You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Welcome, I'm Claire Pedrick and today at The Coaching Inn, I'm in conversation with Fiona McBride. So I read a blog that Fiona shared on Facebook about holding space and I thought it was brilliant. So I contacted Fiona and said, come to the pub and talk about it. So here she is, welcome Fiona. Hello, thank you very much for having me. This is awesome.
So we've never met before, so. Do tell me and us about you. Yeah. So my name's Fiona McBride. I'm a freelance learning consultant. I do facilitation, learning design, and also yoga teacher as well. That's in the more recent couple of years that I've trained as a yoga teacher. And that's a little bit of a side kind of hustle. My main work is still learning consultancy, which I love and brings me. lot of joy.
I'm based down in Sussex near Brighton and I think yeah you said you read my blog on Facebook it might have been Twitter. Yes I did post some things on on Facebook but yes I'm very much in the Twitter space and I love kind of networking and sharing ideas and learning from others in that space as well and yeah occasionally share little bits of writing that might have come to me as I reflect throughout my work.
Yeah. So tell us about holding space, Fiona, because I was really struck about the yoga and the holding space thing. And I just would love us to hear about your take on what you're learning about holding space. Yeah, gosh, it's quite a big question, isn't it really? I think it's something I've been quite aware of as a thing that I do.
in my role as a facilitator, know, in my role is even when I was training, you know, when I used to run training courses, it kind of featured in that as well and the work of that. And it definitely features in the work of coaching as well. And I think I became more mindful about it as I started to kind of hone my craft a little bit. So I started to learn more about different facilitation tools and techniques and had supervision within my coaching.
So I started to think about this thing that was around being present, kind of being with people or being with someone in a space and that space could be in person or digitally like we are, you know. And there's a number of layers to it. And so I just started, I suppose, reflecting on that, chatting about that with some people that I work closely with. And then, yes, I put some thoughts down on my blog and they're just my initial thoughts really about it.
And I wondered if it would resonate with others and it obviously has because you got in touch with me and I had other people comment and send me messages. And I do think it's something that often we don't realise we're doing. So it's something that maybe doesn't have. a label, you know, maybe someone out there has a term, maybe there's a term for it that I could learn about.
But it's that piece, yeah, that piece around being present in a moment with somebody and supporting them in some way, shape or form. And the support might be listening, it might be helping the individual to explore something by being inquisitive, you know, and asking questions like a coach does.
And then as I did my yoga teacher training, and I kind of learnt about the skills to teach yoga, and I learnt about the history and philosophy of yoga, I realised it was very much in that place as well, this role of holding space.
And I actually wrote a short blog called Crossover, before this blog that you saw that I've written, that talks about the similarities, the unexpected for me similarities of being in a room with people, holding space for them and helping people to progress or to be challenged or to try something new. And you can think about that both in the context of learning and development, but also yoga and a yoga class, you know, different postures or different type of breath work or meditation.
So yeah, it's something that's definitely helped, well, it's got me being more reflective, I think, about how I work. That's so interesting. Does that make more, does that make sense? because I'm waffling at you, feel. No, you're not waffling at all. But I think presence is at the heart of coaching. And I was doing a supervision session last week, and it was lovely, there were three of us. And I love that because you always come out with more learning than you.
I always think I learn more than I offer. But anyway, it was was amazing. But we were talking about about presence and clarity being at the heart of coaching. But one of the things I think about in relation to presence is that you can't see it. Can you teach somebody to be present when that's not their natural thing is a really interesting question, but you absolutely know when it's not there. because suddenly it feels unsafe, doesn't it? And it feels harsh and difficult and all of those things.
So this invisible thing, what is it? Yeah, I definitely think it's a felt. It's something felt, isn't it? Like, know, when it's not there. Yeah, I think it is in action. I think there are ways you can hold space, quite obviously, or you can hold space well or not so well. I think then there are ways you can hold space through your body language. and through how you connect with the other person. And that's, think, I come at it.
That's what I was saying before about I feel like there's layers to this. Because just because I'm sitting in a room with you, or sitting in a Zoom room with you, doesn't necessarily mean I'm fully here. And that's quite understandable too, right? So we both came on here and said hello, and we were saying how busy our days have been. So it's quite understandable that even in this kind of talk that we're having, that our minds might wander off.
your brain is always thinking and planning and on alert, isn't it? You can't stop the brain from doing that. Just like you can't stop your lungs from breathing. You know, it's a natural thing. The brain keeps going. It keeps moving on and around and making sense of things. So actually being present and being in the moment with somebody is also quite an ask as well, I think. So it can be quite heavy depending on the context that you're, I suppose it will kind of in.
Yeah. That comes back to a thing that I've sat with for many years, which is the question, can full-time coaches coach full-time? And I think you've just beautifully articulated why the answer to that question is always no. Yeah, and I'm kind of okay with that too, right? So I'm okay with... Yeah, I'm okay with it. I don't think there's anything more to say because we're not robots, we're human beings.
And even though presence is invisible, it also requires quite a significant amount of energy and attention. And skill. I've been consulting freelance for nine years. And before that, I was doing a very similar role in-house at the Royal National Institute for Blind People. And I very much have worked with amazing people and people new in the world of learning and development and facilitation. And the other end of the scale, people are extremely experienced, you know?
And I definitely think it's a skill to be learned. don't, you know, I think a few people maybe have a natural ability to. come into a space and to hold it well, but I do think it's about being very self-aware and knowing kind of what you bring into the space with you and acknowledging that and working on that and doing your own work first in some cases before you can truly be there fully for others. Yeah. Does that, yeah, does that kind of land with you, how I've kind of described that? It does.
And I think that you, without knowing it, or you might have known it, you added something else, another layer to the gift of presence and holding space, as you said. And I did that in my role as learning development with the Royal National Institute of Blind People. Because of course there, I'm guessing, you're being fully present with people who can only sense or feel your presence. They can't necessarily see your presence. Yeah, depending on the colleagues I was supporting working with, sure.
And so I think there's just so much to think about. And I think that's why it's so important that even, even, even with, when I think about simple courses that I used to run, you know, back when I first started doing, you know, I used to run inductions and when I used to do time management, you know, we've all been there doing a couple of hours on a topic and helping a group like explore it quite simple with a handout, a couple of slides, you know, that kind of thing. It's always there.
There's always something in this around allowing space for people and helping people and being able to hold that space well so that everybody else that's in there can have their own journey and can do what they need and be supported to do what they need to get the most out of that time. which is why I think I have over the last few years, lean more towards facilitation and come away a little bit from the training course space.
Cause I think what I often refer to as pure facilitation, when I'm purely in the space with a group and I have no technical expertise whatsoever, the expertise I bring in is the facilitation expertise. Then I could go into a room full of people who are brain surgeons and I don't need to know anything about brain surgery. I just need to know good stuff about people, how to help a group come together and pay attention, notice what's going on in a group to hopefully hold it well.
So there's a comfortableness in not knowing. Very much so. And there's a trusting the process in facilitation, isn't there? In exactly the same way as there's a trusting the process in coaching in that I have no control here. Yeah. And that's okay. yeah, and letting that go. if you, so we've all done it again, we're human beings. If we find that we're actually realizing we're kind of leaning towards all wanting to control or we feel like we need to take control, reflecting on that.
acting on it, you know, so having that kind of couple of seconds or few seconds thought process to check in with ourselves and, and see where that need is coming from. And that's very much what I learned so much more about in my yoga teacher training, which is I just had this like bizarre thing about how these two worlds have completely crossed over. Because as a yoga teacher, at the front of a room on my mat. Yes, I've trained in breath practice, meditation, postures, know, yoga asana.
And I know stuff about those things. I actually only truly know what it feels like in my body and how it feels like for me. So everything I have when I teach in a yoga class is only ever an offering or an invitation to others to try or to take. And it's never my place to tell or to insist or to try and force anyone into a shape or into a place that isn't for them. And I think you could take those words and pretty much put them into facilitation or coaching.
And it's the same thing, which I find fascinating. Yeah, I've just come off a training session in the health service. where people are learning to use coaching as a way of engaging with patients and colleagues and trainees. The focus today was saying a lot less words, like a lot less words. And one of them said in the feedback afterwards, that felt really harsh because when we didn't say very many words, it sounded very judging.
And we had a really interesting conversation because of course that's all about tone. And tone is all about the difference, isn't it, between an offer, which is what you're describing in your yoga teaching, your offering. And some people will take up that offer and make it their own. Some people will take up that offer as is, and some people won't take up the offer at all. And all of those are fine and anything else. But we were talking about how easy it is to make a statement.
And the same thing as a statement is different from exactly the same words as an offer. Because one of those is very present and the other one is very harsh. Yeah. And I wonder if, I wonder if in the world of work, or maybe even, I don't know, I'm just thinking about this now, so this might come out a bit jumbled. But I'm wondering if, what if we made more offers in our everyday? What if we put things out there? Yeah, put things out there in more of an offering style.
Because, well, how I would interpret that is it's then more open and for dialogue and for discussion. Where other than a statement is quite, feels like there's a really big full stop at the end of a statement. And that's the end of it. And it actually stops conversation. So it makes coaching really difficult because you've just made somebody have a full stop by the tone in which you've spoken, I think.
Yeah. And also within this, which is another area that I'm quite interested in, we've spoken about a couple of times on, on to conference and on another podcast, funnily enough, was about silence and pausing. and being comfortable with that. And I think that's a big part of this holding space, this facilitation work, the inviting that slowing down, even when it feels, inviting that kind of slowing down and a little bit of silence and a pause, even if it feels uncomfortable for people.
I think it does. And I didn't think I appreciated quite how uncomfortable people are nowadays with slowing down and pausing and having silence and allowing the brain to make sense of things and to connect the dots and to catch up. So, so I'm reading a little bit around that and, yeah, finding that quite quite intriguing and interesting. And there's a, can I share a quote with you? This is really random.
But just suddenly, but it just, very short and it's roomy and it says in silence, there is eloquence. Stop weaving and see how the pattern improves. And that to me is like, it's everything. Because it's saying, if you can create space for silence, you can just, wow, know, wait and see what comes out of that. That is such a beautiful quote. Stop weaving and see how the pattern improves. And sometimes people need that permission, don't they? Sometimes people need some permission.
I think that's another interesting thing about holding space. Sometimes you're really giving people permission. to be a bit different, be slower, be quieter, to whatever the... I don't think people get that all the time, or as much as maybe they want to. And there's also about where you use silence in a conversation, isn't there? And sometimes it might be after the insight. So I was observing a coaching session this morning and...
It was lovely actually, because it was the final session of a training course and one of them hadn't really quite got it. And then she suddenly did. I mean, like she really did. And she had this huge insight that she wasn't expecting. And the person who was coaching kind of went, so is there anything else we need to do? So in the feedback, I said, I wonder how that was experienced.
And I wonder what it would have been like if you just stayed and let her absorb that amazing thing that had just happened that you had co-created between you, what would just of, well, being present or being silent have done in that moment? Yeah. But we rush on and lose the insight, don't we?
Yeah, and I think we rush on because maybe we feel like... more talking the next question, the action points are the doing and I don't think we appreciate how much of doing is letting the brain catch up joining the dots reflection, you know, that stuff. And that stuff is typically usually quieter. Yeah. For a good reason.
You know, so when when I talk with or when I support other learning professionals, in facilitation, I talk a lot about getting comfortable with being silent, getting comfortable with not jumping in with the next thing. And sometimes to get a bit more comfortable with that, we just need to signpost it a bit. It can be as simple as saying, you know, we're going to, you know, show with a group say, can even like lay it out quite simply. We've got a couple of questions we need to focus on today.
This is how I'm going to structure the session as a suggestion. You know, we'll have a couple of minutes to all just settle and gather our thoughts as pens and paper and just doodle or write ideas down. We'll go into smaller groups and pairs, we'll go into, you know, fours and fives, and we'll come together as a big group and share things out.
And there's always these moments for pausing and stopping along the way to ensure you're connecting with this and you're able to have the conversations, conversation you need to have. during and people really, think at first it feels alien for some people, but then people drop in and they find it, they find it really useful and quite different. You've used the word connecting a few times. And it's made me think as you've been using it. If we don't give people the space to do the connecting.
Then they leave. Disconnecting. And some people will take the time and space to allow the connecting to happen afterwards, won't they? Because not everybody connects quickly. some people get, I mean, I often say people get their best insight tomorrow. But some people will be doing something else tomorrow and won't be giving themselves the connecting time. But if we're not connecting, what are we doing?
Yeah. My brain's like sparking up in all different directions even right now, just as we're talking. And yeah, again, how often do we, you know, do we allow that to happen, you know, allow that to be a thing? And what do we see as? So what do we see as the work? That's not quite right. we see the physical obvious doing is the work, right? So Fiona's working hard if she's on another call, if she's doing her emails, if she's typing away furiously.
Is Fiona working when she's sitting, looking out the window or just doodling on a bit of paper? We have this really odd thing where quite often the comment she is. when she's busy, I'm using the fingers off in the air, like little better commas. Then she's doing an active, but actually, yeah, we need space to allow the brain to connect and do some of that work a little bit more silently. So you're almost opening up the door to being present to ourselves as well as being present to others.
Yeah. Yes. And I think in coaching and in facilitation, to be honest, if we're finding, if we're at a point with a group or an individual and I need just a little bit more of that pausing of that silence to help me, then I can say that. You again, it's about if people feel uncomfortable with this stuff, it's okay to say it out loud. you know, it's that work in progress, isn't it? And say, something came to me then. So let's sit with that for a minute.
it'd be useful to gather my thoughts to share back with you or you know, so we can, this doesn't have to be a kind of secret way of working or, you know, or a certain like secret club or whatever. We can be saying those things out loud and I wonder if that helps others because that then gives permission that it's okay not to have a response straight away or not to have a response straight away or not be ready to move on straight away. Which, yeah.
One of things I noticed can be really useful for coaches is not to break the silence. So if you let the person you're coaching break the silence, your silences will be massively longer. But what we do is, think often coaches will come up with another question because they've had a good idea. But of course, in the internal world, the thinker is moving forward in a different direction at different pace. So we need to get back in sync, don't we?
Yeah. And I do see this as, you know, I'm in service to, I'm in service to that individual, I'm a coach, I'm in service to that group of people I'm facilitating. I'm in service to the people in the yoga studio, you know, doing a, doing a yoga class with me. And therefore it's, I need to keep myself in that frame of mind thinking, you know, how can I provide that and hold that space best for them?
And so when those voices are going, it's been two minutes, you've not said anything, the person across the table from you in this coaching session, like, you know, it's only the second session, you're still getting to know each other, you know, and all those little voices that come in and say, something else or has this been too long, like just quieten those down and just trust, trust that it's okay to hold that space in a maybe slightly different way.
I may have said this at the coaching in before, but I think it's worth saying again, I was doing a coaching demonstration on site just before the first lockdown and somebody I'd not met before who volunteered to be coached in front of the group, 24 other people. And in the feedback afterwards, one of the delegates who was observing said to me, well, that was brutal because you didn't do anything. You made her do all the work. But then he also said, you were silent for three minutes.
That was really awful. You should have spoken. You know, you shouldn't be silent for three minutes. So I looked at the person who'd done the thinking and I said, how did you experience the silence? And she said, what silence? Yeah. So what's an outsider? a fix, they have fixed me to go, that was really uncomfortable, you should never have done that. But actually, she didn't even notice. Because she was busy. And if she was busy, she didn't need me. No, well, she did.
She needed me to be present, didn't she? But she didn't need me to say anything or do anything or be anything apart from that. And so now, I'm feeling like yourself and that coachy, you know, nailed it. That was awesome. I wanted to focus on that. Is it a guy? I've made a bit of an assumption. Did you say it was a he that said someone in the group? It was a he. I suddenly thought, hang on, check my notes. I'm going to focus on that. I'm like, OK, so what's that all about?
That's really interesting. I'm really, really good that he said that out loud because I'm sure other people would have been thinking that too. And so that's being able even to share that and say that felt uncomfortable or whatever, know, the wording was around it. Like, okay. And like pick up, pick up into that a little, you know, scratch the surface on that a little bit and find out what that discomfort is.
But it goes back, doesn't it, to what you were saying earlier about, I need to be doing something, I need to be, and space matters hugely. So Fiona, I'm gonna pop a link to your blog in the show notes so people can read the lovely list of things that you've started off with really about, here are some. Here are some starters for 10 really about holding space for others effectively. If you had one nugget of insight or learning to share with our listeners as we finish, what would it be?
my goodness. On anything in the world? Like... On presents would be good. I was like, ice cream? Hmm. Crikey, what a question. Okay, it's quite a big one. And then we won't have time to go into it now. But I think there's something for me in all of this about doing your own work.
So if you were that gentleman in that group that you just were describing, he was going that was you're counting the minutes, you know, it's three minutes of silence and not doing, you know, something, then sit with that and work out what's going on for you.
Because we know there's There's research, there's science out there that shows that allowing the body and the brain to slow down a little and holding space for others to allow them to gather their thoughts is very powerful and can make human beings super effective, you know, and engaged and all the things that come with, you know, with that.
So sit, yeah, my thing would be try and sit with yourself a little and work out what are the, maybe the triggers or the conditioning things you have that might be barriers to trying out some of this stuff. And that's like, that stuff's not bad by the way. And there's no judgment in that at all. But if there's something about this topic that intrigues you, and start to do a little bit of that, like reflected practice, asking why identifying some, yeah, some things.
I think that can be hugely, hugely helpful. Brilliant. Well, thank you, Fiona. So I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been in conversation with Fiona McBride. So Fiona, how do people contact you if they want to pick up this conversation? Well, I love chatting. So on my website, theonamcbride.com, very simple. You'll find my contact details. I'm on Twitter.
You can send me a DM and or just jump on a phone call and chat with me about it because I can get quite geeky about these things and love nattering away. I can't believe how quickly the time's Exactly. very much for having me. Well, you're welcome. And thank you for saying yes when I just DM'd you on Twitter and said, can we talk? So thanks, Fiona. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Bye bye.
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