Welcome. I'm Claire Pedrick. And today I'm talking with four coaches, Mark Chappell, Fiona Craig Caroline Drummond and Catherine Kramer, who've all been asking questions about how you answer. I don't know questions when you're right. Sizing the work at the beginning of every coaching conversation, especially around that role. Question in Stokers, how should we do this? So we said come to the Coaching Inn and let's talk. So welcome to all of you. It's lovely to have you here in our virtual pub.
Um Thank you, Claire. So let's hear a nugget about each of you and where you are on your coaching journey. P Why don't you go first? Oh, ok. Um Thanks Claire. Um I'm P Craig. I've been a coach for about a year and a half. Um But most of my career has been spent as a marketing strategist. Um I think what that has given me is a sense of being on the outside observing the big picture about what's fully going on here. So, whilst in many respects, it's a completely different career.
Um There are a couple of things that I've brought into coaching. Um, that sort of slight sense of detachment being one of them. Um And, um, yeah, I was so glad that you asked this question on a webinar that we were on because it's something I really struggled with when I was a, a new coach. So I'm really looking forward to getting some answers today or exploring it deeper. Well, true. Maybe I have some of my own. Yeah, I'm sure you do. So welcome. P Catherine. Hi, Claire.
Um, and thank you very much for inviting me to this podcast. I um I met you for, for everyone um on the Henley Masterclass in January of this year and I was blown away by your presentation. Um and since have bought your, your book and um yeah, so really, really good. So I have been a coach like f for about a year and a half and prior to that, I was a management consultant and financial project manager. So I spent around 25 years in, in corporate roles.
Um I had a bit of a career change and um trained with Henley business school and have now just launched my business as a coach and I am loving it really, really enjoying um coaching people and yeah, very interested to see what the next hour will unfold. Yes, me too. Thank you, Catherine and thank you for the feedback uh and do put a review on Amazon if you like the book. Ok, I will. Thank you Caroline. Hello, welcome. Thank you. Hi. Phil, I'm a newly qualified coach.
Um I've come from 25 years in marketing, scrutinizing brands, searching and exploring how I unlock their potential. And so now my focus is shift to unlocking potential in people. Um I guess I'm working for large Corporates like Unilever and Heinz to some extent, I, I've walked in the shoes of some of these business leaders and felt the pressure to drive business performance and inspire teams. Um But now the world's tougher than ever post COVID uh and more ambiguity and more challenge.
Um So I think more than ever, leaders and managers need coaching and, you know, just the time and space to get away from the fast pace of cognitive overload of everything that's going around uh around them. Uh just to have that time to, to think things through. Yeah. Yeah. Well, welcome to the Coaching Inn where we'll take a bit of a less pressurized view of the world. I hope and learn some stuff together. So, Mark, welcome, tell us a bit about your coaching journey.
And what made you send me that email that started all this off? Ok. Um So I have been coaching since 2011. Uh I did my first coach training, however, I would say a good 90% of that time of coaching was pretty poor on my part. Um I thought I was a good coach and then I read your book when it came out and I read it and I realized, oh, Crikey, I'm way off the mark here. So I decided to sort of burn up everything that I thought I knew about coaching.
I um enrolled on your transforming conversations course. And I'm kind of finding a new love for coaching and exploring it from a completely new um perspective. So a lot of unlearning for me in the last two years. And you're very welcome to this bit of your journey. So you sent me an email. I did. I um the, the question of the role question. It is interesting. Um Most of the time people will say, actually, I don't know.
And then if I hold the silence, they all say, but maybe this or maybe this, um I had a gentleman I've been working with um interestingly who had slight anger issues and when I said, oh, what, you know, how do you think is the best way we approach this together? He got very, very angry and he said that's why I'm paying you this money for. And it was a bit of a, what I call a squeaky bum moment for me.
And I thought, hm, I need to, I need to bring this to someone who has a bit of experience and maybe a different perspective on how to handle those kind of, I don't knows when they're maybe more tricky than uh uh the normal ones we may receive as a coach. It's such a great question.
So for the benefit of listeners who are new to the, to the right sizing concept, uh we've come up in the simplifying coaching, but with, with a set of questions that begin a coaching conversation, what would you like to think about in the time we have? Which bit of that would you like to think about? What would you like to be different by the end of this conversation? How are you going to know? You've got it? How are we going to do this and where should we start?
So you're describing, aren't you mark the, how are we going to do this? And you're describing? Well, I'm paying you to know how we're going to do this. Yes, that's it. So, on that one, I wonder whether it's useful, first of all to just say it doesn't matter if nobody knows anything. It doesn't matter if people come to coaching and they say, I don't know to every single question because what you then know is, you know, that we don't know what we're doing.
And this is a great thing and actually often in coaching, if you don't make the work the right size, what happens is you don't know what you're doing anyway. It's just that you don't know, you don't know if you get, I don't know to those Stokers questions at the beginning. We're absolutely clear. We're in totally uncharted territory here and we're gonna work it out on the way.
And I think the biggest art for the coach is to be not bothered and not make them come up with an answer and to move on really quite quickly and say, well, that's ok and then ask and then keep the right sizing because if at the end of the right sizing, we're clear we're in uncharted territory. Great. And the other important technical thing is I think that in that bit and we'll talk about the rest of the, I don't know, together as we go on, I think in that bit, how are we going to do this?
It's more important to ask the question than it is to have an answer because in asking the question, we're saying because we don't have to do it my way because in most conversations and it's lovely.
We've got such a breadth of experience here, the strategist, the management consultant, the marketing person, in most conversations at work, the person who's perceived to have more power, knows how to do, how to do it, you know how to have a conversation with customers, you know, how to have this kind of conversation or that conversation and, and as much as it's in partnership, you're kind of leading and suddenly here in coaching, we're going to do something in a completely different way.
So it's setting the scene for all the things that are to come like saying is this useful? If I've said at the beginning, how are we going to do this and you say, I don't know. And then in two minutes, I say, is this useful? You can say no, because we set the scene that we didn't have to do it my way. What are other people's thoughts or experiences or stories or insights? Indeed about that? I think for me, I found the r question the most terrifying because people do say, I don't know.
Um But what I'm experiencing is that if I don't ask that question quite early on, I kind of get caught out and I can get caught up by asking people what they do want to talk about in a long download of everything they want to say. And I haven't got their permission yet because we haven't talked about roles to be able to interrupt and therefore I'm not leaving enough time to generate insight and learning.
So I found that even though it was a question that made me feel uncomfortable because I knew the answer was possibly gonna be, I don't know that the most useful thing for me and for the client is to ask it upfront. Um So I've had to face my fears, um, somewhat, um, on that one, I'm glad you said that Caroline because, um, and also Mark described this as a squeaky bum moment which I, I totally, I totally hear, hear.
I think I started obediently asking the question because, you know, because it's on the checklist getting a load of, well, I don't know, I didn't get that kind of answer that you got Mark, which was, you know, a kind of, and you should do, but I certainly felt like I should, you know, I, I felt like I was asking a silly question when I was getting all these, I don't knows. Um, and then I stopped asking it for th for that reason.
Um, and then, and that, which obviously says more about me as a coach than it does about any of my coaches. Um But I gradually started putting it back in when I realized that my, the coaches with whom I was starting to build a relationship. So when we get to 2nd, 3rd, 4th uh coaching sessions within a, within a relationship, I found it a lot easier to then bring either that question or something similar to that question back in because we had some kind of context to work on between us.
So they might say something like, um, oh, you know, we talked about that, uh model or, or we did that technique or, um, actually, could you just listen this week or can you really turn the heat up on me because they had some sort of frame of reference in which to put that. Um And then I, I think just people being able to answer that question or at least give me some information on that more confidently made me kind of think, oh, there is a lot of value in this. I should, I should ask it anyway.
Even if I do get the, I don't know. So, your point about it's more important to ask the question than to have it answered, I think is a really good one. And I think it's something that just occurred to me when you said that earlier on was, um, even if they don't know, first up, the fact that you've asked the question means that at some point during the session, they may say, oh, I've just realized how we can do it. Could you do it like this, for example.
So it kind of sets the expectation that they can specify at any point if they want to. Whereas if you don't ask the question, then, then that whole, that whole idea potentially doesn't exist to them. Yeah. Yeah. And I will agree with you there. I, um, in fact, when I was at Henley, I, and in my first months of coaching clients, I had my Stokers stuck up on my wall and I followed it religiously and, uh, I'm here on a post it note, I love it. I love it.
And, um, and I thought, you know, all these questions, but they don't want me to be asking them all, all these questions. I, I should know, I should know my role as a coach and, and I did ask the question and often it was always the same. Yes, I'd like you to ask me the questions and blah, blah, blah. And then I thought, why am I asking this? And then with one of my regular clients, I think one day I asked her, you know, what would you like for me today?
And she said, well, I just want you to listen, I just want to talk and she just talked and for, for me that was in a way that, um, the, the, the epiphany, the, the, the, the light bulb moment it was, oh my gosh, this is actually what?
Because I would have just jumped in with questions and, you know, asked her things when she didn't actually want me to and it was fantastic that I had actually asked her and I thought brilliant, you know, thank you Stokers because if I hadn't done so the session would not have been a value to her. And, and then I think it, it brings into question the, who the whole, um, the whole question of value, what is the value to the coach?
And if we ask these questions that they are question, especially, we are going to be more in partnership with the coach and we are going to be able to proceed in the way that they want. And hopefully the outcome of the session will be um to their liking and of value to them. And it is so interesting, Catherine that when you described it, you described it as slightly differently from what everybody else said, cos you said to her, how are we going to do this today?
And when Caroline was talking about your experience, I wrote down on my Mastercard which will go in the, my pencil copy of the second edition of the book. We need to change the question it needs to be. How are we going to do this today? Because that's much easier to ask. Would that be less infuriating to your squeaky bum man? Mark? I, I wouldn't go that far. Uh Possibly, um I just to say what, what Catherine was saying, I've had that experience now.
I sometimes say how, how should we do this today? Some one that's just come naturally and in the last year, especially the number of people who've just said, look, can we just have a coffee and actually stuff comes up when we do it? But I probably out of my own performance, anxiety sometimes want to come in and be impressive and do lots of stuff that looks cool and you, you feel that um demonstrates your value of their investment.
But actually, as Catherine is saying, it's really what is of value to them, what is service to them as opposed to what makes us feel less anxious as a coach for ourselves. I think it is interesting that, um it seems to be sort of a journey that we go through as an inexperienced coach.
It's, it's a sort of internal wrestling with ourselves about what it means if we ask that question and either asking that question and, and sort of getting a brick wall answer and, and those kinds of moments when you're inexperienced as a coach can be quite undermining and, and the sense that we need to deliver value, especially when we've all got professional backgrounds where we very much had to deliver value and that's been completely turned on its head.
So the idea of the idea of sort of letting go of having to control that amount of value is, is quite an important one. But I, I love, you know what you were saying, Claire about the words we use because I think it was the way I wrote it down in the first place. I had it as our role and I remember a number of times asking something like, you know, what is my role in this or, or whatever? And, and that's when you get, well, you're the coach, aren't you?
That's when you get, well, uh duh kind of question. Um And it took me a long time to realize that they are. The role is just a way of remembering that idea of a question. You don't actually say role necessarily to either. How are we gonna do? This is a, is an idea that I used to use a lot as a strategist, which is not only what are we going to do, what are we going to do in this meeting, for example. But also how are we gonna do it? How are we gonna make the decision?
How are we going to evaluate whether we've reached the right outcome and, and so on. So that kind of for me, R has become an H which, which grammatically makes no sense. But it's more about how do we do this. So your point about how do we do this today? Um It feels, it feels like so much more of a comfortable question than what's my role. I just sort of, yeah, I learned what's my role from, from? I don't know where I picked that up and I used to say what's my role?
And then I didn't like it anymore. I'm, I'm so glad you did that because I, I looked, you know, I reflected and I thought, I feel like such an idiot for asking it like that when actually that's not really, that's only a little tiny part of the question that how do we do? This is a much bigger question, isn't it? I think another way that we, you know, that we were taught or that the, how I used to say it was, what, what would you like for me as your coach today?
Um And that, and that's another way of putting it. And I think it's, um, you know, generally I found that coaches would come back with the same response. I'd like you to ask me me questions. I'd like you to do this. And, um, yeah, I, I think, I think from the moment that I was able to, um, relax more into coaching, it's, it's become so much easier for me and I think, and feel, um, your resume here, you know, being a fairly new coach.
But at the very beginning I was so ruled by the methodologies and I literally would sit there and I would follow gro to the T and if I erred from grow, I would start freaking out. Oh my gosh, it's not going the way that I want it to and to actually relinquish con control was really hard for me. And I think that also stems from my, my corporate life as a project manager.
You know, I, I worked my G charts and I like to have control and when you go into a coaching session and suddenly there are the, I don't knows and there are the long silences. It's really perturbing at the beginning. It's really, really scary. And I it took me, it took me a while to ease myself into it and to, and to be happy with the unknown and not having control and going with the coaches agenda. And it's obviously a massive voyage of discovery for me.
And um, but I have learned now to, to step back from all the methodologies and the models and just use them as a tool kit. Um but be a lot more relaxed with the unknown cos it's two people, two human beings having a conversation about one of us. And that's what makes it a bit odd because most dialogue is two people both having a kind of equal share in the conversation. Whereas the focus is always on the thinker or as you describe that the coachy.
But I think the more normal we can be the more productive the conversation. And I, you know, in the early stages, I think any coach who's trained with any coaching training organization has that story, Catherine, where you're thinking, I've got to get it right. I've got to do this, I've gotta do this. Then what do I do next? Then what do I do? You know? And that's, and that's, that's really stressful.
And I think the difference between coaches in their first year or two and coaches who've got significantly more experience is that you get less bothered about the not knowing and then you can inhabit it in a much easier way and there. And therefore when somebody says, I don't know, you look, feel sound genuinely are not bothered.
Whereas at the beginning, when I say to, you don't be bothered about that, you're going classis don't be bothered about this in a really bothered way and you're doing that in your head. So it doesn't look or sound like that to the person you're working with. But inside you're going, Claire said, don't be bothered, but I feel bothered. Should I be both bothered? So it all gets a bit busy. So I am very intrigued by what you've said, Claire around. It's ok for them to say.
I don't know because as a human being, I, I kind of want to give them a second opportunity to answer the question. II, I want to be able to say so if you did take a minute or two to, to delve a bit deeper, what would you think? You? So what holds you back from asking again in a different form of words, Claire? That is such a good question. I think it's partly about whether you're making an exploration or an obligation.
And I think sometimes the person we're working with feels as though we're making them come up with something and I think we've just got to take a call and sometimes we'll get it right and sometimes we'll get it wrong as to whether this is a, just leave it and move on and we can come back to it later in a different way or whether it's an actually, we really need to do, need to, to know this and it, and it comes up, I think in those other right sizing questions.
So you'll say to somebody, what would you like to be different by the end of this conversation? I heard, I heard one yesterday when I was listening to recording and the, and the thinker said, I have no idea and the temptation then is to do an inquisition, which is to say so if you did know what you'd like to be different by the end of this conversation, what would you be thinking? But for me, it's about where it is in the right sizing. Thank you for the question because I'm getting there now.
Uh It's about where it is in the right sizing. So for example, what would you like to be different by the end of the conversation is, is demonstrating that this conversation is future focused and it's optimistic and we're going somewhere, but they might not know, but they'll for sure know how they'll know it's moved forward. So I, I am more dogmatic about sitting with the, how will, you know, this has moved things forward for you?
Question, then I am with what would you like to be different by the end of this conversation question? And I think, although I reserve the right to change my mind, I think I'm learning that if you only remember, how would you know, you'll still have a cracking conversation even if you've forgotten what the outcome was or you didn't ask it or they didn't say or it changed.
Because I uh my current wondering is whether the one of those questions that really really matters is how are you going to know we've moved this forward? Because that's often where the transformation is. People go. Oh, no. How will you know? Oh No, I know. Ok, let's check in later and you can check in with that mood and get a really good response because you can hear it in the tone of what they say. Thank you. Well, thank you.
Because every single, every single thing I've ever written has come in conversation with people like you. What are other people thinking at this moment? I'm not thinking that I'd quite like to um, do a coaching session now and just crack on and try it. But I did, I did use it today, you know, it, it's probably the question that crops up is most likely to drop out and maybe to your point, maybe it's because it is less important than some of the other questions.
Um, and sometimes I wonder whether I, I don't know, I think it depends on the nature of the coach. E so for example, I've got some that I know will sort of tell me what they want from me without me even asking. Or I've sort of, we've sort of built up a, a way of going about things. Well, I don't know. I don't know. Now I'm questioning myself. Do you check in every time or do you just trust that the, the report is there?
So, if they did want something different of you, they would, they would either tell you or let you know in some kind of discomfort that you'd pick up on. I don't know. I'm just questioning myself. What do you think? I check in every time except when I don't. And I'm thinking about one person in particular who I've coached for years and years and years and years.
And we've got a lovely way of working together where he downloads for 50 minutes and then asks me what I noticed and that's his preference. And he comes with his various notebooks in which he's done some kind of journaling and reflection before he arrives. And he's good to go in that first minute and he just wants to go. So we just do, what is his preference? Because everything is demonstrating, let's do what we did last time because it was really useful.
Generally, I ask some version of it sometimes lighter sometimes in more detail. But again, being really willing for people to say, I don't know, you know, I don't know. And, and, and then just to say that's ok, maybe we can check in in a bit and see how we're getting on. It feels to me like it's something quite important to ask if you're just starting out with a new client.
Um to, to really embed that everybody's clear on what coaching is and what coaching isn't because if they haven't done it before, um, it could be a real mismatch of expectations. Um, you know, in my old role doing marketing and marketing consultancy, it was about putting stuff in putting expertise, putting information in and obviously coaching is more about pulling out the great ideas, thinking that's within the client. Um So it's two different ends of the spectrum.
And if you don't have clarity on that at the beginning of a relationship, I, I find that you end up losing more time down the line because they, they keep coming back at me going. What would you do? What is your advice? What do you do when you were at Unilever? And it, it just feels better for me to have had that conversation up up front. My top tip is to have that upfront and tell them that this is a chat before we start the work.
Mm. Because if you start having that chat in the first coaching session, you've just told them that coaching is telling people stuff because you've just been telling them stuff. So I call that I in the book, it's called the Pres conversation. So I would be really direct with people and say, let's have a bit of a chat about what this is and this isn't. And then let's work out what we need to do today.
Nice and soft because otherwise in that first minute when they're making their, they're getting their impression of you, they're thinking, oh, this is my coach and she's telling me what we're doing and it will take quite a lot of untangling further down the line, which is often why they come back and say, well, what did you do in fact, I prefer to do it. Not even in the first conversation, I prefer to do it before that.
So that when we start the first conversation, we can really get on with the work work, it occurs to me that, um, a couple of times when I have asked that question, particularly on a certain platform that I coach through where you've got a lot of first time coaches, um, and say, how are we gonna do this work?
They often say, oh, well, um, I'd just really like to get your thoughts and, um, and some, some advice and tips and I guess what that does is give you a chance to say, well, you're not gonna get any, um, in a, not as, you know, in, in as many words to say, oh, well, actually we've got a slight mismatch here in terms of expectations of what this is going to be about.
Um, so I guess you've just made me realize that there is another, even though that's not kind of, it's not the question, it's not the answer you want. We have to let go of what we want, but it is a very useful indicator as to where they're coming in and what, what they're expecting and where they're, where you might not be on the same page. I just kind of reveal something. I don't take any notice when people say that.
Um, Claire, I'm, I'm really interested to know, um, your views on coaching across cultures. Um I've got thanks to, to Zoom. Um, I've got coaches all over the world. Um, and, um, it, it's interesting how cultural differences effect, um, how coaching conversations can go.
And I'm just interested to know your views on whether you, you change your techniques or you, you, you're very sensitive to how um different cultures will react or, or their expectations um, to a coaching conversation and, and primarily their, their views of coaching, how coaching is viewed in, in different countries and different cultures. Um So yeah, I'm interested, that's a simple and really complex question, Kathy, you know, on one level, everybody's different.
So whatever, wherever the person who shows up lives, whatever the color of their skin, whatever their country of origin, whatever their gender, whatever their sexuality, whatever their anything, everybody's different, which is why we need to work it out individually with everybody when you're working across cultures. I think there's something about people's attitude to hierarchy and power and who gives power to who.
But that can be to do with people's size, somebody very tall and somebody very short. It can be to do with people's where people were born, where they were educated, where they now live their family history, their society's attitude to this, that or the other. There's so much complexity there that I think we have to ask and I think we have to feel our way in um in the podcast that went out on the second of March. If anyone hasn't listened to it, do do that um about power and privilege.
Liz Price was saying that one of the things that's really useful is to ask is to talk about difference at the beginning of the conversation. So you're living in wherever in the world and I'm living here, let's talk about difference just before we begin to work together so that we can work out how we're going to manage that together. So get it out on the table and name it is a really collaborative partnership thing to do.
I, I train people all over the world and, and that's actually made me even more sit with the belief that everybody's different. Uh And you know, there are books written about coaching people from this culture or coaching people from that culture, but that's about coaching some people from that culture who might be like that, but other people from that culture might be like something else. So we need to ask them, I would say we need to talk about it.
So I guess if there's that sense that I'm conscious that there's some form of difference between us that will be a cue to, to say perhaps that question, let's talk about difference before we start. Although you wouldn't throw that in anyway, you wouldn't throw that in as a question. I haven't yet, but I'm going to because actually we don't know what the difference is and if I think that I'm like you and you think that I'm like you, that's not a great thing either.
Yeah, I mean, it al also um views of leadership and teamwork, um certain coun countries. Um for example, China, I've read some studies where um the results of the vi a survey indicated that um individuals were much happier making decisions as part of a team rather than individually. Um which is, which is, it was a fascinating paper and it, it, it kind of brings to mind when coaching teams. I, is that going to change the way that you coach? Awesome.
Yeah. Mark, what's your experience because you work in the health service, don't you? Well, I used to. Yes. So it is complex. It is complex. So the health service, you've got many people of different ranks, hierarchies and there's cultural differences and then there's so it say in the uh we have a large number of Indian nurses. There's also the caste system that is a sort of a white sort of male I didn't really understand.
So we used to have issues with very senior nurses being told what to do by people much lower in the uh organizational hierarchy because their family status was higher than that of the actual senior nurse. So there was all sorts of complex things. And if I'm honest, I'm a great believer in treating everyone as an individual. And yes, there may be cultural things, uh, that come up but I found them less.
So, um, but it is also how you show up in the room is how you're being in the room can also make a massive impact on that. Um, yeah, so it is a complex thing and I think if I come across a sense of someone's given the one thing I really dislike as a coach who really puts me off the song gives me loads of deference. I don't deserve. That's why I don't put any of my past. What things I've done on my website. Oh I don't have, you know, I don't like books on my bookshelf.
So I really want this to be human to human and anything that elevates me, I'm really, really conscious of because in the health service it matters because people don't speak up when something's wrong. And there was a case a few years ago of a lady dying because no one spoke up because of hierarchy and we call human factors, but it was all hierarchy. So it's a really important thing to me. It's how I feel very powerful about actually uh in health care.
I'm sorry, I'm going off a bit of a tangent here. Sorry that I think we need to be really wary of vertical hierarchy and it must be more horizontal for the development of people and for the safety of people. And that really underlines, doesn't it? The importance of, of, of not making assumptions about hierarchy that is, or isn't there, I think and just, and really kind of navigating it one step at a time.
And you could argue that that question that we started with, uh how are we gonna do this kind of levels, the playing field in terms of hierarchy, doesn't it, it, it kind of wipes the slate clean or at least it offers a fresh page on which to, to write, you know, but you're basically saying we can do this in any number of different ways. What, what would you like? How would you like to do it? How are you comfortable doing it? And let's, let's work it out together.
Yeah. So, and I think being non judgmental um and working in, in partnership with the thinker um is, is a huge, it, it's a, it's a, it's a huge thing in coaching and um something that we have to, you know, really be, be mindful of in every session. Yes. And that's why checking in is absolutely the most important thing because if we start in partnership, which is where we began this conversation.
The only way to stay in partnership through five minutes, 10 minutes an hour, two hours, however long you're talking to somebody for the only way to stay in partnership is to check in because otherwise I'm deciding whether this is working or not, whether this is useful or not without asking. So I think that that, yeah, I think checking in matters a lot. Can I just speak to what? Oh, sorry. Can I just speak to what he said about when people ask you for the information or tips or advice?
I used to get really, that used to be another squeaky bum moment for me and I used to do that. Oh, well, look, we've clearly misunderstood what this is all about and I basically took rapport out of the side and shot it in the head when I did that. And I realized that that's not the way to do that.
Um Basically, I learned mainly from all my cock ups in coaching conversations and um, I now go ok before I do that, can I just ask you some questions and then I'll check in and I'll be moving forward and then I just kick anything I'm thinking into the long grass. So I kind of accept it and ignore it and I'll just ask, would it be ok if I ask some more questions or would it be ok before I had anything in? So they're still on site and I haven't killed, report dead.
But actually I'll check in and say, oh, is this useful? And they go? Yeah, actually, and I go, where do we need to go? And actually the whole thing about them thinking they need tips and advice, just dies of death and they get their insight and I might just say, see, you didn't need anything from me and it's, you know, and that's how I've learned, but I've got it wrong a lot early on and that's why I ignore the question.
So I hear it but I know that they won't need anything and therefore I don't go into a great debate because I think that does it, it does odd things to trust because they go. But I thought you were gonna tell me how to do it. That's why I'm here and then there's a sort of disappointment, expectations thing going on. So I think normal is a really great strategy in coaching. I love what you said about just kind of ignoring what they said. Um, and I guess I haven't considered that was an option.
I tend to, I tend, and I, I almost, I tend to try and make them not feel bad at that point. I, I try not to. I, you know, I feel like I'm disappointing and by, oh, I'm so, you know, I'm not gonna give you that, but actually it's just better to go.
Yeah. Yeah. Fine. Let's crack on and then just not, you know, and then, because I know I'm not gonna give, you know, I know that's not how it's gonna end up, but maybe I'm making too big a deal about the fact that they need to know that in advance when actually it's just as effective for them to just experience it when we get there and then nobody feels awkward about the fact that, you know, that they, they've asked for something which might just be, it might just be a stock answer.
Mightn't it, it might not actually be that that's what they want. It might just be, well, that's what's come into my head when you've asked me a s, a slightly difficult question to answer. Try it out. Yeah, I'm definitely gonna try it out. I absolutely love the idea of just ignoring it. I worked about five years ago, I worked with some head teacher and uh they were going to be coaching, aspiring head teacher.
And uh, one of the things I said in the training was obviously, if this is coaching, you're not going to give any advice. So they practiced and they could not, they could not, they just felt they had to offer their wisdom and it was also being kind of pulled out of them by the people that they were working with because, you know, the, the, the, the perfect storm is somebody with a lot of wisdom with somebody who thinks they want it. It turns into a data transfer experiment thing.
So the next time I, in fact, yesterday I had somebody who was, who was there on that day on a course. And I said, you need to know, I learned a lot from you on that day. So the next time I ran the same training I said, um, you can put in but don't put in until you're absolutely clear with the person. What's the question? And which bit of the question is it that they're really looking for an answer to?
And when they did practice on that day, nobody put in anything because by the time the person had worked out what the real heart of the question was, they'd already found their own answer. And that was a big lesson to me that actually if we do some really great work with people about getting to them to the heart of what is the work we need to do?
Everything else disappears and then they start getting momentum, they start moving forward, they start being able to do their own stuff and they will have completely forgotten that they asked you good ideas. But at the end of the conversation, they'll go, that advice you gave me was brilliant because they were, they won't believe they did it themselves. And the less you say, the more they'll tell you that your advice was outstanding. And so at the end, if they say, oh, yeah, it's been great.
Thank you so much for all your advice. Would you mention it? Then, uh it depends on how high trust is that is that is a whole question for another episode, I think because there's an ethical question if you're working as an internal coach and you see half a dozen people who all say that to you who then talk to each other. And they say, well, she told me this, then you're in a real sticky mess.
Well, I, sorry, sorry, can I just, I just wanted to, to revert back about what you said about checking in. And I think that is one of the most important things that I've learned as a coach, um, to keep checking in with a client with a thinker and making sure that they're happy with the way that things are, are progressing. And I just wanted to add that it also as a coach gives me confidence that if there have been, you know, the odd moments where, you know, I don't know, they don't know.
Um, there are silences if they say, yeah, this, this is really good. This, this is what I want to be doing, then I gain that confidence that it's going right and that they're happy and they're gaining val value and insight from the session.
Um, and in fact, 11, session that I had yesterday, um I think she said, yes, I want to focus on, on these things and in, in the session and literally we went off on a tangent, she went off on a tangent in the first five minutes and the tangent lasted for an hour and a half. And, uh, and after, you know, 45 minutes, I said, are you happy with the way things are going? Yes. Yes. This is really important to me and we carried on and she literally spoke the whole time about this minute.
Yeah, offshoot of her, of her main goal. And it was so interesting and she was really happy with the session. Yeah. So I would say check in in an hour, check in 20 times and the art of checking in is check in before you need to check in and absolutely check in before you have any sense of panic or concern or. Oh, I'm not sure about this. You've got to make it a really normal thing because the minute you've got performance anxiety, they'll sense it.
And the checking in is this useful is heard as am I any good? So these so normal, I was on a podcast. I know a webinar with you uh Henley thing a couple of weeks back. I think the same one that Catherine was on actually. And you, you made that point about checking in and I realized I was only checking in once or twice towards the end of the session. And since then I have brought it right up front like in my head, I think in terms of shape.
So I think, well, I need to check in a third of the way through, um which feels really early. But um but it makes every subsequent one so much easier. And I think that there's a relationship, I think between the, how are we gonna do this and the check in? Because they, they're effectively sort of the same question and you may get an answer to how do we do this at the check in point? Um Even if he didn't get it up front.
So um I hadn't really in my head made that link between that question and that check in, but I think there definitely is one and I've, I've definitely changed it in the last month or so since that webinar and it's made a big difference. So thank you for that Claire piece of advice that thank you because now you've said both of them in one sentence next to each other. It made me think actually using similar language is really useful. So how are we going to do this?
And then the first check in is how we're doing makes complete sense because it, it's the same music, it sounds similar. Great. Well, we're coming up to time. And so I guess my question to all of you is what's the biggest insight I've had loads of insights, but I want to know what your biggest insight has been in this conversation. One of the biggest insights for me has been around not having to have an answer uh about letting things go, you know, no one's testing me for.
I asked 10 questions, but I only got seven answers. Um And that way I'll be able to say closer, closer to the client. They don't, they don't want to answer that question. It's uh or at that moment in time. And that reminds me that the right sizing is, is not for, for me as the coach to understand it's for us to have worked out what we're doing and if they're clear enough, I need to trust them.
So it's not the inquisition until I understand every, you know, the dot on, every I and the cross on every t it's actually a much more gentle way in who else. What are you, What are your insights? Thank you, Caroline. Because it's interesting, isn't it? As you talk, other ideas bounce. Who else? What's your insights? I think for me, it's also about how you're being when you're asking the question.
So if you like totally normal and non plus and it's conversational, first of all, I think you get a better answer. You're more like, I think when we're, we're a little bit right. What's my role? They shut down? Stress response. They shut down. The answer is gonna be, I don't know, cos they've switched off that part of their brain, they're in flight or fight. But if you're kind of quite relaxed, it's something I've had to work on as well.
Um, is just, it's ok if they don't know and if you're ok with it, they go, oh, this isn't so bad even if I say, I don't know. So I think it's not just what you're doing but who you're being whilst you're doing it is, is really important. Yeah. And presence. How I am inside is at the heart of amazing coaching fee. What are you taking away? Oh, I think that that big takeaway is the fact that um well, so much, firstly, so many, many things.
Um but I think the big one for me is if they do say this is what I want and it's, and it's hints and tips. So you feel like I should be reading a women's magazine or something. It's like, well, I can just to sort of brush over that and, and not have to tell them that they're not gonna get that, but just let them just let it happen.
Um Is a, is a really powerful learning because there's never, it's never, it's never a big thing, but it's always a bit of a thing and, and since you said at Mark probably is that breaking rapport a little sort of novel in report that there's just no point having when you, you could just go. Yeah, and on you go. So um yeah, so I think that's my big takeaway is whatever that answer is. If it's not, if it's not particularly helpful answer, you can just, you can just brush over it. Brilliant.
Thank you. And Catherine, what are you taking away your, what are your insights? Wow. It's been such an interesting session. Um I, I think for me, yeah, not being afraid of the unknown. Yeah, going into a session. Um No expectations. Um Listening. Um moving forward as the listener wants to move forward. Sorry, the thinker wants to look forward, listening, thinking and, and just going with it and, and not judging them or, or having no pretext for what will unfold.
Yeah, because the quality of the conversation isn't about what you do. It's about what happens as a result of the two of you being together. Yeah. And I love what Mark said about not having any of his experience or books or, or anything on. Did you say your website Mark? Um So that people just see you as you are and as you're coming across and I think that's uh that's a really lovely way to present yourself. Yeah, absolutely.
Because we're human beings who have a small part in facilitating the thinking of other human beings. So thank you for being a great bunch of humans. Uh I'll pop your linkedin profiles in the show notes rather than have us say them here because people are probably driving or walking can't write them down. Um But Mark Chappell, Caroline Drummond, Katherine Kramer and F Craig, thank you so much for bringing the question and uh thrushing it about so much learning for all of us.
And uh thank you to everybody for listening. If you have a question about an aspect of coaching where you'd like to dig deeper. Let's talk here at the Coaching Inn, email us on info at 3D coaching.com. So thank you all. Uh And thank you to our listeners and enjoy the rest of your day. Bye bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media.
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