You're at the Coaching Inn, 3D Coaching's virtual pub where we enjoy conversations with people who engage in the world of coaching. Hello, I'm Claire Pedrick and today I'm in conversation with Nathan Whitbread, the Neurodivergent Coach. Hello, Nathan, welcome. Hi, Claire. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. It's wonderful to hang out with you here at the Coaching Inn. Pleasure. Welcome to my pub. Love it. Do you serve relay over here? Only virtually. So tell us about you.
Yeah, of course. So my name's Nathan Whitford. I run an organization called the Neurodiversion Coach, which is me at the moment, but we'll see where that goes. And it's an organization that specializes at the moment in supporting individuals who have neurodiversity in the workplace.
But that is not to restrict where it will go because it's called the neurodivergent coach because actually I'm neurodivergent, I have a dyslexic diagnosis and it felt like a good launch point to start a business with. That's amazing. Right out there. I like that. It feels fun. And we're going to talk about neurodivergence and we're also going to talk about intersectionality. So what do they mean in English? That's a really good question.
And you know what, every time I hear someone say that, I think, you're just stalling, aren't you? And it's not just kind of just take it in. So, yeah, so actually, yes, it's a new diversity is neurodivergent or neurodiversity is all about different thinking styles. Some of those are linked to medical diagnosis. Some of them are linked to acquired conditions. There's a whole wealth of different stuff there. But it's about people that fundamentally think a little bit differently.
And what does it include? Neurodiversity. Alright, so Neurodiversity would include typically you've got sort of the dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADHD, autism as the general traits that would come through. But then what we also see now as well is a broadening of that umbrella to include things like acquired neurodiversity, which is around PTSD, sometimes migraines and other medical conditions.
And the reason why it's broadened is because all of these conditions generally involve different thinking styles and also just different needs and requirements in the workplace. So it's important that they're all considered together. And intersectionality, somebody said to me this morning when I said I was going to do a podcast on intersectionality, they said it's multiple boundary spanning. How do you define intersectionality, Nathan?
I think I define it as that we're all unique, wonderful human beings. We've got very different starting points and different stuff going on in our lives. And intersectionality really is where all of our stuff comes together in us. And that can sometimes be an amazing opportunity, you know, with the perfect stuff coming together. And other times that can be the perfect storm. that intersectionality, where that all meets is in that individual.
So we're acknowledging that everyone's differently different. Absolutely. Which is interesting in the workplace, right? Yes, absolutely. And the reason why it's particularly interesting in the workplace is because I think what we see is an idea that people perform uniformly, that they have, that they do things in the same way and that's just not true. And that can often be highlighted by certain things that happened in people's lives.
But because that's not true, that can create... potentially a lot of problems and potentially a lot of opportunities. So what's your story to get you to this point, Nathan? Because you're very out there and I love that. So, yeah, so my story actually is about someone I guess I would describe myself as a... Someone who's relied on great relationships throughout his life. Someone who's got by because people get on well with him and like him. But that kind of runs out of road at certain points.
So I've worked in the technology sector, I've worked in the banking sector, doing lots of different really interesting roles. But when me and my family decided to relocate, we came up to Cambridge. I started just doing a sort of a business development job for a small organisation in Cambridge. And off the back of that got very interested in marketing and then then decided to go off and do some qualifications with the Chartered Institute of Marketing.
And they so I signed up for this in a very gun -ho way, which is my normal sort of style, get stuck in, have a go and then found out that it was going to be sort of a closed book essay style examination. Now I spent my life avoiding essays. I did an engineering degree which enabled me to avoid essays. And I was nearly physically ill when I found out how they were going to assess this qualification.
And I spoke to my better half, my wife, and she said, well, you do realise there's probably something not quite right about you. You've not worked that out yet. And I said, no, isn't I just completely normal? No. So some of the things, some of the things, the ways you behave, especially around, you know, sort of writing and stuff is quite unusual. So I went off and had an assessment and came back with a dyslexic diagnosis.
And that sort of started my whole journey to finding out about what sort of support was out there. And interestingly, through that, I got some coaching and sort of technology support, which kind of helped me do things that I've never been able to do before. Wow. So it's made a huge difference then, that awareness. Yes, it has. And I think it just really hit home for me with a little bit of help.
And I mean, in the sense of I was like, why Lenny Henry phrased it when he when he did comic relief, you know, a leg up, not a hand out, you know, a little bit of a leg up to understand a bit more about yourself and get some help around strategy in terms of tools and technology can really enable an individual to to express themselves and do things that they've never done before or didn't think they'd ever be able to do. Wow. That sounds like it led you nicely into wanting to be a coach.
Yeah, well, it wasn't it wasn't, to say it wasn't, it wasn't it wasn't straight into being a coach to get to becoming a coach, I think to recognising that that was what I could do really well took a little while because I think one of the problems that one of the things that comes up really, I think when when you have particular traits around it is you see the things that you're really good at as normal and everyone could do.
the things that you're rubbish at or you find difficult, you think, gosh, I'm the only one. So you don't recognise what you're good at at all. You don't recognise, as I sort of said a little bit in my story, I didn't recognise actually, not everyone can build relationships quickly. Not everyone creates trust in people and builds rapport and actually can operate really effectively like that. I just, everyone did that, but... that everyone else could also write brilliantly and I can't.
So that's the bit that I always found really tough, which I think, yeah. But that's a bit of a revelation when your worldview is, things that I do well, they're just normal, everyone can do that. But things I'm rubbish at, well, everyone doesn't struggle. No one else struggles with those. I'm just a complete imposter, kind of doing that. So there's something about acknowledging who we are. and being able to be open and honest about that. Yeah. Yeah, big stuff. And it being okay.
Just to pick, I mean, I guess picking up some of the things we've talked about on the, you know, since we're doing some work together. It's okay to not be okay. That's okay. That's a good starting point. From there, you can work out what to do next. Yeah. We're all a bit broken. And I think, and I think we're also robust enough, most of us to deal with our own stuff, given the space and time to process it.
And I think that's really, really important because... especially in the sort of work that I do, which is around the workplace. Anyone that is in work has generally passed a huge threshold to be in work, you know, to apply for a job, they've held down a job and they generally have been successful at some time, though they may be having some difficulties in the present time. But, you know, they can do that. They can hold their stuff together. They don't need someone to kind of mollycoddle them.
They need someone who's going to support them and work with them. to kind of work through the things that are a bit tricky and give them some perspective, help them get some perspective, give them help get some perspective because actually they can get perspective.
It's just often someone who's prepared to take a slightly different point of view on where they're at and help them recognise where that, how far they've come as opposed to the mountain that they, you know, how far they've come as opposed to just looking at the mountain that they perceive in front of them. What difference does the fact that you're very open about being different, what difference does that make in your coaching?
I think it's to do with, so one of the things that we talk about quite a bit in this kind of world that I frequent occasionally in terms of diversity and differences is masks. And masks is all about, and it's true for everyone, it's not special, I'd love to say it's particular and unique to what I do, but it's not, everyone carries masks at times. But I think the process of de -masking, Are you saying that, you know, this is who I am. This is the stuff that I find tough.
This is the stuff that I know I'm, I'm quite confident that and I think I'm really okay at. Gives other people a sense of authenticity about who you are. And I think, well, I know, and people that I've met who behave like that towards me, I find that incredibly, I guess it's like a huge weight lifted off. I mean, we don't have to pretend. We can just be straightforward about this.
And I think just that process gives a huge lift off because then it's like, well, actually, what mask do I need to shed? Because if I shed the mask, I can then be better at the things I'm brilliant at and start to be honest and manage the stuff that I find difficult. Yeah. And some of those masks are about... difference, aren't they? And some of the masks are for lots of other reasons as well. I wonder if everybody wears a mask at work. I think sometimes, sometimes.
And I think it's, you know, it's not always to the, yeah, yeah. It's not always, it's not a healthy thing in lots of situations. I know there's a time that conformity helps, but if you wear that mask all the time, and one of the things that I observe and I've experienced myself is it's exhausting. And if you're going to wear that mask every day, who... who are you going to take that mask off with outside of work? And is there other baggage that comes with that?
Because that's the other thing, you know, the families and often the people you care about most will get the thick end of it if you're having to wear a mask when you can't be who you really are at all in your workplace. That can often involve a lot of trauma and a lot of heartache, I think, from what I've both experienced and observed. Yeah. Yeah. Have you read the Medici effect by Franz Johannsson?
No. So he talks about the value of hundreds of years ago, people would gather in Florence, I think it was, where they would bring different artists and different types of people and they'd all kind of get together to create and co -create good, useful insights into the world and invent things and decide things. And It's all about bringing together difference. So it's called the Medici effect. It's worth a read actually.
But one of the things that he talks about is how easily organizations fall into the trap of wanting to recruit people who are the same. And he talks about an organization being like a box. And if you've got lots of circles that are all about the same shape, and they don't intersect much, going back to that thing we talked about intersectionality earlier, then you have quite a small box. So then you decide to recruit somebody who's really different. And in the book he calls her Louise.
So he says, you recruit Louise. Louise is completely different. So Louise's experience and skill and how she does what she does barely intersects with everyone else. But the pressure from the organization is either to make Louise like them and pull her into the circle and make the box smaller or to push Louise away because we don't like Louise because she's different from us. and then Louise leaves.
But what he's talking about in the book is how do we actually get those Louise and everyone else in the organisation to really be as you're describing it, our best, because that broadens the perspective and also the capability of the organisation, because it keeps the box bigger. Yeah. And it's more than just boxes.
It's kind of like, it's kind of like we've got the thing in the middle and having people be able to stand from different points of view and look at it and say, well, it might look great in the front, but the side, we need to do something else maybe because we're missing some opportunity to innovate and be better than our competitors or maybe move into new markets or maybe just do something different because we can reimagine what we're doing. Yeah, so what's your dream, Nathan? I dream, I dream.
I think my dream is that, and I was really struck by this when I first started to do this sort of coaching work, was that the cleaner would be in the office and there'd be a board meeting happening. And as that board meeting's happening, that person overhears what's going on in that meeting. And... because of their experience of what they've been doing and maybe something else they've picked up, they have some really incredible insight into the direction that the organization needs to go.
And they're able to communicate that. And I know this is not an accidental encounter, but the fact that the mechanisms would be in place within the organization to recognize the value that person can bring. and that influence would then have a positive effect on where the organisation is going. Yeah. As long as they understood what was going on in the boardroom and they were speaking English, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Which is an interesting thing, is that because I've heard an awful lot of discussions at that level that probably don't make a lot of sense. People aren't necessarily talking in plain English about what they actually want to achieve. Yeah, because you're talking about people believing they have a legitimate right to be heard. But that does require them to understand what they heard in the first place. Yes. And actually, I find language to be quite excluding. Absolutely. Feels like a power tool.
Yeah, and coaching is a classic example of that. It's now over, obviously, you know, I think we've, correct me if I'm wrong here, but you know, you've got, you've got different types of coaching, haven't you, in terms of just, is it systematic coaching? well, there's all this different terminology and when you get to the nub of it, you go, okay, so what you mean is the whole person. Okay, so what you mean is this, why didn't you just say that?
Yeah. Yeah. Basically, you can call coaching anything if you put a name in front of it and then you can build a course around it and then you can sell it and then you can make money from it. Yeah, yeah, I guess that's not to take away from the fact that there is some valuable stuff to go on, but it's just this idea that it's magical and different.
And yeah, I get the fact it's a business, I understand that, but I think you have to be quite There's also some authenticity there in terms of what are you actually doing here? What's different about what you're doing? And does it provide real value to the person you're going to work with? Is it going to help them in their thinking journey? Or is it going to get in the way? Yeah, and we're not going to know that, are we, unless we work it out together? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm just, I'm going to go off on a complete tangent here, but I love that idea of playing together with it. Yeah. And it's, you know, for me, everything we do in this field is about play. I mean, proper play, you know, a grown up play, but we're taking something, we're stretching it and tearing it around, see if we can break it and put it back together in the service of the person we're working. Yeah. And always in service of the person that we're working with.
And actually, when I listen to recordings of coaches coaching, I hear a lot of times we haven't worked out what that is together. And one of us believes we understand what we need to do and kind of goes ahead and does that without checking that out. Yeah. And I don't understand, I don't know how to work with anyone unless I ask them. And then I don't know how to work with them next.
No, because I don't know how to work with them next time, because they might not want to work the same way as we worked last time. They might want to do it in a completely different way. So I guess in some ways, if you've done good work one time, actually that approach may not be valid again. Exactly. Exactly. But you've dealt with that. Or collectively you've dealt with that, I should say.
Yeah, and every conversation is between two unique human beings at a particular moment and time in history. And when we meet next time, we've developed and changed as human beings. So we're slightly different from the way we were last time, because we've had other experiences. And it's a different time and place in history. So we have to work it out again, I think. Do you think you hit some different intersections there possibly? Yes, indeed. And the thing is, we're all different, aren't we?
So I confirm that. I had a call this morning with somebody as a kind of social coffee chat because both of us had had had a close relation die in the last two years. And it was it was it was our mothers. And so we agreed that we would have a conversation just to check in to see how we were getting on.
And what became really clear really quickly was that the only thing that we had in common is that both of us had a close relation die in the last two years, because how we felt, how it was, what we experienced was completely different for both of us. And Isn't it easy to say to somebody, I understand because my mum died. But I understand what it was like for me when my mum died, but I don't understand what it was like for him or you or somebody else when that happens to someone else.
And I have a little quote here on my desk that says, seek first to understand and then to be understood. And I love it because somebody embroidered it after a course because we used to use those words on a course, but we don't use them anymore because I don't think I agree with it. I think it's seek first to listen. Because I understand what it's like for me, but I don't understand what it's like for anybody else because I'm not them. understand it obviously, I do get it. I mean that sincerely.
No, I do mean that really sincerely because I think this really resonates as well with something you've talked about quite a bit which is the idea of noticing. And as soon as you put the word understanding you're not just noticing, you're processing what you've noticed. Actually, in order to process well you've got to have noticed well in terms of, and sometimes you're not even supposed to process are you because actually...
You haven't got the full picture anyway, you can only notice what you're noticing. And it's, yeah, it's very true. And I don't know, I think, I think it's quite interesting you say that because the words that keep coming to mind when you say is the almost how dare you. Yeah. When someone says to you, I understand. And it's not because they, it's not valid what they've experienced, but it's like, they don't, they would never know what my experience is, they ask me. Yeah. I just had an insight.
Thank you, Nathan, as you were talking about that and about noticing. I think understanding is about us making meaning of what somebody else says. But we can't make meaning for them, we can only make meaning for ourselves. So that's, I now understand what you're saying when I connect it with my story, but that doesn't mean I understand what the story's like for you. they're standing on a different hilltop, looking at the same scene.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in the end, you know, we're humans talking to humans, aren't we? And it's about how do we be human with one another, I think. I really, yeah, I really get that. And because I think we kind of overlook the wonder of what that means to be human. And we lay a lot of complexity on top of that when in fact being human is quite complex enough on its own. Yeah. And because of all the different variables that are involved with what that means. And it's...
It's such a privilege to work with people, whoever they are, and to work with them on their stuff together. It feels, it feels sometimes very disingenuous when you're trying to bring tools and models into play. can get in the way of them actually doing that good work they need to do. And I think that's, and I know there's a lot of best intention there. I know, you know, I absolutely believe in academic research.
I think it's a good thing that we explore, never stop exploring, but we still need to be mindful that that moment that we're in is a unique, I'll use the word again, intersection because it feels so appropriate, but that's a unique moment. And whatever we bring to that place, we've got to hold it very gently and be prepared to let it go. Yeah. Yeah, holding light. I'll keep thinking of Top Gun. I don't know if you've ever seen the film.
You've told me that before and I've downloaded the little video clip and I'm going to write a blog about it. is it the bit at the beginning where he goes, where he goes there, where Maverick, where Tom Cruise's character comes in and he goes there and the kind of senior guy goes, you know, so and so and they were number one, he quit. You guys are number one, he was holding on too tight, he held the edge, he lost the edge, you know, to holding on too tight to what he was doing.
I don't know if that was the same with Bob, but you know, he was just really stuck there, you squeeze something so tight, you lose it. It's kind of like trying to hold like cooking, though, if you squeeze it tight, it just comes out your fingers, where you've got to hold it gently or an egg. Because that was the other image you had, didn't you, from the other podcast you did. You talked about holding the egg of leadership, wasn't it? You hold it gently enough to keep it secure.
you can't squeeze it too tight or let it go too loose. Otherwise you'll lose it. Yeah, that was well remembered. I've been on a bit of a blitz. So Nathan, it's been great fun. So you've talked about your story into understanding yourself more. And you've talked about using this stuff and your kind of dream for the workplace. How does coaching fit into this? I just, for me, I think great coaching. Well, you do use that word great coaching because I think there is a difference.
is about enabling that because if you really believe that people are the key, which I do, I think individuals are the key, actually real people that breathe and not just structures, but people are the key. Coaching is all about enabling them to participate and be the very best they can be. And that's the role I think it plays. And in some ways, it's... I don't know about how you feel, but in some ways it feels a bit fraudulent because actually they've got it.
People already know what they've got it inside them, what the magic they need. What the coach does is help them recognise it. And actually, and sometimes it's about accountability, isn't it? Sort of saying actually, well, who are you going to be accountable for that or how are you going to make that happen? But they've kind of got all the ingredients. They're just asking you to come in and... and help them sort through their filing, if that makes sense in terms of what they're going to do next.
So it's kind of like one of those sort of like going into the attic, you know, sort of home, you know, sort of those, I forget what that ridiculous program was on Channel 4, I think it was, you know, we used to go up into the attic and they'd find all these treasures. The treasures are all there. You're just going to have a little sort around and pop out the rem around and say, that will be worth an absolute fortune. Do you want to take that down? You can get rid of that. That's a bit rubbish.
know, from what you're describing, because people have got this magic in, they got it, it's kind of almost like a bit of organization sometimes, or it's a bit of help in just them even recognizing what they already know, but the fact you've given them some space, some kind of like protected space and time to approach it, and you, I guess what you do do in the coaching arena is you kind of create that space or capsule or
boundary to have that dedicated time to think where as the coach you facilitate the removal of distractions and you keep the person accountable to what they said they want to do. There's obviously value there but they have the ingredients, they've got all the raw ingredients, you're just helping them I guess access it and act upon it.
And I'm wondering with some of the people you work with who come to you because they are neurodivergent themselves, whether you're actually giving them permission to take some time to look at it because they've been living with the mask on and therefore a lot of it's been hidden.
Yeah, for some individuals that's absolutely true and part of that process is a little bit is saying actually it's okay to not be okay and also to help them identify because it's not just pure coaching there is a mentoring element and there has to be because lots of the people that I work with have come because they want some help with something. Yeah. So actually there's some information transfer that goes on. So I'm not just wearing a coach's hat. I have to take that off.
And sometimes that's about mentoring. Sometimes it's about, you know, pointing out the resources so they can find out more about specific things. But then, so then come back into a coaching environment and say, well, what does that mean for you actually? What do we need to do together to help you move forward with that? And I think that's the thing. And that's part of the reason for me, for me, particularly wanting to professionalise as a coach.
So I've been doing this for a while, but wanting to really professionalise and building the structures around that, because actually I think you've got to do that bit really well and make sure you're not leading, make sure you're not putting your journey onto people, but actually being very much co -creating what they're going to do next and how they're going to move forward. Yeah. without influence, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. You sound like you've been well -trained, Nathan.
Yeah, I've worked for this organisation called 3D Coaching that's been particularly helpful. It's been great actually, because I think what's, so for anyone listening I've been doing the Transforming Conversations course, which I heartily recommend if you want to be a coach or you just want to learn how to have better conversations.
I'm not being paid to say that by the way, but I really have enjoyed it because it's has helped me think about how I do conversations and how I do them well, especially in a coaching context, so that I don't get in the way of what other people are trying to do. Because like many people, I think that I've worked with historically, especially in the community, we want to really help people.
And the problem is when you really want to help someone, that help can sometimes transpose into getting in the way of... thinker thinking and solving their own stuff themselves. Yeah, totally. Thank you, Claire. That's been very helpful. Well, it's a pleasure. So as we go into 2022, can't believe we've got there already. So what's your hope for the world of people who are neurodivergent and that and the whole concept of intersecting difference. What's your big hope?
I think my biggest hope is that specifically around organizations that we are actually able to embrace and empower those individuals to bring their absolute best selves to work each day.
Because new diversity at the moment is a bit of a kind of, it's a topic at the moment, which is great, is its profile, but with that comes the danger of... guess what we've been through with regards to global warming and things like rewash, you know, like when it neuro wash, you know, we say all the right things, but don't really do it.
Yeah. And the classic thing is, you know, when we're hiring, we say we're going to be super sensitive and all these adjustments and, and, and do all this stuff to support people. But the reality is that doesn't happen when people get into organizations. Yeah, so my dream is actually start to make it around, not just because we have to, but because we want to, because we recognise actually different approaches to thinking benefits all of us.
Yeah. And sometimes we just need to take a little step back and ask a few more questions about why this is happening and what's the opportunity here. Yeah. As opposed to the, I guess, many of our natural responses that doesn't quite fit. I don't like that. Let's stop it. What a great dream. So if people want to contact you, Nathan, how do they do that? Yeah. So I've got a website, which is the neurodivergent coach .co .uk or .com or you can contact me through LinkedIn. So I'm Nathan Whitbread.
And if you've been there and you're doing a coach or I think Nathan Whitbread, you should be able to find me. And I'd be really happy to have a conversation if anyone would like to talk about this further, wants any support or just wants to even know where to start really when you're starting to think about what does it mean to embrace neurodiversity in the workplace. Wow, thank you Nathan. So thank you Nathan Whitbread. What a great conversation. It's been really good to have you here.
Thank you for coming. And I... Thank you. And I'm Claire Pedrick and I've been hosting you at The Coaching In. Have a good week. Bye bye everybody. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media. And if you'd like to become a regular at The Coaching In, you can subscribe on Podbean and all major podcast channels. We look forward to welcoming you next time.
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