You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello, welcome. I'm Claire Pedrick. And today at The Coaching Inn, we have Jenny Forge. Jenny is a doctor, psychiatrist, coach, author, and most significantly, I think, I love to call you my friend, Jenny. I think that's the most important bit for me for this conversation. And Jenny's just written a book, finally, because...
I've known it's been coming for a long time and I'm so absolutely delighted to be holding it in my hot sticky hand called Coaching in Mental Health Service Settings and Beyond. And it's just absolute delight to have somebody who's working in mental health to have written a book about using coaching. So welcome, Jenny. Hi, Claire. Welcome. Thank you very much for that very nice introduction. And it's it has been it has been a journey.
And I must say that, you know, all the way along, you were the person who sort of started me off in coaching and so, yeah, owe lot to you, thank you. Well, I've learned a lot about mental health from you, so it's a bit of a quid pro quo, isn't it? So what was the real push for you to write this? I think my main point, because it is a book mainly directed at mental health practitioners, although it's not solely for them.
My main point was that I want to emphasize that the use of coaching approaches in mental health service settings can be really valuable, you know, for service users and families, for the staff. And I just think that for me, made the sort of coaching skills and knowledge made a massive difference to the way I practice in terms of really giving the focus to the things that are important for the people I meet with. So if I'm a patient or the parent of one of your patients, what's different?
I think that my emphasis is it's very much about your agenda. I mean, obviously there are caveats. there's safeguarding or legality issues, then, know, kind of severe mental illness that means that people can't think straight or they're really out of touch with reason. That's a different matter. But I think that the main difference is that with a coaching approach in consultations, we would focus much more on what are the important goals for you? What is gonna make your life better?
The traditional approach in mental health, the traditional clinical approach has been about eliminating symptoms, in short, helping people feel better. as defined by the doctor society, know, whereas this approach enables you to kind of think about recovery or getting better much more in terms of, what's important for that person? What's going to make their life easier, more fulfilling to live? Wow. Wow. And so what's the kind of feedback you're getting? Yeah, very positive feedback.
Well, of course I would say that, I? I think that it's the fact that I've got positive feedback that has enabled me to really develop. But having coaching skills is a really valuable aspect to a mental health practitioner's repertoire, to be able to use them when appropriate. Because I think as practitioners, our role traditionally is to sort of try and fix things.
And that's okay as far as it goes, but I think a coaching approach... particularly in some areas of mental health, is going to be much more useful because what we need to do is support people to make the changes that are going to be meaningful to them. So we're more facilitating rather than fixing.
And I think that that also has huge benefits actually for the practitioners involved because my experience is both personally and having worked with people over the years that There's often this feeling of over-responsibility as the clinician or as the practitioner that you've got to sort absolutely everything. When really that's just not realistic.
There's so many other factors and it can be quite disempowering sometimes for people to imply that the practitioner is the total expert who's got all the answers. There are times when actually people do... feel the need just to say, okay, I'm not coping, help me.
And that's, you know, I think that that's the skill actually in, in some kind of coaching work in this field is to know when it's appropriate, because sometimes people just need looking after, they need compassion, they need somebody to cry with somebody to listen to them, they need to be heard. And at other times when hopefully they're feeling a bit more robust. what they find more helpful is somebody to support and challenge them to move in the direction that they want to go.
So a real empowerment there. Yeah, that's what I'm aiming for. And one of the most rewarding pieces of work actually that I did was with a group, a parent-carer support group. And that was using coaching sessions with the person who was instrumental in setting up that group. But then also doing some coaching work within the group itself or using a coaching approach.
I'm not kind of talking about sort of formal coaching sessions, but using those skills of kind of really encouraging people to think about possibilities and options and to think about their values, their strengths, their ways forward. And that's all about coaching being optimistic and future focused, isn't it? That there's hope in it. Yeah, definitely.
And I think that that's one of the things, one of the things that I think is so important and also from my own experience of having recovered from severe physical illness, that having hope, you know, being realistically optimistic. I'm not saying just pretending everything is rosy and being falsely positive, but I think when you feel a bit more hopeful, you can also be bit more accepting of yourself, the situation and others.
yeah, being hopeful is a really important part of it and being future-focused, which obviously coaching is predominantly about the present and the future. That's not to say that there's not relevance. in the past because we all need to learn from the past and kind of move on. So I'm not saying that we would, that in my practice now that I would not go back to the past because of course that's really important, but there is an emphasis of okay, so what now? Yeah, yeah.
And there can be a what now. Yes. And that's something. And I think also just sort of going back to what I said, there are, you you, when people are at their lowest points or at their most anxious or at their most muddled, they're not really going to be able to think about what now or what future. But, know, so that's, I know I'm repeating myself, but it's getting back to that point about get the timing right to introduce a coaching approach.
You know, and sometimes people will get stuck on a sort of almost rather negative script and a coaching approach that's future focused and realistically optimized. can help to sort of move them on from that. Fantastic. So what's your dream? If you could kind of wave a magic wand and have this beautiful book have its biggest impact in the world. What's your dream, Jenny? there we go. Big question.
I guess that I would really love love it for mental health practitioners to routinely incorporate some coaching skills into their work. And health practitioners more widely actually.
And I know that a lot of them, and if there are mental health practitioners listening, they probably say, well, I use, I use coaching anyway, you know, because there is an assumption, I think, amongst some health practitioners, that they'll automatically be good at coaching, that coaching is sort of part of what they do anyway. And again, that may well be true up to a point and they may have the talents and aptitudes that make them good coaches.
But I found myself when I trained as a coach, I'd really made some assumptions that I would automatically be good at coaching because I've been a clinician for so long. But it's more about, I think, unlearning, sort of being less of an expert. we're paid to be experts in the NHS.
We don't need to, we shouldn't take that hat off altogether, but there are times actually, you know, when really we have to acknowledge we're not the experts on people's lives, they are the experts on how they live their lives. So I think my dream would be for all health practitioners to really understand what coaching is and to incorporate it, you know, when the time is right and in appropriate ways to how they work.
Yeah, and the kind of coaching that we're talking about here is facilitating somebody else to come up with their own solutions, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. It's not a formulaic set of questions. You know, I think that those sorts of sets of questions that sometimes we learn as coaches, of series of questions to get to a certain point, they can be incredibly useful. But I think it's part of the Part of the getting this right is getting the balance between structure and looseness in a conversation.
And if you have a series of questions that you run through as the coach or in the coaching role, you're not really so much thinking about the person that you're with and what they're saying. You're thinking about what questions do I ask next? So it's really got to be sort of flexible. I've heard that term agile. coaching before, I haven't read a lot about it, but I suspect that that's what I'm talking about maybe.
It's being able to sort of really, I've heard you use that phrase, dance in the moment. It's kind of thinking about, that maybe sounds a bit flowery, but you know what I mean. I think it's that sort of really being receptive to what's going on. And that's where the old attentive listening comes in as well. Yeah, and it's the extra value that comes from being a human with a human. Yeah. Rather than a human with an app with those questions on.
Yes. Because an app with those questions on actually has a place. Yes. But if it's a human asking questions, we've got to respond to what happens and it's about timing, isn't it? And it's about tone and it's about all kinds of things. Yeah. And I think that the the principles that underline some of those sets of questions we can still adhere to whilst being flexible. that it's that really, you know, cultivating that self-awareness and the awareness of the person that we're with.
And we can do that virtually as well as face to face, obviously. know, sometimes, I mean, I know that you, you know, you've been working virtually for years and years and years. I was really sort of thrust into it at the start of the pandemic, but I still, I still, know, old habits die hard. still have a preference myself for working face to face with people. And it feels more immediate. But yes, that kind of constant, almost unconscious or partly conscious checking in, where is that person now?
Where am I? Well, it's kind of empathy, isn't it really? It's so important and it's not to be underestimated. I think if people are... If people are fired, a sort of set of questions, boom, boom, boom, they really don't feel so heard. So that's an important thing. Because even if they're positive questions, sound, feel like an interrogation, don't they? Yeah, yeah. And I think I want, know, that your thing about really simple questions comes back time and time again.
Do not interrupting someone's flow. that sort of, you know, just the dropping in of an and, or a really, or a what else, all those sorts of things are key, aren't they? Yeah, and I, as you're talking, I can, this is slightly different, but I think it's the same sort of thing. I can remember being with our neighbor when he was dying and his wife asked me to go in because a health professional that he hadn't seen before was coming to visit.
And the question that the reason the health professional was coming was a very specific, I can't remember what, but it was a specific kind of sophisticated, how do I manage this bit question? And she said, before we start speaking, I need to ask you some questions. His speech was going, he had motor neurone disease, his speech was going, so speaking was difficult. So she goes, have you ever smoked? And I'm sitting there thinking.
Number one, every health professional who he's spoken to has asked him that question. Number two, he's going to die in the next few weeks, probably. What value does asking that question add for him in this moment? And then we got, have you ever drunk? Have you ever done this? And actually it was something about, the question was something about swallowing or I can't remember what it was, but it was, all they wanted to know was, Is there a way in which you can help us to do this thing?
Yes. And those are health related questions, but those kind of stock coaching questions can feel like that, can't they? You know, I just want to talk about this. Yes. Yeah. And you're asking me about that. Yeah. And that being in tune with where a person's at and starting where they are is so important. And I think in order to do that, whether you're a coach or a mental health practitioner or a health practitioner or all three, that is such an important thing, isn't it?
To sort of being, and sorry, what I was saying was to do that, you need space to reflect. You need to kind of give yourself a little bit of time to reflect and actually clock where is this person right now? What's gonna be most useful for them? And I do think that, you know, in terms of silence sometimes. Sometimes it's, you know, important not to ask the question, isn't it?
So that, I think it was Nancy Klein or, you know, the time to think people say, you know, for the coach to run through their mind is what I want to say next more important than giving this person silence so that they can think what they're thinking. And I think that that's, you know, that's really valuable as well. The other thing though that I would say is that some, know, again, it's all a question of balance, isn't it?
Because sometimes you do get people who really just want to vent and go over and over the same old thing. And I know that you use that question something like, how long do you need to get this off your chest before we can start to do something about it? some version. I think my version is a bit more polite than that. Yes, that does sound a little bit. in Perthland, doesn't it? But that kind of idea about, you know, we need to get on here.
it's that sort of, you don't want to rush people, but you don't want to get stuck on a certain thing. And so I often say, you know, when I, and I think I probably got this from you, I got a lot of stuff from you, is, you know, at the beginning to let people know, or to ask people actually, probably more accurately, is it okay to interrupt? it, you know, because I think, and I find this in group situations as well.
So focus groups and things like that, where I think also a coaching type approach can be quite useful in facilitating those groups is to say at the beginning, know, forgive me, I may need to interrupt, but you know, is that okay? And so then when you do interrupt, they don't feel quite so, I've been cut off in my prime, but interrupting, know, timely interrupting and in a good way, obviously more tactfully than I described there is... is a key skill as well, I think.
Yeah, and it's about future focused interrupting, isn't it? So to say, so let's just check in here. What do we need to do now? Rather than we have completely gone off track. Yes. You very bad people. Yes. OK, that's that's true. That's that whole idea of kind of bringing a bit of judgment into it. The venting one, if people want to know, is I say, is it useful to take five minutes? just to get that off your chest. It's five minutes going to be enough.
Because that boundary is the time so that we don't lose the beautiful space and time that we've got to do some good stuff with them just going over and over. Yeah, you're dead right. That does sound very much better. Rather than how long are you going to need to carry on with this? So. What makes your book different from other coaching books? Well, I think it's the fact that it incorporates a lot of experience from different perspectives.
So experience from the perspective of being a medical doctor, being a psychiatrist, being a coach as well, and being somebody who has you know, and I'm sure actually there's probably lots of coaching books where people have had serious illnesses themselves, but having, having had a serious illness myself and having had some coaching that really helped me sort of think about how I wanted to go forward following that experience.
So what makes my book different is that I suppose I bring a number of perspectives and for people working in, in mental health sphere, which, and it is directly mainly for those people. although you could argue that all coaches are working very much within the mental health sphere, that, you know, I think that those different perspectives add value.
Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of wisdom from a lot of deep experience, because I think that's what makes you unique, Jenny, is that you've got deep experience as a psychiatrist. You're a professional certified coach, so you've got a lot of experience in coaching. You've got a lot of experience in coaching in a medical setting, colleagues and service users. So you've got lots of buckets of depth. Yes. And thank you.
And I also think that all these experiences sort of constantly remind me that there's that real sane botanist. Yeah, absolutely. it all, you know, that whether, you know, we're service users, practitioners, whatever role we have, there's more that sort of we have in common and we can really draw on that to support each other. That sounds a bit schmaltzy, but you know what I mean. That's great. But yeah, yeah, I'd like your wisdom.
And there's so much wisdom in the book that makes it a really great read, I think, for people in the health world. Thank you. So what about the question that, in fact, we'll be coming back to in two weeks with Verity Simcox about how do coaches engage around the boundary between what's okay and what's not okay in relation to mental health?
Yeah. I think that they used to be a rather... I was going to say false, but it's kind of an unrealistic division between people saying what's coaching and what's a mental health issue. I think it's much more of a spectrum because I think, you know, every coach is going to encounter people who are, you know, at times, you know, in varying degrees of emotional stress and distress.
And I think, you know, that that self-awareness, that tuning into the situation, that You know, bringing some real common sense to situation is very important. think it's coaches need to know the limits of their training and experience in the same way that any practitioner does. know, coaches can't assume that they're going to be good therapists, good therapists can't assume they're going to be good coaches.
So I think that it's knowing the professional, whether they're a coach practitioner needs to know themselves and the limits of their knowledge. And I think for coaches dealing with mental health difficulties that emerge in the room in front of them. And there's a section in the book about trauma.
know that other authors have written a lot in a lot more detail about trauma and coaching, but I think it's that awareness is key, that being in tune with the person, being on the lookout for safeguarding issues and really knowing where the supports are that you can call on as a coach. if you feel in deep water. And this is where, you know, the importance of contracting really comes in and sort of being clear about confidentiality and the limits of that confidentiality at the beginning.
So I was speaking with a coach recently who said that they, you know, for the first time in very many years, they'd encountered somebody who literally seemed to, you know, become really quite emotionally ill, mentally ill in front of them. they said, It hadn't happened to that extent before, but this coach was extremely grateful that they knew about who to turn to and the structures within the organization.
I think that knowledge, having done your homework around the situation and being clear is an important sort of safety net really. I don't know, does that answer what you were asking Claire? Yes, it does. And I think there's something we're going to do a podcast in next month about disaster ethics. And I think one of the disaster ethics things that is really worth people thinking through is if you are working internally, then you already know.
And if you don't know, you can practically find out what do I do if somebody comes to me in that extreme distress where something where some action needs to be taken? Yeah. For coaches who are coaching externally, that's a really important thing to think through. What am I going to do when that happens? Because it will. Yeah. And where do I go and what's safe?
And if I'm working with somebody outside of my own country or inside my own country, do I know what action I'm going to take in that moment? Because I think that when you're when you've just got it in the back of your mind, then that reduces your anxiety about, allows you to be much more alert and aware and noticing to see that it's coming up. Yeah. And I think that that's, you know, those are really important points.
And I hadn't actually thought, I know you do a lot of work with people in other countries. I hadn't thought, my goodness, what happens if, you know, cause I've got no idea about the sort of the health systems or the supports in different places. But think these things through and talk about them with, you know, with supervision or other coaches. And so have a plan. It's the same, you know, we live in a new house at the moment.
If anything happens with the plumbing, we ring the developer and they send somebody around straight away. But actually I also know the name of the plumber and the number so that when that's not going to work anymore, I'm not anticipating any problems with the plumbing, but I have a number and I know, and I know what I'll do.
Yeah. on the day that happens, because on the day that happens, if there's water spurting out of everywhere, the last thing I need to be doing is going, well, how do I find a plumber? Yes, yes. So that kind of idea about having some forward planning, knowing the territory is important. And then in addition to that, very much being in tune and flexible with what's happening, because one of the things, you know, and it still causes me anxiety, you know, having after all these years, I still worry.
have I done the right thing? Have I said the right thing sometimes to people? That doesn't go away. And I think that sometimes there's a yearning to have a kind of formulaic right answer to know exactly what to do in certain situations.
And we don't, you know, we very often don't know exactly what to do in certain situations, but there's a certain degree of if you know that you've really been attentive to what's going on and you're calm enough to reflect in the moment, you can trust to a certain degree that you will make a good decision.
So you might not have every kind of I dotted and T crossed for all the contingencies that occur, but you can have some faith about, okay, I know that when I hit this kind of uncharted territory, I can find a way through. And some, know, there aren't easy answers. And I guess that's the nature of some of these dilemmas and certainly ethical dilemmas or clinical dilemmas that you know, that's why they're so thorny because there aren't any easy answers.
And you have to kind of do the best you can in the circumstances that you're in at the time. And you need to have the right mindset in order to be able to work in that way. Yeah. Yeah. So it's about mindset. It's about information and it's about, it's about dancing in the moment. It's about working out together what needs to happen.
Yeah. And I do think, and I, you know, this, know that compassion is, has been a bit of a buzzword over, over recent years, but I really think it can't be overstated really. I do think that sometimes when there aren't easy answers in a situation and I'm not talking about kind of really sacchariny, syrupy compassion. I'm talking about compassion, about really kind of solidarity with somebody.
really kind of connecting with them in a kind of solid way that even if there's not much else you can do in some of these horrible situations that, you know, I'm not saying that coaches will routinely find themselves in it, but certainly, you know, people working in crisis teams and things that may well do, that that is so important. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for coming to The Coaching Inn. It's always a pleasure. are we done? Pleasure. that's, that was good. Yeah. Brilliant.
was, that was quicker. That went quicker than I anticipated. Lovely. Thank you. So if you want to read Jenny's book, it's coaching in mental health service settings and beyond by Jenny Forge. And if people want to get in touch with you, Jenny, how do they do that? LinkedIn message. Okay. Please. Yeah. And I'll put your LinkedIn on the show notes. Great. Thank you very much, Claire. It's a pleasure.
If you had one thing that you could leave our listeners with right here right now, what would it be? It would be if you're a mental health practitioner, develop your coaching skills to use at times in your work. And the second thing actually, give you two, second thing is if you're a coach, then really having an awareness about mental health issues, wellbeing will enhance your coaching. Brilliant. Thank you, Jenny. So I'm Claire Pedrick.
And I've been in conversation with Dr. Jenny Forge, PCC, author of Coaching in Mental Health Service Settings and Beyond. Bye-bye, everyone. Bye, thank you. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time.
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