You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello there, thanks for joining us today as we host essentially a mini series within 3D's podcast, The Coaching In, while Claire is on sabbatical, walking the Camino. For those of you that don't know me, my name is Kirsty Elderton and I'm gonna be your host for today. And I've been coaching... with 3D and individuals and coaching in organizations for over 10 years.
And I also lead a design practice for Nouse Group, which is a consulting firm. And that gives me the great privilege of working with individuals, but also taking a bit of a peek behind the curtains of organizations through my consulting work. And one of my favorite things amongst all of that is to see leaders who might not. think of themselves as coaches applying coaching skills in their practice.
in this series, we're taking a deep dive into a very specific leadership trait or characteristic and exploring that with a leader who embodies that trait. Someone who is, to use that lovely Brene Brown expression, in the arena, demonstrating that quality. day in and day out. My very strong hunch is that there's gonna be a lot we can learn from people who are living those qualities, either as leaders ourselves, as coaches, or just as people who wanna have a more positive impact in the world.
So I'm really excited to introduce our next guest to the arena. I've had the great pleasure of working with him over the last couple of years. and as well as learning loads from him. It's also just been a lot of fun. And so today I'm really pleased to welcome Kamal Ibrahim to the podcast and we are gonna be talking all things coaching and that much needed leadership quality of adaptability. So Kamal, welcome.
Perhaps say hello, introduce yourself a little bit, tell us a little bit about your background. Hello, hello, hello. Thank you for having me, Kirsty. And it's a pleasure to be here. My name is Kamal Ibrahim. A little bit background about me. I've arrived from Ethiopia in 2003 with my two sisters and four brothers. And, you know, since I've arrived in Australia, my whole journey has been absolutely amazing.
It's been up and down, a lot of, I would say, things that I didn't know about Australia when I arrived first here has been a big challenge and, to to where I am from first, from Ethiopia when I arrived here 2003 to now. been a big challenge. Hopefully we can talk in depth about a little bit, but yeah, like Kosti said, I'm a founder of OneBall, which is an unprofitable organization, and we focus on helping disadvantaged kids to be fit and healthy using soccer as a vehicle. Yeah, thank you, Kamal.
I'm sure we'll touch a little bit more on that story as we delve into this idea of adaptability. just tell us a little bit, Kamal, about how you managed to turn your kind of passion for soccer into a way of kind of, I guess, communicating, connecting, settling into a new place at that. Yeah, that. very young age of 12. Yeah, sure. Well, my passion for soccer started really when I was back at home. My older brother was a soccer player. We grew up in a small village in Ethiopia called the Gajafe.
And I used to wake up in the morning, go with him to soccer training 6 a.m., holding his bags and soccer balls, you know? And yeah, I just fall in love with the game. And, know, it's funny how now, after all these years, how, you know, for me soccer in a way saved my life, you know, the passion I had for soccer.
Because when the war did happen between Ethiopia and Eritrea, and when we got separated from my family, from my two oldest brothers, my dad, long story short, but they've been, you know, falsely taken from you know, from our house and pretty much trapped in the border to go back to Eritrea. That's when, you know, then, you know, to avoid, I feel like to avoid, you know, missing my dad and my brothers. I used soccer again that time to kind of just give me happiness.
So I played a lot of soccer when I was younger. And then from that small village, then I had to again move to a bigger city to start the process to come to Australia. And then, you know, my mother just being by herself, it was obviously difficult. And I could see that. And, you know, most of the time, again, I spend my whole day outside playing soccer with friends and going for a long, long walk to play in tournaments.
And when I first come to Australia, then it was very difficult to settle in for many reasons. So I use soccer again to kind of feed in or make friends or feel like I belong here. So soccer has been definitely a big part of who I am today. And Kamal, I know you've been a little bit humble here because you would have started, I guess, at a local club, progressed through the leagues, went on to play professional soccer, under 21s for the Socceroos, the Australian men's team.
it wasn't just a passion, hey, was a career for you. Yeah, yeah, well, started with a passion. You know, I've never had the vision to play soccer professionally or know how much players get paid or anything like that. just did it like I said back at home. didn't have TV, we didn't have anything. And that was the way for us to spend the day, you know? And when I first came here, you know, there was a lot of negativity towards me. And I didn't know what it was from the start, you know?
I would jump on the bus and people look at me weird or I would be at school and people start saying things that I knew that it wasn't nice things because just their body language meant to me that I didn't belong here. So it took me a while to kind of know why people were very rude towards me. And that's when I, like you said, I went to a local club and I started playing. And then from there, all of a sudden, you know, the coaches and the players accepted me as a family.
then from there, everything took off very fast. You know, I got called up to play for Victoria and then started traveling into States and then got called up to play for Australia and travel the world. And yeah, it just gave me this belief to do more with my life. And obviously played professionally for Melbourne Heart, now Melbourne City.
So it's given me, yeah, it's given me so many good things, but it did have a lot of sacrifice and a lot of hurdles that I had to overcome to try to get to where I wanted to get to. And you've more recently, Kamal, combined that kind of love of soccer, think, with some of those experiences you were just describing, being a young person, new to Australia in your not-for-profit one ball. And I know... I know how passionate you are about Womble and the work that you're doing.
So just paint a picture of Womble for us and what's involved and the work that you're doing with young people today. Yeah, so one ball, know, first of all, the name come from where, know, when I had one soccer ball and how much meant to me. And that's all meant to us when we were kids back at home. Just one soccer ball could do a lot for us and it gave us so much joy and it gave distracted us from all these things.
So, you know, when I kind of stopped playing professional, I realized you know, so many kids in Australia that love soccer, but they can't afford to play in the clubs because the clubs obviously cost so much money. They can't afford uniform or they get told, you know, good enough. You have to do trials and stuff like that. And I said to myself, my God, what about if there was a kid who would like me and he was trying to fit in, but he didn't find the club.
that I did and, you know, he just want to play football and it's not about being professional, but that kind of belonging to a club or organization, feeling like, you know, they have a teammate and support. So that's when I said, okay, I would love to create something like that where parents and kids from different cultures can come together.
without worrying about paying a big registration fee, being told you're not good enough or being told you don't belong in this club because you're from a different culture. So I started first just to bring everyone together and give this kid the sense of feeling that I had being a part of a team.
And then obviously over the years that have come into... know, different things as you know, now we've included in our soccer session, positive affirmation for the young kids and character strength for all the kids. So that's all the things I learned from soccer. know, like I said, you know, there's so many times that I wasn't, I wasn't welcome to play for. to play soccer in my teammates, were jealous.
They'll call me names or the crowd will say something or the coach tell me I'm not good enough or I'll go through injuries. There was a lot of things in soccer that it wasn't all just good things that I had to come to be strong and to continue my dream. So we want to start, know, cause these kids don't play soccer every single day or in a club environment. We want to kind of teach them that, you know, they have different qualities, you know, rather than just a soccer player.
And this is why we're including, you know, character strength building with the kids. And yeah, it has just been a great journey and we have some, we have a lot of big dreams for one ball. I want to do a lot of things. So, but so far it's been a great start. Just, I just want to say like a massive congratulations on the extraordinary success of Womble to have over, yeah, I think is it something like 250 children and young people in the program now is huge.
And I know you've got massive plans to kind of take it even further, but I just, you've painted a bit of a picture Kamal of some of the challenges, some of the barriers, some of the hurdles. you've had to overcome. Can you just talk to us about this idea of adaptability and how it's perhaps served you well over those years? Yeah, I can talk about that.
think, you know, it's for me, my whole life, had to adapt in some kind of way, you know, and you only get through through adapting through your environment. If things change and other things come, then you have to adapt to them. You have no choice. For example, when I was back at home, like I said, when I was a young kid, our whole life's been destroyed by the government and took in my dad's business and took in him and my brother just overnight, just like that. And just remove everything.
and I was only five years old, I think, at that time. And I remember being so scared and my mom and my brothers, just my other younger, older brothers trying to get us out of the village we were in because everybody knew that we were Eritrean, you know? And we had to flee to a different city and hide. So when I went to Addis Ababa, which is a capital city, I had to adapt there.
to even though it's in the same country, but it's the biggest city, know, we're from a small village and I had to adapt, going to school there, make sure nobody found out that I was a retreat and you know, and then when I come to Australia, then that was obviously a big challenge and it wasn't easy to adapt to the culture defenses, to English. to the people and to the food. You know, it took me a good couple of years to kind of, you know, I feel like I'm still adapting to it.
But I would say, you know, I've done a great job adapting and understanding not only the culture, but understanding other people's way of view.
because obviously they were born here and for example, my coaches, know, my coaches, I feel like the coaches didn't adapt to me, but I adapted to them, every single coach I had, because it's easier for them, it was easier for me to adapt to the culture rather than them adapting to my culture, because I feel like they had no idea about my culture, absolutely nothing.
And, you know, sometimes, that kind of caused me a lot of misunderstanding because they didn't know my culture or they refused to adapt, they refused to understand me. They kind of mistreated me in a lot of wrong ways. So adapting, feel like especially for coaches, it's a big thing, not everybody is the same. you need to kind of have an open mind and understand everyone's personality and everybody's needs.
So, you for me now as a coach and I'm passionate, that's something that I look forward to and I always know that I can't treat everybody the same. And I try to adapt in different situations, different locations. Obviously as Wombo, you know, we do different locations. And I have to adapt myself if we're doing a program in Crambon, for example, which is a different city, a different background, a lot of families from there, from Afghanistan.
So I've tried to make it work for them and not treated them exactly the same as the poor Melbourne program, for example. Kamawa, I think it's really interesting about what you're saying there is that, you know, those early experiences of perhaps not being understood by the folks that coached you have really informed your coaching practice.
And it sounds like you put in a lot of effort to kind of educate yourself about the people that you're working with and, you know, not make too many assumptions or at least challenge some of the assumptions that might be kind of planted in our brains, even if we didn't intentionally kind of put them there, about those different communities and cultures that you work with. And I'm just sort of reflecting that that's an important lesson for all of us, isn't it?
That kind of opportunity to think, reflect, educate ourselves about the folks that we're interacting with. So we're not missing. in conversations, we're not missing each other inadvertently. And at worst, could be disrespecting and at best it might be, you know, just misunderstanding. Yeah, absolutely. I think everything is about misunderstanding, not knowing when to know other people's culture or put yourself in their shoes.
A lot of coaches, when I was first come to Australia, or even now, they don't have any idea about my culture. So anything that I do, it's been seen as, for example, you know, they used to say a lot of things to me when Kamau has an attitude problem, you know, and he has this, has that. that's easy for them to say that rather than understand where I'm coming from or understand why I am doing the things that I'm doing. Because as I mentioned to you, I was in Australia two, three years.
And they expected me to live the Australian style or they expected me to do the things they were doing. But, you know, I've lived before then in a different culture and a different mentality. So it's going to take me years to adapt to this culture. Right. So they don't understand that everything then should become automatically and you should be doing everything that the kids were born in Australia, but that is not reality, you know.
So yeah, I just feel like, you know, they didn't care about knowing and understanding. It was easy for them to blame me because again, I'm just one person, one kid. So they can just get other players who then understand the culture and understand. the way of life.
yeah, like you said, now, for me, absolutely, I try to, you know, make sure that I'm not missing out, trying to understand other people and where they're coming from and be patient and not assume that they're being rude or they have attitude or they have this, know. that example you give about attitudes an interesting one, isn't it? Because in, I'm just reflecting that I work with someone who has, has been accused of that kind of attitude type face, facial expression.
And actually, it's often because they're very shy. And in their culture, they're very, what's the word, very respectful of people in senior positions. And so the tendency is to be quiet, to be shyer, but for somehow it's read as something differently. And so one of the sort of golden rules we talk about in coaching is if you're not really, if it's not clear what's happening with someone is to just, is to ask them. I notice you're being quiet, what's that about?
Rather than kind of diagnose or jump to conclusions too early, but. I'm just sort of thinking that out loud, Kamala, wondering what that would have been like to have someone ask those sorts of questions. Ask, sorry, say that again.
If one of your coaches, instead of jumping to the conclusion about, Kamal's got attitude, if they'd have asked you a question around, we notice you're not participating Kamal or whatever the right question might have been, would that have felt welcoming or would it have felt exposing? I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I felt like I was being attacked the whole time and I wasn't I had to prove myself. I will give you an example.
In my culture, if you come one hour late, you are very early. In Australia, if you come five minutes late, then you are not professional and you are not disciplined and you have attitude. So I went to training. five minutes late, I've got treated like I've killed someone, right? And I was rude, I was in discipline, I wasn't professional, I was this, everything that you can name up.
But the reality is, you know, I come here, my mother doesn't drive, my brothers, they don't care about soccer or taking me to training, they have their own, they're trying to live in Australia, trying to earn money. so there was no one, had no backing. had to do everything for myself at 12 years old, 13, 14, 15. So I had to catch a bus two hours to get to training or two and a half, maybe traffic. So five minutes late, you know, for me, it was like, I was trying to do my best, right?
So, but for the coaches, it was like, my God, his kid is coming five minutes late. He had, doesn't like soccer. He doesn't be professional. But the thing is I was the most. I played soccer my whole life. I have more passion than anybody there. And I did it for, I loved it. And it wasn't because I wasn't professional, but it just shows you that people rather give you and tell you things that you are not good at rather than try to find out how they can help you or why your situation is.
Small things like that, you that's just one example. But you know, now when I'm coaching and I see kids come late and I see other kids who come early and they come with their parents, you know, the parents actually there, they wash them, you know, they give them support and I see a kid coming off the bus, right? And he's like five minutes, minutes late. You know, I have to be more understanding of his situation, you know? You're just reminding me again, which is a great reminder, isn't it?
Because we can think we're doing well at this, at this kind of awareness and acknowledgement of different people's circumstances. But it's so easy to slip into our own standards and expectations and not give that patience and care and concern that I think you're describing, Kamal. Yeah. I think so too. think it just takes a small amount of patience to really understand the person. I'm not saying that the coaches should definitely let me come late every single training session.
I'm not saying that, but it's about understanding and seeing without blaming the person trying to understand. where they're coming from and see if you can adapt to their culture or the way of life. Because who said that coming five minutes late is not good? Who said coming one hour late proves to you that you're professional or you're gonna win games? It's not proven. So a different culture, for example, in Brazil, I Brazilian teammates. In Brazil, they say training is 9.30.
As long as you're on the pitch by 930, that's okay. Right. And Brazilians are more skilful players out there. And when he was talking to me, cause he had the same issue, he said, training is a 930. They want us here to be 1030. He goes, I have family. have things I'd rather spend those times with my family. Why do I have to become here an hour early? It doesn't make sense. Is it proven that is going to win you championship? Is it proven that you're not going to get injured? It's got nothing.
It's just the way. because of the Australian way of life that everybody does that. So everyone should do it, but it's got no scientifically prove that coming one hour late is good for you or coming five minutes, just five minutes before training. It's just as, as, as, as okay for me, you know, unless you need treatments and everything like that. So it's, yeah, it's a, it's a very weird one to be honest.
So there's a, I think there's a challenge here, isn't there, about not, yeah, not overplaying your own experience and expectations and kind of finding that meeting place in the middle. Because I think what I'm hearing, Kamal, is that you did all of the adapting and the dominant kind of culture didn't do very much. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, you can. It's a big difference from obviously Africa to Australia. By the way, everything is done, right?
I'm not coming from England to Australia or from Europe. It wasn't the case. So yeah, I had to do a lot of adapting where my coaches didn't have to do as much. And I was always blamed and this that. I fought through it and I try to do as best as I can. Yeah, and I'm just giving back now to, through Wombo, to the younger kids and kids from, know, obviously from African background as well.
You know, some of them already playing professional that are mental and coach and try to, you know, give them my experience and what's needed from them. Because I would like to... hate to see kids not being selected because he's been misunderstood by the coaches, you know?
And I think one of the things I was just sort of reflecting on when I was listening to you, Kamal, is that, you know, the coaching that you do with those young people, of course it's technical coaching around soccer, but it's also those sort of supportive conversations that help them with their sort of health and wellbeing that, you know, people who working, I was gonna say life coaching, that's maybe not the right term, but
people who are professional coaches working in the workplace, for example. It sounds like you're sort of sowing the seeds of some of this learning with those young people through those more transformational conversations that you're having with them through soccer. How important do you think this idea of adaptability is for the young people that you're working with? It's sort of had some challenges for you, but it also seems to have served you well. Yeah, definitely.
anything in life is a learning lesson, you know. If I didn't go through that, obviously, I wouldn't be the person I am today. for me, you know, I try to adapt to everything that I can. But most of the kids that we're working with at the moment, they're either born here or they come to Australia when they're very young. they are aware of they are more adapted than when I when I first came here.
So it's more like now for them is, you know, okay, you know, you need to understand that you you know, you're you're human being and and you have this whole life in front of you and you're going to be challenged in so many ways. And I feel like sport is the perfect place to challenge yourself because you're in a team environment, you have to learn how to work with the team. You have to learn how to lose, then get up again. You have to get injured.
go all the way down and then build yourself up again, come back again, and then getting jitter again and build yourself up again. And then you, you, you, know, the coaches maybe not happy with you or, or another player come take you sport and you sit down on the bench. Then you have to deal with that. you know, there's so many things, sports, soccer told me, to prepare me for, for the real life. Right.
And And the study shows that, and I've talked to so many athletes that, you know, if they didn't have soccer, and kids who don't have soccer, and my friend who don't have a sports team, for example, they can't cope with a pressure in life than a person who played sports. And for me, it's amazing because then I know why, because when you not involved in a sporting team, you're not challenged. You're just going to work or you're at school, everything is easy. And you do what you can do.
But when you play sport, like I mentioned before, you're challenging in a different way. So you're building this resilience, you're building courage, you're building teamwork, you're building leadership, you're building all these great character strengths that you're gonna need when you grow up. So this is why... I mostly I wanted to put those kids in the sport environment, in a team environment where they challenge and then try to teach them about their own character strength.
And the people who listening to this podcast, if we ask how many of you right now understand exactly what your powers are as a human being and exactly know, okay, you can point out this is my strength. and I'm actually using them, it won't be money, you know? So, you know, that was the case for me. And someone asked me, Kamal, what's your strength? And I used to say, I'm a good soccer player. I'm this, I'm that, because that's all I knew. That's all the coaches say to me.
If I played good, Kamal was amazing today. He's a great soccer player. If I played bad, he was terrible today. He wasn't as so good. So when I understand that, you know, we have all these amazing qualities as a person, a character, which is called character strength, our personality strength. Then I said, my God, you know, I really want to know what minds are so I can understand in depth and see what I'm the way I'm living my life or the way the things I'm doing right now is in line with that.
If not, then I understand why I'm suffering or why my business not working because I'm trying to, I'm not using my strength, you know? So this is why it's so important for the kids to say, okay, you know, we're using soccer as a vehicle, but then we want to kind of, you know, just get them thinking about this other aspect of their life, which will help them when they grow, you know? And I think that's more important than just being a soccer player. So this is why, yeah, Wumble.
is becoming not just a soccer field or they can come and kick the ball and go, but just try to empower them outside of their soccer life as well. So I'm sensing, Kamal, that all of the changes and new circumstances you've experienced from, you know, moving, in your home country, moving to Australia, moving clubs, moving to professional sport, moving into a sort of CEO type role of Womble.
All of that kind of changing and flexing into those new roles, if you like, or new circumstances have really given you a sort of, yeah, I was just thinking that all the changes that you've experienced, you know, moving from moving within your own, in your home country, then moving to Australia, community sport, professional sport, and now leading an organization.
All of those changes and fitting into new circumstances have, I get the sense that they've, that all of that change has created a more positive or at least a stronger mindset, a stronger sense of purpose. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. You can only be challenged if life puts something in front of you, you know, and you know, if I I was if I was just in Ethiopia in one place, nothing happened.
And then I won't be going through all these processes or all this adaptation that I've gone through. Right. So God has a funny way of testing you. And, you know, even though the world the war that happened in Ethiopia and being separated from my dad was a terrible thing. But then, you know, gave me the opportunity to come to Australia and to do things that I would never have thought I would be capable of, you know, to reach my potential if you like it. And when I look back at it, it's amazed me.
I mean, there's a lot of things that I haven't talked to you about in terms of, obviously, all the things that I had to go through to get to where I am. Because when people say, I play for Australia and I play professional, but to get to there, you know, there's so many things you have to come through. And it's a good thing because if it was easy, then everybody does it. And all those hard things made me like you said, more open-minded person who want to contribute to the world.
And I feel like, you know, I have a calling and that's, know, and a one ball and giving back and seeing kids play soccer and have that joy is, I feel like that is what I want to do. And yes, all the experiences that I had definitely helped make my decision in terms of why I started a non-for-profit organization, for example, rather than a profit organization where it's an academy and we charge kids a lot of dollars to participate.
So because of I have those challenges when I was younger and I understand how hard it was for families and for myself. You know, for me and for the organization was the right one. So yeah, I am am absolutely glad that you know the through the all the challenges I went through because you can only grow. when you challenge, when everything's easy, you don't learn anything. yeah, it's been a great experience.
now I'm still getting challenged as a founder and as a director of Wombo because that's something that I've never done before. And I'm learning as I go. Thank you, Kamal. And I'm just, I just want to sort of make the observation really that I've seen you in action with those kids and those young people. And, you know, we talk a lot about in, in coaching training and in kind of mentor coaching about, you know, coaching can be quick. It can be to the point. It should be in partnership.
And I see the, conversations that you have with some of those young people and the mutual respect and the space that it creates for you to have those really encouraging kind of positive conversations with those young people where they get to explore just a little bit of their world with you in a way that's helpful and useful and purposeful for them.
So yeah, I just want to say it's been lovely to see you in action and it excites me to see something that I'm passionate about coaching and helping people kind of come to their own insights and conclusions about life. It's exciting for me to see glimpses of that in the work that you do with the young people at Womble. So yeah, thank you for letting me have a little window into it.
Just before we finish, Kamal, if there's, if there's, if, If people want to kind of delve a little bit deeper into this idea of, well, you've been talking about a lot of things really, adaptability, positive mindset, values and purpose, are there some areas, some things that have really helped you that you might recommend to others? What would I recommend? think, you know, for me, was patient and not taking it personal got me really in a place where I didn't lose my tempo.
You know, like I said, there's been times in my own teammates have caused trouble for me. because, you know, I've always been the only African player in the team or even when I was playing for Australia and they didn't like that. So, you know, they caused the trouble for me to fight them to do this and I used not to fight them, but show them on the field. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So, I would go and play if they're being racist to me or they're fighting me or something like that.
I would be so upset inside, but my mentality was, okay, so you don't think I am good enough. You don't think I belong here. So I'm going to show you on the field exactly that. And I will go and play one of my best games. And then afterwards they will come to me and try to be my friends or to apologize to me. So for me, had to adapt. I had to adapt rather than fighting. or rather than talking, I wanted to show by actions, right? Because that is the best way.
You know, cannot talk your way out of things. You you show by actions and that was enough. You know, what else can they do? You can't do anything. If they're telling you you're not good enough or you're this, don't belong here and you go and score two goals or become best on ground. they really can't say anything because you're showing them by action, you know. So for me, I would say, you know, just to be patient and to show by example, you know, by your actions. That's one thing I would say.
I love this observation and you're almost kind of bringing us full circles to where we started, which is, you know, the challenge I'm taken away from this conversation Kamal is, you know, I feel really committed to issues around equity and diversity. And I'm just going, are my actions showing it?
And so, you know, I think that's a really useful useful kind of note to finish on so that we can yeah that listeners can perhaps think about yeah what's what's the thing I'm passionate about and are my actions demonstrating it and what might I need to do to bridge that gap. Yeah, absolutely.
mean, like I said, know, adapting to something, it's hard, you know, it's hard, especially if there's something that you haven't, it's completely different, for example, from Africa to Australia, that's big, massive, you know, it's gonna take a while. So people need to understand that you have to give these people. the time for them to adapt to things, you know?
And in coaching, I read a statement today, sorry to go out of topic, but Asan Benga, the coach said, you know, it's kids from five to 12 years old to have no coaches rather than have a bad coach. Interesting. Yeah, because the kids, you know, this is why it's important the role we're playing when we're coaching young kids. They are still very young. They're still open-minded. Anything you do, anything you say, will stick, right? And you can mold them to have a different mentality.
So when you have a bad coach, he's going to influence them in a bad way. And I agree with that, what he said. So it's better for them to just have fun and be... open-minded rather than being told something that doesn't benefit them. yeah, at one ball, it's very important that obviously our coaches have a good role model to the kids.
Yeah. That feels like a perfect place to land Kamal and if listeners are interested in finding out more about Kamal's work, we'll put the various links to Womble, the social media links, et cetera, et cetera, in the show notes. I'm sure Kamal would be open to some feedback and to hearing from folks who might be interested in his work as well. So I just wanna say thank you so much Kamal for sharing.
sharing a little glimpse really into your story because there's clearly a lot more to a lot more that could be unpacked here. But thank you for the challenge that you've laid down and for your openness and yeah, and sharing with us this morning. So thank you so much for your time. And we look forward to seeing you in the next episode where we pick up another leadership trait and take another deep dive into it with another guest in the arena.
Thank you for listening and hopefully we'll be talking together soon. Thank you. Thank you, Kirsty. I appreciate it. It's been pleasure talking to you and thank you for having me. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time.