S2 Episode 40: Business Builder 2022: How do new coaches get work? (Extended Special Edition)

You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello there, it's Claire Pedrick. Today at the Coaching Inn, we have a business special with all kinds of interesting guests. To become a successful coach, you need to be a great coach, and we've talked about that in many of our podcasts. But also most coaches need to find a way of getting work, and for most coaches, that requires some level of business building.

So we thought it'd be fun to listen to some coaches who are in their first year or so and to see what top tips they have to share. So let's meet them and find out what made them say yes to coming to the Coaching Inn. Our first guest is Meiri Hargest. So I'm Meiri. I live in mid Wales. Fact is that I've moved 23 times in my lifetime. Wow. Most recent being about a month ago. So, yeah, I think that kind of tells you a lot about me. I've lived all over the globe. I'm an immigrant to the UK.

I love living here. Amazing. And I feel like I'm British and represent culture as well of this place. I suppose why this episode? For me, I think it was the topics really fascinating, like us as coaches, we can all get together as just one type of thing, and we're not. We all have a different background. We all have a different lens that we're looking at this thing called coaching from.

And in addition to that, I'm actually, I've been trained two years officially in coaching, and I've had a period of maternity leave. and I work part -time in a completely different field. So that brought quite nuance to this conversation, I felt. So I asked if I could join the conversation. Well, you're very welcome, Mayor Ruth. And our next guest is Gail Hudson. So an interesting fact about me is that as a family, we look after guide dogs when they're in their final weeks of training.

So we've had over the last 10 years probably about, gosh, getting on for 20 different guide dogs live with us for the last 10 weeks before they start their training. So that's a lovely thing to do. And why I said yes to this podcast was firstly, I saw the call out. I'm a huge fan of yours, Claire, and the work that you do. And I've really benefited massively from your podcasts and your book. And...

I've been really reflecting a lot in terms of my learning journey over the last couple of years of coaching and I really wanted to just be part of a conversation about it because I just think it's really great to learn and share with others. And our next guest is Caroline Tapkin. Tell us about you. Well, I'm a traveller. I am a chameleon. I constantly reinvent myself depending on where I'm living and what I'm doing. So based in the UK these days, but 35 plus years overseas as an expat.

Why did you say yes to the podcast? Because it's been such an interesting journey. And yeah, I'm curious to know what other people have found, but yeah, lots to share, lots to share. And next in our lineup of coaches who've qualified in the last year or so is Gary Crotas. Hi, well I'm an executive coach now, but I've been many things over the years, probably the most unusual one being a professional ballroom dancer.

So I spent about 10 years of my career when I was doing a day job, but I was also traveling the world with my wife competing, training competing around the world as a professional ballroom dancer. That is very interesting. And why did you say yes to the podcast, Gary? I'm really interested to always to meet other coaches and to reflect on our learnings and things that have gone well and things that have challenged us. So always interesting to hear different perspectives. fantastic.

What I'm loving about this is that you're all so very different. So here's Sarah Brooks. So I'm a university lecturer as well as being a coach. And my my life seems to have aligned in a career space, which has been a surprise to me. Sometimes people say that when they're doing coaching things, they end up coaching about topics that they'd never imagined. And this is definitely one of them.

And the reason I said yes to the podcast is because it's it comes in line with the year end and me taking stock of what I've achieved this year. So I thought the timing was really good, but. It can be quite isolating working all by yourself. And so I was really interested to meet other people as well and hear what they've got to say and see if I can learn anything more. Welcome. And Sarah Klein. Hello. I was in the public sector for over 20 years before I became a coach.

I originally trained as a counselor and I've had a lifelong fascination with people, all things people and all things learning. I'm based in Shropshire, which is in the UK. And the reason I came is similar to you, Sarah, actually. This year is naturally a time of reflection. And I've been doing some writing about the coaching business that I've got. And this came at a really good time to share that reflection. So I was really pleased when I saw that invitation.

So my first question to you all is what have you done in your first year since you finished your training for your coaching and what have you done in that first year for your business? Who wants to go first? So I think the best thing I did for my coaching skill was to formalise it by some training. I trained with Barefoot, which was a company that I'd followed for quite a long time.

And although I had coaching skills and could have called myself a coach, I actually felt that I wanted that piece of paper. And so that was a really good experience as well in terms of meeting other coaches and just the quality of the training. So I think doing some formal training and carrying on doing CPD, I think, is the thing that I have benefited from the most.

In terms of business, I think it was... getting real about the fact that, so I left the public sector eight years ago and set up a consultancy. But I'm one of those people who likes to do lots of different things. So I would describe myself as having a portfolio career. And so I did bits of everything, which I really enjoy. But in terms of trying to sell my services, it makes it really difficult going back to what Caroline was saying before. There was no niche, there was nothing specific.

I was Sarah who did bits of everything. So I think from a business point of view, really focusing down in on, I'm Sarah, I work with knackered women and I offer coaching. I particularly work with values driven public sector women and people in those types of organizations. It's made it really clear. And so narrowing it down to be very specific and talking to people about that thing very clearly and consistently is probably the key thing.

Because probably everybody's thought either that's me or that's somebody I know. Absolutely. Yeah. It's very easy to relate to. Yeah. Thank you. I think if I jump in, like my thinking about foot for my coaching is actually reading and talking about it. I joined a really lovely network of independent coaches, probably in July last year. And that's been amazing. Just to have conversations and resources and people going through the same thing.

And yeah, just continuing the reading, continuing the development and not feeling like I've done the course and now I'm done because I don't think the development ever stops. And so that's been brilliant for the coaching perspective and really thinking through how do I coach and why do I coach? I guess from a business perspective, I was really thinking about what I wanted to do and why I was coaching in the first place. Like the money's never been like a driver for me.

It's nice to have, like, what do I really want to see? Why did I bother training? Really thinking that through and then applying it to the people I want to work with. And I, for me actually, probably about two or three years ago, I was feeling really sad and really stuck in a job I really didn't like. And I could have done with some coaching, but I'd have probably told myself I couldn't afford it, that who was I to get a coach, you know, all those stories. And I suppose that kind of spurs me on.

So I start thinking about those people who are in jobs that they don't like anymore and want to make a change. And yeah, so I've... I decided to go down that road. Fantastic. Thank you. Gail, what about you? Yeah, it's really interesting you say that, Mari, because for me, the networking and linking with other coaches has been incredible.

And I don't know about you, but I found to start off, there's a lot of kind of charlatans out there, a lot of people trying to sort of bring you into their sort of marketing funnel and take you through all these things. And, and, And there's a lot of expectations as well about this is what you need to do to set up a coaching business. And I think that the best thing was when I was able to kind of recognise that that wasn't me.

And I could step away from that and not feel I had to be drawn into that and find my own path really. Sarah Brooks, what about you? So I think there's two things I've thought about here about what was the best thing I did for my coaches. So one of them was to refresh my training. So I originally did my training in 2008 and I did a little bit of coaching as part of my job as a management consultant at the time.

But I went through a process of re -qualifying and having coach mentoring and putting myself back in the space. And actually it was amazing how much forward the coaching business world has improved over that 10 years since when I originally. So I really noticed that difference, but that was definitely the best thing that I did. And then I joined, just like Sarah said, a CPD. I do, I pay monthly for a subscription for coaching. And so I do some form of coaching CPD every day.

And I think that has really helped me grow my confidence. And then for my business, what's really helped me is finding my voice. And, and I know we kind of talked before about picking colors and looking at our website and we kind of said, or maybe it had limited value for me. That process was really important. because what it allowed me to do was find my voice, work out who I am, how am I gonna represent myself? How do I want to help people?

What's gonna allow me to feel confident when I put myself out there and say, I'm a coach, I want to coach you. And so that process was really important to me. Thank you. I'm very struck by what you said about coming back into coaching in the present. rather than picking up in the past and how much you've noticed to changed. And that takes courage, doesn't it? But, you know, I really salute you for doing that.

Well, what happened was I tried to set up my own business in 2009 and it's, I think it's become a bit of a family joke because I set up this business and I was so passionate about it and I was going to give 10 % of everything I made to a charity that I really like. And I made no money and I floundered because I couldn't find any help. It was, you know, really kind of pre -internet actually.

I didn't know where to go and I floundered and I lost my confidence and I gave up thinking it was a really silly thing to have tried to do. And yet actually I recognize now 10 years later, there's so much help and so much support and so much more available. Actually this time round. I wouldn't say it's been easy, but it's definitely been easier.

And I've got so much more confidence, but that's thanks to everybody else and that sharing and all the conversations, you know, that's in people's awareness now that coaching is a really good thing to do. Thank you. So Gary, what's the best thing you did for your coaching for your business? I think it's similar to what other people said in terms of, of the training. So it's interesting when... as Sarah Klein said, about developing the skills, but also having the piece of paper.

I think for me, there was a motive, my initial motivation to go into training was, I felt that I needed the validation of having formal training behind me. Going through the training, I realized all the other things I had no idea about that I also needed, which was the, what I described as sort of frontal lobotomy of coaching training to take out. because I was a corporate strategist before, so I was the person that was tasked with coming up with answers.

And that's exactly the part of my brain I need to switch off when I'm in coaching mode. So I think that I would be nowhere near where I am in coaching and that I'm still very early on the journey, but I'd be nowhere near where I am if I hadn't gone through that process of formal training. I trained with Henley Business School over the course of most of the last year.

And I also did training with Gallup actually with the Clifton Strengths Assessment, which was, it's a really interesting balance actually to the more sort of pure coaching training of a Henley kind of course. And in terms of what I've done in the year that's helped the business, I mean, I've done a few things, but I think that it all really comes down to focus.

So I made a choice about a year ago to aim to be 100 % focused on coaching in the year, which has an obvious income impact in putting yourself under under that kind of pressure. But what I found was that in being 100 % focused, I could say I'm a coach. And that's what I do.

And actually, for clients who are already getting over the idea that I'm a relatively, you know, early stage coach, and they might be one of my earlier clients, I wasn't giving them the additional sort of And is this really your main focus? Is this really what your experts are doing? So I think it really helped me with those early clients to get them to go, you know, I know that you're relatively earlier stage in your coaching career, but you're fully committed to this.

And I found that's been very helpful. And along the way I've done other things like writing a book that's coming out in January, which is again, actually a part of that creating this, my own focus, I know who I am, but also that clarity for people that I'm working with that they're clear on exactly what I do, what I'm about. So that's been very helpful. Thank you. Caroline. For my coaching, I set aside time each week for continued learning.

I think there's nothing like a coach for continuing to learn. There's always something new and something going on. And that's often something we can get caught up in if we don't have clients that, you know, we just need to keep learning more, then the clients will come. But I think it's very important to set aside time for that specific learning. So Friday Afternoons is my NLP. for coaches learning time, which is wonderful and reconnects me with the actual coaching skills.

For the business, I'm a lifelong marketer, but of travel and hospitality services. So I thought no problem setting up a business. I've set up businesses. I had my own PR company before and all sorts of things, but setting up a coaching business, was a totally different ball game and I actually had no idea. So I invested in somebody who does have an idea. So I joined a mentoring program. Am I allowed to mention them?

Yes. The coaching revolution, Sarah Short, you probably see her, she's everywhere. She's everywhere. But it has been so helpful in what Gary said, focusing. on what the business actually needs as opposed to what you want to do. And we all want to play around with the website and the pretty colors and everything else, but it's not what the business needs. And the coaching revolution has really helped me to focus and to maintain that focus and having those two balances.

So the coaching coach side and the business coach side. has really helped me develop my skills and my business this year. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because that really works for you. And yet for others, an investment in something like that ends up feeling something that doesn't work for them. So, you know, we're all different. And I think that's what's so great about this world. Gary, you have to be very careful what you choose to invest in.

that it is right for you rather than what others tell you you should do. Yeah, absolutely. I found it a very interesting process very recently because it was about a year ago that I was most of the way through my formal training with Henley. And I got to a place where I started to think about actively scaling and growing and reaching out to people that didn't already know me. So up until that point, I was working with people that I knew. that were already in my network.

And I've looked back recently to say, okay, of all the things I've done in the year, what were the things that actually made a difference? And it's a very small list of things. For me, it's three things. One is doing the Gallup CliftonStrengths training, because that was something where it's often quite difficult to get people into the conversation of coaching for the things we've already talked about.

but actually to say, would you find it interesting to do this assessment, find out what your strengths are? Actually, I found lots of people have found that a sort of entry point. And by the time you've had a conversation about that, they already get a feel for what coaching is. So that's been very powerful and has worked out from business perspective. The second is not the website, but I did a one -pager to describe myself as a coach.

And so when people talk to me about coaching, I can... say, and here's my one pager. And it took me ages to work out exactly that language. But I've had now several client relationships that have come from, I saw your one pager or they forwarded to somebody else, whatever. So actually, it wasn't an expensive thing to do. It was just a lot of hard work to exactly nuance the wording.

The third thing that I've done, again, I didn't anticipate this at the beginning of the year, But doing sort of podcast webinar type chats. So I did two webinars for companies I worked with before that probably had 20, 25 people listening in. And I did a, you know, one of them was what is coaching? And another one was what's the sort of boss to leader to coach transition for leaders. So very simple, very high level conversations.

And out of each of those, I got one, new coaching relationship with somebody that only knew me because they'd have me on the webinar. So now whenever I get the opportunity to speak on something, I think that's interesting thing to do because, you know, no website or no one page or anything else can really replace hearing from somebody speaking and going, actually, I think they've been an interesting person to have a conversation with.

So those are the things that I look back on and think, that's where it's all come from everything else I've done. I couldn't link actual growth of the business to. That's really interesting. Everything else I could, I've done, I couldn't link growth to, because I think we go up a lot of rabbit runs. And then we also accidentally fall over something that really suddenly changes everything. And sometimes that's a strategic accidentally falling over.

And sometimes it's a, we just accidentally fall over it. And that's, and that's okay. A lot of coaches have asked me about my opinion on training in a tool. And for me, I like CliftonStrengths for a whole variety of reasons. But I actually think that from a business perspective, it's a having a tool is a helpful sort of entry point for a lot of people. And I don't know, you know, I think it's the right tool for the right person.

But it's interesting, because in those conversations, I can say, you know, this was the cost of my training. These are all the sessions that I've had in the course of the following. year, based on that training, this was the point where I paid back the cost of the training. So I can tell you that for me, I've made now made a net profit out of out of doing that.

So not only have I benefited in terms of my own coaching development, but also, you know, I'm comfortable that it wasn't wasted money from a pure commercial perspective, vary by different people as to how they do it. And I did meet on Clubhouse, actually, a coach in the US who he thinks that he is the he has the most psychometric assessment trainings of all coaches in the US he had something like 50 or 60 or 70 assessments that he's done the training in.

And I thought, I didn't know that I'd see you as an expert in any of them. So I quite like the idea of, you know, if I want to do NLP, for example, as a coachee, that I talked to somebody who does that all the time, that wouldn't be that wouldn't be me. But if I was wanting to work on strengths and I want to work with somebody that does that all the time. So, you know, it's the right person, the right tool for the right person. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think the diagnostics are particularly useful if you're doing executive coaching in organizations, because often those things come together. People who are doing more personal coaching. I think it really depends on the context as to whether that's useful, but absolutely in executive coaching, because that's often the thing that people are shopping for. And as you say, once they've bought that, then they'll buy something else.

So I'm really interested to hear where you get your support and where you get your challenge from. We've heard different places that you kind of move, but where do you get your support? Who's your tribe and where do you get your challenge? Sarah Klein, you look like you've got something to say. It's a great question, actually, Claire.

The notion of tribe, I think, really appeals to me because when I left my organisational career, I was immediately start thinking gosh I wonder where I find that tribe of people that are similarly purposeful about a similar thing. So I've I think it's taken a while, but some of the key things have been. And CPD and meeting people as part of that so as other people said I'm an ongoing learner and attend of CPD I think and.

a couple of coaches set up something called Coaches Gathering and that's been a really fantastic place to meet people and to sort of have that sense of tribe. People from my initial training, we're a tribe together and so that's been useful. Group supervision again has been useful as well. But I also think for me LinkedIn, I use LinkedIn frequently and liberally and that has brought a sense of tribe. I think the more I show up, the more people show up that feel like tribes.

So that has been really, it's been a beautiful thing, actually. In terms of challenge, that's a really interesting question. I would have, having trained and practiced originally as a counsellor, I always found supervision very challenging in a helpful way in terms of unpicking what was really going on.

And I think for me, coaching supervision to date has been often very useful and illuminating, but I haven't... felt a sense of challenge in the way that I did previously in my counselling supervision. So yeah, that's a really good question. I think I have it in my own coaching relationships where I've worked with coaches. I've had challenge through that, but on a more ongoing basis, I think I'm probably still looking for that.

And like you, I think my path has been very much finding a community that is a proper trusted community that aren't trying to sell you stuff that you can actually build. I've got genuine friends now after, you know, a year or so in that, in that space and where you can really feel that you can kind of share learning, share resources and stuff. We've, we've in my little community, we've set up coaching triads and sort of peer coaching groups.

And I'm also part of an action learning set and that there's a lot that you can do just in terms of your ongoing. immersing yourself in that learning, I suppose, with other people and other colleagues and learning from others as well has been amazing. And for me, being part of an action learning set with more experienced coaches has been, I was so lucky to be in that space as well. And that's been absolutely incredible.

I felt really intimidated to start with and actually doing that has really made me gain kind of courage, find my vulnerabilities, all those sorts of things, which has really kind of stretched me. And in terms of the business stuff, for me, again, I think it was easy to get swept along initially with the thought of needing to get lots of clients and how are you getting your clients and everything.

What I've done and it's worked really well for me is work as an associate with lots of other organizations. And that's given me loads and loads of clients, a regular stream of income. and also real kind of diversity of clients. So it's meant that I haven't kind of, you know, everybody's tells you, you should niche, you should do this. This is the kind of coach that I am. And for me, it just didn't fit.

I really love working across a huge kind of range and working as an associate has been fantastic for me to be able to do that. I feel really just amazed I've been able to do that. And I've just had... literally hundreds of hours of coaching from doing that. And I think maybe as I grow and develop, I'll find my own kind of voice and space and what I'm offering as me. But I've really benefited so much from kind of being in the space as an associate, I think.

And as you say that, I'm thinking every hour that you've coached is forming you as a coach. And some of those hours will have been amazing. And you'll have come away going, I'm really proud of my coaching for that. And some of those hours will have been a bit of a car crash and will also have been really great learning for you. And actually that's how it is for everybody. And it takes the pressure off, isn't it? Doesn't it?

I think when you don't have to pay the supermarket bill from the next person that you're coaching. Definitely, definitely. I'm interested because there's a theme that's coming up from what you're saying, both of you, which is something about about the support network that you need to have around you in service of not wobbling. When the sexy things start waving at you. Yeah, and I think I'm going to jump in here, but I early doors, I didn't have that network around me.

I got sucked into social media training. I paid a significant amount of money for that. To be honest, I didn't really need at the time. I wasn't in a place I could commit to either because I was pregnant and just about to have my baby, thinking about maternity leave, et cetera, and also thinking. maternity leave is going to be a long time. Maybe I'll be able to set my business up at the same time, which is foolish in hindsight, let's put it that way.

There is not as much time as you think there is and you just want to bond with your child. So actually, yeah, social media training, it sounds lovely. You probably need the right people with the right frame of mind if you're going to go down that road and you definitely don't need it really early doors. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think sometimes people think I need to do this and I need to do this and I need to do this.

I mean, I spent a lot of money on a business development course, creating words that aren't me. And they all had to go in the bin and each word probably cost me 50 quid. But that had to go, because there's something about, we are human beings who facilitate the... the thinking of other human beings. And therefore the way we describe ourselves needs to be honest and real and true. Just something Mayuri about maternity leave. I set up 3D coaching when my younger child was three.

And then I never worked in the school holidays because I didn't want to work in the school holidays. And I still don't. amazing. And they are well adults now. Yeah. So actually that formation and that shape of a business that said what shape does my business need to be for me now was such a life -giving shape that I didn't change it when I could. Yeah, that's beautiful and really helpful actually. I actually don't have half term when everyone else does.

I have it the following week, but same thing. Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's a great question to sit with as we come to the end of the year. Thank you. Sarah Brooks, where do you get your support? Who's your tribe? So quite similar to Sarah Klein's answer actually. So. I joined quite a lot of coaching groups, particularly during lockdown because they were all online and because I didn't really have much to do so.

And the Sheffield coaching exchange and three shires which are to you know locals where I live in chesterfield and they were brilliant I got a lot of support and a lot of people and again yes supervision group supervision a love group supervision and i've learned a lot and. The groups that i'm now part of we share. I think you know we're able to make ourselves vulnerable, which I think is really important and.

i'm also part of some pro bono coaching groups, so I do volunteer coaching from the groups actually I feel very supported by them, they offer supervision as well as i've got to meet other people and, but I suppose the one thing that really does it for me is the one to one relationships. and although I go to lots of group things, it's the one -to -one relationships and the conversations that we have outside of the group.

I would say that that allow me to really connect with people and feel validated or really help me recognize what, what I'm doing right. And maybe what I need to do differently. with regards to challenge, so I'm coaching triads. My word. I mean, they are really challenging. And I think I've done loads of them and you always go in there thinking I need to be confident because there's no other way to be. And then you get some feedback.

And although it is meant to be constructive and kind and supportive, it makes you realize that, my gosh, I've got so much to learn. And I always come out of them thinking, why do I do these things? but they are ultimately really, really beneficial. Because people are giving you feedback on real observable data. And that's different from where we go and we talk about things. And then we get feedback on our self -reported version of the data. And I absolutely agree, Sarah.

There's nothing like real observable data in terms of the benefit or the pain. but it's where coaches really, really grow. I've just done a training this morning and it was session two, so they did their first practice. And one of them said, that was really difficult. And I said, yes, because nobody gives you feedback by observing the conversations that you have.

They either say, I loved it, which doesn't mean it was good, or they tell somebody else they didn't love it, which doesn't mean it was bad. So we get ourselves in a bit of a mess, don't we? So yeah, absolutely real observable data. I have a few buddies who I use for different reasons. So I have somebody who's a buddy who runs a business about the same size as 3D.

And we have a kind of mutual exchange where if something happens and we need a new policy or we need to think about this or we need to think about that, we often will ring each other up. and say, so she's my business of a slightly equal size buddy. And then I have other buddies for other reasons where there's an equitable sharing of support, challenge and kind of information sharing.

So that kind of goes back, Sarah, come on to your thing about the LinkedIn network, but it's also about being generous and feeling free to ask people. Because there's always somebody who knows, isn't there? So Caroline, where's your tribe and where do you get your challenge? Well, my tribe, I've gathered over the years from various different corners of the world, I guess. So there's always somebody for the occasion. And recently been gathering coach, my fellow students and people.

So again, always somebody who can help with whatever is going on. Obviously it's all online at the moment. And I, my, my tribe would be overseas and I would be traveling under normal circumstances. So thank heavens for zoom and such like, cause it allows us all to stay in touch. My challenge comes from the continued learning. The people in those small, I like small groups. I don't like large, large sessions because then you really get that.

one -to -one feedback and that personal learning and growth opportunities. But the real challenge comes from my tribe outside the coaching circles because they keep me grounded. And they're the ones who remind me if I'm going into coach speak or getting boring and put everything into perspective. So it's often those people who don't know really what I'm doing or how it works, who will just come up with those questions that you sit back and think, hmm, I need to keep that in mind.

Yeah. So, so that's, yeah. And I'm very interested in this coaching triad, Sarah. That's something I'm going to have to look into because I don't have that sort of support and feedback. And I think that. moving forward is something going to be very valuable. So thanks for that. Yeah, I mean, I could recommend the Association for Coaching, Coaching Tribe, that was where I did them. And they offer them all the time.

And there are some niche health ones, you know, health and social care ones, or you can go to a general one. And they were amazing. I would highly recommend those. It is worth the membership fee just for that alone. Right. I'll have to, well, I have been a member because my qualification gave me a membership of that, but it's coming to an end now. So that's a good reason to look at it again. Thank you. I just say, you've just reminded me, actually, I'm part of an ICF local charter group.

And they also, we also have triad coaching there as well. So even if the group doesn't offer it, it's something that you can set up and ask for, because lots of coaches. are often very keen to take part in it. And we've developed a set of ground rules that go with it and stuff that we can share if that would be useful if you're going to start your own. Fantastic. Thank you. So Gary, where's your tribe?

I have a particularly interesting cohort from Henry Business School, which we call the Goose Cohort, because in our very first on -site, you know, multi -day coaching session, a goose flew into the power lines outside Penny Business School and took the power out for 40 hours. So we did our training in the dark and cold. And so it created a very tight bond with that group. And so I think maybe more than otherwise would have happened. That group has stayed together very, very closely.

And we do do from time to time groups who fish and things like that. And there's a weekly reading group where we get together on Zoom or sort of Google video, and we'll sit in silence together, reading a book or, you know, something out of our shelf, and then sharing some insight from it. So that's been that's been very helpful. And I'm also, I, every week, I'm on a clubhouse group, which is actually a group of mainly US strengths coaches, but many of them also ICF coaches.

And we often have a member of the senior leadership of Gallup that comes there as well. And it's very interesting just hearing different people's perspectives, not on individual coaching challenges, but just keeping you reflecting in the way that, you know, others have talked about that continuous learning. And I think the third area, none of which I think gives me the level of challenge that I really need over time.

But there is an element of challenge, which is simply, I still feel I'm living off my training, that I'm aware of a long list of things that I want to get better at doing. And, you know, I feel reasonably comfortable at the moment that I've got so many things coming out of my own reflection on my coaching that I want to develop and grow with. And I have some books on my shelf like Simplifying Coaching and Challenging Coaching that kind of stare at me every day. Yeah, I know what's in there.

And I know that I didn't do that. So actually, that sort of self challenge from the training and the memories of the training, it still lasts for me. But definitely in the next year, one of my clear goals is to develop a new probably one to one supervision relationship with the with the right person who who is the right sort of partnership with with me for where I'm looking to go.

And I think up to now, it's been something that I've been thinking about doing, but I feel as though almost I still have enough material that I'm working on simply from the core coaching and the experience that I'm building. But I think that's going to become more and more important as we progress. forward to have that one -on -one supervision relationship. I always know who my next supervisor is going to be.

Not that I have any intention of stopping with my current supervisor, but I always know who the one after will be because I think that really matters in terms of it will be somebody who's different and it will be somebody who challenges me from a different place and where I can engage a different part of myself. But I would just commend to you at the beginning of your coaching journey is to choose two. Choose this one.

and know why you've chosen this one and also start thinking about who's the next one going to be and what is the reason that you're going to choose them and what is it that's going to make, you know, what's the value that that relationship is going to bring to the work that you do? Because I think that helps us be quite edgy. And it also helps me learn the timing. Because the supervisor after the current one is going to...

I'm going to experience this quite brutal compared to the supervisor that I have at the moment, because the supervisor I have at the moment, I have for a different reason. And I'm aware that when I need to really significantly up that part of the relationship, then that's where I'm going to go. I think that's so interesting.

And the other tip that I have is don't get too much one -to -one support because then you just dilute it and you don't know which bit you're taking to which person and you can get yourself in the right doodle. So, yeah, I think too much reflection is too much reflection. So what's enough reflection for you at this stage in your journey in terms of how you do what you do? We can get too wrapped up in our own reflection sometimes, can't we? And not see forward and move forward.

Yeah. So I'm really interested and we've kind of started going into this, which is what have you been told and taken absolutely no notice of? So you're describing things that you were told that you sort of went with and then changed your mind about, but what have you been told that you never took any notice of?

I'm really struggling with that question because I'm thinking of, I think typically my pattern has been to have been told something early on and then gone partly down the road and then taken a U -turn, come back again, and thinking, yeah, that's not for me. And I think I've probably absorbed a lot of stuff. that I, maybe I'm more confident now to think, yeah, no, that's not for me. So to be much more discerning as I see things, yeah, that looks interesting, but it's not for me.

Whereas before, I mean, I remember joining the Chamber of Commerce and having this whole kind of sales pitch coming to me about, you know, why this would be really good before I even knew what I was pitching or what I was turning up at one of these breakfast meetings and just thinking what, you know, with your three minute pitch, I thought I had no idea what I was going to say.

So I... In hindsight, I wouldn't have taken any notice of that because I'm coming back to your point, Claire and Mary's is that sense of just needing to know yourself first before you step off it. But I can't, yeah, I can't think that there's nothing, nothing comes that holds something. I've just ignored that. I imagine we've all been told to join networking breakfasts.

And I used to do talks at them, which never got me any work, but it did increase my confidence about being able to talk about pretty much anything. But just before lockdown, the first lockdown, I can remember being in a hotel and there was a networking meeting going on in the other side of the breakfast area. And I was watching them and it was really interesting watching them from a distance when years and years ago I was watching them from being amongst them.

And I was sitting there thinking, I wonder how much work you've got that enables you to come here and... it becomes an echo chamber, I think, because everybody says the same thing and basically it's people who are hungry for business. And I think there are better places to be to get work than in places where people are hungry for business. Because then often I think you get work and they don't want to pay you.

So there's some kind of exchange which might give you some of those miles that you were talking about, Gail. But equally, My issue about all of the business building stuff is that you can get very busy and believe you're doing a great piece of business building work when actually you're not really doing anything.

It's like the, I must perfect my website and I will spend, you know, 150 hours perfecting my website when actually your LinkedIn profile is good enough because people will, people only want to know if you're real. and want to check you out. They don't, you know, you don't need a big solid thing, I don't think. One of the things I did the other day, just to jump in is I actually, and it felt so, so liberating.

I actually closed down my Facebook page because I'm not, I'm not using this for my business. I felt real pressure to feel like I had to be posting something on it. And I just thought, it's not, it's not serving me. That isn't where my... where my clients are, I linked in, I use LinkedIn, but I just, and it felt such a relief, because it felt much more honest to me and where I was coming from. But yeah, really interesting, isn't it? The sort of U -turns we take, but. But U -turns are good.

What about you, Mayuri? I think I've been trying to think about what it is that, like, I was told that I really should do and I haven't. Follow through. I think there's something about pricing there for me. Like, you know, you're really told, like, just think about your pricing, think about what value you're offering, all that kind of stuff, which is great.

But when you're early doors and you're at that point of, I want to get my first credential, actually, there is a point where you think, what exchanges am I going to make? And what might be beneficial for me? And so, In contrast, actually, I love having my website. I've kind of, I'm thankful that I could make my website. So I love learning about anything really. So as I said, I was talking about earlier and I'm a bit techie and I'm a bit geeky. So I kind of started building my own website.

But what that's led to is that I've been able to build my husband's coaching website for him, which is miles better than mine. But, Like it's been great. And I suppose the last thing for me, like actually sometimes exchanges are okay, like, but you really have to think about what the value of them are. So for me, I got some branding shots done by someone I knew who also went to some coaching and exchange and that worked really well.

So yeah, and some proofreading, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So. what do you really need for your business and what would be really helpful for you and then think about maybe who you could approach. But that's maybe the bit I've ignored initially. And I'm wondering now whether that might be a little bit silly, actually, that I should have thought about the pricing element a little bit earlier. But it is something, if I'm really honest, I did ignore.

Pricing is a really interesting one, isn't it? Because it depends where you're coming from as to what you even believe about pricing. And there's a whole voice in the marketplace that goes, well, you can charge a fortune. And I personally, I can't do that because I don't think it's ethical. And I notice that we are getting contacted by quite a lot of coaches from around the world. who aren't earning anything like we would earn here, even if you're just starting out as a coach.

And they're going to coaches who are going, if you want to do my program, I'm going to charge you this many thousand pounds or dollars. And they are sacrificing everything to pay for it. Now, I think that's not ethical. So my stance is that an hour of my time is worth an hour of your time, pretty much.

So if I'm coaching a leader in an organization, I will do a mental maths to say, so what's a fair rate for a leader in this organization when your salary is this much and then my fees will be this much. But then if I'm working with a mum who's just returning to work, who's not getting any income at all, and who hasn't got a huge resource from maternity leave, then I'll make a different decision on the number. But I know there's a school of thought that goes, well, you're under pricing.

But I think that pricing and ethics for me go very close together. Yeah. And I think there's a sense of comfort as the person who's charging that money. People in the marketing world always talk about, yeah, but you need to be a little bit uncomfortable. And I'm like, well, that's maybe one piece of advice. Do you really? Or is it just so that you can eke out another penny? And then...

Talking on your point, Claire, actually, I'm in the privileged position that I've got another job and right now coaching isn't my primary income. And so I can think about these things and I don't need to like go all out and say, I'm gonna charge masses of amounts because I've got a payment mortgage through this. Then the ethics become how you treat your clients when you're, feeling anxious about money as you go towards this thing.

And what does that mean for your client relationship and all those kinds of things? So yeah, ethics definitely comes into money, but then it also comes into any interaction you might have. Like how will you treat the person with less money or more money? What difference would that make? Yeah, absolutely. It's a really interesting one. What do you think, Gail? I just made me think then. I because I've been doing all this associate work, I don't have to talk about money.

And, and then recently, I've had a few direct clients come through. And I remember talking in supervision and one of my peer groups, how uncomfortable I found the chemistry meeting and the kind of, you know, the kind of contracting and that that kind of initial discussion because I was, I was almost fronting, this is me rather than the hiding behind another organization. And it was a real challenge for me.

And I've done a few of those now, just the last three or four months really that I've had a few of those conversations. And I'm from kind of being really uncomfortable with it, I'm starting to feel comfortable with it now. And I've had some people who have followed through and I'm coaching. And I've had some people who have almost like, yeah, they've been... Like I don't, the price has been the point of, I don't want to do it or, you know, that it's, they've not come back.

And I'm actually rather than, and I think a few months ago, I would have been in that position, I charged too much. It was too, or whatever, but I'm much more comfortable now kind of thinking, yeah, well that's okay. That's their choice. That's my choice because that's how much the value is of what I'm doing and what I need to earn from that. hour, two hours, whatever the slot is. That actually if I did it, if I went back, will you do it for this or whatever?

That's just not, that's not my value either. So there's something for me about kind of starting to feel comfortable with my value of what that is. And I love your way, Claire, of having that sliding scale. I think that's a really good way of looking at it. So, yes, this is really pertinent to me, because it's something that's been live the last couple of months, really, in terms of those more difficult conversations.

Because we don't go into coaching, do we, to start to have business conversations with somebody? And it is, it makes it, I find it quite difficult, those first chemistry calls, because of that. Yeah, and one of the things that I find slightly tricky is that, because often I have transformational conversations with people quite quickly. They end up paying me a lot less than they would be paying somebody with whom they weren't having a transformational conversation when they had 10 sessions.

So there's a thing, but then I still have an ethical issue about it. So I did a coaching session the other day, he wanted four, I wasn't sure he needed four. And... the transformation came in the very first part of session one and we don't need to ever meet again. I'm sure we will at some point in the future for some other reason, but they got the whole thing they needed. And I do pay as you go on that basis.

And afterwards I was thinking quite a lot about actually, should you have charged him, you know, should you just say upfront, we'll charge you for four sessions and it'll be up to four sessions. Then I thought, I cannot with integrity look somebody in the eye and go, You've had 20 minutes, but you're still going to pay for four hours. So I'm never going to drive a Porsche, but that's okay.

It's really funny because I think on that same pricing thing, part of what I've been thinking about is, is there something about group programs or a specific program? So you're actually talking about a set of sessions which build on each other. which maybe is different from one -to -one work where the transformation comes in 20 minutes because you're talking about a series of or a body of work. And I think that that then changes.

And obviously there's all the work that and I think that's that's an ethical thing for me as well. Like quite often I see small business owners, especially quite a few of my friends are who devalue their work quite significantly because they don't take into account any of the prep work. they've done, any of the stuff they've had to think about, any of their training, any of the reading they're doing around the subject, all of that kind of stuff.

And that quite often means that they're actually undervaluing themselves and then also on the cusp of becoming resentful of their clients because the clients aren't actually paying them what they're really putting in and the clients don't understand the value of it either. And full -time coaches can't coach full -time. Absolutely. So for me, I do two days one -to -one a week. But if I did three days one -to -one a week, that would be enough.

So that would mean if I was doing one -hour sessions, my maximum number of people per week would be 18, which I've never done because I do a mixture of training because it's a different energy. in the group than it is in the one -to -one. So for me that makes a nice balance. But you need to be pricing on the fact that your full week is this many hours, not 40.

And I think that we undervalue when people are independent coaching practitioners, the fact that if you work in an organization, your prep is part of your salary and your follow up is part of your salary and your admin is part of your salary. And then suddenly in coaching, we think we just get, you know, that the payment is for the hour. But actually, the payment is, as you said, Myri, it's for the whole thing around it. So getting that right.

And it's not an exact science again, but having a bit of a sense of that can be a really useful thing. And I think that's where the idea of different charging models for different people actually comes in really helpful, comes in really helpfully. Yeah, because if you can charge more to one client who is willing to accept it, then you can afford to not charge as much to the other. Yeah. And that's... Go ahead.

I was going to say it's a nice way of getting a really lovely blend of clients as well, isn't it? So you can still be doing some of the kind of real frontline stuff with people who probably need coaching as much, if not more so, than your executives and other folks.

Yeah. Yeah, so we do coaching with young people and that's subsidised by the team coaching that our guys do because they get paid much more for that, which means that we can charge out less for the youth coaching and then the one subsidises the other, which I like because, you know, it's the same work. It's not that it's better work if they earn a lot of money and you get paid a lot and it's not such good work when they can't pay. It's all the same work.

Thinking about the thing you've taken no notice of. I can answer that one. Coach speak doesn't work. Only with coaches. I mean, you learn all these wonderful things and terminology and everything else. And then you get thrown out into the world to find your clients. And you start trying to talk to people about coaching and they don't have a clue. So you have to reinvent the whole thing, how to market yourself as a professional service provider and how to talk about what you do without.

Speaking coach speak. I think that's a really good reflection. And I remember in my coach training, the part where we were told about different flavors of coaching and we had to identify ourselves in those flavors. And I kind of saw myself somewhere in there, but I've never, as you're saying, Caroline, I've never used that language when talking to a client, you know, being a systemic coach or a Gestalt coach or a human centered coach, it wouldn't make sense to them.

It hardly still makes sense to me. But so I think that's a really good reflection. I mean, nobody cares, do they, Gary? What they want are outcomes and solutions. They don't want processes. We're taught processes and things, and that's of no interest to our clients at all.

I see the thing that I use all the time with coaches is actually the very first hour of the very first day of my coaching training, which was sitting in Henley Business School, looking at whiteboards, looking at the difference between counselling, coaching, mentoring. line management, performance management, consulting, that I find incredibly powerful because that really resonates with the coachee. But the whiteboard talking about different psychological schools, I've never used yet.

I may come back to it. Maybe I come back to it. I think it's relevant with other coaches, but not with your general clients. Yeah, there's something about speaking English. And I don't know if you listened to the podcast with Julian Mack the other day, but he was saying, But the tricky thing is that we are selling a process, but you can't speak about it like that. But actually, the outcome of the process is entirely dependent on the work that the client or the thinker does.

But if we oversell, they might not get that because they might not be willing, able. inclined to do the good work that needs to happen. So it becomes quite a tricky thing, but I am with you. We have to speak English. Sarah, you look like you're about to say something. Honesty. Go on, Sarah Brooks. Sorry. One of the things that I was just thinking in answer to your question is I've been told to offer to help people with my coaching and I'm supposed to tell people what I do and how I do it.

And, you know, I can help you. And actually I haven't done that because, and I'm just listening to the conversation we're having and I'm wondering whether partly the reason I haven't done it is I haven't worked out how to talk about it. in a way that makes sense to my client. It makes perfect sense to me what I do and how I do it. But I would just wonder if I haven't quite worked out how to talk about it. So I am not doing it. I actively avoid it.

That's one of the exact things that we're never taught in a coaching qualification, how to actually tell people what we do without telling them we're coaches. And that's something I've learned since I did my coaching qualification that we need to learn how to market the business and market ourselves in a different way. So you need the two side by side or one after the other, because having that coaching qualification does not make a business.

You have to build the business and it has to be in a way that people understand. And people all think they know what coaching is about, but they don't have a clue. And audition is better than description, I would say. So saying, why don't we just have a conversation for five minutes and then you'll experience what it's like. And if you can right size the work so it really fits in five minutes and they get a massive shift, then they totally get it. Because I've been coaching for over 30 years.

I still find it difficult to describe because it's different for everybody. Sarah Klein, you had something to say there. I was thinking what you said, Caroline, in terms of nobody cares. And I was thinking about the other things that coaches do and certainly I did to start with, which was get very exercised by what's my business values, what's my website going to say and all of that stuff. And I can see you smiling and it's... I think nobody cares about that.

No one really cares what your business name is or how your website looks or what your brand colors are. But that's something that I spend quite a lot of time thinking about to start with and actually avoiding some of the things we've been talking about, which is how about you tell people how you can help them with a particular problem? What's the issues that you're trying to help them solve? And I distracted myself by thinking about brown colors for a long time. It's easy to keep busy, isn't it?

Doing those business things and not actually going out there and getting clients and helping people and finding that niche, the people you actually want to work with and talking directly to them about your ideal client. If you can actually describe your ideal client and your messaging and how you talk is directed at them and their specific problems. it makes marketing and finding clients so much easier.

Our opening moment for me was when I looked at my web stats to see how many visitors a week were coming to my website. And it was something like one or possibly two or three in an amazing week. And of course, mostly they're unlikely to even be human. So they're just hits on the website. So I, like you Sarah, let go of the idea of brand colors being my dominant business growth driver.

So what I started to do, think about my website doing was providing something that helped accelerate the conversation with the client. So I created a page where I just wrote some text about what coaching is. And I put up one of the ICF videos. And actually, and in doing that, I realized that I didn't need to say why I was going to be an amazing coach or what coaching was going to give them. It was more describing the distinction between coaching and other types of conversations.

So, you know, what you might notice me do is this kind of thing as opposed to, you know, this is going to change your life and you know, you've got accountability, so on. So I, I now, if I send an email to a client and say, you know, let's have a conversation about coaching, but go and have a look at this page beforehand, just to understand a bit more about what in principle coaching is. There's no surprises when you come to the conversation.

And then as Claire, as you say, you know, a little five minutes experience of What does it feel like when I just don't say anything in response to the thing you said and you feel, crikey, I've got to do some more thinking here. If you hate that experience, then coaching is not for you. And if you found it really interesting, then coaching could be for you.

And it's interesting to get away from that idea of trying to push coaching and sell coaching to more evoking people's awareness of even what coaching's process is. So really interesting. Yeah. Because if we're facilitating somebody's thinking, got to want to think. I have a coaching client at the moment who is in my former line of work and far more senior than I ever got to in that space.

So I found it quite a daunting idea that we could be in the sort of dance of coaching where I feel like a lot of the way I think he's probably also going to think that way because of some of the elements of our shared background. And then he said to me quite recently, how challenging he finds the coaching experience. Because he said, I've done this to my clients, to companies I've worked with over many, many years. I've never asked myself these questions. And he said, I find it really hard.

And actually that was fascinating to see that somebody where, it almost to me felt as I wasn't sure that I was going to add value to him. And actually the coaching process added. value to him, because it created a space for him to think it's exactly that thing. So we don't add any value. No, no. It's the process that adds all the value. And it's that space that happens between us. And I think when we are trying to add too much value, then we fall over, because then actually, we're not coaching.

Because we're, we're too busy adding value. There's a quote in John Whittington's systemic coaching book, by but Hellenga, which haunts me every day when I think about coaching and the quote is, have no intention especially to help. And every time I'm in a coaching session, I need to reflect even more, even more, even more on that quote. Yeah, yeah, that's really important, isn't it? That's one of my mantras. Yeah, it's extraordinary.

And it's the difference, isn't it, between being helpful, which is about my need to be helpful and being useful, which is about what actually do we need to do so that it serves you well in order for you to grow and develop and to move on. It's also interesting, sorry, Gary, you said something there about he used to do it with others, but had never thought of asking those questions himself. I mean, that's the whole point of coaching, isn't it? We can't coach ourselves.

We can't see what we can't see. So it's so important that even as coaches, we have a coach because we just don't see what we don't see. I think that's really true. And I think that, because I do quite a lot of work in the US as well as in the UK.

And I think I notice on small numbers, but I think it is quite consistent that in the UK, I still find a lot of clients and not... that they're coming for the first time to think about developing themselves, where in the US, because it's so much more in the culture that people invest and spend money on themselves in various different ways.

It's an easier conversation, because they're already kind of there in going, I want to develop, and I know that I need people around me to support me in that journey. And could you help me? In the UK, you're still having conversation of is that even an interesting thing to do? Before you get to is it you and is it now and all those kinds of the question. So that's that's only my own personal reflection from client conversations. But that's the I think I agree with you.

I think that's really interesting. And that means that the conversation we need to have needs to be different. And we need to think about that in advance. So how do you choose your CPD? How do you decide which book to read or which course to go on or indeed which course not to go on and which book not to read? Sarah Klein. Really interesting question. I think in the last year, I've chosen things that I have been interested in. And I've either I've been interested in them for a business reason.

So I did EQI because I had disc already. I wanted another tool. I'm particularly interested in emotional intelligence. It was a very clear business reason as to why I chose that. And because I think it will be useful going forward. I've done other things because I just fancied the sound of them. I like I did the artist's way course earlier this year. And I'm from a business point of view. I probably didn't see a direct correlation, but I knew that I am very creative.

I sort of lost that side of me. And I saw it as a bit of a hobby. But once I did it, I realized actually it's fundamental to my business. And in terms of being in flow, that I have some time being creative. So I either do it because it's a clear business reason or I do it because I just fancy it.

I think going forward as in for this year coming up, my word of the year is intentional and I'm going to be much more intentional about if I choose to do CPD, what time am I going to spend afterwards implementing it, consolidating it, because I have a dreadful habit of wandering from one thing to the other because it sounds lovely. without spending the time doing the consolidation. So that's my challenge to myself next year. Be intentional and spend time consolidating. Fantastic.

I heard somebody say once, which I loved, why do you want to read that book? What have you done with the books, with the learning that you've already had? Or what have you done with the learning you've already had from a course? Because there's something, isn't there, about using it well? Sorry, I was just picking up on a point that intentional because I've read so many books and I look at them on the bookshelf and actually haven't put any of it into practice.

It's been seriously interesting, but it sits on the bookshelf and it's not really helping me move forward. So this next year definitely has to be a lot more intentional and have a purpose. But I think lockdown and the last two years have given us time. to sit back a little bit and do some of those things that we've not had time for in the past or would have been seen as a luxury. But yeah, moving forward, hopefully we're busier outside and it has to be more intentional.

My learning journey started about seven years ago, the current one, where I started thinking about presence. And then I was learning more about presence. I was choosing things to go to where I knew that I would experience learning about presence. And then that led into learning about power. And that's led to where I am now, which is learning about privilege, which is also about power. And it's also about presence. So sometimes it's a thing, I think, and sometimes it's a theme.

So that yeah, that's interesting. Sarah Brooks, how do you choose yours? Well, OK, so rather eclectic methods, I think then. So if it's an audio book, because I've got an audible subscription and it throws suggestions for me. So quite a few of them have come from that. They're not all good, of course, but some of them are really brilliant. And that is how I discovered Brene Brown. So, yeah, audio book. conversations and relationships, I suppose.

So people might tell me about a good book or a good course they've been on, but I have got very canny. And I think this thing is in my mind all the time, consume or create. And when I first started, I was like, yeah, right. Okay. I'll do that. I'll do that. I was signing up for all these things and going to webinars and downloading a book. And then I'm like, I don't like it. I don't know why, I don't know why that person thought it would be good because it didn't resonate with me at all.

And so I started to understand now what I'm looking for and how I can decide whether that is likely to be of use to me or not. But I thought what Caroline said was really interesting actually, because I would argue that even if you think something isn't useful, it is because it goes in. And once you've read it or you've heard it, you can't unread it or un -hear it. And it is in there.

So I don't, I kind of look back and I think, well, I've done what I've done and it all went in, whether I'm aware of it or not. And it will all pop out in some way, whether I'm aware of it or not. Accreditation. So another way, yeah. So will it give me CCE use my PCC, ICF accreditation. So I've got my ACC this year, you know, which was amazing. hard work, but amazing. And I'm so chuffed to bits I've got it, but now I'm also thinking about the next stage.

And so part of it is, is that a good return on investment? So what is it going to give me? Is it going to give me something? And it doesn't have to be financial return, but it has to be something that allows me to say that it was definitely worth the cost.

Yeah. And I think if you're going from ACC to PCC, if the International Coaching Federation is your tribe, then there's something about if you need those extra 65 hours, what substantive piece of training can you get that will actually progress you from where you are and enable you to go deeper and deeper over time, which is one option or another bucket is another option. Now the ICF are now saying they want it to deepen.

And there's value in buckets, but the question is, what's the right thing for you in this season? Yeah. Is it, is it deeper or wider? Yeah. And also seeing through, you know, we talked about coach speak at the beginning, didn't we? You've got to really be able to see through what they talk about and what they promise and decide actually, is it something I don't already know? Because I think we all recognize, don't we? And Gary mentioned it right at the beginning was that.

You know these things so you don't call them gestalt or system, you know them. We live on the earth, we know what they are, but we don't necessarily know the name. And so you sign up for a course and it says, I'm going to teach you how to do this and this. And you think it's like, my gosh, I didn't know about that. And then you do it and you realize, well, I knew all that. I just didn't call it that.

So there is something, isn't there, about being able to see beneath the lid and work out actually, am I going to learn something new or not? Yeah. And talk to people who've done it. Yeah, because that gives you really good insight. I just had an email this week from somebody who said, I'm thinking of training as a coach supervisor and I'm asking lots of people, what was your experience?

And I think that's a great question because she's going to have some really good data and then she'll know the right questions to ask. I think the point about depth, not breadth is a really interesting one for me, like what I was saying earlier that focus and clarity for my client base is important.

And so I've intentionally chosen to only train in one sort of psychometric model, which for me is CliftonStrengths, because partly because it's the one I believe in more than the others, but also because I want to be an expert in it. I want to be one of the best people you could work with if you want to understand your strengths. I did my own strength assessment.

And that was interesting because for me, my number one strength is something called maximizer, which is about, I'm interested only if it's already good and it can become world class. And I'm not very interested in or engaged when it's broken and it needs fixing or it's okay and I can gradually improve it over time. It's about making it work class. So when I'm thinking about my future development, I'm thinking for me about depth, not breadth.

And from a commercial perspective, absolutely thinking about the kinds of clients I'd like to be working with over the next one, two, three years, and the kinds of things that might be interesting to bring into the conversation.

So for me, actually, the systemic coaching work is an area I'm really interested in because I don't want to do particularly sort of executive team coaching, but I, for some weird and wonderful reasons, I've got into the space of coaching within I'll try network families, which is a little bit like the dynamics of executive teams.

And as Sarah was saying, it's not that you don't know the principles of how that works, but having some simple and clear tools or exercise or frameworks that you can work through with people. And I've done a little bit of it in individual coaching sessions. It's seeing how very quickly something can sort of sync with your way of thinking, your way of coaching. And I found that has been a natural fit for me.

So something a little bit about going with your gut with what works with what you're already doing and what extends you and deepens what you're doing, which I like. Thank you, Caroline. my CPD, I'm well into this, NLP for coaching, which will last another, or at least another 12 weeks. So I'm focused on that and more from a personal development perspective than to be using it with clients because it, I'm still learning so much about myself through this coaching journey.

So I'm just enjoying that. and. I'm going to wait until that is coming to an end before I even look at anything else. It's easy to get distracted. So I'm determined this year to focus because I have been doing lots of different things over the last 12 months. And yeah, that's the books I read. And I agree with you, Sarah, that you learn something from all of them. I mean, things like the 12 week year and I always want to implement these things, but never quite get around to it.

Because yes, it sounds fascinating and useful and everything else, but it's not really me. So I think I'm going to be kind to myself for the next six months at least, certainly during the dark winter days here, and just do what I enjoy and just keep learning as much as I can. Thank you. Thank you. So my final question. is if you could say one thing to a coach who was just starting out, what would it be? So just a short one thing that you'd say to somebody who's starting out. Gary?

I think it's a great question. I think for me, it's, don't worry too much about whether or not you're a perfect coach, because none of us are perfect coaches, and particularly when we're starting out. And to become a better coach, you need just experience and volume of timing, coaching conversations. So I think if you can let go of the, of the worry about whether or not you're perfect, it will get you into more conversations, get you more experience. And that's how you develop your skills.

And I, and I talk a lot to coaches starting out where that's the thing that more than anything else they're hung up on. And once you let go of that and go, I know I'm not perfect and that's okay. I'm still allowed to go and have coaching conversations. That's the For me, that's the way to go. Totally. Thank you. Sarah Klein. I think for me, I think it's similar to Gary, really. Get on with it. Don't think that, I need to have this or I need to have that or that shiny thing. Just get on with it.

Yes, you will be a different coach in six months, 12 months, 18 months, but now is the time and you are enough and you know enough. Thank you. Trying to sing a song now enough is enough that I won't. Sarah Brooks. So I talk a lot about treasure maps when I do coaching and about working out what the treasure map is in our head and what are the boundaries of what we know. And so I would say to new coaches that this is a journey that will take you to the furthest edges of your mind.

If you want it to, it will enrich your lives in ways that are far greater than financial value. and that you will have so much energy and passion for life that it is just so worth it. Even in the down days, just so worth it because it pays so much in rewards. Thank you. Caroline. I'm going to be terribly practical and business -like here and say, get yourself a business, how to set up a coaching business mentor.

because coaching is wonderful and we're in it because we love it and we believe in it. But convincing everybody out there that they will benefit from it is one of the greatest challenges a new coach has. So get yourself a business mentor. Yeah, actually, yeah, because becoming a successful coach is about what you do in the room and about the bit you do in the back office. as much as it's a balance.

It's the scales, you've got coaching qualification, and you've got to have that business qualification, or mindset as well. Standing where you are now, but further down the journey, what would you say to them? But for me, it would just be around finding your own path, and just spend some time really finding and exploring what that path is, letting the path emerge, all of that sort of stuff. And it would be about just watch out for the kind of false.

I suppose you need to go down a few false paths, don't you, as well, and do U -turns to find your own path. But there's something around, I think, about enjoy the journey, I suppose. Is there something around that? Because I've had such pleasure in in the learning from this. None of it feels like it's been, you know, even things that I've done and been on that I sort of think, it's interesting. I didn't get an awful lot out of it, but there's something.

And so, yeah, I suppose it's follow your own path and enjoy the journey and finding it, kind of emerging it, I suppose. And the bit that you didn't say there that I heard you say before was find your tribe. Yes, yes. because that gives you strength for the journey. Definitely.

Otherwise, if you expand the metaphor, I've got this image now from what you just said of you're walking down a road and you're on your own and you've got all these shiny shops and people standing on the shop doorstep going, you must have this and you must have this and you must have this and you must have this. And it feels like when you've got your tribe around you, you can be a bit lighter about the demands that are coming in.

Yeah. That's a lovely word as well, Claire, the lightness, there's something about a lightness to it as well, and to carry it lightly and forget the shoulds and, you know, musts and all of those things as well, I think. And that's why I think it's important not to burn your bridges until the coaching side of your business is sustainable, because... It's not like if you've got a mortgage to pay and you've got to get this many clients in this month in order to pay the mortgage. Hmm, I agree.

It's certainly talking about your point, Claire, about blending the coaching with other things. So also I do sort of training and consultancy stuff as well. And it all works really well. But I've really been conscious of trying to sort of get the income streams from different places to try and keep that more sustainable. Yeah, I sold books to start with children's books. Because because it was a very low stress way of just getting some money in to take the pressure off.

And I think the other thing is don't borrow money to invest in any kind of training or development. Because if you do that, you're just going to be, you're just going to be. robbing this to pay for something else. So if you're at all able to pay upfront or pay in instalments or pay for something so that it's coming out of current income rather than the income that you're getting from coaching needs to pay back into the past. Cause that makes a real tricky thing, I think.

Yeah, I've just got one more that while I'm just on a roll, sorry, and then I'll shut up. Go for it. There was one for me around the absolute value of accreditation and, you know, like professional accreditation and some sort of qualification to legitimize you and give you credibility compared to because it's such a sort of sharp pull out there, isn't it? And it's something that actually then gives you gives you proper professional.

Professional identity, I think, is the other thing that, and that for me has opened the pathway for associate work and that sort of stuff, which has helped to build up. I wouldn't have been able to do that without that accreditation. And that's about credibility. And it's also about accountability, isn't it? Because with accreditation comes a connection with a professional body. Then you are held to account around your professional ethics.

That makes it safer for your clients to know that there's a complaints procedure that they can use. if they need to. Otherwise, I think maybe customers don't recognise the risk that they take in going with someone who's not accredited, which is not just about the quality of the conversation, because there are non -accredited coaches who coach brilliantly, but it's about the safety of all those other things.

I went for my flu jab the other day and... she was very nice and clearly she hadn't been doing vaccinations for very long, the pharmacist, so she explained it all to me in huge detail and then she said, are you ready for me to inject? By which time of course I'm really, tense! You know, if they're experienced they just jab you, don't they? Anyway, she then said, Here is a copy of our complaints procedure and she circled the address and the phone number.

She said, this is the number you need to ring and this is the address that you need to write to if you've got a complaint against me. And I said, unless you're going to do something really weird in the next minute, I won't be taking this leaflet away with me. But I did feel reassured that she was explaining to me where I could go if I wasn't happy. I think she kind of over explained. But actually that gives you a huge sense of relief, doesn't it?

That you know, if something goes wrong here, I know what I'm going to do. Rather than if something goes wrong here, I've no idea what to do. And I've also no idea if it's gone wrong or not. So, yeah, so even when you get the entry level accreditation, I think that that says, I am serious about this journey. And I think that that acts as a rubber stamp. as you're getting your hours and getting your qualifications or whatever to go for the other levels of accreditation.

I just think it says, I'm nailing my colors to the mast here and I'm saying that I'm serious about my development and accountability. Yeah, I don't think I've ever thought of it like that. I think I've always thought about it from the point of view of it means the quality of the conversation is at a certain standard. But I never really thought of it from the point of view of the client. Actually, I've got somewhere to go. There is an ethics code behind all of this, right?

So, yeah, that's really helpful. And actually, because coaching is co -created, sometimes it won't be at that standard. Because we're just not able to get the partnership working for them to do this good work. And maybe they don't want to do this good work. And if they don't want to do the work, The conversation will probably not be at that standard, but it still says these are the standards that I work towards. But I guess the pharmacist probably has bad days too.

Or people who come for the injection who resist so much that then that becomes an unpleasant experience between the two of them. Not the time comparing coaching to vaccination, just so we all look clear on that one. So. Mayuri, what would you say to a coach who is just starting out? As you initially asked that question, the first thing that came to mind is be kind to yourself.

Like really at the heart of this whole thing, you can go into it all guns blazing thinking like I did actually holding my hands up here. I need to have perfect conversations all the time. I cannot make mistakes. You know, I must. perform to this exacting standard all the time. And actually in the end, it affects your conversation with this human who is in front of you because they're not a robot and nor are you. Like you can't be so harsh to yourself.

I'm going, I'm like fisting, bumping fists at the moment just to say like, it just causes a clash. It's an internal clash which will come out in the conversation which will affect the relationship you're trying to build. And then, in turn actually knock your confidence even more. So I would just say, go at your own pace, stop the comparison between all the people who are around you.

And that's for me, part of being kind, like, you know, most of the time when you train, you go through a cohort, you're all doing this stuff together. You're like doing the exercises and the tools and all of that stuff together. And then you arrive in this big white world. and you forget that everyone has their own life. Everyone has their own pace of life. Everyone has their own life circumstances happening.

You know, like I would never have said, you know, three, four months after I finished my course, that I'd have, I've had a, I would have had a flood to a house, moved out, found out I was pregnant, and then a pandemic hit. Like never. You know, someone had asked me when that course finished, what was coaching going to look like for me? That is not part of my story, but it's there. It's true.

It actually makes me a better coach now, but I can only say that by looking back with kindness and looking at my life with kindness. And I had to come to that because I was seeing colleagues of mine who were getting their first level of... credentialing, like within a few months of finishing the course, I was going, I'm nowhere near that. And I was talking to people and they were saying, yeah, we're charging this much an hour.

I'm not thinking about the type of clients they're going for, the type of work they're doing. The fact that these were their full -time businesses and I was doing this alongside my day job. And I think that's the other thing like, think of your own circumstances and this is probably why I would, this is what we advocate for coaching, isn't it? You think about the person in front of you. So think about yourself as one of your clients.

How kind would you be to them when they were talking to you about setting up this business and how these things are going wrong and everyone around them is doing X, Y and Z. Like, be kind. Yeah. Cause you're a unique human. I think that perfect thing drives me absolutely bonkers. So I was listening the other day to a recording of somebody who really needed to strip out their coaching and simplify.

And the first recording that I heard them do, they worked so very hard and the thinker didn't do any work at all much. So we were listening last week to another recording and everything had changed. It was co -created. It was absolutely beautiful. And the coach asked them a question which was not grammatical. And when I'm listening to recordings with people, I notice what I notice in the chat so that we can do it live as we're watching the thing going on.

And I wrote, listen to what she just said. The insight I've just had has changed my life. And the coach wrote, I should have said this and not that. And I went, I don't care what you said, because she doesn't remember what you said. And of course it wasn't grammatical, but it doesn't matter because you just needed to do the thing that led her into the insight. She won't, she will only remember the insight.

Yeah. Like I think as I always think about it in the sense of you need to be visible enough that you support your client to move on, but you need to be invisible enough that they don't remember you at the end. Absolutely. I like that. I like that as well. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. So the one I'm just that sense of, yeah. Yeah. I'm sitting at the moment with, we need to be, to be not in control and we need to be not out of control, which is the same kind of thing, isn't it?

Yeah. And that's a, that's a tension. I, it's interesting because I think that you come out of your coach training, having struggled at the beginning to understand what coaching was and to move from trying to ask questions that fix to actually recognising you're facilitating the thinking of someone else. And then all the people you're practising on also know that.

So they then become really easy to coach apart from the ones who don't want to bring that many things to fulfil the requirements of how many coaching sessions you do. And they run out of things to think about and wish they weren't on the course at all. And they're probably brilliant coaches. But the tricky thing is that coaching a coach isn't real. No. Because they know how to play. And that makes it easier and different for you.

And when you're coaching somebody who's not a coach, they don't know how to play. And therefore it feels very different and it's experienced as being very different. And people go, what do you mean by that strange question? Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. It's that, I think once I used the question, something like, how does that serve you? And you know, you use that in a coaching context and most people understand what do you mean? Like, how does it serve you? is it helpful or is it not?

But you'd never think the service was almost like a jargon word in coaching. But it is. Yeah. Yes, so I think my top tip would be speak English or whatever is your the language in which you're coaching. Yeah. There's something really lovely as well of when you feel you're confident enough in a coaching session to say, sorry, that didn't make any sense at all, did it?

Or, you know, when you actually say, I'm just completely lost with train of thought now, whatever it is, you know, that when you can actually say that without carrying the kind of, or the internal kind of fright about what you're going to say next or whatever. And, and, and that's a lovely. A lovely thing is meant to to again it's that lightness isn't it to be able to to carry it lightly and not feel that you have to be perfect. You know that takes time.

Sorry, something that's just popped into my head and was about the reflective practice journal, you know, like most courses. You kind of do this reflective practice journal and it's a temptation that when you're free as such, like you don't need to do that anymore. But actually I found that it's one of the most valuable tools, particularly in those early days when you are kind of suddenly not in the confines of someone's observing you and all that kind of stuff.

But being kind to yourself in that moment as well. So like write your reflection as you do it, however you do it at the time, then wait for some feedback from your client and then try and do the reflection again. And I've found like when I try and do the two step reflection, just rather than the one step, I'm much more rounded in my reflection. And it's far more beneficial than here's all the stuff I did wrong, which is what I tend to write down first.

I love the idea of feedback that says one thing I did well and even better next time would look like this. Cause I think there's no point in going into all of the detail of it. Gail, I want to pick up on what you said about making mistakes. So I would say probably in every coaching session I do, somebody will say to me, what was that question you just asked? And I'll go, I have no idea. Because it came from what I heard, saw or heard or sensed.

It was absolutely in the moment and I'm so not attached to it. I'm not bothering to remember it because if I bother to remember it, then I'm going to make them follow my hunch. So I'll ask it and drop it. And they're like, that was a really good question. What did you say? I don't know. Jung says, learn your theories as well as you can and put them aside when you touch the miracle of the living soul. Lovely.

And maybe it should be learn your theories as well as you can, hold them lightly and put them aside when you touch the miracle of the living soul. Because that's all we're doing, human to human. What a journey we've been on thinking about what we're learning from the first year or two of coaching. Huge thank you to Mayuri Hargest, Gail Hudson, Caroline Tapkin. Gary Crotaz, Sarah Brooks and Sarah Klein. And their contact details will be in the show notes.

Do use what they've been sharing with you well and make it your own. If you want to dig deeper into setting up a coaching business, we have a module in the 3D shop called the Business of Coaching, where we're going to pop this as a free extra, but there's also some. some things to think about as you're setting up a coaching business if that would be useful to you. So I'm Claire Pedrick and you've been listening to The Coaching In.

If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time. You've been listening to The Coaching In. 3D Coaching's Virtual Pub. For more information, check out 3Dcoaching .com.