You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's episode of The Coaching Inn as we hunker down just before Christmas. And today it's my pleasure to have guests, Charley Cox and Sarah Flynn, who've recently published a great book called Climate Change Coaching, The Power of Connection to Create Climate Action. Don't we love that connection word?
So Charlie and Sarah, welcome to The Coaching Inn. Just tell us a bit about your coaching journeys and then we'll dig in to find out where the book came from. Charlie, do you want to go first? I can do. So I suppose I have to go back a little bit in time to about 2010 when I was running a business in West Africa, which is a creative agency in Freetown in Sierra Leone. And I started to question how I could develop my staff, both my national and my expatriate staff.
I had staff from lots of different countries. And I noticed a lack of confidence in decision-making that led to people not moving forward on things when they needed to. And I started to ask myself, what could I do? And I had no idea what coaching was. I'd never heard of it. But I got a coach at that point because she happened to be in the country. So was serendipitous moment.
Wow. And I started to really see that this was having an impact on me and wondering if it could have an impact on my team. And at the same time, I was also spending every lunchtime with a different entrepreneur that I knew, chewing over how their businesses ran and realizing that a lot of their problems felt quite similar. They felt quite emotional problems, blockers to action more than they were technical problems. And then I decided at some point that I had to leave.
I'd been in the country for almost seven years and I thought, I'm going to have to say, you know, if I don't leave soon, I'll be here for 20. And actually I've probably done what I want to do here. I'd worked with the UN, I'd worked with the big NGOs, I'd worked in corporate sector there. sort of done everything in the time I've been. So I decided to get my team to think about what their dream jobs were. And I was quite tough on them that I said, you can't just pick an easy job that's safe.
You have to pick a dream job. This is probably the only time you're going to get asked this question. And I was a bit impatient that they didn't automatically know the answer to that question. And now I do lots of career transition coaching. I'm like, of course people don't know the answer to that question. But we teased it out for everybody. And then we put budget behind every person. Everyone got the same budget.
and I told them to just come back to me when they knew how they wanted to spend it to get towards the dream. And certainly my national staff came up with things that were really challenging, were really big stretches. And I'll be honest, there was a part of me that thought there is no way you can do this. And a good example of that would be Yusuf, who is our night guard. And he... His education had been interrupted by the war. didn't speak. He didn't read and write very well.
And he was almost innumerate. And he said he wanted to work in IT. And I thought, wow, you how are you going to do this, Youssef? But because I was closing the business and because it was a dream, I didn't intervene. I thought it's not your place to say that he can't do this. So what you're to do is back him and put money into training. We bought him a laptop and we sent him for training. And he came second in the class.
amongst a whole load of clerical people who'd been using computers for years. And all of them proved me wrong. And I came out of that experience thinking, wow, this is, there's something really powerful in this believing in people and not having an opinion about whether they can or can't, but simply believing in them and championing them. And of course, budget played a bit of a role in that too.
And so I didn't know then what I was going to do when I came home, but that experience helped me realise that I needed to be a coach. And I remember saying to my coach quite sheepishly, you know, you were here to help me with career transition. Is it all right if I just pinch your job? And I came home and I trained and that was nearly 10 years ago and I love it. And it was the best teaching I could ever have had before I got into coach, proper coach training.
That actually is not our job to say whether someone can have their dream or not. It's just our job to believe them. What an amazing story, Charlie. Thank you so much for sharing that. Because that's a kind of, well, multiple lessons there, right? Yeah, it was quite a formative experience, I was saying. Yeah. Wow. Wow. And what's Yusuf doing now? Do you know? I don't know, actually. I've lost touch with Yusuf, but I'm still in touch with quite a few of my team through Facebook.
and through WhatsApp and they send me messages now and again. And one of the best ones I got was a picture of Musa who was almost like a kind of elder in the business. He was notionally our caretaker, but he did so much more. He helped sense check every decision I made. And Musa sent me a picture of him holding a driving license. And his dream was to be a driver, which sounded very simple, but...
Most people just bought a driving license in Freetown, you know, they sort of just paid the right guy and they got one and he wanted to actually learn and actually legitimately get one and it took forever to go through the actual real bureaucracy to get one. But when he got one, the smile on his face was just incredible. And his family had said, if you get the license, we'll help you get a car. But he had to prove to them he could get the license.
So the bit that was pivotal almost was that set of driving lessons and then paying for the license application. It's interesting, isn't it? As you speak, I know we're going to talk about climate change in a minute, everybody. That has you just to reassure you. But the interesting thing about that is that really supporting somebody to invest in a small thing was the thing in both of those stories that unlocked everything else. That's amazing, isn't it? Thank you. Well, top that, Sarah.
Yes, well, actually, and I didn't know all of that. I knew a little bit, Charlie. I've heard you talk a little bit, but I didn't know the depth of that story and I found it really touching. So thank you for sharing that. And I don't think I can top that at all. All I can do is my background's slightly different. So I did a psychology degree. and didn't know what I wanted to do. Well, I thought I did. I thought I wanted to be a clinical psychologist, but that was really hard to do.
And I went off and traveled and did various things and got various assistant psychologist posts. And I was working with a great team and looking, you know, doing an amazing multidisciplinary role in a children's hospital. And they were a fantastic team. Each individual was the best they could be pretty much. But the patients weren't getting the best they could get because they didn't have a mechanism for pooling their diverse experiences, knowledge, perspectives.
They sometimes felt threatened by each other or there was territory. And I just, instead of going, I want to work with the families, I was like, I want to work with the people who are supporting the families, the people who are the customers, if you like. And so I And by then I'd got a master's in psychological research methods. So I went and worked in consultancy within organizations, researching, doing sort of grounded theory research into resilience within the organization.
And I learned very quickly that it's not just about an individual or about the system, but it's about that interplay between the individual and the system. and how can we thrive as human beings in what we do? How can systems help human beings to thrive in their work and vice versa? And I kind of was very aware that often we were treating people's wellbeing and their performance as polar opposites.
Either you were performing and you were getting ill and suffering and putting on hold the fact that you were a real human being or you were being a human being, acknowledging your needs and somehow that was considered just not really pulling it, not doing the right hours, not as committed or something.
And that for me was a really, I realized the more I researched, the more I found out about psychology, the more I was just sort of listening that actually when we really thrive as human beings and when we really create. wonderful results. It's when we align our wellbeing and our performance, when we don't treat them as opposites, but actually we are in right relationship with ourselves and then things flow.
And I get a lot of migraines and so I know that's been a really useful sort of signal for me when I'm not aligning my wellbeing and my performance, but they're distinct and I'm pushing myself. And that was always a really helpful of barometer or canary in the coal mine for me. saw a lot of people don't have that and they do push through and they only kind of go, something's wrong here when they are literally burnt out or their families have suffered or they have to walk away.
so I decided I wanted to train as a coach and essentially I thought of it as I work with human sustainability. It's about how do we keep ourselves well and do what we love and really make a difference in the world rather than just kind of treating ourselves like strawberries in a polytunnel where we've got to produce at all times of the year and we don't taste very sweet and we're just squeezing our sort of workout.
And so I've been merrily working with resilience and during times of transition and change and really looking at how do we as human beings effectively change and keep ourselves well on that journey. And then I met Charlie and Charlie was like, any coaches really passionate about the planet? And for me, it was really about being in right relationship with ourselves, being in right relationship with each other. So we weren't saying you've got to do that, but actually what do you love?
What do you want to do? And in right relationship with our systems, our human systems and right relationship with the planet. For me, that just really slotted together all of the things in my life that were perhaps I was keep. So I was working with human sustainability, but I was doing sustainability at home in my private life. If you like, we were the ones never using baby wet wipes.
We were the ones sort of composting and using reusable nappies and, you know, all the things that made us a bit strange in our parent group. And I like to think nicely strange, but it just slotted them all together and the threads just really knitted together. that was that really.
So we started writing the book about how we effectively change as humans and how we can do that in the face of this enormous problem that human beings are facing, that human beings have created that's a human change problem. So that's a kind of a zzmpf, all the way through. That's interesting, isn't it? Because some people do the work, you know, really involved in the work and then they write the book about the work.
And it sounds as though the book was part of the exploring the work process for you. That was about putting it down on the page, think, and the team had done a lot of thinking about what do we see going on, what's needed, what are the blockers to human change in the face of this. And then it was about trying to put it on the page in a way that made sense. what's your dream? Sorry, Charlie. Well, I think for me, actually, the strapline came quite late, and we put around lots of straplines.
kicked around lots of titles. And as you see, it's not the most imaginatively titled book, Climate Change Coaching, but it sort of does what it says on the tin. But I think for me, that power of connection was something that I hadn't entirely clocked in what we were doing. And it just kept coming out again and again and again in the writing. And so then we started to say, actually, no, this really is the heart of this whole approach is about connecting.
And I think we kind of knew it, but maybe you knew it Sarah, but I hadn't quite put it into words until I started writing. And so there was something formative about the writing period. It was a couple of years, a lot. we did learn quite a lot in that time. We were also doing rebranding at the climate change coaches and totally infuriating the creative agency that had to do with this because we kept saying, actually, it's not about that anymore. It's about this thing.
Because we get, know, as we sort of wrote a bit more and deepened our understanding. But but I do think it was there was certainly a journey of learning about that connection piece. Yeah, the relationship piece really was central to everything. But just keeping coming. was like that crystallization each time. It's about relationships. It's about connection. It's about relationships. And just coming back to that all of the time.
Which is why writing a book proposal is a pain in the neck because the book that you write is never the book you proposed, right? Yeah. And when you write, you know, when we wrote the proposal, what's useful about the book proposal is they make you do a structure.
So you have a sort of rough idea of the structure and it only changed a little bit, I think, but But as we've just said, we were writing a of nuts and bolts, here's how you do it book about the sort of theory of how to do this kind of coaching. And that translated into the structure quite easily, but the sort of more philosophical sort of pieces to it weren't in the book proposal at all, that piece about relationship and connection. We really bottomed that out.
I remember it just felt like in every chapter I felt myself kind of coming back to the same place at that. Which is why you change the subtitle to the power of connection to create climate action. It's beautiful. It's very human. It's a, isn't it? It's very embodied human phrase. it's a, was the starting point. This is a human problem. It's a human change problem at the individual, the relationship and the systems level. Yeah. And our relationship with our planet.
Yeah. And I don't know about you, Charlie, but I found the book process because so much of what we're talking about is really transformational. What we need is transformation, not just transactional change. And that's quite a hard thing to put down in black and white because that's a transactional act, know, putting it down in black and white sort of pulls it back down and sort of capturing sort of maintaining the how do we transform as human beings?
How do we create that in ourselves and others? And what are the nuts and bolts? What are the steps? Was an interesting sort of play all of the time. And if you go back to what you said at the beginning, Charlie, about Yusuf and Musa. That was transformational change that was engendered by a transactional Here is some money. What's your dream job? Transformation question. Here is the money transactional act that's led to transformation.
Yes. And I think the intention was transformation and that's the important piece because if you take this up to the organizational level with, say climate targets, if the organization says we're just going to get to net zero. So we just look at our operations, put some solar panels on, we get an electric fleet.
I spoke to someone who said, four people in a room, know, the most senior four people in the organization could probably reduce our footprint to 90 % of what it is, because they hold the levers to a huge amount of the change. But that isn't going to deliver the change we really want. So we have to involve all of the workforce. that said, that's an early intention about transformation in mindset with the organization about waste and use.
rather than just saying, how do we tick this box so we can tell people we got to zero? Because, you as he said, we can get to zero really quite quickly, actually, it's, you know, with just a relatively small number of people that deliver the mindset shift. And that's what it's all about in coaching to mindset shifts. So tell us about the climate change coaches, because I'm sure that there are listeners going, can I do that? They very much can.
So we still run a training course every year for professional coaches. It's an open course. So the cohort is made up of coaches from all over the world. It's online. And partly that's because one of the big issues in this space is that people feel like they're the only one that cares. Or often they take it all on themselves. It's all on me. And even though we know logically it's not all on us, it's very easy to feel that way. So having people on a call.
for 16 weeks with you who are geographically all over the world, starts to scaffold that belief in the collective desire to change. So we have that coach program and it's an ICF accredited coach training program and it runs every year. And essentially in doing that, if you like, we're training our competition, right? Because, you know, we're training people to do this too. But I've never really bought that idea of competition. I think that it's just all of us building out.
this skill set and delivering more work. And let's be honest, this problem of the climate crisis is getting bigger and the need to do stuff is getting bigger. So I don't think we're ever gonna be out of work. So what we do at the climate change coaches is we basically, we want to put coaching in the hands of climate leaders. And that means either coaching them or group coaching them or offering training in coaching skills angled towards specific issues that they will.
they come up against in their work. So we're often working with sustainability people and environmental professionals. But we're also working with, you know, sort of common or garden or leaders in organizations who've been told you need to get to grips with this. So our group coaching program is pretty good at that because what we tend to find with that is we get given a team who want to do something, but it's priority number four. And the organization set a big climate agenda.
We don't go in if they haven't. this team really needs to land it and work out what it means for them. They know how to do the other three priorities. So they're getting on with those. And number four keeps kind of getting shoved because it feels really overwhelming. And there are lots of feelings that come with this topic, like, I'm not clever enough for this, or this is probably a scientist's job.
And so group coaching literally creates a space for those people to first of all, fess up and say like, really need to do some of this, but I've just been putting it off. And then they realize they've all been feeling that way. And then all that dissonance gets kind of cleared out and then they can start to return to, it's pretty cool that the organization is doing this actually. And what could we do?
And we're always surprised that one of the things that often comes out of that conversation is people saying that the thing they're most anxious about in the change is relationships and particularly relationships with suppliers. You know, we've been working with John's company for 30 years and we feel like in making this change, we're telling him his stuff's not good enough anymore. And that, you know, we have this idea that organizations are quite cutthroat, quite mean.
And actually we've never seen that. We've seen people with tremendous heart, tremendous care, who are stalling because they're worried about having a conversation that feels combative. And we can show them that it actually can be even more connecting. when you do it in a particular way, which is to be open about why you care and what you're doing rather than to be kind of blaming and shaming or finger pointing. So that one of the things we did is group coaching.
And the other thing is training, which is really kind of applied climate change coaching. So every time we've been in an organization and they've said, we've got a real problem with this, we've sort of banked it somewhere. And that led to... to a creation of a nine module course, which funnily enough mirrors the book that we wrote.
So section B of the book has a whole series of chapters and each one of those is essentially all the stuff we never get to say in a training plus some of the stuff we do to really kind of create a long form of the training courses that we run. So it's very, we're very practical. We kind of come at this. from very pragmatic perspective. If you look at our website at climatechangecoaches.com, it's very bright, it's very bold. There's lots of pictures of people.
There's very few pictures of the nature or the environment on purpose because when people make a website about climate change, it's very green, there's lots of trees. And people, as a former photographer, people don't associate with those images. We're too disconnected from nature. So the website... and our entire brand is about people taking action and looking like they're having a great time doing it. So we build this dream to run towards, not a nightmare to run away from.
So everything that you've ever done, both of you has come together in this work that you're doing together. What a beautiful combination you bring. Yeah, it's been, it was absolutely fantastic writing the book with Sarah. Her research background, apart from her just enormous amounts of knowledge, her research background was absolutely amazing. And we were swapping content between each other for the mutual editing.
And I remember getting to the resilience section, section D that Sarah did a huge amount of the writing on and realizing that I was burning out as I was reading her burnout chapter, because we were right up against deadline for the book. I'm thinking, I really should have had a conversation with Sarah where she gave me some advice about this stuff maybe about a year ago. Sarah, what were you going to say? I wasn't actually going to add anything specific.
I'm just letting it all sink in, really, about what you said about it's actually a culmination of what we've both done feels very true, and it feels the same for the team. So the team bring just such beautifully rich perspectives, passions. talents. And I have to say whenever we speak to people, well, I think anyone doing work in this space has that and probably doesn't believe that their unique talents are valuable and their piece of this massive jigsaw puzzle that needs to come together.
But certainly when people I think go through the training or start to get to grips with what they want to do and what matters to them and what really do they feel just so upset about in terms of climate change or really listening and getting in touch with those internal parts, people really start to come alive and bring some magic to this problem. And we are so often thinking, we've got to do it as a, there's a thing we've got to do and somebody's got the right answer.
I've just got to, you know, if I'll get there eventually. No, we all need to show up as human beings with our unique quirks, talents, things that drive us nuts, know, bits that we can't do that somebody else can do, you know, and really pull together as human beings in this rather than there's some answer out there. You know, we talk about the Kunafin model of change and talk about the fact that so often we're coming at this thinking there's got to be an expert to fix this problem.
But the experts in this space are saying, I can't have all the answers because it's emerging. We're creating it as we go along. We need a coaching relationship with the clients in the organization. I'm thinking of sustainability consultants who build a relationship and because of that, create change rather than coming in and going, wham, bam, this is what you do. I'm the consultant, I'm the expert. Steps A to C, you're there.
actually it's about just the really the human element and that's the most powerful but also the most intangible and difficult. So that's think why this felt really important to do. Yeah, she's building on that. You just make me remember we were just doing some work with a big insurer and one of the things they identified was that one of the teams they were trying to influence was very risk averse and wanted the answers.
They wanted certainty and in the way we worked with them, we sort of did a hybrid of a little bit of training and group coaching. And we trained them in how to listen for values. And they had this break breakthrough moment of, they have some value sitting under uncertainty. What we need to find out what that is, is it is it safety? Is it security? Is it competence?
You know, so often we had to find that out, because once they could start to speak to that, they didn't actually need to have the answers. They just needed to help. that team feel that they had that sense of safety in the uncertainty or whatever it was. And that's the power of this approach that all of us as coaches have the ability to do is to get people below the topic and the story into the sort of what really matters. Because that's where you've got the most leverage.
Whereas at the topic things can get quite stuck. And your example, Sarah, just completely reminded me of them saying that. and realizing that values could be a helpful route out of that problem. Yeah, absolutely. Charlie has a lovely little diagram that she shares where we often go from the issue, help me remember the exact bits, but we go, we try and step over the emotions to go to the issue and the solution. And actually what we need to do is just acknowledge the emotions.
it sounds like you feel stuck. It's overwhelming, isn't it? You know, it sounds like it's new and you've never done it before, but connecting with the human and the emotion and what they're really saying.
So often it's just disempowerment or it's, you know, well, stuckness, whatever word you want to use and actually not trying to step over that and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we've got to, but actually just staying with them in that and normalizing it, hearing it, naming it in itself is just so powerful. and is connecting as well.
So instead of us polarizing into little groups that believe more or less or do more or less, actually it connects across people who are doing something, people who aren't doing something, people who, know, wherever you are in the change curve, that connecting to the human being just pulls the different groups together and creates those bridges to across difference. that's really connecting and that means we can create much more effective change in our human system, if you like.
And of course that takes both sides of the relationship. So I think often people come into our training thinking, great, they're going to give me some tools that I can do stuff to other people with. And actually, you know, to build on what you said, Sarah, there's a tendency that we see isn't there for people to be quite technical. And so they go to facts. If I just throw some more facts at this person. they'll change.
And there's a brilliant case study in the book from Sarah Taylor, who's the climate lead at Natural England, saying, you know, exactly that. She's sort of tongue in cheek, says, you know, I think, they must need more facts to help them decide. I'll just throw some more facts over. But of course, partly that's coming from our own anxiety. And if we can manage our own part of the relationship, we are much more available to help the other person.
But what's happening is that two sets of anxiety are hanging off each other. And so the real starting point, which probably nobody wants to hear is it starts with us and how we turn up to these conversations. But that in itself is often a bit of a light bulb for people. And in every session we talk about the coaching skill of self-management and yeah, okay, to begin with. And then after a while, boy, yeah, okay, I get it now. Yeah, it really is about me, isn't it?
And it's great because we can control us and how we shop. Yeah, being a campaigner is a great thing. But being a campaigner at a coaching session has an impact on the relationship. And I think for us, really big piece with that is that often we in this space, because of the urgency, because of the overwhelm, because of the enormity of it, we will often sort of try and step over our emotions and go, we've got to act, we've got to act, which we absolutely do have to act.
But often the emotions aren't the problem, they're the key to really powerful transformational action. Because that thing that drives us absolutely nuts, that's our righteous anger about something that probably if we can explore lovingly, we'll find our purpose. We'll find our resonance, we'll find our energy. That thing we're feeling extreme grief about or real fear about, instead of pushing that away, because then we don't move on.
As coaches, we know that actually those emotions, just giving some space for that brings us back to resonance, brings us back to agency. But we think they're the problem and we've got to step over those emotions, but actually they're the fuel that give us the... the power, the resonance, the peace and the agency from what's really happening, not from what we wish was happening. So it's kind of hard, but it's really beautiful as well when somebody has just heard in those feelings.
They come back to resonance and agency quite quickly. Well, not necessarily quickly, but they come back in a really much more true sort of way. There's something else about that, which is that this is a very logic dominated space. And so a lot of people feel excluded because they don't have the sort of logic chaps, if you like, they're not clever enough.
know, even people who are in this, this climate world say, I'm not, I'm not clever enough, or I don't know enough about some niche or something. And so it's really important to get people into their heart space because everyone's got a stake there. everyone can connect there. And yet, you we went to COP a couple of weeks ago in Egypt, and we were one of the few sessions that talked about that.
And lots of people came up to us afterwards and said, wow, we really need this or could you coach the people going into negotiations, you know, because it is so much logic and fact trading going on. And that's where Sarah said, brilliantly, that's where you get polarization, but it's also, it's not, it's missing the point. And I think there's something, there's something else which is about climate justice in here.
I'm going to, I'm skating on slightly thin ice here, but I'll, let me frame it this way. My experience of West Africa, I can't speak to the South, though I've just been doing some work with some people in Malawi who said exactly the same thing about Malawi, but I can't speak to the centre of the South. But my experience of West Africa is of people being very relationally focused.
It's relationships first and sort of action second, and that you don't do anything until you've built a relationship with somebody. And if you think about the global north, or maybe I'm just think about Northern Europe, we're quite action-focused, task-focused. And so there's a little bit of a clash going on, I think, when you have dominance for action, data, logic, that's dominating the whole planet and the decisions being made for the whole planet.
I've been thinking about purpose as you've been talking, because a lot of organizations are working in service of profit. And you're talking about working in service of the planet and working in service of the future. And it's funny, because I haven't thought about this for years. And I was talking about it in last week's podcast of John Blakey. So William Damon, who I think was professor of human development at Stanford wrote a book called path to purpose.
And he says, we find our purpose when we connect to something outside of ourselves. And what you're doing is you're working, you're using a coaching style with people who are finding their purpose, aren't you? Who are finding a purpose of something outside of themselves, which is the planet, the future. And what a rewarding thing that is. Because when you work in organizations that are working in service of profit, there's Well, if that's not your thing, then that's not your thing.
But actually, there's also something about there isn't a common goal because it's my profit. I'm working in service of my profit, my shareholders profit. Whereas you're describing this hour, aren't you? Our planet, our future. And so often when people do connect to their hearts and not just their heads and they connect to themselves as human beings, that's naturally comes out. It's so interesting. I do two kinds of coaching. I do parental transition coaching and this coaching.
And I will often coach people who in a corporation about their parental transition. And what I observe is that when you that when they connect to their heart, when you ask them really deepening questions like, what do you care about what do you take a stand for with this? What really matters to you? All of those deepening questions, you notice their energy and you feed it back to them.
So often it starts about parental transition and the next promotion or how do I sort of still make sure I'm doing the hours that are needed and all of this sort of thing. And so often by the end, even though we've never mentioned climate change coaching. They're saying, I want, this is what I stand for. This is what I want to spend the rest of my life doing. This is what I, this is what matters to me in this organization. This is, they just find their voice and they have found my power now.
And this is who I am and what I'm doing. And it's so beautiful. And you know, the changes that have happened as a result. So I truly believe that by connecting in with ourselves, we also connect in with the wider world and vice versa. I think there's a very natural flow between the two. Thank you. What a great conversation. Thank you so much, Charlie and Sarah, for coming to the Coaching In.
And the book's called Climate Change Coaching, The Power of Connection to Create Climate Action by Charlie Cox and Sarah Flynn. So how do people contact you if they want to talk more? Well, they can find us at theclimatechangecoaches.com and they can find us at charliecox at theclimatechangecoaches.com or sarah Flynn at theclimatechangecoaches.com. And they can also probably get in touch with us through Open University Press. We also have a LinkedIn page.
We're not big social media people, but we do like LinkedIn because it's quite civilized and it doesn't seem to be any mudslinging tremendously happening there. So if you want to find us, to see what we're up to and get updates and events that we're doing. That's probably a good place to go as well. Is there anything I've missed Sarah, anything you want to throw in? No, no, that's that's great.
And just just you I know you can't edit it out, but you might have heard gentle piffling snores in the background. It's the dog next to me. just needed to say that because you thought what's going on over there. No, well, thank you, Charlie, and thank you, Sarah, for joining me at The Coaching In. Bye bye, everyone. check out 3dcoding.com