You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Welcome to today's edition of The Coaching Inn, where we have Nathan Whitbread on a return visit, because he sent me an email and said, tell me more about triage in coaching. So I'm Claire Pedrick, and this is Nathan Whitbread. Nathan, give us a little headline on who you are, and then tell me more about your question.
So I am a... recent graduate of the transforming conversations program. And I'm a coach and I have an organization called the newer divergent coach, which is actually started off being about me, but actually has a lot to do with how to coaching people and working with people who have newer divergent conditions and people who are in leadership who want to best use that in the workplace. My question is about triage coaching. So you had this thing that you shared Claire about triage coaching.
And it really captured me this idea that we could do a session to work out what we needed to do. And it felt for me that there was a lot you could do with that. It felt to me, it's almost like the contract for the person that's probably even bigger than maybe the piece of work that they'd come. in my situation to come to do work with me. And I was my question around it was how to do that really well. That is such a good question.
So if I just kind of, if I talk about where that came from, and then you'll probably want to come back to me with that question, because I'll have forgotten it by then. That's all right. So years and years and years ago, I used to get sent people because I was a confidential person who knew the organization hadn't met the individuals before. probably wasn't going to see them again. And somebody in that organization used to say, go and talk to Claire, we'll pay for you to talk to her for an hour.
And hopefully by the end of that hour, you'll have worked out what it is that is the intervention that you actually need for the thing that's caused other people to send you for the conversation. Because the issue is, there are so many dyadic one-to-one things, aren't there? There's coaching, there's mentoring, there's therapy, there's psychiatry, there's counseling, there's everything. And one of the issues is that many of those cost money and many of them have a waiting list.
So if somebody says to a colleague, I think you need counseling. Well, first of all, that's, I think you need. which is a piece of learning, because I hadn't realised it was quite that directive until I just said that to you. So there's something about doing to somebody else, and then they have to sit on the waiting list for the counsellor to have six sessions.
And then in session one, they realised that the thing they thought was the thing isn't the thing, and actually it's not counselling at all. So the idea of triage was a safe place that these people could come. where they didn't need to disclose what was the thing. And they could, to anyone in their organization, they might disclose what was the thing to me.
And then the coaching would be a coaching style conversation that said, by the end of this hour, our intention is that we've worked out what the thing is together and you found a really good place. to take the thing and you know how you're going to access it. So at the end of the hour, they might, I can remember one, because this probably, I'm probably talking myself into sense making here. So let me tell you a story. Go for it.
So it's funny, because as I think about this story, I can actually see that I was sitting at my desk in my old office. I can see myself sat there having this conversation with him and he wanted, He thought he might want coaching. He thought he might want mentoring, but he wasn't really sure. Right. So I said, as he arrived in the conversation, why don't you just talk out loud about the things that are happening that make you recognise that you need some kind of external support?
And he said, well, there's this and there's this and there's this. And I said to him, as I was listening, I said, it feels as though there's a gap in knowledge here, that there's something that you don't know that you need to know. It feels that there's an area where there's a gap in expertise and it sounds as though you're talking about getting some expertise in something else. So how about we spend the next 45 minutes or whatever was left working out where you're going to find those from.
So he's going, but I don't really know what the gap in knowledge is. So I said, we'll just talk about how will you know when that gap in knowledge is full? What does it look like? And by the end of the conversation, what had become absolutely clear was that he needed to find somebody in North London who knew about something very specific that I don't remember. Interesting. And that was the knowledge gap.
And he knew that he didn't know the name of a person, but they needed to be, I can't remember why, but they needed to be in North London in order for him to get the right information. And he then knew what he was looking for. And then in terms of the expertise gap, he knew that he needed to go somewhere else and find somebody who had done that before. So at the end of the hour, had cost the, his employer had paid me for one hour.
But he went away without needing to spend any more money because he didn't need to pay for the things that he then recognized that he needed. And I suspect that could have been a six session conversation. Totally. And, and we would have been sat in our ignorance together and he'd have gone, Claire, I'm still not clear. I must come back for another session. But actually the gap was was working out which bit of information and which bit of expertise were going to help him find his right network.
And so it wasn't coaching he needed. And there's another one where the employer had seen a significant change in behavior in somebody and was really worried about them and very compassionate. and wondered whether it needed, it was a conversation that needed some very, you know, some highly specialized therapy. Yeah. But the employer didn't feel that having the conversation with the person.
was appropriate to ask them what the thing was that was causing the change in behavior, because all they sensed was there was something going on in themselves or in their family or in their world outside work that the employer compassionately wanted to offer support for. But you know, when that happens, once the person set it at work, work knows. Yes. And you can't unsay it. Yeah. Exactly. So So that person was sent and the commission was, they can come to you for an hour.
Your task is to talk to them and listen to them. Confidentially, nothing is fed back to the organization. Nothing is fed anywhere. To listen to them and give them a safe place to say what the thing is, if they're able to, or to help them gently find a way of saying what the thing is. and then help them work out what is the right kind of support for them and how they're going to access that. And again, that's another kind of triage. But Nathan, thing I really like about it is it's...
It still leaves them in control as the expert in their life. And my job is to facilitate them to name the thing. And then work out what kind of interventions are available and therefore what kind of options might be good. And then in those days, if it became clear that it was therapy that was required, I had the phone number and the license from the employer to ring their triage for therapy and to directly get that person back in the system without going back through the employer.
So do you find you're still doing that sort of work now or has that sort of gone away? That's gone away, but only because I don't work with their people anymore. That's done by a colleague. So it's gone away because It's not my focus now, but I think, I think it's even better than saying have six coaching sessions because as you just said, know, if you discover in the first coaching session, somebody is really traumatized.
Yeah. And that there's a whole load of unresolved stuff where they need to just, know, there's a lot of trauma in the world, isn't there? At the moment. It really reminds me of something. wasn't directly coaching related, but It reminds me when I had a job and I got this promotion at an organization which I won't mention. And as soon as I started there, I had one person working for me. This is my first opportunity to manage someone. So was very excited.
And within our first conversation, I'd ascertain that there was some inappropriate behavior going on between that person and someone else. So they then had to introduce that person to someone who's very close to me, that they could help them navigate that situation. and then they could exit the organization. And that felt very similar, what I mean, the sense that you have to get to the root of the things that need to be sorted first before you can get on with the other stuff.
And it's almost like the bits you need to do so someone can feel safe before they're even ready to do the next piece. Does that help? No, does. It does. And I think the, I think the big issue that comes up for me as you're talking there, Nathan, is that the most caring and compassionate organizations.
You know, if you think about the most caring and the most compassionate organization you can think of where they have huge respect and well-boundaried concern for their staff, for their mental health and their wellbeing, even there, once something's been said in the context of the organization, it can't be unsaid. And that even when it's safe, you know, sometimes it's so safe that people say something and then have huge issues.
They suddenly realize I shouldn't have said that in the work context. Yeah. Cause I think there is a danger that sometimes it can be career limiting and not because of competency, but because people perceive they need to treat you differently. Yeah. And, I've just thought of another story. So I've had in my career, I've had Not many, but a few people talked to me about suicidal thoughts or suicidal things that they have tried or wanted to do.
And I can remember that happened in an organization and the person told me in a triage session and I said, there wasn't any current risk. That was clear. And I said, what do we need to do now? And they said, I don't think we need to do anything. And there was a bit of a change of mood. And I said, how does it feel? Now you've said that in a completely confidential space in the context of your organization. And they said, I've said it at work because I've said it to you. and now I can move on.
Wow. So because the organization was paying for the conversation, this was years ago, but because the organization was paying for the conversation, their perception of the conversation they were having with me was that they were having it at work and it was absolutely boundary. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was thinking about that, you know, we did that piece of work with, the gestalt hand or whatever you want to call it. So the gestalt hand, don't know. The cataleptic hand. the cataleptic hand.
What a handy name. But I was just thinking about that. That's effectively kind of what you're being in that situation. Yeah. For that moment. Yeah. And then you're gone. Yes. And you're enabling somebody to speak out something in the workplace. Yeah. That, that, that They've, they've said it in the workplace but the workplace hasn't been, you know, overhearing. And I think for some people that level of kind of candor is really important.
You know, the purpose, it's, it's a bit different from single session coaching, which I guess we'll do another podcast on because that's an interesting thing too. Yeah. And I think I got a bit confused about the two to be honest. That's why it's been good to have this conversation. So single session coaching is when somebody only needs one session and it's going to move them forward and then they can do the rest themselves.
Yeah. And actually, you know, I'm not, I'm very open about the fact that I think all coaching should start with a single session because we never know if we're going to need more or not. But, triage is slightly different because the coach will be doing quite a lot of the right sizing. Yep. So I might start. this conversation, we've got an hour to give you an opportunity to talk about what's going on. And I'm hoping that by the end of the hour, you'll have felt heard and together.
we'll have had a look at where's the best place to take this. Does this start? So in thinking about, so obviously I'm very indoctrinated with Stokers. I do love it. And I do find it really helpful. But because in a triage conversation, I guess there's a sense of, know, why you're both there already before it started, which is possibly slightly different to conventional coaching conversation, would that be fair to say?
Yes. And you're there for a very particular purpose that is co-created before you start. And that not be named before you get in the room, but you know, it's something that's causing a problem. Yeah. And, and there's something then about how do you backfill that and make sure that the organization is clear. So the organization that sent the most people used to say something like, feels like there's something, something going on here.
Right. And I'm happy to pay for you to have an hour with Claire so that you can work out together what it is and she'll help you work out where is the best place to take that, whether that's coaching or mentoring or therapy or whatever. So that by the end of the conversation, you'll have begun on the road to getting support. And you won't have had to tell me, your line manager, what it is. But there's a key component here though as well.
You've not been sent, you've been given the option that if you think it would be helpful to have a conversation with this magical lady, Claire, who will kind of help you work that out. So you're not sent. So you don't get into all that stuff with commissioned work where it's not, where you're not, you've not got agency in it effectively. And I had one, I can remember one conversation I had with somebody where it wasn't even safe enough for them to say it to me.
Right. And I said, you don't have to be here. and they stayed. And then I said, if I absolutely promise you that you don't have to tell me what's going on. Yeah. Will you talk to me? And then I said something like, it feels as though you're being quite affected by this. And I said what I saw, I'm not going to ask you to tell me what it is. I'm just wondering whether you've sought any professional support.
Yeah. And then Basically, I asked a whole load of questions and took, I was really good learning and just took the measure of what was going on from her face. Yeah. And, and I did more talking than I normally would. Yeah. So I think there was a moment when I said, you know, when people are looking for external support, number one, you've acknowledged the thing here with me. Yeah. And I'm wondering whether that's happened before.
No. So it might be that now you've acknowledged it at all, that that's enough. Yeah. Or it might be that you need to seek a friend. And then I did a kind of scoping out spectrum. with the kind of medical psychiatric kind of intervention at the far end and said, as you hear me say that, I'm guessing you're thinking about where in that spectrum this might be usefully dealt with. do I need to ask you now so that you can get a bit clearer about where you're going to get that from?
So it was a lot of It was, I was, it was, I mean, it was really amazing learning because I was having to kind of track where I could see they were and keep checking in, even though they weren't telling me anything. And it was a massive learning because at the end of it, I recognized that actually, and I saw them sometime later. Yeah. And I looked at a different body from the body I had seen in that room.
And it was only because I saw their name on a list that I was given that I thought, golly, that's that person. But I would never have known from their face and everything. And I just popped over at lunchtime, I said, I think we've met before. I don't want to ask about it, but I just want to say, you look so different. And that looks like a good thing.
But you see, I wasn't carrying any baggage in that, in that when I reconnected with them, but I did feel I had to say something because I, because of course, one of the things that we know in coaching is that people think they've told us more than they have. absolutely. Yeah. So I just wanted them to be, to remember that I wasn't number one, I wasn't going to say anything. Number two, I didn't actually hear their story. And number three, I just wanted to say, my goodness.
it looks as though you did something and that there's something you did was a really good thing. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, so I'm a great fan of triage, I have to say. It just saves an awful lot of time and hoo-ha, I think. Do you know what I like about it? I think as I've learned more about it is that ability to support without getting stuck in the stuff. Yeah, completely.
Because you don't need to, and especially if someone like the person you described isn't even in a position where they can share the stuff and you rightly as a coach, should not ask because if they said they don't want to, that's kind of part of your contract really, isn't it? Say, well, I'm not going to go there unless that changes. But that ability to operate at a level where you're helping them sort their stuff out without them even needing to tell you what the stuff is.
And the thing was very present. It wasn't like we were pretending there wasn't a The thing was right there and it was the kind of focus of the conversation. But I don't know what that was and I don't need to know. But they were able to have quite a challenging conversation with me. I was able to have quite a challenging conversation with them to really help them look in the eye where they were going to go with whatever it was.
And I just think... I have a real issue in organisations, as you know, because I've said it to you before, about once something's been said, it can't be unsaid. Yes. And the most lovely and wonderful and caring and compassionate you are, the more likely a colleague is to tell you something. at which point they will go, I wish I hadn't told you that.
Yes. Yeah. And it looks a little bit like, and maybe this is a bad analogy, that friend of mine, who's an accountant, said, always said that accountants were the worst people at office parties because they always drink the most apparently. That's completely anecdotal by the way. I'm not saying anything. But what I mean is we make decisions sometimes when we do things at office parties that maybe we don't ever want to be remembered, but we've done them and they can't not be remembered.
And they taint everything yet no one will ever talk about it. And it's a bit like that sometimes. I don't know why I said accountant, why you could scratch that up. You forget the idea though. I'm an accountant, insert any other word. Yes, insert any other word. Forget that. It just my dribble of a brain working. But I think it's true, you know, actually the things that we do, we can't undo and the things that we say, we can't unsay.
And that doesn't mean it's not good to say things and not good to share stuff, but it's thinking about whether you want that to define you or not. Yes. And it's about... If you're in a conversation which has an escalating level of kindness. Yes. You might slip into disclosing something, which had you taken time out and gone away and thought about it, you would have chosen not to disclose. Yeah. So as a coach, do you have a responsibility to make sure someone is aware of where they're going?
Yes, I think so. And that's why I will name something when I see it and say, we can choose whether to go there or not. Because I can already see. I can already see that happening. And I've seen that, you know, with someone is clearly you've moved from coach to best friend and know that you've done nothing different as a coach because you're the first person to have a genuine conversation.
And because it, because the way it makes you feel when someone is completely focused on you, because you're the most important person in the room is the thinker that can do things during dolphins and stuff that makes you feel very, very special and cradled. And actually that can mean that all that stuff that you would normally put up to protect bits of your life or things you're going to talk about can go down, I think sometimes. And that gets us nicely into ethics, doesn't it, Nathan?
Because I can remember being told by a number of men, you you understand me better than my wife. And I want to go, I don't actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've just experienced a deep quality of listening. Yeah. But I haven't taken it into myself and I'm giving you back my me. So so. Yes, you have just experienced a conversation where you have felt extremely heard and thank you for the feedback and where you've got new insights into your own stuff.
But stop turning me into into a wife, a future wife, you know? Yeah, yeah. But that's about boundaries again, isn't it? something I want to say here, I know if it's appropriate. What I want to say here and something that I've learned actually, so this is about me, someone had to say, guess, is actually, if you've been listened to like that, do you listen to your wife like that? Because she probably would benefit from that. And that could change everything for you.
Including your physical relationship, potentially. Yeah. Yeah. I just think that's Yeah, that's something that's really jumped out at me in terms of the way we listen to people and the way we've, if you've experienced great coaching in terms of being listened to like that, do you listen to the people that you are closest to you and you care about most in that way? Not as a coach, but as just in using the skills in terms of actually noticing and listening to what they're actually saying.
Yeah. Yeah. So what do you know now about triage that you didn't know when we started, Nathan? This is a slightly bigger topic, obviously, but that's fine. We like that. I think it's really exciting that there's a space for that actually.
And what I've learned is that, yet again, it's about delivering a safe place where people can use that space to sort their thinking out about what they need to do, which comes back to that whole coaching principle that I believe someone mentioned this once, that people are together enough to sort their own stuff out unless they're not. And actually holding that true, and helping them journey through to work out what they need.
Yeah. Because when people are very low in personal power, yeah, we need to make sure that they retain what they've got and that we don't take away the last bit by trying to be too helpful. Yes. And sometimes suggesting a course of action is the last thing they need because I've worked with quite a few individuals where it's been strongly suggested that they need X, Y and Z. And when you get the X, Y and Z is not the issue. Yeah. at all, but they have no agency and no influence over that.
So they've had to accept that because they have, if it's in a commercial setting, fear of losing their job or fear of not being seen to be playing ball when actually they just have no agency. yeah. And then you go for the thing. Yeah. That was recommended. And it fails because it fails and you're not fully engaged because it wasn't the right thing. And then, and then your reputation is, and we offer them this and they wouldn't take it.
Yes, which gets back into your nasty box ticking exercises, which are not good at all. And also I really firmly believe as well that if someone chooses to do something, Even if that thing doesn't solve the problem, the fact they've chosen to do it means they're engaged with it. I they've made the choice to be there. And then it comes back to the other principle. Any movement is movement.
the fact they've started moving, I keep getting this picture of a, boulder and you're just kicking that last little stone out from underneath it and it's starting to roll. And that's all that might happen in that coaching conversation and the bow rolled a bowling down the hill, which will be the big event. there's nothing to do with you because you've kind of helped move the small stone that's holding it still. As a coach, is. Yeah. So it's all about agency, isn't it?
Yeah. One of the things I really like about the mental health aware stuff for coaches that Anne Arch is doing and others are also doing it is that if you do the mental health first aid training in the mental health aware training, you're even more equipped to know what's available as triage. But you're not being a therapist, you're simply doing triage with a bit of a bigger range.
So I think I would recommend if anyone's listening and is thinking of doing triage, that is an absolute gold mine of... something that will resource you to more confidently hold stuff as you do triage. But it's very cost effective. it means that when, well, it means that if the person only needed one session, you can have done the coaching in a single session anyway. But it also means that they can take control of their own.
life and how much they choose to disclose or not disclose to the organization. I think that's, that's totally correct. And actually interesting. I took on something that you said around that I did as someone's actually in therapy and they've got then have a coaching intervention and having that conversation with them saying, well, you know, we you've got, know, where to take that stuff if it's inappropriate.
And that was really helpful because that person actually turned around at the end of the first coaching and said, coaching isn't what I need right now. I need to spend more time in therapy. And I have no idea why that's true, but I know that the space that was created meant that that was okay to them to say that. they had no guilt and no, cause I think one of the things if you sign up to six sessions, you disappear off to session one and the coach as a coach, all geared up to do six sessions.
There can be a bit of a breakdown in terms of expectation and someone that's already potentially a bit broken because of other stuff that's going on is them feeling entitled to someone that they don't really want or need anymore. And you've just layered a whole node of extra stuff they've got to deal with on. So instead of being part of the solution, you become part of the problem.
That's why doing a bit of coaching is better than a chemistry session, because you can actually find that out earlier, I think. That's another call, isn't it? Absolutely, but true. It's interesting, isn't it? Because you've described a situation where somebody decided to go to to therapy and not coaching, but there are equally times I can think of many times where I've said in the middle of something when somebody said something. is that a coaching thing or a therapy thing?
And they go, that's a therapy thing. I'll take that to my next session. Great. Or they go, actually it's a therapy thing, but I'd like to explore it in coaching and see what happens. Yeah. And then they get a forward movement in another aspect of it. Yeah. So I think being flexible and really co-creating, but within that, we need to know what the potential for co-creation is. Yeah. And the boundaries are where we're prepared to operate.
And I think that what we want to say at the end of this podcast, is that triage is a great thing that you can co-create with somebody. Absolutely. And it's a great service as well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Nathan Whitbread, thank you for coming. And I do love your microphone. Just have to say that to all our listeners. I have microphone envy here, everybody. So thank you, Nathan. I'm Claire Pedrick. I've been talking to Nathan about triage.
And I think probably we'll think about doing some kind of coaching lab around this. So watch this space. Enjoy your week, everybody. Bye-bye. Bye. See you. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time.
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