You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hi, welcome. It's Claire Pedrick here. And today I'm in the company of Jude Jennison. Jude's just written a second edition of her book, Leading Through Uncertainty, Making Disruptive Change Work for Humans, which is fabulous. And we're talking to Jude today. I'm in the pub and it looks like you're in the stables, Jude. am in the stables, yeah.
and talk about leading through uncertainty because I'm in the stables that I moved into four days ago. My goodness. Welcome to your new stables. Thank you. And the utter chaos that it's currently in. Wow. So tell us a bit about you and your journey, OK, so I run a leadership and team development company called Leaders by Nature, and I work with a herd of horses. to explore nonverbal communication in leaders and teams.
And prior to that, I worked for IBM for 17 years and did a whole range of leadership roles, never anything that was technical. So I honed the ability to lead teams of people to do the things that I couldn't do. And so I did that for 17 years and then left to set up a leadership and coaching business. And at the time I was terrified of horses. And I thought, I don't want to be frightened of anything. I'll just overcome my fear of horses and that will be it. And I'll carry on running my business.
And in the process of overcoming my fear, I discovered this way of working with horses to explore nonverbal behavior and communication. And what I discovered was that I got such rapid results with it that I went and trained in it. Actually not with any intention of doing it, but just out of curiosity. And clients came, so I did what any sane, sensible person does, bought a horse. And the rest is history. I've been doing it for 12 years now. And now you have how many horses? I have five.
And a big stables? Yeah, a big stables that we're growing into. So it's bigger than we currently need, but the plan is to expand the herd and expand the business. We're growing into it. At the moment, we're rattling around, but I'm sure we'll soon fill it. Wow. Wow. And you've written this book, Leading Through Uncertainty, with a COVID second edition.
Yeah, because I first had the idea for Leading Through Uncertainty about nine years ago, because what I found was, and maybe it's because I'm not a horse person, but every time I led a horse, there was that question mark of, Will they come with me or not? Because you can't force six, seven, 800 kilograms of sentient being with a strong opinion to do anything.
And in reality, you can't force anybody at work to do anything because they might do it temporarily, but ultimately they'll end up leaving. So you can't long-term force people to do what they don't want to do. And, and so what I found was that every day leading horses was uncertain for me. but also for my clients because every time they walked through the gates, they'd literally walk into an environment of uncertainty. They don't know the rules of the game.
They don't know the species they're going to be working with. They don't really understand how you can get feedback on your leadership skills from a horse. And so everything was uncertain. And what I saw was the same sort of patterns of behavior. be exhibited in that level of uncertainty, both by me and by my clients. So I first had the idea about nine years ago, and every time I talked about uncertainty, everybody shut me down and said, no, we like to be in control. We like to have a plan.
We like to have a strategy and a vision. And yes, we can have all those things, but there's still uncertainty about how we achieve them. And I think it was about five years ago after Brexit, when people started to realize that there was more uncertainty than they perhaps had previously realized. And at that point, I thought, right, now the world is ready for the book. So it was published initially in 2018, so long before the pandemic.
And it was really fascinating for me to witness what was happening, particularly in the first three months of lockdown, of all the things I'd written about in the book were starting to happen. but on a global scale. So instead of it being a team walking through my gate, experiencing uncertainty, we were all experiencing it, including me. So I'm not immune from it just because I wrote a book on it.
And so I was able to help clients substantially through the pandemic because all the patterns of behavior that were showing up that they were not understanding either in themselves or in their teams. I was able to say, this is normal. You know, it's not, it's not very nice. We don't like it. It's uncomfortable, but it's normal and it's okay. And you don't need to fight it. But here are some pointers of how you can support yourself and your teams through it.
And so that, that was really fascinating for me. And then my publisher said, well, it's no good having a book on uncertainty. that's now four years out of date and post a pandemic. So she asked me to update it to include the pandemic. So that's what I did. Wow. Because you can never be fully in control, can you? No, and I think it's a myth, isn't it? We tend to like to think we're in control. And the number of people that say to me, I like to be in control, but we're not.
We're not in control of anything. Yeah. Yes, yes, and life isn't predictable. Teams aren't predictable people. Exactly. And I think, you know, one, the one thing that, that I always say to clients is that actually in a crisis and in uncertainty, we're incredibly skillful and resourceful and creative. and, and we tend to lean into communities and into our families in a crisis. And a crisis is not the same as uncertainty. So I don't want to collapse the two.
But, you know, in both uncertainty and a crisis, we can be very, very resourceful. And part of it is about trusting in the skills and the capabilities that we've got and being able to draw on them in the uncertainty and not get stuck in fear or the anxiety of, or crikey, I'm out of control and I don't know how to deal with this. And catastrophizing about what might happen. So I'm sensing there's something about presence and how we are.
I think so, because I think, you know, if we're, we're catastrophizing, we're looking forward to the future. And not, and we're not present. And actually, if we take steps in the present, we can avoid a lot of catastrophes. So it's good to look forward and it's good to look back. to see the past as a learning experience and the future as a vision of how we want things to be.
But it's important to look at how do we want things to be and what are the steps I need to take right now in this moment and today to move towards that, as opposed to catastrophizing about what I don't want and then creating that because that's where our attention is. Yeah, and I'm guessing horses pick up on unsettled leaders. Completely. mean, and it's really fascinating because we've moved. We moved on Thursday last week. So just under a week ago.
And obviously the horses are unsettled because they're in a new environment and they're questioning every noise, every movement in the environment because they don't recognize those movements. And also I'm unsettled because I'm living in a house. full of boxes that are still not unpacked in an equestrian center that's not unpacked. I've moved my business to a new county 90 miles away. So there's a huge amount of uncertainty that I'm living in.
And one of the things I'm having to do every day before I go into the field with the horses is just reground myself and say, okay, take a breath, reground, connect, trust that just because they're feisty at the moment, doesn't make me less safe, I'm able to build that relationship with them when I'm grounded and when I'm present. So, you know, I'm drawing on everything I know in the moment as well. Because activated you and activated horses together isn't a great combination, I'm guessing.
Not really, no. No, and I think, you know, it's the same for us at work, though, isn't it, as well, is when a leader gets activated and gets stressed. then the whole team around them feel that stress and they then get activated. And then nobody's that effective because they're not present. We don't make good decisions when we're in overwhelm or when we're all over the place. So we do need to keep having those skills to keep coming back and reground ourselves.
Yeah. Yeah. So I am really struck that you said you were frightened of forces because I hate this. I'm going that's quite one big audacious step forward Jude to go from being there to being here in your equestrian centre with your five horses and growing. I know it's mad isn't it? I love it. Well yeah and I'm going my goodness that is such a big personal challenge.
Well I haven't done that overnight it's been you know 12 years in the making but the you know the first major challenge was to get a horse. Yeah. Especially when I didn't know anything about horses, nobody around me. didn't have a horse network around me, so I didn't have any support. And I had a lot of people saying, but you don't know how to look after a horse. And my answer to that was, well, most people don't know how to look after a baby when they bring it home.
You we take on responsibilities in the world without knowing how to do it. And that's, you know, that is the making of us, I think, as leaders. Yeah, no leader knows how to be a leader until they become a leader. Exactly. And I think that's the key thing about the uncertainty piece is that we're always stepping into it. Because if we're not stepping into uncertainty, then we're in the status quo.
And then what happens is the world becomes our world becomes smaller because it starts to become more uncomfortable to even do something to even make a minor change. And so it's important that we continually expand and grow. Otherwise we stagnate and go smaller. So what are the changes that you've noticed in the organisations that you work with, kind of pre and post pandemic? Or quite a few.
mean, obviously the hybrid working is one that everybody is grappling with at the moment and I think will continue to do so. think trying to keep people engaged, I think a lot of people have done a lot of soul searching, working from home, spending more time with their family. A lot of people have spent more time in nature and therefore the desire to get on a tube or a train or the daily commute, people don't want to do that anymore. So I think there's, there's a grappling with that.
I also know that when, when you work permanently from home, you do get disconnected from an organization. And so I think that face, you can't beat face to face contact. So there needs to be that balance. And I think a lot of organizations are grappling with that. I think there's an increased understanding of the need for compassion and empathy. And the starting to have a recognition of everybody's experience is different.
And therefore to approach it with curiosity, rather than blame and judgment. I think there's more understanding that change has an emotional impact in some organizations. I think some are still ploughing their way through and saying, right, come on, let's drive huge change. And there's nothing wrong with that. As long as we're mindful of the fact that resistance will show up because that's part of change and part of the uncertainty.
And the more palatable we can make change and uncertainty for people, and the more we support them through it, the more likely they are to come with us and less likely to leave. So I think there's pockets of understanding around that. But I think the desire for change is overruling the compassion and the empathy. I think there were huge amounts of that in the early days of lockdown. I think some of that, I think it's a balance, isn't it?
It's a bit of a pendulum swing where we went from very little compassion and empathy to huge amounts at the expense of the business resource. And now we've got to find that middle ground of how do you use compassion and empathy as part of your leadership to engage, inspire and support people in order to achieve results rather than at the expense of. So I think there's a lot of grappling with that at the moment.
And I'm thinking back to what you said about your horses in their new field with different noises. Yeah. And I don't know if you can hear the cockerel that's next door that keeps... being very vocal this morning, you know, even things like that. I mean, once they've heard that several times and they recognize that as that safe, then they can relax.
Yeah. And it's the same with people at work is once, you know, once something happens several times and we go, actually I'm resourceful enough to cope with that. Then we include it as part of our daily lives and as, and then we embrace the change. It's the things that make us go, woo. And we see that, I see that response with the horses where a new environment in the environment makes them go, because they're on red alert, am I safe?
And I don't think we talk enough about safety at work because that's the question that actually people are asking themselves when they're resisting change or they're resisting uncertainty. They're actually unconsciously saying, am I safe? And I don't feel safe. And think part of the role as a leader to help people through change and uncertainty is to say, it's okay, you can do this. And there's a lot of talk, isn't there, about psychological safety?
But if you go back to what you're saying about the horses, it's a good reminder, isn't it, that actually all our chemicals are activated when we don't feel safe. And then there's all sorts of other things that we can't do here, engage with. Yeah. Absolutely. mean, if I think about moving my horses here, my horses haven't been off site, off my previous site for nine years. Wow. That's a huge ask for them all to get on a lorry and get on the motorway and not know where they're going.
Yes. And what I did in order to get them to do that was spent time with them. Now, obviously they don't understand the words, but they understand my intent, they understand my energy, they trust me, the relationship is really strong. And so particularly with my mayor, I said to her, because I knew she was going to get on the lorry first. And I repeatedly had conversations with her and said, I want you to follow my lead. This is really important. I want you to follow my lead.
I want you to show the boys what to do, because she's the only female in the herd. Yeah. And when it came to getting her on the lorry, she walked on, she put her front feet on and then she sort of stopped and went, I'm not sure. And I stood next to her and I said, this is okay, I need you to trust me, I need you to come with me. And she walked on like a lamp. That's the horse that hasn't been on a box for nine years. And won't probably have any memory of a box at all.
Yeah, I'm not sure whether they do or not, but I Possibly some in the way that she was able to do it. But and then the boys followed her in the same way, a continual conversation of this is okay, you're perfectly safe. I need you to trust me. And because I spend so much time building the relationship with them, when I ask them to do something that they don't want to do, they'll do it because they trust me. And I think because you're with them. Yes. And not distant from them. Yeah, exactly.
And I think that's what we need to think about with people when we're inviting them into change that feels dramatic and scary. We need to say, trust me, come with me. I need you to do this. And this is why I need you to do it. And I know it's going to be uncomfortable, but when we get out the other side, it will be worth it. And in order for a leader to have that level of direction and directiveness, you need to have built really strong relationships in advance.
And I know that I can trust my horses to follow me because the relationship is so strong and because in everyday life they have huge opinions about what we do and how we do it. So I don't rarely, I rarely do I tell them, this is what you need to do today, do it. Because if I did that every single day, I wouldn't get them on a lorry.
But because everything that I do is a conversation, it's an invitation, when I do then say, right, you need to do this, and this is why they'll do it because that level of relationship and trust is there. And you went into the lorry with them, you weren't sat in the cab. Yeah, I went first. So many similarities, aren't there? Such a great thing to learn.
Yeah. And I think that, you know, the reason why I work with the horses is because it's so visceral and it's so embodied because I can literally feel in my body when I'm settled and when I'm not. And of course I had anxiety around, crikey, will they even get in the box? Because what if they don't? And it would be very easy for me to put my attention there.
But because of 12 years of working with them, I know that in order for me to lead them from the front, I have to fully embody confidence, clarity, direction, and to really trust in my leadership and trust that I'm worth following and trust in the relationship. And when I put all my attention there and I stay really calm and really grounded, even though I'm, you know, there's huge amounts of uncertainty around me and there's a level of nervousness.
I had to drop that, not hide it, but drop it and go in this moment, I completely trust in my capabilities as a leader. And therefore I trust that you will follow me. And when we embody that, why wouldn't people follow us? You know, and when you think about it, you're asking a horse to step into a box that's not much bigger than them. Yeah. That's a huge ask.
But if we can do that as leaders because we're grounded and we're solid and we're present and we trust in our own capabilities, then people will follow us through change. I loved what you said there, Jude, about drop it, not hide it. Yeah. And of course, I'm sitting here, we moved 18 months ago and I'm thinking, and your whole house was in boxes and you were also doing your own leaving thing.
So it wasn't just the horses and yet, and yet you recognise that you had to put it down in service of them. Yeah. Yeah, because people sense it when we're hiding it, don't they? Completely. And I think one of the things that we often do, particularly with fear, and fear is a normal part of change and uncertainty. What people do is they make it wrong, and they stuff it down, and they try and rise above it and go, no, I'm not scared. And I try and push through.
But actually, we are scared in those moments. And we're pushing through and people around us sense it. Whereas if we can name it, even if you don't name it to somebody, even if you say it in your head or out loud or write it down. I sometimes find that things that I'm scared of, if I write it down and say, I'm scared that the horses won't get on the box, somehow that allows us to release the fear because we've named it and we've articulated it.
And as soon as we do that, we can let go of it and go, okay, I know what the fear is. and then I can let it go. And this is skillful emotional work that's years of practice. Whereas most people have got the default pattern of behavior which is, I'll just stuff it down and pretend I'm not scared because we're not allowed to be scared at work.
Whereas actually when I watch clients, you know, when they work with the horses and sometimes, you know, sometimes people don't want to admit they're scared and they'll stuff it down and the horses will be galloping around the field. And until they name they're scared, the horses won't calm down. And so, because the horses are connecting to what's going on internally, as we are too, we're just not as skillful as recognizing it.
We often sense that something's not quite right, but we don't necessarily know what or why. Whereas the horses will sense tiny, subtle changes in our emotional state in terms of what we're thinking and what we're feeling. And we'll respond to it. And so once clients have admitted, actually, I'm a bit apprehensive about stepping into the arena with an 800 kilogram horse and me saying, that's okay. like fears normal.
And for people to realize that fear is actually normal, a normal part of our everyday life. Yeah. We don't need to fear the fear. And I think once you fear, once you stop fearing the fear, you can start to use that fear as a source of information to say, okay, what am I actually afraid of? I'm afraid the horse might trample me. Okay, so how do I ensure that I'm physically safe? What do I need to be resourceful to step into that arena?
And I think if we can do that at work, we can take on these big challenges and we can do it with relative grace and ease. Wow. So what's your dream for your business? You said it's bigger than we need at the moment. So what's your dream? So my dream has always been to live on a farm since I was about eight years old. wow. My driving force is I want people to thrive at work. And I think so many people don't thrive at work.
And so my dream is that to build a arm, where people come to learn how to thrive at work, by being immersed in nature, by being with the horses. And to really understand these are my default patterns of behavior. These are the ones that are really useful and therefore I can use them more. And these are the ones that are not so useful. And therefore, what do I need to do differently in uncertainty? Or what do I need to do differently when there's conflict or a disagreement?
And how do I know when I'm unsettled? Because so many people will say, when you ask them how they are, they'll say, I'm fine. Because they don't even know they're stressed. Because it's become so normal to shut it down that they don't even realize that they're unsettled in their embodied state. So really getting people to be in tune with themselves, with each other.
with the environment and to start making decisions that are in harmony with all of that and with the planet and in society because I genuinely believe we can all thrive the planet can thrive the people on it can thrive when we make good decisions. Wow and where is the farm based Jude?
Well at the moment we're based in Staffordshire so we've moved to the Staffordshire Moorlands which is the northeast of Staffordshire so just east of Stoke-on-Trent towards the Peak District so beautiful beautiful area we're at the top of a hill with views over the whole of the Staffordshire Moorlands and the Peak District so it's absolutely stunning. Amazing, amazing.
I have a question for you, because I'm sure that we've got listeners who are team coaches who are going, has she got a bit of her business where she'll let me bring the teams that I'm coaching to her farm? Absolutely, yes. There you are. You heard it here. So how do they get in touch with you, if they want to do that? So my website is www.judejennison.com. And you can find me on all the social media. channels as Jude Genesis. The benefit of an unusual name is relatively easy to find.
Yes, I find that too. And your book is Leading Through Uncertainty, Making Disruptive Change Work for Humans by Jude Genesis, published by Practical Inspiration. Yeah. And I also have another another book published by Practical Inspiration called Opus, The Hidden Dynamics of Teen Performance. Great. So we'll put links to both of those on the show notes. And little heads up listeners, practical inspiration of publishing our next book.
Excellent. So Jude, thank you so much for your company at The Coaching Inn today. It's been such pleasure to meet you and so interesting. Thank you for coming. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Bye bye everyone. I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been talking to Jude Jenison. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media.
And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time. You've been listening to The Coaching In, 3D Coaching's virtual pub. For more information, check out 3dcoaching.org.