You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's edition. I'm Claire Pedrick and today I'm delighted to have as our guest, Ben Jeeves. Ben is an advanced practice physiotherapist and we met on a Building a Coaching Culture course and Ben kind of got captivated by coaching. So welcome, Ben. Morning. Thank you.
Thanks for having Tell us a bit more about you and then we'll see how you're using coaching in your work. Certainly. So as you say, I'm an advanced practice physiotherapist. So I work in musculoskeletal care in this role in itself for about five years, but advanced practice in itself for the best part of eight years now.
So I'm community -based, see lots of patients with all sorts of musculoskeletal problems working between GP's primary care and then secondary care for patients who do need interventions, surgery, those sorts of things, undertaking some treatments myself, like injections and their blocks. Wow. So what difference is coaching making then? It's opened up a different way of having a conversation.
So it might not necessarily be framed or we might not use a full container, but sometimes it very much lands itself quite nicely, as often these conversations do. And I think it fits in quite neatly with perhaps the context, the idea of coaching and the fact that it can be very powerful for the right people, I think, really. I'm really interested to see what successes you've had and what difference has it made for people? Hugely.
There's a couple of standout cases, obviously, sparring some of the detail. But again, it's... not again, not necessarily always been the full right, you've come for a coaching conversation. Patients often, even now say, I'm not sure what I'm here for, I'm not sure what I'm after, you know, I know I've got this problem, I know I've been referred, some patients may have had some treatment before, might not have had others.
But as I say, it can be very powerful to help people realise that actually, a lot of the time patients have already got the answers already. You know, it's very much a case I might not be bringing anything new to the table for these patients. I think it worked particularly well for those who perhaps we are looking at managing them more on a long -term basis. You know, this might not be something that needs a surgical intervention, a specific treatment or a clearly defined outcome.
It's particularly useful for those that, you know, they might be on their journey of realising this is something to manage and cope with on a more longer -term basis really. The only thing I will say is what I have found is like anything that comes down to the openness and willingness of the patient. Absolutely. But I've often used the permission, permission with it. Can we have a conversation about this? Yeah. Can we have some very, very blunt ideas put forward before us?
So again, sometimes it's case of setting the seed and then leaving that. you can see it, you can see it unraveling in front of you, much like we did with the practising. you can see them patients thinking and you can see it there and then. Wow and what's the outcome on their kind of mood, spirit?
I've seen it being very uplifting, the one gentleman that I can think of pretty much jumped out of his chair at the end of it and said, great that's it, you know, and again it was almost a case of he said the things that we asked, have we done what we needed to do? He went, I think we've done, you know, so again seeing those things is It's certainly the side of the job that we always say that we signed up for, know, the making the difference.
And often with some things we might not necessarily see it there and then, but actually sometimes with this conversation, I would say that I have more frequently seen it there and then, know, the pain levels might not change, their immediate function might not change, but they feel like they've got direction, they've been empowered basically and the whole, look, I've got this, I know what I need to do. The challenge, I think, for our role is we don't necessarily always have long term follow ups.
Yeah. Sometimes truly seeing the longer term outcome of that. But I have to say, I have seen a more immediate change in the in the context and the field of the consultation, really. People getting their power back. Yeah, absolutely. Because we mentioned this on the course about how disempowering a consultation perhaps is by default. And we still see that an awful lot. there's a lot more understanding around now around health literacy and that dovetails really quite nicely with it really.
But again, you can often see the lack of power that patients come in with saying, well, I've been told to come for this. Again, fixing what I said earlier, I don't really know what I'm here for. I've just been told to turn up. I've been told I've got an appointment and this is it. So again, there's a lot of filling the gaps and putting the context in place for the patients. But again, it's that power of the conversation allows that to happen, I think far more easily, really. Fantastic.
And that question, have we done what we needed to do? Is such an amazing question at the end of a consultation, isn't it? Because it means that you can check if there's anything unfinished. Absolutely, absolutely. And even if I've not necessarily utilised any sort of coaching tools, I still absolutely use that at end of every consultation, because that's got its place. You know, have we done what you expected? And sometimes, again, we all know it's a case of changing how we ask things.
Again, there's lots of work on that now, you know, versus the whole, well, have you got any more questions or changing it? You know, what do you want to ask me? And the whole, you know, kind of teach back and those sorts of principles as well. But again, it's a nice, well, have we done everything that you wanted to do today? And most of the time, yes, which is is helpful, you know, it makes me feel like I'm doing the right things.
But again, there'll be times where, well, actually, I just wanted to ask you know, so again, it's those times again, it's empowering the patient, it's another opportunity for them to go, there's one other thing that I wanted to ask you.
And sometimes it's relevant, sometimes it's completely random, but again, it's helpful for them, even if it's not something I can help them with, again, we can give direction and it's something they feel like, everything's been answered today, you know, so that is a really helpful question. If there's nothing else, that's probably one of the really good takeaway questions at the end of a consult.
And I can imagine any health workers here who haven't really started using a coaching style at all, listening and going, you can't ask that because it'll mean they stay another 10 minutes. it doesn't. doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't because? Again, I think perhaps some of it is do the tools during the rest of the consultation. So again, you've already done the work. You know, we're going to talk about landing these conversations. You've already landed it.
Yeah. But it's a real nice way of closing And even if, like I say, even if there is something that comes up that is either not relevant to you, your post, your position, your knowledge or that consultation, it really doesn't add an awful lot at all. But I think it really gives the patient a lot because it's that other, they feel like they've offloaded everything, they've done all that they needed to do. They're not walking away thinking, I've still not got the answer or anything.
There's times when we haven't got an answer, but we've got a process in place. So again, it's just checking in that the patients are happy This is the process moving forward. I haven't got a diagnosis for you today. I don't know what's going on, but what we are going to do is this, this, and this. And again, it's very much, it's the we, it's the joined up. We are doing this together. This is your journey, but we are going along with it together.
It's, and again, that's the coaching style, isn't it? It's having that jointly. There's a lot of work at the minute around decision making. And again, I just feel really lucky that I did the coaching earlier on in year and this is all kind of picking in and going together quite nicely, linking things together. Fantastic. Yeah, shared decision -making partnership really matters because otherwise it's so deeply disempowering.
Yeah. So what response are you getting from colleagues who see this happening in the corner? Again, I think some of the challenges are COVID, that perhaps isn't happening as much as what it used to be. So I would like to share it more.
Again, it's just those little nuggets, but I would strongly encourage anyone to go on it, even if it's not coaching from a coaching point of view that the conversation context we have in terms of non -clinical work, but the tools you can pull straight across are absolutely ideal. So I would sell it to every level, every opportunity, very much so. But I would like to do a bit more with it. I think if anything, this podcast might be be helpfully the start of that really.
I'm also very lucky I've been given as part of my role in advanced practice, we have to work on what we call four pillars that many would be familiar with. I've been given the lead role for leading our leadership pillar. So again, there's a number of different aspects within that and I should be bringing in coaching. Fantastic. obviously want to receive because I think, you know, if it's right for them, having a coaching conversation or career in leadership is absolutely spot on.
But again, as another way of developing. across those four pillars. Yeah, yeah, we're having some interesting conversations around talent and a coaching style in talent. Actually going back to what you said earlier about power and if your direct reports give you power as their line manager, those development conversations become slightly tricky because Instead of them being empowering, they can accidentally become disempowering.
Yeah. And I think that's the thing, it's that accidentally, that they're not necessarily not knowing that that's what's happening. And that goes back to the consultations as well. Again, you know, we often might think we've done what we perhaps used to think was a model consultation, but again, as being actually perhaps, you know, the older models, which are absolutely the opposite of what we now design and want to work towards. Yeah. Yeah, I think few people. intend to deliberately disempower.
No, not at all. But accidental disempowerment is such a big thing, both with patients and with colleagues. I'm just preparing a video teaching on power in the NHS actually, around direct reports and line managers and culture. So if my line manager is a different culture from me and my nature is to give strong respect to somebody who I perceive to be an authority over me, you've got a real imbalance there. And the line manager may or may not notice. Noticing. Yeah. Noticing Claire.
It's the heart of everything, isn't it Ben? It is. Yeah. And again, that's another key thing really. And again, some of these things that whilst we're talking about it, you know, from the outside, you know, these things are obvious that you're talking about, but actually they're not, they're not always, but even the slightest little bit of consciousness towards them all of a sudden. start to notice a lot of things. And that's really useful in itself as well.
Yeah. So in patient consultations, what benefit does that have for you and for them? Yeah. Yeah. Again, it's identifying the perhaps different needs, things that the patients didn't notice, didn't realise. And again, it comes down to the models and the tools that we've discussed. You know, again, often leading with, leading with permission. Yeah, I've noticed something, do you mind that we talk about that? Or even again, saying, well, I've noticed this, would you like to talk about that?
Or would you like to explore that a bit more? And again, it's all it's doing is provoking more thought, more self -reflection in the patient. I I hadn't realised that. I hadn't realised. And that might be that actually they're achieving far more than what they realise.
Again, this is about context, which is difficult for patients when they have got a significant problem that is limiting might not be the goals that they want, it might not be what they're used to, but again part of those journeys of realising, you know, this is now my new normal, you know, this is a long -term condition, but actually to know what, I am a lot better than what I am.
And this isn't, these aren't coercive conversations, these are just allowing patients to realise and that there are different ways, because unfortunately there are a number of conditions, problems, diagnoses you know, that there isn't necessarily one magic wand for that we can change. And it is about patients coming to terms with that. Yeah. And what's the best way that I can navigate what is now my normal? Yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, you've just sparked a thought process.
What works for you? You know, again, finding those things, you know, what makes a good question? What is the question that's right at the time for the patient? Well, how's this going to work for you? know, what do we need to do? It's and again, it's the empowerment. This is your consultation, you know, introductions, look, you know, sometimes it starts straight away and we do have to backtrack, you know, all valuable stuff you said, can we just go back a little bit? Let's just frame this.
This is your consultation, putting that power back to back to them. And of course, coaching is optimistic and future focused. And as you were talking there, you know, and you said, you know, it's long term and there might not be as an easy solution, it might be a different way of life.
It made me think about the way there are lots of people now using coaching with people in palliative care, people who are dying, people who are experiencing other kinds of loss, because you're kind of describing loss, aren't you? But it's finding the hope in the present, isn't it, that coaching brings such a lot of value to? There's a lot of things that excited me on the coaching course that I probably wasn't anticipating or expecting, but the future focus was really useful.
Again, that's not to not to utilize the history, the previous that very much forms the foundations. But again, it's very much that, OK, that's what we've got. That's where we are. And what direction do we take that? And again, that's not just clinical. That's leadership, that's project management. It's a whole host of things. You can apply these things. literally across the board.
In itself, it's not a one size fits all, but you've absolutely have got things that you can utilise every single bit of your work, whether that's the clinical, the non -clinical, the supervision, the career conversations, every aspect of that. Future focus, that was one of the key exciting bits for me. Wow, and one of the questions I like, which I'm using more and more actually, when people bring something that's kind of intangible.
I often say to them, if we could move this forward a little bit in this conversation, what would that, what would that need to be like for you? Because everything can be moved forward a little bit. And even if I'm unable to be mobile, there'll be something that can be moved forward a little bit. Always. And that could be how I feel about it. You know, it could be all sorts of things. What a gift it is to bring. is. It is. So what's your dream?
Overall, terms of coaching, think following the journey through a bit more, again, I was thinking about this obviously with the podcast in mind, but I'm thinking, well, actually, there's still more to it. There's still more learning, like anything, learning never stops me, no matter what area that is, whether that's your clinical, your academic, your leadership skills, your coaching skills, there's always more learning to do.
And again, helpfully, you set the seed for that at the end of the course, around, you know, taking it through for more formal qualifications within it, really. It's a case of building on I think absolutely that's right. I've had a particularly busy period just after finishing that, so it didn't kind of carry on straight away. But it hasn't gone away and I will continue that. There's been a few of us off the course, we've continued some of our coaching practice behind the scenes. I can guess.
I can guess who that is. And I'm sure they'll be listening at some point. Yes. Just a wave. I know who you are. You know who you are. that's delightful to know, Ben. So absolutely, you know, I'm going to follow through with that. And again, There's so within within our patch our trust. So I work for Midlands Partnership Foundation Trust, based in Stoke and Staffordshire. There is like an internal coaching pool.
So again, I'm now actively exploring getting that all set up, which again, unfortunately, has took a bit of time. There was a big project that we were delivering that did take priority because I'm still a clinician. still got my clinical priorities. balancing it all. And again, it's very much all I wouldn't want to take that on without being able to give it, give it its full, its full attention, you know, to get the best out of it.
It's not just a case of following through for a piece of paper, a qualification, you know, it's very much about the world. What am I doing it for? I'm doing it for impact. So again, things, things never calm down, do they? the opportunities are now presenting that I think moving forward is something that I will probably be taking forward. And thank you for that really, because if you'd have asked me 12 months ago, coaching, formal coaching, you know, what? Really? Me? But yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah. And you're using it for impact every day. Yeah. And it is great. It absolutely is. I'm not over -selling it at all in the slightest. Come along, see it for yourself, most definitely. Even if there is only a couple of bits that you take away, that they will stay with you. And that's the thing. This is easily embedded into your professional What a great sentence, easily embedded into your professional life. I'll to remember that one. Super.
And what's your dream for your service in relation to coaching? So, again, not to step out of my current role, if you like. So we just a little bit of background to the project I mentioned. we've now become an integrated musculoskeletal service. So in the patch we had separate services all delivering musculoskeletal care. We are now one service.
So we've kind of delivered phase one which was bringing in kind of the diagnostic side, the interface service that I was in with podiatry and with physiotherapy. So we are now one integrated service. We have got future developments bringing on a pain service within this as well. We're very fortunate. think there's lots of training opportunities moving forward. Colleagues are actually doing a training needs analysis, but I suspect coaching isn't going to come out on that.
So it's very much a case of, well, selling it really. There might be some opportunities to get some wide reaching uptake of it really. So I very much see it as part of that. We've got a few different vehicles for that. As I say, this Advancing Professional Practice Forum that we've got set up with the leadership. I'm absolutely going to be Being it as part of that, know, leadership has so many different aspects to it.
Coaching being one of them, but the coaching you can then bring into your clinical practice as well. So again, it reaches across the pillars. It's not just a nice add -on. It is a nice thing as part of your role. know, even when you're doing this non -patient facing, it is a nice thing to have, but actually it fits into the necessities, the absolutes. What do we need?
And we need You know, we know there's a lot of work to be done within the workforce, retention, we know that, again, with all the challenges that the NHS is facing, that actually coaching is a really nice way to bring that, not only for people to have, but people to deliver it as well. Because again, you know, having done the learning and then delivering it, if we should call it that, that's made perhaps some of that element of enjoyment come back. You know, again, the things we think...
Well, we always say that's what we signed up for and you get so embedded in the day to day life of the clinical pressures and the service developments and whilst it seems to be one of the nice things, I'd argue it's one of the essential things and at least it fits in with the components of your essential daily work. So I'd like a large scale uptake on it. I like your dream Ben.
So if people want to talk to you about how you're using it in your service and their health practitioners, how do they contact you? I'm more than happy to share my email at the end, Claire, if there's a way that you can share that out. So I'm more than happy for that. I am on Twitter as well. So my handle's at BG's. And again, I'm happy for you to share that. I'm more than happy for people to reach out, Twitter, emails as well.
But again, I'm always more than happy to have conversations, a problem at all. Thank you. I'll put that in the show notes, listeners, so you can check that out there so you can make contact with Ben Jeeves. Ben, thank you for coming to The Coaching In. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm Claire Pedrick and we've been talking about using coach with patience.
Thank you, Ben. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time. You've been listening to The Coaching In, 3D Coaching's virtual pub. For more information, check out 3dcoaching .com.