You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello and welcome to this week's episode where we're going to be talking about coaching from the inside.
So lots of coaches trying to be external coaches and to offer coaching into organisations, but actually changing society and changing the world, if that's what we really want to do, is also about bringing in coaching from the inside as well as coaching from the outside. And Val Hastings. has written a new book called Coaching from the Inside, the Guiding Principles of Internal Coaching. And you'll have heard Val as a guest before, my longtime friend and ally. Welcome Val. Hey, thank you, Claire.
It's good to be back with you again. Definitely we're allies, yeah. It's always good to talk. Yes, yes it is. So why did you write it? okay. So why did I write it? well, we've been training coaches years, decades. And, what I've noticed recently is that in the early years, almost everyone we trained wanted to be an external coach, have their own business. What I've noticed in the last couple of years is almost everyone we're training. Once instead to use this internally or has been sent.
to be trained to then come back to their organization. I thought to myself, that's kind of an interesting trend. And so as I dug a little deeper, one of the things I discovered is that our training had this huge bias toward external coach training. Yeah. And we kind of sort of maybe offered a little bit to internal coaches. And I thought that I got to do something about that. And so that led to you and I having a conversation and about writing a book.
And then I had the privilege of interviewing 21 internal coaches globally. And part of the rationale behind the book, Claire, is that I did not want this to be a theoretical book. but I wanted to be a practitioner as you have very practical from the people, you know, in the trenches actually doing this. Here's what you need to know as an internal coach. And that's amazing.
Cause that's a lot of the feedback I get about simplifying coaching is that people are really searching for the practical 101. I love that I know some of them. You do. That's right. You do. Yes. That's always great, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a thrill to meet people from around the world. Yeah. Just the different perspectives and cultures. So what was the big learning for you? Wow, man, there were several big learnings. I think that's why I called them guiding principles.
But, you know, one of the learnings was actually more of a reinforcement that while we share competencies, external and internal coaches, that there are some very unique differences that are not being addressed adequately. in training. what I would call those principles that we need to address. And that just reinforced the need to make sure that we're addressing them adequately, providing resources on them. For example, just the whole hat switching, which came out loud and clear.
You're an internal coach, you're switching hats. You always get a little dizzy. As an external coach, you do a bit of that. You've got to be skilled at that. Yeah, and it's interesting, isn't it? Because that's one of our principles, change hats with consent. And I think there's such a complexity, isn't there? Because it's what hat are you wearing? And what hats are in your gift? But there's also what hats does your colleague think you're wearing right now?
And what are they trying to get you to wear? And what they absolutely not want you to wear? All of that is mixed in there. masterful internal coaches on a fly. You're in the moment almost seamlessly transition with that. Yeah. that really connects to the podcast two weeks ago about the role question that we ask at the beginning of a session, which is how are we going to do this? And for me, anyone coaching inside an organization needs to ask that.
Well, I think everybody needs to ask it when they're at the beginning of conversation, but I think if you're internally coaching, it's absolutely fundamental, isn't it? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And Claire add to the mix that if you're a full-time internal coach, you're very, very fortunate. There's a growing number of full-time coaches. Most internal coaches also have other responsibilities and roles. And so, yeah. So am I your supervisor, your peer? What's the role?
Yeah. Yeah. They have other jobs, don't they? As well as other hats. They do. They do. And so to your point, absolutely critical. Let's get clear at the beginning. It's, you know, it's part of that setting, the container that you talk about. It's the clearer we are at the beginning on that, the more effective the coaching conversation is. Yeah. So. What's your hope for coaching in 10 years time?
Well, when you mentioned as part of the introduction about changing the world and having an impact, that's my whole motivation for being in this. And especially given the state of affairs currently in the world, it's like, we need a reset. We need a different conversation. And I believe that coaching brings that and offers that. And one of the things that I discovered was that very few internal coaches coach the system. We need to do that.
We need to recognize that that's part, that is one of several clients that we serve or that we might serve as an internal coach. Can I share the thing that came straight into my mind as you said that? Yes, absolutely. Is how many people are aware of leading in the system, managing in the system, working in the system, if that's what your experience was of the internal coaches that you interviewed? Yes. So those I interviewed very, very aware. Very aware, but not doing it.
Well, a fair number of them are. Okay. Yeah. A fair number are most that I interviewed want to coach the system. May not have been invited or into the room. That's the other piece. Their original contract as an internal coach may not have addressed that that's the fourth or fifth client in the And so it all goes back to that initial contracting. When you contract with an organization, include the system to larger organization. Desperately needed. Yeah. That's about, about.
articulating the connected nature of work, isn't it? Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. one of the coaches I interviewed, from Alberta, Canada said that he views internal coaching, like you're coaching an octopus and far too many of us are only coaching the tentacles and we've got to coach the whole, the body of it as well. That is such a good image. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we've been doing tentacle coaching. Yeah, because it's coaching. What's in your gift in the coaching?
What's the commission in the coaching and what's in the gift of the person that you're working with? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So those 20, 21 people, I learned tremendous amount that we're now using in our training program we're sharing with people. My hope in 10 years is that the average coach training program is not only training external coaches, also internal coaches.
We spend probably a third of our transforming conversations looking at using it in organizations, even when the delegates might want to be using it as externals. Because I think looking at it from different sides is really important. Yeah. I would agree, because we're often invited by a group to come in and to train, as you said, either externally or internally, still deliver both. Valuable. Yeah. I'm just thinking about the ones I've been running this week.
Because I think what I've noticed this week, I I noticed it a lot, but I think I've noticed it particularly this week because I ran the same session in two different organizations on the same day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. And that gives you a certain lens, doesn't it? So look at something through. And I think the thing that I noticed most of all was how, when I'd said at the beginning, we're going to learn a bit about pure coaching for the first half of the program.
And then we're going to say, actually in your organization, it probably isn't going to look like this, but we need to have done the, other bit first. Yeah. And so much pushback. This won't work in my organization. I don't like it. It's too, somebody said it's too harsh. In our organisation, we have cosy conversations and what you're describing here is too harsh. Suddenly, midway, they go, it's not harsh at all. It's just, it's just not the, what did they say?
It's not the warm and fluffy that we like to do. You're actually having a conversation that gets to the heart of the matter much more quickly. And, and when you suddenly get to, using it as one leadership style compared to other leadership styles, people go, now I get it. Yeah, that's interesting, the pushback you get initially. Yeah, I was talking to a colleague this morning and saying, you know, we really need to be very robust at saying, wait till week five.
Yeah, I think as the trainer or the presenter, you've got to be convinced that the aha is coming. Yeah, and we know it will. Yeah. Yeah. But I think really getting a sense of where this fits. mean, people come because they get it and they want to come. But when you're commissioned into an organization, people also come because they've been asked or told to come, don't they? So that's a different space. Very different, yeah.
What's the question you wish you'd asked in your research and you didn't? I wish I would have asked more about hat switching. And for this reason, I'm an external coach. So I mean, I switch hats, but I wish I dug deeper into how does a coach develop? Like how did you develop that other than just jumping in the deep end of the pool? If we were to create a course on hat switching for eight hours, what would that look like? Just because that just shows up time and time again.
I wish I'd asked more about that. That piece. Yeah, that maybe that's self-serving, Claire. I don't know, but I'd like to know more from your teaching on this. Although maybe what I need to do is bring in a panel and let them talk about it. We did some podcasts about a year ago with the Africa executive coaching convention. And I went to their conference, which was really extraordinary.
One of the things that I learned was there was some people there speaking from a telecoms company in East Africa, and they were describing what coaching looked like in their organization. And that was absolutely fascinating. Sadly, it's not a shareable link. because it was a paid for conference.
But it was really extraordinary to hear what people were saying about how they were using it how they were using it from the leadership right the way down and how it was showing up right across the organization. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning leadership, especially those at the higher level. One of the things that came up and it was this principle of demonstrate your worth.
Common mistake is You've got a department or division that's sold on coaching or a North American division, but not the whole global division. Really important to continually be a broken record on what coaching is, what's the value of coaching, making sure that people all the way at the top of leadership have access to that information and even experience that. And that just, it kind of goes to a ceiling and stops. And that has a direct impact on coaching the system.
And I think that the senior leadership have courage to tell others that they have a coach. Yes. Yeah. One of the groups, cohorts I'm working with now, we're doing internal coaching and I asked for a volunteer for me to coach in class, class number one. I was so pleased the top leader in the room said, I will. That just set the whole tone and he was incredibly vulnerable. And it really just set the whole, we were set now for the next several days.
We had that when we were running several cohorts in the same organization and it was the most senior person in the room who volunteered on the first day. And then he said, can I come back on cohort two? And I went, no, in cohort one, you're an equal with the delegates because it was new to all of you and now you're ahead of them. So it won't be the same. So you can come and say hello, but that's not the same as being an equal participant. Yeah, good call.
But I mean, one of the things that I really encourage organizations to do is to bring a mixed cohort training so that you've got junior and senior people. Because even the working together and the practice starts to embed a coaching culture and also break down some of the barriers that are around, isn't it? It does, yeah, it absolutely does. And then, you when you pair them up and they do coaching, mean, it just goes even further.
wow, we can have these kinds of conversations outside of this class. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I had that show up yesterday. And it's funny, because it's the thing about you can't make meaning for someone else. They can only make meaning for themselves. And somebody suddenly went, that was really useful. So, yeah, we could do that work. So this cohort I'm working with now, there is a diehard fixer. He's got a solution for everything.
And he said the other day, I'm convinced that my approach isn't working. I just can't figure out how to not do it. Duct tape. Yeah, that might be necessary. Yeah, yeah. Have you read Michael Bungay Steiner's book, The Advice Track? No, I've heard about it though. I'll put it on my list. la la. Okay. So he talks about the advice monster. And it's so beautifully and simply written.
It's a great book for people who have an advice monster because it really helps you to see what the impact of that is. Cause I think, I thought I explain it. quite well. And then I read Michael Bungie Stainer's book and thought, no, this is much better. Okay, maybe I'll buy him a copy and send him one too. Yeah, truly, truly. Okay. It's a really excellent short book. Yeah, that helps you get it. Sounds good Claire. Sounds good. Yeah, so what else did you learn?
I learned that internal coaches live with their mess. So as an external coach, come in and then I go. Yeah. I see what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. They're living with it every day. You know, they're well, and the positive side to that is, is they see things in the moment. They see the successes, the, the huge insights as well as the struggles, but they're living in that. Yeah, I have to confess, I like not living in the mess and just going home.
Yeah, because there's something about in the site, I often say to people, know, you can't be coached too much because it's too hard. But even though it's a very simple process that actually to you should be able to embed and apply what you've learned in the last session before you think about having the next one, shouldn't you? Otherwise, it's just one whole series of. It is, yeah. Transformational moments. And I think you can have too much transformation.
Yeah. But there's also something, isn't there, I think, about being really clear. When am I the coach? And when am I someone else and not being tuned up to the coach bit all the time? Yeah. And that showed up a lot that coaches were talking about. their need for a coach, their need to not be on as they're walking the halls of the organization, how hard that is and how few actually are taking that good care of themselves. So that's a hazard to really watch for as an internal coach.
The other piece is, you've got skin in the game. You've got to invest. mean, the outcome can directly affect you. That adds a whole other layer of pressure and responsibility. And also depending on where you are in the organisational structure, you might know things that the person you're coaching doesn't know. That came up a lot too about conflicts of interest and coaching when you know something and the need to almost daily re-look at the contracts that you have, the agreements.
Can I still coach here while I'm coaching here? And even if I don't coach, if I just have a conversation with their supervisor or someone in authority, they might wonder what's Val talking to them? Is he talking with them about me? So it's, there's this perception. Yeah. And I can remember. think it talks about the value of supervision and the essential nature of supervision for people who are coaching internally.
More than one or two people, which is slightly different from a coaching style of management where the things that you're coaching on are probably a bit more pragmatic. But if you're going into deeper stuff over longer conversations, I can remember somebody I was supervising who was an internal coach. And one day she came to the session, I said, how would you like to use today? And she said, I want to step back and have a look at the people that I'm working with.
So she got a flip chart and she drew on the flip chart the different people she was working with. And she stood back and she said, what do you notice? And I said, I wonder what would happen if the light went on and they all knew that you were coaching each of them. And the other thing that we noticed together on that day was this was a coach who regularly got feedback after saying almost nothing.
The feedback that she regularly got after saying almost nothing was the advice she gave me was amazing. So one of the issues is what happens if person one says to person two, so and so told me this and they go so and so didn't tell me that. So one of the things I picked up a long time ago around working with internal coaches about ethics. was talk to people you're coaching about where they will or won't say that you are their coach. So the confidentiality goes both ways, I think.
And it's almost easier to be seen to be the coach of everyone than it is to be the scene to be, well, who is she working with and who is she not working with and what does she know? And what do you do with that? Yeah, yeah, all that dynamic. It's, you have soap operas in the UK. It's almost soap opera like, you know, yeah. Yeah. That, that is a constant issue for internal coaches.
Now, one of the other things was a couple of coaches mentioned that, they were hired to be agents of change as a coach and they, they had to in the moment. redirect the hiring organization. I'm not a agent of change. I'm an agent of awareness as a coach. you know, those three individuals said that was really vital that they highlighted that because they were being brought in to implement change. I would not have thought of that. Wow. Yeah. 21 brilliant coaches. What an amazing journey.
Absolutely. So people could get your book Across the World. Across the world. Yeah. Absolutely. Coaching from the Inside the Guiding Principles of Internal Coaching by Val Hastings. Yes. You bet. And what's your hope? when someone reads it. Well, I mean, my hope is that there'll be a gem in there. There'll be something that just sparks them. it's like your book. I I read your book cover to cover. Brilliant.
And then you go back and like, ooh, there's one piece and that'll just serve you for several weeks. Then you go back later on. now I need that piece. My hope is there'll be some gems there that people will resonate with and go, that's what I need now. Yeah. And it's about not being overwhelmed, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Don't read the book and want to implement everything all at once, all 11. I say that about mine. Just one thing, otherwise you're going to drive everyone else completely bananas.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think for an organization or system that's looking to create an internal coaching program, this would be a great, just starter or reference. These are some of the things we need to be aware of and questions we need to be asking. Fantastic. Yeah. Well, thank you, Val. Thank you, Claire, as always. It's fun. Yeah, for another fun conversation. And I'm sure we'll have you back another time. Absolutely. Thank you very much.
Appreciate it. So I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been in conversation with Val Hastings. Bye bye, everyone. Bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time. You've been listening to The Coaching In, 3D Coaching's virtual pub.
For more information, check out 3dcoaching.com.