You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. So welcome. My name's Claire Pedrick and today I'm in conversation with Robert Stephenson. Robert, hello and welcome. Hello, Claire. Great to be with you today. And great to have you. So tell us a bit about you and your coaching journey, gosh, that's... Do you want the long version or the short version? The middle-sized version would be fantastic.
Middle-sized version. Okay, so I got into coaching... through theatre. I trained as an actor and I was working for an organisation called Creative Partnerships where artists and educators would work together to create stimulus for learning with young people. Whilst working on that I met Lady Corbin Tilda Gilbert who is an amazing facilitator. And I was like, my young cocky self was like, I'm good at this. but this woman is outstanding. It's like, what are you doing? How are you doing it?
And in a conversation, she talks about her training and the various methodologies she used and coaching was one of those things. So I went off and I did kind of an exploration of coaching, read a couple of books. I did a short course, which was mainly the grow model at the time. And I remember thinking, this doesn't work for the young people that I'm working with. So what else can I do add to it? And that was kind of my gateway into coaching.
And it kind of spiralled from there because I didn't really learn to be a coach or learn coaching to become a coach. I learned it to be a better facilitator. But in that facilitating of young people, of course I started asking them different questions. you know, I, as a lot of people know, drama is a great, kind of access route to working with young people anyway, I think all art forms are.
And teachers would be like, well, you how did you get that person to join in or how did you get that group to work together so well? Or what is that? You ask really weird questions, they would say to me, you ask odd questions. And can you come back and ask those odd questions, but with this specific group or with this young person? And then it was like, well, can you do that with teachers?
And so, and because I was already doing drama in a lot of these schools, they would just invite me back because they already knew me. And it was that thing of, know, once somebody knows and likes you, then you can kind of get it and do lots of other things. So, and it kind of just spiralled from there really. That sounds so interesting. And now you're coaching in different contexts. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I coach, still, so I still coach young people. I coach kind of young leaders.
So I work with an organization as an associate coach and it's all about sort of young leaders and emerging leaders. So I coach them, I coach in the exec space. I do the kind of classic life coaching work as well, plus the sort of the mentoring stuff that I do and kind of support coaching, hybrid, weird thing. whatever you want to call it that I do as well. So it's kind of like a whole range of spaces that I work in.
And I think that's partly due to my own necessity to have new and different things taking place to keep me kind of thinking and exploring and creating. Wow. So many things that we could follow up there, Robert. A couple of things that that I noticed as you began to speak, which I think are worth just noticing for the benefit of all of us listening. One is that conversation that you had with that lady at the beginning, Matilda.
Matilda, there's something, isn't there, about always moving with people who are better than you are? Yeah. Yeah. And because that's such an inspiring way of growing and developing. And the other thing that I absolutely love. is that you never planned for it to be like this clearly and the whole journey has evolved from one thing to the next thing to the next thing.
Yeah, and I think, so I did a whole talk about relationships and how the relationships in my life have always been the catalyst for the next things. When we meet people and they talk about what they do or they talk about a project they're working on, And the next thing I know, I'm involved in it on some level or it's kind of triggered my thinking into something else and I'm moving in a different way. And there isn't a real plan for it.
There might be a bit of a plan, but when I look back on my life, it kind of makes sense when I join the dots, especially when I kind of go, well, what am I doing now? When I look back, all of these things led to this now. But it's hard for me to go, what am I going to be doing in five years time? Cause I've got no idea who I'm going to meet along the way. And I think, you know, surrounding yourself with people that are, that push you, that are better than you.
mean, it's that old sports thing, isn't it? You you play with somebody better than you so that you can improve. And I remember when I used to play badminton way back when I was in school, you want to play the best person, but they're going to thrash you. but you know when you go back and play with your peers, you're gonna be better than you was.
So it's like, how do you get better than you were by being with those that are better than you, that are gonna push you, that are gonna enable you to grow and who are gonna do it in a way that is supportive and generative and encouraging and inspiring as opposed to challenging and demoralizing and kind of capping and So it's like, how do you find people that do that to you as opposed to kind of push you away or inwards? Yeah, yeah. So I'm hearing that evolution is a legitimate business plan.
Yes, I think so. I think so too. It can be scary. So right now, I'm in a really interesting space because I've gone back into the freelance.
world and sort of as the year begun I sort of went I don't have a thing that I just go and slot into like I had been doing for the last five years yeah so it feels I saying to me I feel a bit floaty and I'd forgotten how that feeling is and how you sit with that well you don't know what's going to emerge but you know something will because it always does because that's the free nature of our existence is something comes into the space.
And how do you stay open to what that something might be so that you can then take it on and you can be part of it. But allowing those things to emerge and allowing yourself the time for that as well. So not keeping so busy that you can't notice the new, you allow yourself the time and the freedom to allow newness to come in and new relationships to to be built and to be created? Yeah, I'm employed and I still have freelance paranoia.
So I just looked at my diary for this year where I've intentionally said no to things and had and that's work that's going to be delivered by colleagues in order to free up my diary. And then I look at my diary with the gaps in it and go, no. You know, I've had some beautiful work come in this week where there's space for it because that's what I did and I did it on purpose and still I'm going, it's really interesting, the whole dynamic of that.
Yeah, but can I pick up on the thing that you talked about around young people and coaching not quite working? Because a lot of our listeners, are asking questions about coaching with young people. And we've got a few people coming up over the next few weeks who are working with young people in different ways. So I'm just interested in your take on coaching young people.
And, know, I kind of want to sort of caveat this with this is just my way of exploring it and what I've come to understand that works. how I'd like to work and for what works with me and for me it's this idea that when you're working with young people, when you're coaching young people, they are young people and they have less life experience and less decision making experience than an older person might have.
They also have less autonomy and they have less ability to look into the future around actions and notice the consequences of them. Yeah. So as a coach working with young people, I feel that part of my role is to support that future looking without saying, well, if you do that, it's going to, you know, going to get into trouble or that's not going to work, but to offer insights and ideas and thoughts.
that come from my experience of life and to be a bit of a mentor as well and to be a bit of a cheerleader and a buddy alongside. it's not pure coaching in the sense of, what, excuse me, so what might you do or what would be useful here? But there's also, okay, so you might do that. That's interesting. Cause I might do this and I might do that. I've seen so-and-so do this and this is what happened there. So what do you think? that happened with you in this.
there's a lot more offering and pulling on other stories from experiences and other work with young people that's thrown into the mix to help them, I guess, scaffold their thinking by pulling on other people's thinking and experiences. That was such a great example that you slipped in there, Robert, of offering a range of options. rather than selling your preferred option. And that's so key, isn't it?
Yeah, because the thing is, right, we can know when we work with young people that when we work with adults, it isn't to say that young people are different. But as a coach, you sometimes get caught on or find yourself attached to a, this would be a good thing to do. And when we're working with adults, we kind of bracket that and we keep pulling from them. When I'm working with young people, I will offer that. But I know that if I offer just that, they will smell it.
They will sense that that's what I'm trying to do. Because also we have to recognise that a young person's job is to find the chinks in your armour, to find the cracks in your system and to press that. So if you just tell them what you think they should do and give them one single option, they're gonna push it, they're gonna reject it because that's just their design. So you give them a plethora of ideas and possibilities and you have to be able to go, and I don't care, you choose, I don't care.
And I think the other thing working with young people is you have to get past the sort of the authority piece that sits in the space.
I remember when I was working with Animus and we were first creating the Coaching with Young People development program, there was a whole piece that we explored around a lot of the time young people are being told to do something or there is a person of authority in the space with them, be that teacher, parent, governor, social worker, whatever that might be, somebody in authority over them, guiding, pushing, maneuvering them in a particular direction or wanting something from them.
And as a coach, you don't want something from them apart from what they want. But there's a lot of work that has to go into making them the wrong word, but in allowing them to... to recognise and to see that that's what you're about. Yeah, I've had a few conversations with people over the years about the impact of certainly the British education system on how young people think. in order to get an A, you need to do the following three things, one, two, three.
And then they do the one, two, three, and then they get the A. And then I hold that intention with that beautiful chapter in... What's he called? In the Art of Possibility by Benjamin Zander. Have you read that book? I haven't read that. I'm going to make a note of that. My goodness, it's worth reading. It's a beautiful book. He used to be the conductor of the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra. And there's a chapter on leading from the second chair, from the second violins.
It's just a fabulous book. And one of the things that that he says is encouraging people to talk about what an A would look like. But when you've been in an education, or what would an A look like for you? But when you've been in an education system that says in order to get an A, you have to do this, flipping over to what would an A in your life feel like, look like, be like is a big shift because they're going to go, well, you tell me.
Yes. And that's the biggest challenge is they go, they would say to me, well, sir, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to say? And I go, first of all, I'm not sir, I'm Robert. And they go, yeah, sorry, sorry, I keep forgetting. sorry, Robert. And then I'd go, but we've spoken about this, right? So this isn't about what I want for you. Because what I want for you is for you to enjoy being in this space or for you to... to mix with your class and have a great learning experience.
That's what I want from you. So what do you want that's gonna help us get there? And there is a real partnering, I think, and I know that we do this anyway, but there is a real partnering and a real getting shoulder to shoulder with young people to go, I'm in this with you. So how are we gonna do this? I'm gonna fight. your battles with you, but I only have a certain amount of power. So I can't tell the powers that be to leave you alone. That's not going to happen.
But I can work with you so that we can get those powers off your back by shifting how you are. So how do we do that? And when you were talking there about the orchestra, it reminded me of a conductor friend of mine, Matt Andrews. I remember when we used to work together, he would say to the young people that, you know, before the music begins, there is silence so that we know the difference between music and non-music, between playing and non-playing.
And I've always loved that idea that before something begins, something has to be silent. or something has to be still. And so how do we have that stillness before? So how do we have a quiet mind before we do the thinking? How do we create a still space before we start moving? So what needs to come before in order for the thing to happen or for us to notice that the thing is happening?
My goodness, you've set me now on often a completely in a different train of thought about, cause, cause I think that there's a lot to be learned from, from musical conducting in coaching. If we're all right to change direction, are you okay to change direction? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, the conductor does a lot. but they do not create the music. The music comes from the orchestra and somewhere between the conductor and the orchestra is where the music's made.
And we did some training on, the first training we did on coaching presence was with a musical conductor, somebody who'd previously been a musical conductor, a guy called Andrew Morton Mumby in London. And he was then not available. we then, went to start using improv teachers to do the same thing because again, it's that the really important bit happens between the people. But there's so much to learn. Maybe we should get a musical conductor on the podcast to talk about it.
But I'm really curious what you said about the silence, because that's one thing. The other thing that I think is really interesting is the chaos. that it sounds like when you hear an orchestra playing before they start. So you get the... And then you get that beautiful silence and then the conductor taps the thing. and then off they go. And I think there's some learning there about beginning a coaching conversation cleanly.
And the pre-music is great, but you've got to be clear when you're starting the work. Absolutely. Because I think that there is a kind of a, I'm going to say a need, and I know coaches are going to jump on that word, but I'm okay with that. There is a kind of a need for a... So how are you? you're wearing that today. we're in this space and the, I'll put your bag there and organize yourself and okay, are we good? Okay. And then, Okay, so what are we exploring today?
I think there is a need for the kind of the chaos to exist in order for us to land. And then once we've landed, then we go, where do we want to take off and go? Yeah, and I call that the pre-conversation. But I think the art of the pre-conversation is to make it clear. when we're ending the pre-conversation, when we're starting the work. And I think that sometimes that's not clear. So I've noticed that in the last week, everyone I've spoken to, I think has had COVID or has got COVID.
And the pre-conversation is a bit longer because, you know, we have a crazy assumption that the Christmas New Year holiday is going to be a break for everyone. And for most people, it wasn't. And therefore the beginning of the new year is different from how it's probably been before in different ways. I think, so in that case, the pre-conversation is a bit longer, but we do need to be clear when we start doing the work.
Otherwise, one of us thinks we're doing the work and the other one thinks we're still landing. And then it gets really confusing. Yeah. And there's also the... confidence to close the landing to begin the work. And I think when you're a newer coach, we can feel less confident to end that pre conversation. And what I've noticed when I've worked with with coaches in a kind of supervision or mentoring way is that you hold the process, that's your job.
And If you don't take hold of that process, the client's going to just run with what's happening because they think, this is the process then. I think this is what's going on. This is what we're supposed to do. And part of our job is to go, okay, let's, let's begin. You know, is this a good time for us to begin or, or, know, whatever your language is to, bring you into that, but to actually have that separation between arrival and beginning the coaching. Totally.
Otherwise, as soon as you ask a question in that arriving bit, you both dive in, but you don't know what you're doing because you haven't worked it out. Yeah. Yeah. And you haven't settled. I used to work with a therapist. I recognize that's a slightly different way of working, but I think other coaches do this as well. And one of her things was you know, we'd have our Nata and our chat and all of that. And then she'd say, okay, so if you'd just like to close your eyes for a moment.
And I would know, we're beginning to do the work. She's going to ground me and make sure I'm here. And then we're going to start. And it was just that little sort of signal that we're about to start that she would present to me. And I think, you know, that the tapping of the, forgot what it's called now, the conductors use. Baton, that's it. The tapping of the baton is the signal to go, are we ready? Are we all here? Are we going to go?
And you you talked about improv and there's a look that the crew give each other just before they dive in. So they're getting all the information, working out what they're doing. And there's that little look that says, are we good to go? And then somebody moves and you know that the gun is just those little signals that we learn over time. that allow us to know, this is what we're doing now. Yeah. And the little signals that we learn over time, absolutely.
And in coaching, we need to remember that the person that we're working with doesn't know that. They don't know them. They don't know that. And that's why sometimes like we'll, we'll be working with. this also, this is, my gosh, my brain's jumping around. So let me hold onto one thought here. When we've been working with a group of a series of people that we've been working with for a long time, we can become a little bit relaxed around our signaling because they know the process.
And then we get somebody who's new to coaching and new to us. And it can feel a bit like what's going on. It's not quite working. It's because we haven't gone, right, this is new. I need to be stronger. in my signal, I need to be clear and upfront and say, this means this and this is what we're about. And this is how the process works and give them, it's like, it's almost like the conductor sketching out, this is how the music flows.
And when we get to this point, we're going to do this and we're going to pause here. And then this is going to happen before we begin the actual, the music and the play and the work. So we're tuning up. Yeah. Silence. Off we go. Yeah, yeah. And there's something really important about that tuning up that needs to happen.
Because without the tuning up, as you say, we start off and we don't know where we're going or we start and we're off key, we're out of sync, we're out of rapport with each other because we haven't tuned in or tuned up. Yeah. And I think that sometimes when we work with people for too long and too long is different for everybody, we start making a tune.
in the tuning up and then it's really unclear whether we're tuning up or playing the thing and that's the web or playing the music and that's the moment when we need to change the relationship and just go out for coffee because the formal coaching thing has lost its edge. Yeah and I think there is a a revisiting of...
So I've got a client I'm working with at the moment who we were on a course together, we buddied up together to support each other because we both have different styles and we both recognized in each other that those styles would be complimentary to completion of the program. And I often seek out... completers when I'm working on a course, because I know what I'm like, I'm creative, I'll go all over the place.
But I need somebody who's going to go, but this is when we're supposed to finish kind of thing. And then they invited me to partner with them as as their coach. And so there was just this conversation of and this is how we're going to work and to remember that we are working during this time, so that we can do the tuning up and then there's a big break and then we do the work.
And I think that when you've been working with somebody and you've developed that close relationship, it's like the boundary of coaching needs to be even stronger in order for the coaching to exist. Because otherwise, like you said, then let's just go for coffee. Because now we've just started exchanging ideas and thoughts and I no longer being your coach, how do I?
step back into holding that coach frame for you and not just being your mate whilst I recognise that, you know, being friendly and mates like is important in coaching, but we're not mates. I'm doing a job here. I'm coaching someone at the moment who I know very well. And we talked a lot about whether or not that was going to be okay. they, because I don't live near the office anymore. They came to the house and stayed over and we had a great time.
And I said to them, this is only going to work if we only do the coaching bit in the office, in my home office. And if we are at any risk of moving out of coaching, we move out of the office. Yep. And then we go and have a coffee in the kitchen. Yeah. So that, and actually, Because I've got this lovely home office now in our new house. I've had that happen two or three times, I guess. And being absolutely clear that if you come in the office, this is a work thing.
And if we're not in the office, it's a different kind of thing, is being really useful. But I think we have to be really careful on the boundaries. Yeah. And that's beautiful spatial anchoring there as well. It's like, we're here, this is what we do. If we're not here, then we can do all the or the other things. And I think there's something also for me that I think part of my spatial anchoring is my notebook. And it's like, so if we're coaching, I may not take any notes.
I often don't, I often take the odd word, but if the notebook's out and the pen's ready, then we're in that space. And then when it's away, then we've moved away from it. And it's just my little anchor to go, this is me working. So you know what you're doing. And me knowing what I'm doing creates a different energy and a different relationship to what's happening in the space. think something you said earlier on about it's between us that the music happens.
It's between us that the coaching happens, but we need to create that space between us for it to happen. it's not that I govern the space, but part of my job is to create that space. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, part of my job is to create that space. And actually part of my job is to really ensure that we're both clear what we're And that, because that allows me, it kind of gives me a permission then to say, wait a minute, what's happening here right now? What are we doing?
What have we slipped into? How are we being in this? Because when I was teaching coaching, training coaches, which I'm about to start again towards the end of this year, which I'm ridiculously excited about. But when I was previously teaching coaches, I'd often say, don't coach your friends because of all the stuff that's inherent in a friendship and that you bring with it.
But I also recognize that when friends had a very clear thing that they wanted to work on, I was happy to coach them because I was like, well, this isn't about a relationship. This is about you want to do X and there's something in the way. let's explore what that something might be. Right. You want to create a plan, right? Let's create that plan and being very clear about, this is the work that we're doing.
And I might ask you a different question than I would if we were just out for a chat, because I'm doing something different here. And I think what's also interesting in this is the, when we're not coaching, we're still coaches. And so when we're just having a chit chat with somebody, those questions still come to mind. We still notice those limiting beliefs or limiting language or incomplete sentences or stuff that's underneath that's still all happening.
But when we're not coaching, there's a thing of going, well, okay, it's not my job. I'm not invited to do this. So I'm just gonna step back. from that whilst at the same time, anybody that knows me will know that it's often a little quizzical look that happens when I noticed that. And then sometimes they'll invite me, what's that that you've noticed? And other times we'll both just have a laugh and continue doing what we're doing. It's about permission, isn't it?
And I think one of the things that I really noticed about coaching is how abusive it can be feel. in the wrong context and often in the friend context, I think that's a risk. And the reason for that is, think, is that when I'm with a friend, like now we're having a chat, so it's bouncing between us and it's a bit about you and it's a bit about me and it's a bit about the state of the coaching profession.
It's bouncing around and there's an equality in the exchange, whereas because coaching is a conversation between two people about one of us, if it's not permissioned and we're not really agreed that that's what we're doing, it can feel really abusive because what I'm doing is I'm taking my stuff out of it and making it all about you without you going, well, I didn't want it to be all about me.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is, know, this often when our friends or family say, well, you know, stop coaching me. I don't want to be coached. Yeah. And we can say, I'm not coaching you. You know, that was it was just a question. But I do sometimes wonder, is it just a question or is it a question? Because I think it's OK to ask a question that comes from your way of thinking and your way of thinking is that of coach, but to also recognize that that's where it's come from.
So, you know, sometimes friends will say something and I'll just catch my thought and go, I see what's happening in my head here. Hmm. Do I want to ask that or not? And then sometimes I might go, I've got a question here that might be useful or not useful, but it's kind of a coaching question. Are you up for that? And just kind of go, do you want this? And they go, yeah. Or they go, stick your coaching with the sun. whatever it might be.
then, and then we have that bit of a conversation or we don't. Yeah. I've just had a, I've just had a realisation about the orchestra. So when we're with friends, we're playing a tune, aren't we? So it's like we're playing music together in a band. We're being together. And to suddenly go, you play the music, I'm going to be the conductor. When they go, actually, we were just improvising jazz here. And you go, well, I'm going to be the conductor. It's really weird.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. what's, see, this is really interesting because when you are... devising theatre, but sometimes in that devising space, there is no director, it's just the company. And we take a position, what's sometimes called the third eye or the outside eye, where you are observing what's happening as if you're outside of it whilst you're in it. And then sometimes people will step out and take the directorial position and then come back into it.
And when you're with a group of coaches, that's... what kind of happens is that people will take on being the coach leader, as it were, and then it will all get mixed up again. But there's almost like an unsaid agreement that that's the game that we're playing, or we're happy to play that game because we recognize who we are in this space. So there's also something about recognizing who are we in this space? Are we all a group of coaches?
to understand what's happening and can play that game or are we not and therefore something else needs to happen, new permission needs to be sought. And there's something about, I don't wanna call it arrogance, but it might be arrogant where we decide that we can become the conductor without getting permission. Yeah, and they were doing improv and now suddenly, they were improvising jazz and suddenly we go, right, we're conducting here. Yeah. And then we wonder why does it get all sticky?
It gets sticky because everybody's going, wait, what's happening here? What's my role in this? And also there's something about we go, well, have you been conducting this the whole time and I wasn't aware. So what's been happening without my awareness, without my permission, which also creates another boundary that comes up.
Yeah. Yeah. which makes it even more important to begin coaching because the coachee doesn't, yeah, the coachee doesn't want to feel that something has been happening before they're ready for it to happen. It reminds me of a situation I found myself in where I was with an, another very experienced coach in a training situation. And I said to them about something that was happening elsewhere. said, I'd really like to hear your take on this.
And it was a place where there was permission to ask those kinds of questions. They said to me, so what do you think? And I said, I'm not asking you to coach me. I'm asking you as somebody who runs an organization a bit like the one I run, what your take is on this? And then they tried to coach me again. And I completely lost trust in them because because it felt like they were taking power over me.
when somebody asks that to me, I'm quite happy to say actually, my take on this is this, because they're asking me in a peer to peer way. Yeah. But to but to but to offer a coaching response in an inner in a normal everyday conversation. I want to go.
That felt really mean to be honest, because I was looking for two or three people who I really respected, who would have experienced the same thing or similar, just to tell me what they did and what they were doing so that I could then make my own meaning and work out what I was going to do. And they went, I'm not going to tell you. Yeah. And that broke trust.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's really interesting because I do a little bit of business mentoring and in it, although I do a lot of coaching in it, I'm also sharing my thoughts, my ideas and my opinions because I know that when I was business mentored in the past, I found it infuriating because they just wouldn't tell me stuff. They just kept going on, what do you think? You know, what do you think the best way to make that happen is? And I'd be like, I don't freaking know. I don't know.
I need you to just go, here's a way of doing this. Try that for a week. And here's another way. Give that a go. And here's two books. Go read them. Let's discuss them. Just, just give me something here. Because then you start to go, well, do you know? Do you have an opinion? Do you have a thought? Is your thought secret? And what's that about? And then all of this stirring takes place and we go, I don't know what's happening in this space now, so I need to step out of the space.
Yeah. So clarity counts, doesn't it? I think, you know, I work with a couple of people where we have a range of things that are happening in the space. from coaching to mentoring and supervision all wrapped up in a package.
And I'll only do that if I feel that they can understand, feel that they can understand, if we have a conversation where it's clear that they get the different ways that we're gonna work and that I'm able to work with them on those different levels and be clear, what do we work, how are we working right now? Am I being a supervisor right now or am I being your coach right now or am I mentoring you right now? Am I clear about that and are you clear about that?
So that we can operate in accordance with each other at that point. Because if I'm doing one thing and you're receiving something else, it's only going to be a mess and a confusion. Yeah, because the conversation is only powerful when we're both clear. And we're doing what we agreed. also offer, in fact, when I, when I do coaching supervision in that initial conversation, when we're checking out whether we want to work together, I say to people, I'm really happy to be hybrid here.
And, we will need to work out together all the way through what we need to be doing. And sometimes I'll say, which hat do you want me to wear? And they'll go, I don't know. And I'll say, well, with my supervision hat on, I'd be asking this. with my mentoring hat, I'd be saying this, with my coaching hat, we might be going here. So which would you like or would you like something else? And sometimes they go, I want the human. Yeah. Isn't it interesting?
We've come, we've come full circle back to that hybrid thing that we started talking about the beginning in relation to young people. So maybe that's a good point to finish today. So I guess my question to you, Robert, as we finish is, how do people get in touch with you? And what's your biggest learning from this conversation? So how people get in touch with me. So you can find me on LinkedIn, Robert Stevenson. That's a great place to find me and for us to have have conversations.
I'm pretty active in that space. What's my biggest learning? I guess it's it's it's the circles. It's all circular. We come back to things and there is value in revisiting. Because it's never the same layer, it's always spiraling. So always going up. But it can feel like we're revisiting, but we revisit with a new, a new set of ideas, a different perspective, a little bit more knowledge in that circling. And so circling is something that's very valuable and useful as a self practice.
Yeah, my insight is the silence, the conductor and the silence. I'm going to think about that because that's really useful. So Robert Stevenson, thank you for joining me at the Coaching In today. I'm Claire Pedrick and thank you listeners for listening. Bye bye. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media.
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