You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's episode, which is about business building with a difference, I guess. So we got a great email from someone who said, I've listened to two episodes recently that really resonated with what I often wrestle with as a coach. They were your conversation with Sarah Short from the Coaching Revolution and your business coaching special.
They highlighted for me a tension I constantly wrestle with between not promising outcomes because they're entirely dependent on the work the client does. And if we oversell, it might not get the outcomes they'd hoped for versus acknowledging what Sarah and most of the marketing advice for coaches I've read says that people buy outcomes and results and that we need to talk about what the coach you're thinking will get from the coaching, which also makes sense.
So she says, I'd love to know what you think about this tension between the two. I've noticed that when I try and focus on my marketing, my ideal client, my niche, my outcomes, I end up feeling a huge pressure to deliver that for the client. And it really impacts how I coach as well as feeling like an integrity issue. I find it much harder to be attentively not bothered when I've promised outcomes. And I think it also impacts how they show up in the coaching. So great question.
Thank you for that. Sadly, The person who sent this email is not able to join us, but she will join us later on down the year. And I'm sure we will have something great to talk about then. So today I'm in the good company of Kerry Pocock and Nathan Whitbread, who, when I put out on LinkedIn, who wants to talk about this? When I do. So Kerry, welcome. thanks. Tell us a bit about you.
So I have been working as a coach for about six years in various different capacities in charities and organisations, some private work and I'm a mum of two and that's probably enough for the moment. Fantastic and Nathan Whitbread coming for a return visit. Yeah absolutely thanks Claire. Yeah so my name's Nathan Whitbread, I run an organisation called the Neurodivergent Coach so it focuses a lot on neurodiversity but also leadership and development.
I'm also a father of four children, three of them who are broadly neurodivergent, one who's fairly neurotypical, though the jury is still slightly out on that. And yeah, this is just a topic that kind of caught my imagination really, so it was just lovely to come and speak to you again, Vesna. So what do we think about this tension between to niche or not to niche, to promise outcomes, not to promise outcomes? Well, I got a little bit of a take on that, actually. been thinking quite a lot of it.
Sorry, I didn't mean to jump in, but... Just on that nation thing so I think I think to nation not to not to niche is a question but there's also a question where there's to differentiate or not to differentiate and I think actually we can get a bit obsessed with nation.
And I think it's more important to think about, but if you're not if you're going to niche then each I mean obviously I niche to be here and not really intentionally but more because I felt that's who I was and then no one really explains me if you call your organization and name. That's your niche. But that's kind of happened later. And that's fine. But it's then differentiating who you are. How are you going to do things differently? Because that's almost as important as niching.
I don't know what you think about that, Yeah, I think it's a really, at one point, when I first started my coaching, I kind of niched accidentally by doing some decluttering work with people. And a lot of my coaching ended up around that. But I really missed the, the what sort of broader depth of working with lots of different people. So I kind of realized that actually I didn't want to niche myself and came back out of it.
But I think, yeah, that sort of feeling of delivering outcomes for people is a bit of a pressure on, it? And in our terms and conditions that we give to people we coach, we say, you know, the outcomes are down to you. We can't guarantee any because it's down to you to do the work, which I think is the ethical stance. But equally, people want to know what they're going to get out of it, don't they? I met someone this morning who does coaching and does something else.
And I can't remember exactly what she said, but it was something like, I work with people who don't have time to do that. Whatever it was, she said. And I thought that was really, that was a really neat way. But if you say, actually, I haven't got time to do that. So that wasn't a coaching piece of work, but it was another piece of work. But like you'd go, yeah, that's me. I don't have time to do that. So there's something about how do we help people know that it's them that we can support.
But is it about supporting them or is it about holding a space? Well, it is about holding a space. Because I think actually, so it's interesting the example you used just then, you say I could paint my house, but I know it would take me ages. In fact, we hired our first decorators ever this year, which was just amazing. Mrs. Wetbay was very happy. It was done in a week instead of like six months. And it was perfect because that's what they do.
Yeah. So I'm sure we could hold our own space or we could get a friend to help us hold our space, but it's not what they do. It's not their thing that they practice and hone and sharpen day in, day out. And actually holding the space is where the thinking happens as far as I see it. And that's what the fundamental is. I know there's a lot more on top, but if you hold the space, actually lots can happen. That's so interesting though, isn't it?
Because these need like analogy of the painter, you know what you're going to get at the end. And they did it perfectly, because we know what the perfect looks like when they finished. Whereas trying to sort of sell that. And also, I think there's that thing around to not, not always, not always knowing what it's going to look like at the end. How do you sell that? Yeah, and I say to people, we don't know what's going to happen.
but you will have done some work and it will have moved you forwards. And I think there's a difference, isn't there, between how we describe it to people who we're in conversation with and how we describe it to cold calling as it were. you know, the whole thing that we've talked about before at the coaching in about what's your tagline on LinkedIn when everybody's tagline seems to be coach, you know, what can, what what's differentiates. I even know what my tagline is on LinkedIn.
And what it'll be by the time we finish this conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I do wonder whether sometimes those LinkedIn taglines are door openers just to kind of start a thought process going. because I think actually for lots of people, they don't necessarily really understand what coaching is and their experience can often be influenced by what's happened to them.
So I'm sure we've all had good and not so positive experiences of coaching in many guises, be it on the football field or actually in more of what we're talking about here in terms of this kind of, this sort of style of coaching. And I think that's really important. I think if it's okay to be part of my own journey of why I ended up wanting to get accredited and stuff is because recognising actually, this isn't a cottage industry.
It has to be professional because actually when we're in the room with someone, we have the most incredible opportunity to help them move forwards or to really damage them. And what really influenced me about this Excuse me, I've got a bit of a tangent, but I listened to a book called Quirkyology recently, which is the most amazing book is by this guy. He's a professor in Hatfield University and he investigates weird stuff.
But one of the things he was looking at was Victorian seance tricks where they used to trick Victorian people into believing that spirits were there and they had all these various tricks. the most important powerful trick that he identified was suggestion. Yeah, so when he told the people in the room the table was moving, they all believed him even though they didn't move. And I just think we've got that exact same power in the coaching room.
If we're not accountable, if we don't know what we're doing and we're not really aware of why we're there. that Richard Wiseman? He's not Richard Wiseman, I'll find out for you. We'll put the reference in the show notes. he is Richard Wiseman, no you're right, yeah, sorry you're on it. I'm terrible with names, it's my dyslexia. But you're right, the power of suggestion.
And one of the issues is, I think, that when you do complexity in the coaching room and people have enjoyed the experience, they will say that it worked. But that doesn't mean it worked because it doesn't mean that they had a real shift in what they were thinking. It means that they had a lovely time. And getting some clarity around that is, I think, quite an important thing. think for me, there's another part as well around people actually investing in themselves and how the conversation goes.
Because I can go back to the painting, you know, the room needs painting, we get it done, because there's other people who are going to see it and all the rest of it. But actually, people investing in themselves when they don't have a physical object at the end of it, you know, a shiny new handbag or whatever it might be that they've splashed out on. It's that That aspect I find quite challenging as well.
One of the things that I'm noticing in the last few months is that people are now coming to me or to 3D coaching and saying, I want to experience what simplified coaching looks like and feels like. And that's quite interesting because they're saying, they're usually coaches who go, I really get this and now I want I've read the book, I get it, and now I want to experience it. So that's a surprising little line that I wasn't anticipating at any point.
But one of the ways I used to get career coaching work is that I used to say, I work with people who don't know what they want to do next and don't know how to work it out. Because why did they come to coaching, to career coaching for that very reason? They had no idea, because if they had an idea, they'd have gone somewhere else and done it in a different way. So I think we can be clear without being so, so, so specific.
I'm also where Sarah's probably listening to this and going, niche Claire, niche. Is she a big niche fan, is she? yes. But you know, she's right that if we can say we work with women under between 30 and 45 who live in rural Norfolk, then those people will know that that's who we're working, that we're talking to, that that specific niche makes a really big difference. But the question is, I guess, how do we enable other people to know that we're here?
And that, and as you said, Nathan earlier, what's the differential? Yeah. And I think there's, there's something in there about putting yourself out there. And I think that's a really scary thing for lots of people. So, but for me, what I found really helpful in this space is finding your tribe. Yeah. So, and, and I think there's, and there's something, I think it's probably something you've talked about Claire, so. to just stick your hand up if I'm just nicking your stuff.
But this idea that actually, if you want to go and work with bank managers, don't hang out with coaches. That was me and you did nick it, but I'm happy with you for saying that. Yeah, I've learned something. Yeah, honestly, if you want to work with bank managers, don't hang out with coaches. Absolutely. It's probably word for word, wasn't it? It was ridiculous. It was funeral directors, actually. it funeral directors, yeah. But it's that whole thing, isn't it?
Find your tribe, find people that do different stuff to you that wanna hang out and support you. And I think the networking bit's really important. I'm a member of a few different networks. And one of the ones that I found really helpful to start with was one called Drive, which is based in Cambridge, but it's obviously online. it's kind of, but it was just that concept. You turn up for each other and it's not about elevator pitches and all this sort of rubbish.
It's about actually, how do we get to know each other and support each other as people? So I've got a great friend I've met through there who's doing the most amazing thing ever. So he's worked with the British Antarctic Survey to design a shirt. And this shirt tells the story of global warming. It's amazing. It's really cool. And it's beautifully designed. think it's all kind of organically grown cotton and all this sort of stuff, but it's kind of got... But I've been out of work with Andy.
We've even done a little podcasty thing together and we get to share, we support each other and other people. But we've got no, it's nothing to do with coaching, but the fact that I know Andy and Andy knows me. We're talking about each other all the time and there's lots of other relationships like that. And I just think there's something about that hanging out with a bunch of people who just want you to succeed and have got you back.
I think it's probably bit of that angels stuff you were talking about, Claire, know, where'd you find your angels? Where'd you find the people that are prepared to talk about you? And there's something there about diversity, isn't there? And being with a diverse group of people, which goes back to the don't hang out with coaches piece, or don't only hang out with coaches. And don't only hang out with people who haven't got any work. Yeah. Yeah, meet interesting people.
Yeah. And be interested in them. Yeah. And not try and sell everything. Absolutely. What's your thoughts on this, Kerry? Yeah, I think I've had some interesting experiences of networking. When again, when I very first set up and was doing the decluttering work, I was like, where do I go? And there was a couple of like women's network type things and there was the kind of local guild hall type thing.
And it was so interesting kind of going and seeing all these people who were doing their elevator 60 second pitch thing and I mean, I did make some good friends through there actually and met some really interesting people doing all sorts of things, which was definitely worth it. But it did feel like a lot of energy that was being spewed out and trying to find the right place, I suppose. And I still don't think I found it, to be honest. Still looking. Yeah. But you've tried some places out.
Yes. On the way. Yeah. Again, I mean, that was definitely pre-COVID and a lot of things kind of went online and stuff changed, it? So it's yes. interesting. mean, we were working in the NHS work I do, we've set up a lot of staff networks for various different things in the last couple of years, which has been really interesting from sort of multicultural disabilities, parenting, all sorts of different kind of subjects that bringing people together. So you kind of see how well it works.
Again, it's just finding that right, the right place with the right people. Yeah. For me, one of the things that worked was to do short talks for conferences and things that weren't necessarily on coaching, but put me out in different spaces. So years ago, there was a huge thing at Olympia called One Life Live, which was a, do want to do with the rest of your life kind of conference? And we happened to have met the person who was running it through another contact.
And she just asked me to come and do a keynote every day and have some coaches around at the entrance, all of which she let us, we didn't have to pay to be there. She didn't pay us, but we didn't pay to be there either. And that produced all sorts of fruit, but not straight away. So we still have people contact us who say, I met you at One Life Live in 2009. I go, yeah, I remember that.
So. So there's something I think about timing in relation to marketing that sometimes we drip something out and it comes back a long way down the line. But I think there's also something about being realistic about how long you give something before you say, actually, this is probably not for me. I think there's something in there about what you enjoy doing as well.
Yeah. because I think especially with some of the social media stuff particularly, there's a real pressure for example to post regularly and to do write blocks. So I'm a dyslexic, I should have said, know, I've got dyslexia. So for me writing's really hard, but I've come to love it, but it's been a really hard process. But I know, but I'm exploring other ways of doing marketing because actually finding things that I actually love doing.
If I'm going to do this every week for the rest of my working career, I want to enjoy it. I don't want it to be a chore. And I think that's the thing about when we got into running a business because actually it's supposed to be fun actually. And if it's not, there's a bit of a problem there, I think. I can remember being given, I don't know if I worked that for myself or whether somebody told me a long time ago that for social media posts, you need to be interesting for nine out of 10.
And then you can afford to sell in the 10th, but you need to actually share some really good stuff for the other nine. And I think that's one of the ways of having integrity, but that means sharing, not sharing the thing that everyone else is sharing. Yeah. Because we've probably all seen runs of the same image infographic being shared by every coach under the sun. it's actually about sharing original stuff.
And certainly for me, the biggest piece of marketing, I think I've said this on the podcast before, but the biggest piece of marketing was the blog that I've written now for 20 years. In fact, Last week was the number, no this week, this Monday was number 1000. And they haven't all been great. But it's just a way of putting out something really short.
And I think one of the things that I noticed that I think isn't a great marketing tool is long and complex newsletters with lots of articles and things. I think one idea short, is a much better way of making contact with people than lots of well-written stuff, particularly now, because we're not so attentive, are we? People just aren't, people don't read a lot.
You've got to, you know, it's got to make a point and... I think there's obviously other strategy, because obviously you've written the book as well. So you've got this idea that you can always point back to the book. can say, well, here's a little snippet. And if you really want to know, go buy the book or dig in deeper, which I think is the other thing that's really important. think you're right. But the book came out of the blog. absolutely. But it's kind of, you've related it nicely.
So you start at page one and go to the end. Instead of randomly going through the last 20 years. I'm sure it'd be more fun going through the blog though. But that picks up on the concept, doesn't it, that people buy people. know, people who are buying, hiring coaches are hiring a person. So as much as maybe any coach could do the work, you know, they want to meet you and they want to hire you. So how do you, how do you find each other?
Which goes back to Sarah short thing that says, actually, if you're going to meet each other, they need to know what you do and who they are and what the outcome is. like there's something in there about that. Although I don't, you know, I went all no niches, actually being clear to people who you work with, so you know who you're looking for and who works for you and being able to be a bit clearer around what it is that happens in verbalizing, being able to verbalize it.
And I really don't think I'm quite there yet in, you it changes all the time. They're like, what do you do? And I'm like, where do I start? You know, I don't have a kind of clear couple of lines I can sum it up in, I think would be really, helpful. And I suppose that that bit around, you said in the terms and conditions, you're really clear that the outcomes are not set in stone, what could happen is this and this and this, but it is a space for you to explore.
And it says you're responsible for your own outcomes. And actually, there's an ethical thing, isn't it, that if I say these are the outcomes I guarantee, I can't, I can't guarantee outcomes. ever because I don't know what you're going to do with what we do in the room. So you might have a transformational moment that you might choose to do nothing with it. But that transformational moment can sit with you for a long time, can't it?
Before it's kind of done, it's percolating over, which I think is the other thing. One of the things I found really fascinating with some of the coaching I've done is that people have at the end chosen to not change anything, but feel completely different because they realized that where they are is their choice. Yeah. You know, so actually the outcomes were nothing has changed, but everything's changed.
So if there was one thing that you were going to do to navigate this space between holding space for people and people wanting to know what that is and who they are and how that happens, what's the one thing that you think is important? think it's really important as a coach to find your own voice in this and to ditch the coach speak and just talk about it quite plainly and honestly.
So I mean, I put a LinkedIn post out there recently saying I only work with thinkers because not just to be a bit kind of glib and kind of pokey in the eye, but actually that but that sort of stuff matters, I think, because it's just saying well, actually, let's move on from the technical stuff, because that's for coaches to kind of work out. The people we work with want to move forwards, even if it's just a little bit.
that whole thing about actually just being really clear about how you describe it and being honest about it and not getting caught up in the mumbo jumbo that we've kind of assimilated from all these wonderful books. Yeah. What do you think, Kerry? Yeah, I think it's just following on from that really. The language really matters, doesn't it? Like really just clear. keep coming back to that. talked the other week about Brene Brown's quote, that clear is kind.
That's really stuck with me, you know, just being really as clear as you can. And I guess, you know, as a coach individually, being clear about what it is that you do, because otherwise you can't tell anyone, can you? No, no. One of the things I was talking about in a supervision session this morning was, was being clear about the difference between the chatette at the beginning of a conversation and the work and saying, so it sounds like we need to just arrive. Have we done that bit?
Now what's the work that we need to do today? And the work is used in lots of different contexts, and sometimes it sounds like quite a specialized thing, but actually we are there with someone else to facilitate them to do some work. And if they don't wanna do any work, they don't wanna work with me, because if you work with me, you have to do a lot of work.
And the other thing that I do when I meet people, outside of a paid work context is I don't give them free coaching without saying, it sounds like we need a different kind of conversation here. So you have the meaty, greedy conversation. And then I say, sounds like it might be useful to have a different kind of conversation here. One of the questions I might leave you with is this. If you'd like to have a different kind of conversation, then let's talk about it.
So I'll leave them with something that will get them to start doing the work. But I will also say that would be a different kind of conversation that you and I would have together, which begins to raise the issue that actually that might be a paid thing or, you know, depending on where I meet them and what they do and how it is, I might choose to give that away. But I think there's something about going back exactly to what you said, Kerry, about about clear is kind, unclear is unkind.
And that's the same as not coaching people we meet at parties without consent. You know, it goes both ways. It's about not giving it without consent, but also people not taking it without consent. so that we make it clear what a different kind of conversation might sound like or look like. I think on that note, Claire, I'd pick up as well. My mate's a physio up the road. So he would say, actually, if I do physio on you as a friend, that means that it has to be covered under my insurance.
I am now liable as soon as I place my hands on you and give you any advice. And I think as coaches, it's sometimes because in some ways, It is easy to slip into a coaching conversation. We forget that actually that is our job and our professional liability is on the line as soon as we step into that space. So if we're half cut at a party, that's not necessarily the best space to do our best work. Just as an observation.
Yeah, and that's a really great example, you know, that difference of a physical hands-on thing where as soon as you put your hands on, you know you're doing the thing. Whereas there's so many kind of like grey areas, isn't there? Yeah. Yeah. So I would, you know, for me, the boundaries, I will offer one question, but then that's it. And, you know, what's the boundary for, you know, for each one of us will be different.
But I also think that when we're talking to people in a not agreed relationship, we need to be really careful of power dynamics, because coaching without consent is taking power over somebody else. So as much as it's meant to be partnership and there's meant to be an equality of opportunity there, what it's actually doing is to say, well, this conversation was about both of us, but now I'm making it all about you. And I'm not going to bring in my stuff anymore.
So I'm going to just, and then it can feel like an interrogation and it can feel like people are in the hot seat and all sorts of interesting things. So what's your biggest insight in this conversation? or what will you do differently as a result of this? I feel like I need to go away and do a little bit more thinking about the words I use and to just let it roll off the tongue nice and easily really and just be really clear as much as I possibly can be. Yeah, I think that would be helpful.
think the thing for me is that's resonating again and again is I spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff on my own and it's the worst place to think about it. You need to think about other people. Yeah. It's like, you know, you just get lost otherwise and you need that kind of iron sharpening iron thing going on. Yeah. And actually having said don't hang out with coaches, getting in a network of coaches who have a good throughput of work.
when you have a niche that they don't have and you work with a differential that they don't work with, that's another great way of getting of getting work. But, you know, are you every single corner shop in the country selling all the same food? Yeah. Or are you a specialist cheese shop? Are you a cheese shop? think you might be. It's true, isn't it? Because, you know, why are people going to come to your shop?
There's a, we, right in the corner from where I live, we have a cheese shop, which is why I said cheese shop. But we also have three, you know, those 7-Eleven shops that are open all day and sell everything. But one of them, instead of selling vegetables in their vegetable bins, they grow from seed beautiful bedding plants that they sell outside their shop. And everybody in the town goes there and that you can never park outside because people are buying their specialist things.
And that's because they are an ordinary 7-Eleven. who have this extra bit of value that makes people know that they're different and unique and special. I'd say that's a differentiation, Claire. Yeah, yeah. So maybe a great question to leave you with our listeners is what's your differentiation? And that might be how you do what you do. It might be to do with who you are.
It could be with all sorts of things, but know what it is because this 7-Eleven, it's outside and you can see it when you're driving down the road. So people say, where do I get bedding plants? And everybody goes, that's where you go. But also you can see it when you're out and about and you might go, I like some of those. So in the coaching space, that's an interesting question, I think, to leave people with. So Kerry Pocock, Nathan Whitbread.
Thank you very much for coming to the Coaching Inn and chewing over Think Aloud around marketing and integrity and how do we talk about ourselves. So thank you for coming and listeners, thank you for listening. Bye bye. Thank you. Bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels.
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