You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of The Coaching In. And I'm in conversation with Andy Den, who I, he did a really interesting post on LinkedIn about listening, which somebody tagged me in and said, Claire, you'll be really interested in this really interesting post about listening.
So I looked at Andy's flip chart picture and sent him a message straight away and said, will you come to The Coaching In and talk about listening? And he said, yes. So Andy. We meet. Yes, yes. Coming in off this wintry sort of windswept world of winter up here into your pub. How very nice it is. Well, thank you very much for coming. Just tell us a little bit about you and the journey that got you to being very good at doing very beautiful flip charts.
OK. Well, I'm now 58, so I think my I'll start 30 years ago, I was a very successful executive in an international business, being promoted up the slippery pole and aware that it wasn't what I really was looking for. I stumbled across a Greek island where I found voice workshops and poetry and body work and meditation, mindfulness. And some people there said, you're a healer. And I ran away from that immediately.
It was a word that was far too loaded with my own misinterpretations and something that I didn't self -identify. And so I ran away for about five years. And in my early thirties, I decided to follow it up a little bit in London. So living in London and one thing led to another where I left the corporate world and I was moving to Malvern to become a manager of a healing center in West Malvern called Runnings Park at the time.
This was in 1997. Thinking I was trying to take successful business skills to the then flowering. complementary health industry. The flow was completely different. I started bringing complementary awareness and holistic thinking into business. And I was running workshops, various different things with teams, using Shakespeare and walking on the Molven Hills and all this beautiful stuff.
And the curious, the thing that frustrated me the most was teams were deeply touched by their experience for a few days. but their old habits were waiting for them at their desk when they got back to the office. And so in 99, I was looking for something to help people maintain their commitment and the hard work of change. And that's where I came across coaching as a way of supporting teams and executives on that journey of change.
And I was one of the first ever participants of what was then the Coactive Coaching Schools, Coactive Training Institute, as they, called Training Programs in London and progressed through that program. By 2000, my wife, whose French was pregnant, she wanted to have the kids in France. So we moved from Malvern to France, to a country where I couldn't speak the language. I was becoming a father for the first time.
I was building a coaching business from nothing and going through certification and various other activities. all in the same time. And most people in my world, all with the best of intentions were saying, now get back into the corporate world. You're going to be a father now. Give up this idea, go, you know, get a proper job again. But I had a coach who I spoke to for half an hour, once a week on the phone.
And this wonderful man called Phil Sandow, who was one of the co -authors of the Coactive Coaching book. yeah. Was there half an hour. every Friday afternoon and it was a space where I knew I was talking to somebody who believed in me more than I necessarily could believe in myself at some times. Because the months would come, seriously, you know, a little, a pregnant wife with a baby due any moment, trying to build a business.
And there'd be times when I'd be so afraid, I wouldn't know how I'm going to pay the rent next month. But I kept going. because there was a coach saying, yes, you can keep going, believe in yourself. So one step led to another, one referral led to another, one piece of work led to another piece of work. I built a business without a website.
Well, it was before websites, this was 2000, 2001, you know, I didn't have a business card, didn't have any marketing material because my, so the saboteur, that inner critic, that voice that tries to say it's not good enough. was always all over any material. So the only way I knew to let people know what I was doing was to knock on doors with people and lean into the adage that people do business with people they know, like and trust.
So I built my business over years through referral and word of mouth. And now, you know, some years later, So 22 years later or so, you know, running a business that's called Living Teams with some great coaches, working with executives and teams, helping organizations transition their cultures from really what was the culture and still can be a command and control top -down culture to where... people are more agile and fluid and working collaboratively in a much more connected space.
And so, guiding people into what that's about. And one of the real skills that helps that is everybody learning how to listen. You know? And so, of course, as a professional coach, we listen well and we ask good questions. these are such fundamental human skills. You teach these skills to people who are in living relationships with each other. And it naturally creates the environment for one another to help each other on the team grow and believe in themselves.
And so that's, yeah, that's in a nutshell, that's my journey. Wow. Feeling lots of fear and being it anyway. Yeah. Yeah, because that book came out around that time, didn't it? So here I am sitting at the bottom of the Malvern Hills. Right, yeah. Right now, talking to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful part of the world. Yeah. You must have trained just after me because when I did my training, CTI didn't have a training in London. So I trained with Coach U in the 90s. Yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah. A booty, a booty. A booty, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we trained at the same time. Yeah. Did you go to the coaches, International Coach Federation Conference in Switzerland? It was in the Alps 2001, 2002 or something. It's one of the few that I went to. I went to one in America and I went to one of their first ones in Europe. But yes, so yeah, I must say I trained a little bit after you.
I did become the first European, in the language of Coactive Training Institute, front of room leader. So I was training coaches around Europe. So I was the first European front of room leader for them. And so introduced and trained lots of coaches around Europe. between 2001, 2006, I stopped because my business was growing. My children were growing. I now have two daughters, they're 22 and 19.
And we were involved in a local Steiner school in France, which is a very holistic approach to children's education. And I wanted to be involved and it was a chance for me to... be involved in something that was French because all of my working language was in English. And I've always spoken English to my wife and my kids, even though we live in France, to help the children always be bilingual. But yes, I wanted to help the school grow.
So I gave up the work as a sort of front of room trainer for coaching and coaches. But I love the fact that the whole industry's... continues to grow. I think it's really important. There's a tremendous need for people who have the muscle to walk beside others as they go through life's changes. And, you know, I think we can only do it in authenticity where we have walked that path ourselves.
I love the hero's journey as a metaphor, you know, how you have to... be willing to leave the comfort of the known world, of the village you're in, and step across the threshold, and then meet friends and allies along the way, but ultimately the path will take you to the forest, and you must go into the forest, and you can only go in alone. If you follow somebody else into the forest, you haven't gone into the forest. I love that.
And that's an allegorical story that I see keeps playing out in my life. you know, constantly as I try and just become a better version of me really. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know where to go now. There are so many places to go. I saw a thing this morning on social media where somebody said, wouldn't it be different if peace talks were called peace listens? yes. Yeah. And isn't that a lovely thought? What a lovely thought to imagine. that peace is listening to us.
That this ephemeral, invisible, intangible presence that we could call peace, that's always there, waiting quietly to be invited in to the conversation, to the relationship, that peace always listens. I just played with the words. Yeah, absolutely. And if we went into engagements with the intention of listening. Because what I love about that is that we're all looking for peace.
So at some level, we're all looking for connection, we're all looking for meaning, for contribution, for, you know, yes, we have other needs. all of us have a need of certainty of some sort. We have a need of uncertainty and you know we all have a need to know we're special in some little way you know but connection and progress or growth and meaning are really important and I think in there we're trying to find some peace.
You know, so it was in my meditation this morning actually was all about, you know, it's kind of yoga or Buddhist orientation, but how behind all the clouds, behind all the things in the sky, all the thoughts, all the feelings, there is this backdrop of the blue sky, which is always peaceful. And a lovely peace listens into the peace talks.
Yeah. So before we forget and end up talking about something else, which I'm sure we will, because there's so many places we can take this, just tell us a bit about the Chinese characters for listening, which is where I met you through this picture. Well, one of the pieces of work I've been doing is with an international organization whose headquarters actually are in Japan. and they have operations all around the world. It's heavy engineering.
I don't think I should mention their name because I haven't asked permission to talk about clients, but it's a global organization. And because they're headquarters in Japan, I also have friends in Japan who are coaches. And so we, and the audience, it's a leadership development training really for next generation leaders.
And we wanted to create something that was both me representing a sort of European orientation and a friend of mine, Miyuki, who's a professional coach representing Japanese orientation and to dance together. And we kicked this off a few years ago in Hiroshima and Miyuki also had trained coaches in Japan. in coaching skills. And she brought this model of Chinese characters that they use in the Japanese trainings about listening. And it was fascinating.
So in the Japanese language, the word is kiku. And it's the same word for each of these different symbols. And we know the symbols themselves are thousands of years old. which for me is fascinating, right? So the first symbol is one of an ear, but with gates on it and the gates are shut. So this represents, I can hear you, but I'm not really listening. You know, my ears are here, but I'm not listening. The gates are shut. You know, it's quite a powerful image, isn't it?
The kind of, you know, the lights are on, but nobody's home kind of thing, you know. And then the second picture has far more complex characters. It has a much bigger picture of the ear and then it has a plus sign and it has eyes and heart. So the whole representation of that is my ears are here as are my eyes and my heart. And I'm listening. with all of my senses to you.
And that's the image that Miyuki explains when they're training coaches in Japan, that's the image they use to help trainee coaches understand that's listening from that place with everything. And then there's another listening or word, kiku, which is the same, and they have one sort of image that... is kind of things crossing like this, arms crossing, and it represents combining, mixing, like combining our forces. And the other image is power. So it's about combined power.
And that's rather like when we listen together, the collective power we combine together is much bigger. than when we're not doing that. And so if you imagine a rowing boat and everyone is rowing together, the combined power of that movement is much more than if they were rowing without being synchronized. So very interesting, isn't it? Same word, different characters. I can hear you, but I'm not listening. I'm using my ears, my eyes, my heart. everything in support of you.
And the third one, we're listening in a way where together we're more powerful. You okay if we share this picture? Yeah, we share the podcast. Yes. What really strikes me as you're speaking and as I'm looking at it is that you can see it. So you can see the difference as well as hearing it and sensing it. And that's that's hugely powerful. Because that first character with the gate in the ear, they're all separate. Whereas that third character with the combining the power, they're connected.
Yes. Yeah. And there's flow in the character, whereas the character of the earlier listening is quite angular. Yes. Yeah. It's very interesting, isn't it? I also had, so I learned that a few years ago, and then I took it, I was running another year of this training. So a different group of people. Miyuki wasn't beside me to draw it in her beautiful, Asian artistic way. So I sort of drew a version and I knew it wasn't working, but there were some Japanese participants in the program.
So I asked them to draw it, you know, because they just know how the movements work. And they said, so these are executives, not people training as coaches. never seen these three characters compared in this way before. Wow. How fast. And so even the fact in their own language of them seeing executives of 35, 45 years old, senior executives seeing these things, it just the fact of them seeing their own symbols shifts things in them, which was fascinating to observe.
And they said this middle one, The one that we talk about eye and ear and heart combined. This is also the way we talk about listening to music. We are completely taken away by some Bach or whatever it might be that takes us. That's also how they talk about that. Fascinating. It's all of that. Each of those conversations that you've described, Andy, gives a different kind of insight. What do you hear? What do you see?
Well, it's really interesting to hear the people when they were drawing it themselves, because you weren't as fluent in the drawing as they were. But as they drew their own version of it, they saw something they'd never seen before. Yes. So there's been a sort of journey through deeper listening, even... from that day that your colleague drew it and then you drew it and then somebody else drew it. And each time it feels like there's another layer of learning, all from one word. Yes, isn't it?
And we know as coaches that the art of listening... Is it an art? I don't know. Yes, it's artistic, the facility of listening, but it's like there's no end to the nuance and the gifts of creating a space where people feel heard. The gift you give to others. We trained some executives just the other week up in Sheffield. in some basic listening skills, you know, and asking, and of course what comes with basic listening skills is fundamental curiosity to find out more. We can't help ourselves.
It's in our DNA, you know, it feels like anyway. And just giving people these basic skills that although basic are not simple and their applicability never ends. You then debrief this experience where you know from feeling, listening to what's going on in the room, in the training room, you can feel the connective spirit and the connective tissue being woven between people. You then ask them, what was that like when you were talking about something and your colleague was listening to you?
What was that like? Wow, really good connection. I feel really cared for. That is consistently over 20 years of me doing this with executives and training, you know, people who are in stressed out, busy jobs who don't think they've got any time to stop. And whoever go into these trainings to start with, they're always resistant, always negative, always thinking what's all this about?
I know how to listen, don't be so, you know, and yet when you get them to receive the experience of being listened to. how they feel cared for. And I think it's... huge piece of the puzzle. Even when the listener doesn't speak but is just deeply present. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a deepening. something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've taught listening skills for 30 years and I was a bit blown away by your picture and even more blown away by you describing it. Thank you for that.
You're very welcome. Yeah. Very, very nice to explore this with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm very curious about the music one. So I'm just writing another book and there's a bit in it about the music of conversations. And now I'm kind of really curious about that middle kiku. Yeah. Yes, it's like, and like as with our coaches hat on, you know, learning to be conscious of what am I listening for? and listening for the alignment, the attunement. I love your way you're looking.
It makes me think about if I'm listening to a conversation, there's one place I'm coming from as a listener when I'm in a one -on -one coaching. But when I'm coaching a team or when there's at least two people or more in a conversation together, then what am I listening for? you know, and you're listening for some kind of harmonic, listening for some kind of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Music is really interesting, isn't it? Because it has some language.
I'm not a musician, but I do understand that if I'm playing the harmonica and you're playing the guitar, the two sounds when they are in harmony. create a sound that neither the harmonica nor the guitar can create by themselves. So that harmonic, I think that's what we're listening for. And I really do believe part of our job when we're working with teams is listen for the harmonic of the humanity, not listening for the progress against the goal or the task. and not listening for the facts.
Right, exactly, yes. Because they know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And listening for the edge, listening for, read a beautiful book recently, How to Tell Your Story So the World Wants to Listen. And it's by a lady called Bobette Buster, which is a great name. And she's, somebody who has spent her life helping script writers, film writers write film scripts so that they're interesting, you know, films are interesting and move people.
And she talks about, you know, how we're listening when she's getting to know people, she asked them to share a story about their lives and she's listening for the thresholds. that person has crossed over. So if you think of that hero's journey, and somebody says, I, you know, I moved to France, you know, when my wife was pregnant, she wanted to have the family in France. So then it's like, so that sounds like a threshold. What was it like to cross that threshold?
And so listening, so I think that's really interesting. That's where I'm trying to practice for myself as I... continue to hone my listening skill is trying to listen for the threshold in the story that somebody might share and get curious about that. Yeah. Noticing. My goodness, Andy, we're going to have to have you back. I've been delighted to. If you're the judge and you know what you're listening to and if it's helpful. That's great. Thank you.
Thank you so much for just giving us a little taste of that. And what's really interesting is that some of what you've just said connects with guests that we've got coming on in the next few weeks. So we've got somebody who's going to talk about kind of writing your script so that you can share your story. And also we've got, we've got one of my favorite writers on listening, I think has just agreed to come also in the next few weeks. So I'm not going to spoil by telling everyone who it is.
Yeah, yeah. I'll tell you when everyone else has left the pub. Yes, when we have our lock -in. Indeed. So before our lock -in, Andy, how do people get in touch with you if they want to talk more about your living team's work and about listening? Can I give you an email address and a LinkedIn or would you just like a LinkedIn? What works for you? So I'll put your LinkedIn, Andy Den, in the show notes. Yeah. What's the email address people can use? Andy .den at livingteamsrock .com Brilliant.
Thank you so much. And Andy, thank you for your time today and for traveling through the virtual airwaves to our English pub from France. Yeah, it's very nice. It's very nice being there. You've got a lovely roaring fire going in the background. Indeed. Indeed. So. I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been talking to Andy Den at The Coaching In. Thank you, Andy. Bye -bye, everyone. Bye -bye.
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