You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who are engaged in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching In. And in fact, this is the beginning of a new series for the new year. So a very happy new year to you. I'm Clare Pedrick and this week I'm in conversation with my colleague Su Blanch. Hello, I'm Sue Blanch and yes, I'm here in conversation with Clare. What a joy.
And we're not sure who's hosting, by the way. So together we'll just do it. But we thought it would be interesting. We had a conversation about, you know, what is coaching from a really sort of basic standpoint? Why would anyone really want coaching? And we thought that maybe we could have this conversation, this thinking out loud and that you might be interested in listening into it. So that's what's happening. We'd love to know. what you think about it.
So please do tell us your thoughts and what else you would add to our conversation about what is coaching. So I guess to kick us off, Claire, I notice sometimes that when the subject of coaching comes up, some people are really uncertain about what that means and they can get themselves in knots about what that means. And I sometimes have the sense that that they've got a very, very different idea of what coaching is from what you and I and our listeners think that coaching is.
So, yes, just to think it out loud. And I wonder, Claire, as we're thinking it out loud, we kind of imagine perhaps that we've got someone with us in our in our rooms who doesn't know what coaching is, who might have maybe even experienced something that was called coaching, but actually doesn't really do the thing that we're doing. Yes, and let's see if we can help describe it. so that that imaginary person is clearer by the time we finish our conversation. I can see a version of her. Can you?
In my mind's eye, yeah. And she went, everything you're talking about is abusive. Right. Because you're talking about pretending that you're letting somebody have autonomy in their thinking stuff when actually you're going to tell them what to do. Yeah, because actually they've only come or they've only been sent because there's a performance deficit and the coaching needs to fill the gap. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And that's a painful place, isn't it?
It was really good actually that she fessed up early in the day on that one because we were doing a training thing and by the end of the day she didn't think that was what coaching was at all. But in her organization, that's what people were experiencing. You have a deficit and coaching will fill the gap. Yeah. And it sounds like your person didn't get much of a say in that. No. No. And it's you do it this way. So really done too. Which is kind of what we do.
when you're teaching me how to use Google sweep properly. I'll just check out that that isn't abusive, Claire. It's not abusive. But you know what I mean? When you go, actually, what you need to do is this. Because I have a massive information gap. Well, I'm not that massive now, but that's because I've been well taught. But that is a version of teaching, isn't it? It's. It's saying there is an information gap. Did you know that? Have you tried? Would you like to try? I suggest you try.
Actually, you really need to try. Yes, yes. Yeah. And also in that circumstance, you know what's going on. There isn't any anything hidden or or controlling about that. It's very clear, isn't it? So, with your person, and there are many more people like that, I'm sure that, you know, people listening will have in mind as well, someone that they may have worked with and who's experienced this, that an organisation uses coaching, almost using the word as a softer version of remedial work.
And so therefore what they get in that is something which is very different from coaching. And they might walk away from that feeling really put down and what they will have experienced is someone just telling them what to do under the precept of this is coaching. And a really strong, overwhelming feeling I'm getting. that somebody thinks I'm bad. Yeah, right. And that I'm deficient, that I've got something I can't do.
Yeah. And actually, I think we have to be honest that some of the people who are recommended to have coaching through us or through our listeners have come with a version of that. And it's terrifying. And also, Claire, some of the people that they may have gone to might also believe that that's what coaching is.
Yes. So, so if an if organisations are using people that say they're coaching who actually that isn't what they're doing, it's unsurprising, isn't it, that your person and other people will have had this experience and then and then we'll come out of that with a really negative perception of what coaching is. One of the things that I often say to coaches is we need to recognise that this is like lots of other conversations and it's different from.
And I wonder what we see when we sit in the seat of the person who's arrived or is looking at the conversation. Yeah. As I always we... you know, in training context for coaches, you look at that through the lens of the coach, actually through the lens of the person. Yeah. So one of the things that I notice is, you know, we call the person we're working with the thinker. But I might be in an organization where actually thinking has never been something in my gift.
And when I have done thinking, I have not been encouraged to do that. Or it may be that just over time, it's not been something that has been expected of me. And then they arrive with somebody like us and we say, what would you like to think about? And they go, what?
Yeah. Yeah. So there's something about how do you make the whole kind of climate a space so that people understand what they're buying into and that you can explain it in a way that is clear and easy to understand and that they'll see it as a real benefit. Yeah, yeah.
Because actually, Because I think it feels quite unlike some of those other conversations that they might have been having, whatever they are, whether that's a mentor in conversation or with a manager or with a therapist or whatever other conversations there are. Of course, the only anchor points they have is other sorts of conversations. And so... what we would describe a coaching conversation as just feels completely out of, you know, completely out of my experience.
That I might come into this conversation and be truly heard and that it is my conversation where I can choose where I'm going to move to. how this is going to work, what an outcome looks like, I get to choose that. Surely you've got KPIs for me, right? That's, I think sometimes, Claire, I've seen a kind of, when we ask those contracting questions, there's a bit of fear in people, because suddenly everything is up for grabs, rather than.
something which has been predetermined and looks a certain way that I've experienced many times before. And as you said, predetermined, you know, KPIs and predetermined for me by the other. There's also, and it has to have been predetermined by me and I need to have done so much prep that I've got this conversation stitched up before I have it. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
And, and, And certainly that sense of, I'm really sorry, I haven't had an awful lot of time to do all of the thinking before I get here. You know, I hear that from time to time and I want to release that person from that pressure that they put on themselves that they have to have done all of the thinking. So this bit, now this coaching conversation is just a rehearsal actually of what I've already got sorted out in my head.
But of course that's so much safer isn't it Claire if I've got it all sorted out in my head before I come and sit in front of you. I can feel safe. Yeah no risk. No risk no. I don't have to look as though I don't know what I'm talking about. I know. And of course, the purpose of coaching is that they do come and talk about what they don't know. Yeah, it's so upside down, isn't it? It is so upside down. It's really countercultural.
There's a whole load of stuff, isn't there, about how important it is that I'm an expert in my stuff and that you don't see my chinks and that I might need some exploring. All of that. I don't know. It feels like. we're entering into a different land. Yeah. Well, we're entering entering into a land where there's an equality in the conversation in that two humans show up and that you don't show up with your expert hat on. We don't show up with our expert hat on.
So we know how to facilitate a conversation, but what they're talking about, we're not expert in at all. Yeah. So all the power is in a different place from where you normally expect it to be. Yeah. And we're going to be vulnerable. You know, the thinker is going to be vulnerable because they need to do some thinking. And the coach is going to be vulnerable because they don't know how to do it. Yes. So, you know, how do we sell that? Because... What we're saying is...
There is so much vulnerability in this and that the power dynamic looks different to what you might have encountered in different conversations. So it will feel weird, at least to begin with. And nobody's going to talk to anyone else about it. Yeah. I'm thinking about that podcast that we did the other day that went out in December with Dom. police chapter. And he was talking about a space to be heard and to think things through where there wasn't any line management accountability.
And it wasn't going to then come back and bite you because you said something to somebody who had authority over you. And what therefore a different kind of encounter this is. Yeah. because the person that you're talking to in coaching doesn't have any line management authority. If we're talking about pure coaching, they don't have any line management responsibility or authority over you.
And they're not going to do anything with what you say to them apart from use it to facilitate the conversation with you. Yeah. And usually what we share in a conversation, part of why we're sharing it is because it's going to be used somewhere else.
So it's going to be used as part of my performance appraisal, or it's going to be used as part of my promotion, or it's going to be used as part of my disciplinary, or it's going to be used to form the strategy for the organization or any of those things. But suddenly, the only purpose of putting the information in between us is that the thinker can process it. which doesn't answer at all the question that we were started with, which is how do you talk about this with other people?
It just is the biggest space for the dilemma. So that's, so I think that language that Dom used is really useful, really do, that kind of describes this space. But if I'm thinking about, you know, anyone in their, in their work or outside, wherever they are, on the streets, wherever they are, what would make them want to have that experience? I'm just wondering about what is the trigger that makes someone who hasn't experienced coaching before think, I might give that a try.
Because so far, some of our language has been a bit scary. I'm just thinking about the beginning of a sentence. What would it be like? If, yeah. Or what would it be like when? Yes. What would it be like if we're giving away all our ideas here? What would it be like?
What would it be like if you could take those ideas and thoughts that aren't really well formed at all, but are somewhere lurking inside you and you could really be able to articulate, articulate them in a way that's going to help you move forward. That would be amazing. That's a bit, that's, I like that. What would it be like if... And I wonder if that's also really hard to imagine for some people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I was thinking there's lots of what would it be like if.
What would it be like if you could sit down and talk to somebody and they wouldn't interrupt? that you would feel completely heard in a way that would help you understand stuff that was yours in a different way. I mean, all of this is really saying let's stop describing coaching from our side. Yes, absolutely. And start with where they are.
Yeah. Do you know, I also think Claire that sometimes the, I'm so I'm going to describe this in my sort of language, you know, the kind of the knots and the tangles that we kind of create for ourselves, the things that are difficult to think through and all the barriers that we have and that we. put up with or create for ourselves. I do think that some people just assume that that's the way that life has to be. And so... enable it, you know, so, so they just get on with it. Does that make sense?
They just sort of carry on. And the things that we dare not say. Yeah. We dare not say. Yes. And we just will not say them forever. But what we know in coaching is that when they've been said, they get a lot smaller. Yeah, that's right. Well, you and I both know that, don't we? We, we, you know, do that a lot naming the thing and go, look, It wasn't that huge massive thing, but it is a thing. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that you and I and the rest of the team need to sit down for an hour one day.
and start what would it be like if, because I think we'd come up with some really interesting insights. Yes. And I think sitting in the seat of the thinker who doesn't yet know that they are a thinker, but with the catalyst of good coaching can recognise that in themselves. I mean, Wow, what a gift, right? But starting off in that seat of... you know, confusion, whatever it is.
I've got a kind of metaphor of being stuck in treacle and so on going through my head, you know, that, but starting there and working our way into looking at coaching from that perspective. might really help us as coaches and our listeners, Claire, to be thinking about what it is that we do and the difference that coaching makes. It's funny, isn't it? Because you want to catch people in that before they arrive moment, which you only really ever get after they've gone.
When they say, when I arrived, I didn't think this was going to be very useful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. Yeah, that's right. That's the point at which we need to ask the question. But of course, at that point, they can't answer it because there isn't enough trust in the process and there isn't enough trust in us to be able to say that out loud because they would think that what they were saying to us, I don't trust you.
Yeah. And they don't know that what we're actually going to hear is I don't trust this process. Yeah. Because what would it be like if you were in a dialogue with somebody who didn't make it all about them? Mmm. and actually was only there in service of you doing some good work. Yeah. And once again, when that hasn't been experienced, it's difficult to see it or imagine it or... Can I just say that... 30 years on. 30, whatever years on.
It is a more sophisticated question, which is a good thing, right? Yeah. Yes. And I think the thing we're up against now is that coaching has got so many definitions and looks like so many different things rather than people don't know what it is. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. It's definitely language, which is very much around and about. Yeah. It's just that that that word. has many, many different meanings. And I think we're clear about what coaching is.
But that first job that I had, which was information and counselling secretary, I wasn't counselling and I wasn't a secretary. Yeah, actually a job coach. which is quite a common job description in some organizations or young organization is actually another name for an old job. which is, I will make sure you get a job, not I will facilitate your thinking and processing and all those other bits and pieces. Yes. So there's something about how do you communicate with people that this is that that.
This is about how far you're willing to go and it's about how far I'm willing to go with you. And we can go somewhere really amazing if that's what we choose to do together. Yeah. It takes both of us to be able to do that. Yeah. So I think there is sometimes a pressure on coaches to be the miracle maker. Yeah. And of course, some coaching conversations evoke really extraordinary outcomes, but the extraordinary outcomes come back from both of us. Yeah. Doing the work together.
You know, we're not magicians are we? We're not, we're not wizards. We're not. No. We don't have the magic wand. This is work. So if we go to the other side, what would it be like if. Because there's something about how do you communicate that actually. The negative side is you're responsible for your own outcomes. Yeah, yeah. As in I'm not going to be a wizard. And the positive, of course, is that you're responsible for your own outcomes.
And that's also tricky because, Claire, if I'm responsible for my own outcomes, why can't I just do this by myself? Which, you know, yeah, what do I need you for? And some people can. Yeah, that's right. And some people can for certain things and not for other things. Which is why you and I are having a coaching conversation after this. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a piece of work that I need to do and I know that I can't do it without somebody helping me think.
So do you think there's something in that then that we talked a bit about vulnerability and power, but that kind of opening the door, you know, the thinker who's not yet a thinker. Opening the door to allow someone else into their space. Whereas potentially they might be worried about letting anyone else in. Is there something in how we describe this, which is a door opening process? Yeah, and is it not about a mutually opened door? Because you open it a bit, don't you?
And then you open it a bit more and then you open it a bit more. You know, you don't you don't throw the whole... No. And then find that out that you're on the edge of a cliff and the only way out is to jump off. So I wonder in the what would it be like if kind of question. What we're trying to do there is open the door enough, you know, something about the kind of there's a crack there, there's a bit of light. that is coming through.
What would it be like if you could slowly open the door to do some really good thinking? that would move you forward. with someone else. Yeah. So that you don't have to do all the work because you do it together. You are doing, because there's something, isn't there, where we say, will you do all the work? Well, they do do all the work, but actually they don't do all the work because we, we do the arriving at the thing together.
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And the work that we do is the enabling and facilitating thing and process holding. That might mean that they are rescued from their own. continue going around in circles thinking. Can I throw in a tangent, which might give us some insight? And I think that is how do you, there's something about how do you talk about it with individuals, but there's also how do you talk about it with sponsors? What would it be like if?
I've had a few coaches in the last few weeks, in fact, in the last week or so, where the bottom line of what they've been describing has emerged as. What if we actually did such a good job in session one that they didn't need anymore? And it shows up as all sorts of things. It often shows up as, I thought the coach was going really well and then in session five it all fell over and I must've done something wrong. Yep. And then I say, well, what if actually you did the work you were there to do?
And then often they go back and said, actually, I think probably we did the work we needed to do in session two. So there's something about how do we, how do we support sponsors of coaching to be willing and able to be flexible enough to really get a sense of what's useful and what isn't for them and for the organization and for the person who's coming to think. Yeah. Cause for some people.
You know, for a leader or the chief exec of an organization who feels really isolated, what would it be like if you had a really totally safe place to go and think about the things that you need to think about as you lead your organization? is amazing and that kind of contract, that kind of piece of work will go on over months, years, a long time. Whereas for someone else, it's what if, what would it be like if you had somewhere to go and unpick this particular dilemma?
Or what would it be like if you had somebody to travel with you in your first three months in your new role? Or what would it be like if you had somebody who would sit with you as you tried to work out what the next kind of role should be? Yeah, I'm not sure I'm going with that. Well, I was hearing in that about the sponsor. Yeah. And there's something a bit complex in that this isn't there because as the sponsor who has a budget and probably some KPIs somewhere along the line, you know, that's.
that what what coaches bring might not be so clearly tied down as as to fit all of those sort of criteria. So very often, we know, don't we in organizations that a sponsor might say, coach for this person, six sessions, you know, sort of, you know, a number, a number, which feels like the right sort of number. And because of course, it's hard to quantify. what this might look like. So a number is one way of doing it.
But yes, Claire, someone who, a coach who enables the person to do the thinking in two rather than six, or alternatively, that actually six isn't enough, that there's some really deep stuff that needs longer. That doesn't quite fit, does it? No. I think the other thing I'd say about the sponsor, once again recently for me, a conversation around action learning sets, which of course is many to one coaching.
And the sponsor was talking about the things that the organisation needed people to know as a result of the action learning. These were quite specific things, you know, they were really sort of. And so, you know, need to ask the question about. Isn't this something that could be trained? What's what's why? Why is an action learning set the thing? Because it's not the thing. Except that Claire, action learning sets and coaching are both a bit sexy.
And, and it feels quite nice to be able to offer these sexy things out to the organization. So we've got to be really clear, haven't we? When we're working with sponsors, that that's The outcome, what do you need to be different in six months, a year or however, what do you need to be different is something that is being aimed at. And that thing is going to be best enabled by coaching or action learning sets rather than some other way of doing work.
And bouncing the question back to the organisation, which is what's your role in that? Because... Because some of that can be dealt with in coaching, but actually what's your responsibility and what's your role in that happening? Whether that's an action learning set or one coaching or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. So what do we know now that we didn't know when we started talking?
I like the wondering level of that question, you know, what would it be like if I think that's a really nice sort of insight. And I like the idea of starting by sitting in the not yet thing, because I've got to say sitting in their shoes. Well, that would be really uncomfortable sitting in their seat.
And looking into what might it be, rather than looking out from the coach's perspective with all with the knowledge and wisdom of what coaching is, you know, we do need to look from a different perspective, don't we? And therefore we need to talk about it from a different perspective. Yeah. So I think good, good stuff. I wonder if the person who, who sort of was sitting us in, in with us in an imaginary way would have something else to go away and think about in terms of coaching now.
So if you've been sitting and listening to us in an imaginary way, and you've got something to add, ping us an email to info at 3dcoaching .com because we'd love to hear from you. And actually you might want to join us on a future episode of The Coaching Inn and talk more. And if, you know, a few people might want to do that and that'd be absolutely fantastic. You're really, really truly welcome to come and join us. Well Sue, it's always a pleasure to have time with you.
Absolutely. It always is Claire. Thank you. Now we need to say goodbye to our listeners and go off and have a coaching session. Goodbye listeners. Goodbye listeners. Thank you for listening. Have a good week. Bye bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching Inn, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you.
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