There is no expert apart from the one who is coming with their own stuff to think about. So I do love that E and I'd love it to be a big E if it's going to represent them as the expert. But it is a little And actually I was going to come in and it sounds if I'm copying, but I actually that equity that evenness, the balance and I'm picturing that ball that you have that you're both holding it in balance in any conversation. It's neither one nor the other. You hold it in the middle.
And I love the fact that it therefore appears in the middle of the actual. An acronym. Is that the right word? So I think, think, just being you've opened up something brand new to me and I love it. I absolutely love it. That's brilliant. But actually I'm with maybe it's because we've trained with you, Claire, but that sort of balance that, that we don't hold the power in this conversation at But, I really love this idea of naming it because we've got to name it somewhere.
And the role question, how are we going to do this is partly because we're actually saying because we're not going to do it my way. And as you say, Josephine, if you say you're the expert in this and then you say, how are we going to do the work? It has a very different power and because it makes the role question a lot, lot clearer. And we can't underplay the fact coaching is so like other conversations and it's so is not.
We've got to find a way of getting into it so people completely understand. I'm just finishing off the next book at the moment, which kind is the prequel, I guess, to simplifying coaching. And I'm writing with a lovely Italian coach called Lucia Baldelli. And one of the things that we're talking about, again, is the thing about people giving us power and how they often say to us, I want you to tell me what to do.
So the coach goes, I'm not here, listen to this, I'm not here to tell you what to do, you bad person. You've completely misunderstood what we're here to do. So in trying to equalise the power, what we've actually done is we told them off. And we've done exactly the opposite of what we're trying to do. Sorry, I interrupted Liz. Price, what are you thinking? Well, I'm loving all of it, which is why I love being part of these conversations. And I've used E in the past about energy.
It's a way of asking people, where are you at right now? And incorporating what does challenge look like today? Because it might be different from session to session. But what my brain is smacking off with is that idea of energy and equity leading into role. So if we're able to have that conversation about energy, where am I at today, what kind of level of challenge am I ready for, alongside this is all about equity and partnership. So then be able to have the conversation about that.
And I know we've had conversations in the past about what is this role? People get confused when you ask them what's my role in this today. But actually, we've preceded it by those sorts of things. Hopefully that makes it easier for us and to know what they mean from Yeah, I'm loving it. Or at least it opens up the conversation. Exactly. Because that's what we're trying to do, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.
But it's also, think, applying stalkers and in particular E at the chemistry session can actually inform person of whether the coaching is the right intervention for the challenge. And to your point, Claire, that you later almost save your energy and time from justifying I'm not an advice giver or I'm not here save you from this or that or the other or come and do your homework, right?
So think if we shift stalkers predominantly from how the structure of the session is powerfully delivered to the, actually you can, you can do mini -stalkers as a part of chemistry session and clear the air much quicker in the process of the, you know, pre -contracting for the session or contracting for the relationship that I think makes it even broader and more powerful. Yeah, because it is odd. It is, it is really odd that somebody is paying us.
I mean, not necessarily, but in many cases, they're paying us to not be the expert. And they're paying us so that we will there will be equity We won't be the expert and that is very strange. I'm wondering those with experience in the room at the table, do you find making how you go about making that statement or emphasizing that sense of equity and they're the expert and so forth. Do you find that you have to alter that slightly in the how you say it depending on age or gender or?
Interesting question. How does that work for you, Joze, in your context? It seems like a kind of slightly radical idea that you would sort of name, particularly the women that we work with, who have kind of experienced repeated trauma and multiple disadvantage, to name that they are an expert in their own lives. It feels radical as it is. So I've only really got experience of how I've used it and how I've tested it out with people.
So I'd be interested to hear from other people, but it seems, it seems that there's this kind of, what do I know about my life? You need to help me, you need to fix it. You know, and this power imbalance is so inherent. And I think as coaches, I think we're often prone to advice giving and it cuts across that as well. And so, yeah. Back to anyone else, I would see, for me it works with women facing multiple disadvantage, but what about others?
I think I didn't say what I was specializing in, but my particular area is grief and bereavement. And it's a time of people's lives where they do feel really vulnerable and actually haven't got a clue. Nothing prepares you for it, even if are aware that somebody is going to die. Nothing actually prepares you for that moment.
And whether it's pre -death or post terminal diagnosis or post death with a family member, I think the feeling that they feel so vulnerable to actually tell them that they are the expert is just transformative in itself, actually. And, you know, it, well. It just works wonders.
You don't actually often need to do the whole Stoker's questions, but to tell them that they know their stuff and their journey is unique, just as everybody's journey is unique, whatever they're coming to you with, is I just can't believe how powerful it is, really. And that's the nature of coaching, isn't it? But I think particularly when you're dealing with people in a vulnerable heightened state of emotion, It's amazing.
Yeah, and I'm just thinking so particularly around chemistry calls and discovery calls, whatever you like to call them these days. the part about describing what is coaching, what isn't. And people get up more. I always start with saying, well, mentoring is this. It's a master apprentice type relationship. where one person is looking to another person as the expert. And that's not coaching.
You know, we might use the same sorts of skills or techniques, but the frame around the purpose of it is quite different. And I'm not the expert in your world. are. And testing with them what it is they want from a relationship at that point, think is hugely valuable. And also explaining how. coaching and mentoring is not the same as counselling either. And again, they might use similar skills, but this is very different on the nature of the relationship.
Yeah, I'm just thinking, Rosemary, about whether I use different techniques for different sorts of... It is mostly women that I work with and I actually don't know that I do. The examples we might think about might be different. That sort of high level thinking, is this coaching, is this mentoring, is this counselling that or after, what is That's sort of the same for me. I don't know if that's useful. Thank you.
I ask because I'm very conscious of a dynamic that probably you all experience at some point or another. So when I'm speaking to these young women and they're sharing their experiences with me, you start off with this equity. And they're like, wow. And you remember now these young women have just left formal education. And our formal education for the best women in the world does not encourage young people in how to think, but what to think. And so they get this cake, this box.
cake in a box that says, is yours. And you get to decide and I'll journey with you. And ecstatic. And then afterwards like, maybe you should hold it. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, it's, it's, yeah, it's yours. And then constantly having to go. go back to that, that sort of, not pull me and push you, but sort of that, this seems like it's really big, it's really grown up.
making, I'm doing my own thinking, making my own decisions, carrying the consequences of that and the potential consequences of that. And it's like, doesn't feel so much like a gift, you can take it back. And I'm just wondering how that dynamic plays out in your various circumstances. Because for me, I'm wondering, is this a consequence of that educational conditioning, or is it a wider social conditioning when someone comes into your life with particular skills?
whatever those skills are, they are quote unquote the expert and therefore the instinct is to like, there you go, tell me what to do with that. Or is this something more of a almost a process of unlearning that starts quite early This morning I was in conversation with somebody who had been on a webinar with me two weeks ago where she'd said, I don't think this will work with 16 to 18 year olds. And she was going in to do some work with some 16 to 18 year olds that she's worked with over time.
And I can't remember what I said. But this morning she said to me, I did And it worked. She said, I went in and instead of saying this is what we're going to do because I believe that they weren't going to be able to work it out for themselves. I went in and I said, what do we need to do today? And she said, the only bit of development learning that I need to hold onto is it works better in smaller groups, but it worked. But it is weird. You know, and it is really weird, isn't it?
As you say, Rosemary, it's weird for people who've been conditioned. This is the right answer. And I will ask you a question because I know what the right answer is and I want you to tell me what the right answer is. And I will tell you how to pass all your exams by how to give the right And now we're asking questions going, we really want to know what you think, because this is your time. It's very odd. Pavlo. Yeah, I think it's fascinating.
And a couple of insights came to my mind, to my brain in the last couple of minutes.
The first one was around the systemic awareness as to where our clients belong or currently are and meet them where they because I think as a coach, sometimes there is, I certainly have this blind spot that I'm working through to kind of try to get them off the problem island towards the solution islands sometimes, but kind of giving them space and respect and meet them exactly where they are based on whether it's social or educational conditioning or a broader systemic view of their...
work life or holistic life, I think that is pretty powerful and that's where kind of that essence or expert versus your fully resourceful and complete individual can be pretty powerful by working in that systemic field. And I think it works both ways, right? For the client to be aware of the system where where he or she believes or they really belong, but as well as to the coach itself, right?
To understand where the system, where the coach is currently at and the limiting factors there can be either helpful or less helpful for the clients. I also wonder, and it might be too far of a stretch, but it sort of speaks of unconscious bias to me as well, and the othering of people. So if we start with, I fully expect you to be the expert in your own life.
You know, with that parity, there's something about that makes you think that through in terms of saying, actually don't know for and that unconscious bias that we might have, whether it's racism or misogyny. I mean, I wonder whether for us as coach, it forces us to think a little bit deeper about some of that in asking that question, because do we really believe that? What does it mean to be an expert in your own life? What does that mean for me?
And I think it does, hopefully in the training, push you a little bit on that. I don't know. That's a wondering that I have. And a wondering I've got is, let's see if you're making me reflect on a coaching conversation I had this afternoon with someone who's thinking about taking a redundancy and is thinking about retirement as an option. I've got my words muddled.
I'm wondering if there is a learned helplessness because, in terms of what you were saying about people being right and I want you to tell me the answer, sometimes in my experience I think it's less about an answer, but it's more about you're going to take me through a process and you have to tell me what the process is and I'll just follow along on your process, which is great for, I wouldn't call it coaching, but for those
styles of interventions where there's a very well spelled out, this week we do this and next week we do that. But the kinds of coaching that we talk about, and particularly within a 3D learning environment, is not that. And the process is about opening a container safely, stuff in the middle, and closing a container safely. And that's it. And I think In my experience anyway, that takes a bit of getting used to.
So someone who hasn't been coached before in either at all or in that way, it can feel a bit punky for the first couple of sessions. But once they know I'm going to do the, so what would you like to think about today? And they just go for it. And I would say that's true for men and women. for young people, old people, white people, people from the global majority, people who work in the NHS, people who work outside the NHS. I would say that's a fairly consistent experience I've had.
Thank you, Liz. I've had an insight, and Josephine, I've had an insight with regard to the, you are the expert in your own in the context of the young women that I have started to be working with, in that that might not necessarily be a helpful statement for them now. principally because most of these young women are second generation migrants to this country.
and would come from what I call, what I would describe as traditional cultures where they are not encouraged, they're not encouraged to have their own opinion at this stage in their life, you The family has decided, the aunties have had the conversation, and this is the next step. This is the expectation. This is what you are needing to do. And if that is part of an element of your conditioning, I would need to be very mindful of that. And I would still talk about the equity.
I would still talk about the equity and go back to the equity. But now I am wondering if the expert in your own life might just be a little bit too much. for that reason. And here is the dynamic as somebody who is second generation. So my parents moved here and I was born and raised here.
How I communicate my thoughts, plans, feelings and so forth within the context of that family and extended family, whether they blood relatives or not, I had to learn to be very different than how I express those same thoughts and feelings outside of that context and be very careful not to mix the two. fall. fear, concern of misinterpretation. So if I take the communication process that I've learned outside the family, in the family, would draw a less favorable reaction.
I will no longer be an approach, you know, the good daughter. But outside of that, I am engaging if I use that technique. I'm engaging, I'm an interactive, I am alert. So I had to learn to code switch. and knowing. I think if I had coaching on the code switching when I was growing up, life would have been so much better. So many unnecessarily thought conversations could have been avoided. But I do find that in some of the conversations I have had, that how do I explain this to family.
How do I explain this? And in that sense, I'm just thinking now, that sense being there being the expert in that context and saying, well, actually you're the expert in the context of that family. What are the words that resonate? and get them to come for it. there is a, and I don't feel that the whole concept of code switching is just.
within that particular group, think that to a certain extent, whether it is overt or covert, whether we're even conscious of it, there is a level of code switching that we all do. And it has different consequences depending on what it is you have to change and in the context in which you have to change it. I am very aware of my code switching.
And I'm also very aware that that code switching has enabled me to move in certain work situations that I would not otherwise have access to because I present in a particular way. And that has a tendency to offset the fact that I am a woman of color. So that has a, doesn't happen all the time, but I'm always aware that I might need that skill all the time because I never know who I'm going to engage with within those circles and opportunities.
And it's about getting these young ladies to think about how they can use that very dynamic skill to. their advantage in a way that enhances their communication, their confidence and their conversations. while still respecting the authority systems in the family. Exactly. Yeah, I'm thinking now about, probably in the contracting conversation about the question around what does being an expert in your own life mean to you and drawing out those sorts of things as part of that.
One of the things that I've been doing for two and a half years now in a contracting conversation is actually having a good chunk of that, actually talking about our similarities and differences, both me and the person I'm working with, to help break down some assumptions. And also it's fantastic for building. And it's also fantastic at stopping some of the guru stuff that Claire hates, even though she's my guru. Because it makes me normal and it makes the other person normal.
And in that space together, we could celebrate our differences and we can also know where we might collude on some of our similarities. And I'm just wondering, I didn't think, hadn't really thought about that in the context of E in Stokers. But I mean, it is all about equity, really. It's establishing that relationship as a partnership. Hopefully, I don't establish that I've got more power than the other person. That's the aim.
But yeah, I suppose I'm just wondering what people think about that in response to essence, expertise. Some other reason that occurred to me as Rosemary was talking, actually, I'd like to bring down was actually validating everybody's experience. You know, actually, they are a product of experience, whatever that is, but it's not actually letting them be bound by that.
Because that is often what we find people think, well, the other word I used was expectation, the expectation that other people may have of me, whereas actually turning it around and just saying, well, you know, if the world was your oyster, what would your expectation of yourself be in that situation is something quite liberating.
Yeah, it just occurred to me, Rosemary, as you were talking, that actually these young women need to be free to sort of see their future as something possibly different. And I know they have a tight rope to walk along that. But actually they don't need to be defined by that, but just to sort of hold that in balance too. Because their life will be different. Well, it will, they're second generation. And third generation are coming through as well. I'm raising third generation, it's no joke.
I'm sure it's not. It's no joke. then so I become a translator sometimes. Jeez, when did this didn't come in the baby manual? But yes, it will be different. But different is not necessarily negative and is a wonderful layer. It's a growing growing outside of the potted plant that would have come with being the children of first generation. You know, it's like that. I tend to use the image of a spider plant because I just love them. I wish I could have dozens and dozens of them.
But one of the wonderful things about them that's always fascinated me as a child is that they have little babies that kind of like sprout out and they're all part of that plant. but you can take that baby off and put it in a smaller pot or wherever and it will grow an exact replica of what's, but it'd be different. It's a, it's a rep, it seems like a replica, but it's that's slightly different. And I tend to use that.
I think, you know, I think it was a couple of years ago, I was experimenting with it and I had a spider plant and I gave the girls a little, each of the little baby things in little pots to help them to remember that they will be different and that different is okay. But it's really important that in order to become that person going forward, it doesn't mean that you are disregarding. And it's your launch pad, And that's always to be valued. But yes, yes, it will be different.
And that goes back to what Pavlo said earlier about the system, because we're talking about, we're coaching someone, aren't we, in their family system, and their family of origin, and everything that's come before in their history and their ancestry. And then we're also coaching them in many other systems. Wow. What a most amazing conversation, everybody. What a joy it's been to have you here at the Coaching Inn.
I guess as we begin to wrap up and before they shut the door of our virtual pub, I guess my question to you is, what's the most significant question that you're taking away to sit For me, I guess it's just two quick reflections rather than question and maybe second part of it would be a bit of a question is the first one is a reminder coaching is very contextual, right? So understanding the context of coaching is pretty powerful. And, you know, it's not gonna be what exactly you expect.
It would be always different and listening and really staying in the moment and meeting the clients where they are. But then the second, question I would offer to my clients more and more is. instead of saying you're an expert, I would say who would you like to be in this particular session?
And shifting that power in a subtle way without giving away answer because they might want to be expert this week, but they want to be somebody else in two weeks time and having that fluidity and freedom of choice. For them, it's something that I'm definitely taking away after this discussion. And thank you very much, everyone, for leading me on this path of reflective journey. Well, thank you. What are others taking Liz?
think for me it's trying to find a way to wrap it all up into something concise. But it is about the word you used, Liz, around expectations, but within the context of someone being an expert in their own life and equity and being how do we get to be explicit about that in a partnership. lots of these all of them. you just brought another one in just as we're leaving. Explicitness. Thank Liz. Yeah. It's really hard, isn't it, to know.
I mean, I think the fact that we must, it's that power sharing, isn't it, that Josie first of all mentioned. It's the absolute importance that there is no power grab by the coach. And therefore the reminder that the expertise lies with the thinker is so important. But yeah, I found it fascinating as well listening to Rosemary and thank you for that.
That was really just enlightening actually to hear your perspective on things because I think so often we take it for granted as white privilege middle -class people perhaps that things aren't always the same for everybody. So actually that was really helpful and enlightening. Thank Rosemary, what are you taking away?
Context, reminding that the context is going to be key and that will change, especially with the young that I have been working with and hopefully will continue to work with moving forward. I started out initially thinking, Expert, that's a brilliant question. I'm going to offer that and then partway thinking maybe that might actually be a problem question. That might actually be a problem one.
But now I'm somewhere where in the middle where in my listening, in my listening, discerning whether or not any one of those E's is the best E to use. Is the expert, you're the expert in your life going to be hindering or helping the thinking and conversation? Or is the, is a conversation based on equity. Is that going to be the most helpful statement to make?
And all of that would very much depend on the context person who's doing the thinking and Yeah and I yeah thank you thank you for that I went on this little whirly gig ride and it's been fun but thank you that's been Josephine. Yeah, I think I'm taking away lots of food for thought, but I think probably the big thing is that what does it actually mean to be an expert in your own life? And I actually find it really easy to think about other people. But what does it actually mean to me? What?
When do I maybe block that? So I think I'm I'm thinking about that for myself as a as a fellow human. So yeah, thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you all for coming to The Coaching Inn. What a great conversation. So you've been in the good company of Liz Price, Liz Weybrough, Pavlo Cherodinchenko, Rosemary Davidson -Gotobed and Josephine Knowles. Thank you all for listening and thank you guys for coming. Bye bye.
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