You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Welcome to this week's episode. I'm Claire Pedrick and today I'm in conversation with coach Rachel Alvarez-Reyes. Welcome, Rachel. Hi, Claire. Thanks for inviting me. It's a pleasure. We've had contact over a long time, I think, haven't we? Yeah, quite a number of years actually, yeah. Yeah, that's great. Well, it's great to have you at the Coaching Inn.
Tell us a bit about your coaching journey, Rachel. Okay. Yeah, I mean, my professional journey started out in the international development sector, working as a consultant in kind of different sort of spaces within that aid sector. And I got to the point where I was starting to lose my sense of purpose or motivation. There were things about the sector that didn't feel entirely comfortable. to me.
And I also started to on how I was starting to be in more sort of leadership roles within the projects I was on and got exposed to some coaching training quite a few years ago as a maybe this is a skill set that I could bring to support me as a consultant. And on that course, which was one of these free sort of taster courses that I did, that was my first introduction to coaching, which was a world I hadn't been exposed to before. And it totally blew my mind.
And although I didn't choose to train with that organization, it did set me on the course to sort of look into different training options and start thinking about this as a... an area that I could perhaps go into aside from or away from the international development sector because it felt like a more empowering way to engage with people than as a consultant or an expert as I have been doing for much of my career.
So I trained as a coach about eight years ago, just over eight years ago, and have been building up my confidence and my practice as a coach since then. I formed a small company with two former colleagues. We all came from the same international development consultancy company. Each found our way to coaching in different ways and started conversations around how we were applying coaching to our work or to the sector. And we formed a company about two years ago called Copperfinch.
So we've been engaging in work within that sector and other kind of related. areas since then. In a nutshell. And one of your colleagues is Sarah Jane Marriott, who's been a guest at the Coaching Inn. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. What a delight. And you've recently engaged in the unlearning circle with Liz Price, haven't you? That's true.
And I really must thank you for that, Claire, because I came across Liz and her work and the unlearning circle through one of your earlier podcast, Liz was on talking about race and her experience doing the process herself.
And when it was quite quite a revelation to hear that podcast, it resonated so strongly with me that I was like, wow, this is this feels like the next sort of natural spec, step for my own learning journey, to bring together many of the things areas that I'd been thinking about for a while. So yeah, I've been on that journey, we're maybe halfway or a little over halfway through that journey and it's been, yeah, it's been quite an interesting process, if that's the right word.
Yeah, I'm hoping that the next dates she's set are going to be dates that I can make as a delegate because I really, really want to do it. Yeah, I strongly recommend it. I mean, it's it's quite a time commitment, both in terms of the actual time you're you're engaged in the process, but also the the time it takes up headspace, because it is it for me, at least it was a lot of kind of thinking that I hadn't done much deep work on before. So it was yeah, it was quite confronting.
I think that's probably the word for it. But Liz has kind of held that space so beautifully that we've, yeah, it's been very worthwhile. I'd recommend anybody stepping into that space if they feel that that's work they want to do. So what of the unlearning are you willing to share with us today, Rachel? What is the unlearning? Hmm. Well, for me, it really, it really brings together my own kind of complicity in racism.
think that's that's the that was the big revelation I had in this process, because I think for much of my my work, I mean, I've been engaged in the international development, the aid sector, which is is I mean, it's based on racism, really, if you think about it. And the structures are still very racist and very much mirror those which were formed during the colonial era. So I think the revelation for me was that racism is something that anyone with white privilege is.
going to be carrying elements of that and unconsciously acting on that in their day-to-day life, unless they have spent some time doing that deeper work, really reflecting on how their actions and their words and their thought processes are based on some of these kind of structures and assumptions. I imagine it's quite a surprise.
to many listeners that somebody who's worked in the aid and development sector should be discovering some of these things for the, you know, almost for the first time, because if you talk about diversity and everything, you've worked in a very diverse context, you, for your whole career, and yet. there's all that underneath thing. And I'm really curious about what you said about it being built on colonialism.
Yeah. And there's certainly elements of that that I was obviously aware of, but I felt that so long as my actions weren't overtly racist and I was being kind of a good white person, as it were, and not having these awful thoughts and beliefs about other people, that therefore I'm not racist. But that's the thing with doing this work, is that you're realizing that there's quite a lot that you're carrying along with you, that you're not really acknowledging your privilege.
you're just realizing that actually my initial motivations for going into the sector in the first place. when I studied it at university, international development and learnt about the historical, the history behind colonialism and the injustice of that, I felt very moved to be part of something that was trying to right those wrongs.
So reading this book, Me and White Supremacy, you really see that's white saviourism in action, me kind of coming into to that space as the white person to rescue people who they really don't need rescuing, obviously feeling that I have something to offer and some expertise to lend to that task of developing other countries, which, you know, when you think about that, it's kind of arrogant, really.
And going back to your point about coming to this for the first time, think that's that's another realization I had without really kind of going into it in enough depth. I've recognized that for much of my consultancy career, I'll be given all sorts of labels on different projects that I was on of an expert in this or an expert in that. I've been an expert in all sorts of things and felt deeply uncomfortable about that.
that label and try to of shy away from that without recognising perhaps what's behind that discomfort, which is the power imbalance and the discomfort that somehow my expertise is more important than the expertise of those I should be partnering with or working with. as a consultant. And I think that's what attracted me to coaching when I first experienced coaching because it felt like such an empowering way. or a way to sort of redress that kind of power imbalance in how I work with others.
So I think there's a lot of kind of lessons from coaching that could be used within this international development sector to really enable any kind of experts coming in to work in partnership more effectively with others. And there's that partnership word again. And it's what's really partnership, isn't it, rather than what's given the name partnership? And what does that mean we need to let go of? in service of really truly partnering. I've been thinking quite a lot this week about status.
You know, one of the things I think we have to let go of is status, isn't it? I mean, there's so much stuff that we accidentally carry and accidentally hold. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know what that makes me think of is kind of our privilege as well. That's something that we're carrying around with us, which we're not always acknowledging or. consciously kind of, yeah, consciously acknowledging. And I was listening to one of your other podcasts with Raggy Kotak. yeah.
That was, and I scribbled something down from that, which really was like quite a light bulb moment for me, kind of on this privilege, area of privilege, because she made a point about that she's not against privilege. You we've all got privilege in different ways. intersectional kind of privilege, but it's what you do with your privilege and how you create space where your privilege is used to support those around you. that was such a powerful statement, I thought.
We'll be hearing more from Raggi, I'm hoping next year. that's good. Yeah, I was trying to find the podcast again. It seems to have disappeared off my phone, but it's one of those ones I'd like to listen to again and take more detailed notes. I've asked her if she would do some training. wow. OK. Yeah, to help us to really look at this, because Liz is thing, the unlearning circle is coming from one space, isn't it?
And the thing I love about Raggy is that she's such a provocateur, know, her thing is about provoking. So Liz's style is about holding and that's a really brilliant space to do some really good work. And probably a good provoke is a great thing. You know, it's very uncomfortable, isn't it, when people provoke us? But I think but there's probably some really great work to be done there. Sounds interesting.
So that will be some, hopefully we're having a conversation about doing something next year, 2023.
Yeah, I'm still kind of exploring or trying to sort of think through where this is going or what direction this is taking me in because I'm very conscious of being a white person, kind of working in this space, so what's an effective way that I can bring this kind of learning around race and diversity and identity to how I work within the aid sector, the international development sector, alongside, you know, bringing that kind of coaching lens to the international
development sector and I was talking to a friend of mine who, because I had this, one of the ideas we were exploring at Copperfinch was bringing the coaching approach to support program teams in developing countries and particularly in those early stages when they're coming together to work on a particular program and working around some of those tricky team dynamics that come up when a new team is formed to carry out whatever sort of programme they're there to deliver.
So this is still something we're trying to explore along with kind of other ways of supporting different actors who are engaging in this space. this friend was pointing out to me that there are a lot of coaches and people from the global majority who are also doing this kind of work and perhaps they would be even better placed to do this kind of work than white women from the global minority, from a very privileged part of the world, which that gives me food for thought as well.
and where we're going or where we could be going or how we best can use our skills to be in service of. I haven't got an answer to that one yet though. Yeah, but some things don't need an answer, do they? They need to have the question held. Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and there's lots of, lots of narratives going on that I, I've been following with great interest, which I think speak to this broader question that I've been holding for a while now.
So I'm following a number of conversations around how we shift the power within the aid sector. There's some work going on around, you know, what's the inner, inner development work that we need to do to be able to work effectively to meet the sustainable development goals. It was called the Inner Development Goals. There was a summit in April, which was quite exciting when I learned that that was happening and I was able to take part in that.
So again, that brings it back to this realization that it's this inner work. that we need to do and recognising our race and our racism and how that intersects with us as well. is a big part of that, I think. And there's inner work individually, isn't there? And then there's inner work corporately. How about how do we do that work together, in service of doing that? And then who needs to be in the room? Some really deep and interesting questions around, for sure.
Yeah, and at the moment I'm at the stage of that individual in the work, I think, and kind of dipping in sometimes to what does this mean, organisationally. as Copperfinch and how we work. Yeah, so it's a journey. Yeah, and how do you hold the tension of wanting to build a business with actually wanting to build a business that has integrity and might mean that you give away half your work because it's best done by somebody else? Yeah, exactly. That's an interesting one, isn't it?
Yeah, I think it's finding that place where we can bring most value, I think, and where it's better done by someone else. I mean, perhaps the role we need to play in this kind of bigger field is somewhere else or something different, or in partnership with someone who can bring the perspective, the lived experience of those from the global majority. I don't know.
We're involved at the moment in a really exciting piece of work that's using minority people from one country to deliver work to empower a different kind of minority people in another country. I can't say more than that at the moment. We are going to write some stuff about it, but it's very interesting that there are two places where white privileged people are having to act as an introduction from one continent to another continent.
And that's happening in two places, but all we've done really is open the doors and make some introductions and then leave others to do some really brilliant work. So that's happening at the moment. And it will be really interesting to see, and that's using a coaching style. And it will be really interesting to see what the app. if that is. But yeah, how do you facilitate and not lead? How do you know when actually you have got some value to add?
And how do you know when the value that you think you're adding actually isn't value? Yeah, and I think this goes back to your point that you made earlier. It's like holding that question and seeing where you're at, at any kind of given time and knowing when to step back when, you know, your expertise or whatever is not what's needed at that time or in that situation. Hmm. Yeah. Hmm, lots to ponder.
Yeah, and there's something isn't there about leadership and humility and honesty and deep work and really truthfully owning stuff that we've thought or done or felt or not thought or not done or not felt. I remember when I when I was teaching in Kenya right at the beginning of my career. It was during the 1984 famine. And it was a really tricky time because we were living off food aid. So first of all, guilt, we're eating food aid.
Well, secondly, food aid made everybody sick because it was the wrong kind of food. So it made everyone in the village sick. It made us sick, but it was food. And I can remember every week the headmaster would go off looking for food to see if he could feed his 200 students and his six teachers. And he'd come back with whatever he's been able to find. And it was really difficult. And I can remember one day walking into the local village with some of our students.
And one of the boys said to me, he said, teacher, why do you stay? Because you could leave. Because it's very difficult. You could leave. I think the only reason we stayed is that we'd only just arrived actually. I think probably if we'd been there for 18 months, we would have left. We would have probably been pulled out, but we'd only been there a few weeks. And I really thought about that because I thought we chose to stay and I had a credit card under my bed. And that's privilege, isn't it?
Because you make a choice, but you make a choice knowing that you could go get the credit card under your bed, walk to the tarmac road, get on a bus and get out, get on a plane and come home. And so even though he said, you know, what makes you choose to stay? The choice to go was always there. The choice to say, isn't OK, you know, there isn't enough food. We're getting sick because we're not eating properly. So that boy's voice sits with me. Because. Yeah, privilege.
What was the answer you had back then? I said to him, you can't leave and we're choosing to stay with you. But you know, even then, as a very young adult, I knew inside and you could choose to go. And you could choose to go like immediately. You know, at any point that choice to leave was available. It would have been a long walk and, you know, a difficult journey, but we could have left. And therefore you've got choices every single day.
And actually, you know, even now in the UK, we're working with people who don't have choices every single day. No, they really don't. You know, people who can't pay the electricity bill do not have choices every single day. So there's privilege in being able to choose a lot of things, isn't there? Yeah. And that's not about being guilty. It's just about being honest, isn't it? I think. Yeah. Yeah, acknowledging that.
You perhaps feel uncomfortable with that knowledge, but sitting with that and, you know, figuring out, so what do I do with this privilege? How can I use that effectively to support others who aren't that kind of privileged position? Not in a kind of white savior way. So that's the other thing you have to be mindful of that you're not.
being there because, you know, it makes you feel good or you're assuaging some kind of guilt that you may feel, but you know, that it is, you know, trying to somehow level the playing field or support those who don't have the same privilege as you. It's a fine balance though, I think. Yeah. In my systemic coaching training, one of the things we talked about was, was a fair exchange. And I got an email this morning from somebody who said that there's a Ukrainian lady living locally.
Who's a doctor. And she's looking for some cleaning jobs so that she can earn some money and take her child with her. To clean. And I thought we don't need a cleaner. maybe we should give her some money. And then I thought that that's not fair exchange. Because actually fair exchange is fair exchange and just giving the money to her doesn't enable her to in the same way to keep her personal power, which is I work and in exchange I earn money.
And I don't want our listeners to get all tangled up in this because it's really easy, isn't it, that you can go into a loop and just get lost inside it. But equally, there are some really useful questions to be asking ourselves, I think. And the white saviour. stereotype because I was also a war white saviour. recovering white saviour. Yeah, because You go because you think you've got something to offer. You know, I went to Kenny because I thought I had something to offer.
I mean, what I learned when I got there was I had more to learn. And I, you know, I have to thank the humility of a lot of people for teaching me a lot of lessons that were very useful in that process. And I've still got a lot to learn. And yeah, we're humans. want to be helpful. You know, there's a part of human nature that wants to be helpful.
And actually that also sabotages coaching sometimes when in the coaching session, we want to be helpful and therefore we do too much work, which is the same thing in a different space, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think, and then that, I think that gives the illusion of you being the expert in the room, and also taking some of that power away from the listener or the person you're, you're partnering with. Because we're not sorted people. No, no, we work with people who aren't sorted.
We're broken people who work with broken people. Yeah, broken people, but broken people who have the capability to find their own solutions because they're the experts of their own lives. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Rachel, for coming and so very honestly sharing some of your unlearning.
Because I think that somebody will have gone back from a dog walk and relistened again and written down some of the things that are really useful for them to think about as a result of your being so honest and your sharing. So thank you so much for coming to the Coaching In. You're welcome. Yeah, I mean, what I'm realising is this is a lifelong journey, so I'm maybe midway along. So let's see, see where I am at the end of this process. But if there is an end, I'm not sure there is.
My colleagues, years ago, a colleague that I worked with called Judith, used to say it's better to travel, hopefully, than to arrive. And maybe that's part of this journey. Yeah, think so. because we're always going to arrive at somewhere where there's more to learn. Yeah, and isn't that a wonderful thing? Yeah, yeah. So Rachel, how do people get in touch with you if they'd like to talk more about what you do? They can find me on LinkedIn.
We also have a website at www.copperfinch.co.uk where you can see me and Sarah Jane and Joe, my two colleagues. who I work with and we're sort of on this journey a bit together. Yeah, that's probably the best way. I'm more active on LinkedIn. Okay, brilliant. And I'll put your LinkedIn link in the show notes. Thank you very much. So thank you everybody for listening. Thank you, Rach, for coming. I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been talking to Rachel Alvarez-Reyes. Bye bye, everybody.
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