This is The Coaching Inn, a podcast from 3D Coaching. Welcome to 3D's virtual pub, The Coaching Inn. I'm Claire Pedrick, and today my companion is coach Julian Mack, who emailed info at 3Dcoaching.com with a question. I love this. Maybe there's a way of making a podcast called How to Avoid Falling into the Corporate Babble Track. I'll happily be your guinea pig. So I said to Julian, come to the coaching in and let's talk. So Julian, welcome. Thank you very much Claire, lovely to be here.
And it's lovely to have you sitting here by the fire, not having a drink, right? Tell us a bit more about yourself. Well, I'm a late developer, I would say. I worked in sport for a long time and then started my own business age 39, which some people would... judge is quite late, but actually I think it's a very good time to start businesses. I've always thought myself about 10 years behind all my friends. Ultimately, that was a successful business.
I sold it back in March 19, fortuitously, just before the great crisis and the pandemic. And then I was a bit lost, to be honest. And having always been fascinated by potential, I looked to the world of coaching and went and got trained up and I'm trying to build a boutique business in coaching. Fantastic, fantastic. Well, it's really good to talk to you. And your question, avoiding cliche for beginner coaches, say more.
Well, I think, I mean, I'm aware that most of your guests are of the expert variety and have been in the game a long time. So I'm probably representing the bunch that's a bit newer to it and on the journey at the start of the journey. And I think we'd all love to thank you for the way you guide us with simplified coaching and all the great work you do with your practicums, which I'd highly recommend by the way. I'll put a link in the program notes, Julian. No problem.
I mean, I think there's a temptation to fall into cliche and to over promise and maybe even adopt big powerful words of what coaching can do. And that danger of over -promising, I think, can lead you into trouble with clients. But I can understand the temptation. And so my question was, how do we talk about ourselves as coaches in an authentic and appealing way, but without drifting into awful cliche and sort of corporate babble, which I've always tried to avoid in my businesses.
Yeah. So how do we say it as it is and say it simply is what you're saying, isn't it? Yeah. And I think it picks up the theme of of what you do so wonderfully in your book, which is, you know, there's a temptation for people to overcomplicate coaching. And you've always said, look, it's a thinking conversation where one of you is doing a lot of thinking, which I just love the simplicity of.
And I'm wondering how we help newish coaches to articulate their proposition effectively, but not in a cliched hackneyed way. And you read a lot of particularly around the word potential and purpose. you know, you can do a deep sigh about some of the ways people are talking about it. And so I was trying to look at a refreshing pithy direct way. And I suppose seek your thoughts and guidance in a way on how newish coaches can do that well, since you've perfected the art of simplifying things.
Yeah, but marketing is always my weakest link. Partly, I think, because of exactly the reason that you said, because I think there's something about what can coaching do? So coaching can help people reach their potential. Absolutely. It can do amazing things. And it might only be a two minute conversation that changes somebody's life forever. However, it's really easy, I fear, think, wonder for that to turn into sounding like I can do this for you.
Yes. And of course the challenge in coaching, is that I can't do anything for you. I can facilitate you to do it for yourself, but I can't make any promises because it really depends on how hard you're willing to work, how vulnerable you're willing to be, and how deep you're willing to dig. Spot on, spot on. I agree violently.
And I think it takes a bit of courage if you're setting out on the journey to hold that line and speak in an understated way about it, not to do yourself down, but to speak with authenticity, but not to get involved in hyperbole. Yeah, and I think, you know... For me, in my journey, one of the things about getting grey hair and being pushing 60 is that actually I can say what I like.
So if you heard that thing I did for the, for the whatever they were, International Coaching and Supervision, International Center for Coaching Supervision, I did a talk for them the other day and it started, it's on YouTube and it started out where I said, I don't know how to coach anybody. Because I don't. I don't know how to coach anybody unless I ask them. And then it's a co -created thing. But I can say that now because I've got nothing to lose.
I'm not sure I would have had the confidence to say that 10 years ago. But then you get yourself exactly in the situation that you're describing, which is you get yourself in the world of hyperbole. And then it feels that you're almost in competition. with all sorts of people who are saying almost exactly the same thing. And if you're dissonant to that, people think, well, they don't know what they're doing. Yeah. Absolutely. You've articulated the problem. So it's really tricky, I think.
Yeah, I tell you where I land and I thought about this ahead of talking to you about it is that ultimately you can only be straightforward about your experience, your reasons for being in coaching and perhaps get down to the real essence of why you coach and why you enjoy it. And maybe some case studies of how you have been a thinking companion, which is an expression I'm stealing from you. But I love that idea of. you know, companionship and thinking partnership rather than coaching.
I think the problematic word. And I think if you can be honest about that, in my case, I'm fascinated by midlife go -getters, people who may have done well, but they're not done. They want to do more and they need a bit of clarity and direction, maybe some help on thinking about clarity, direction and confidence to do it.
And I think if you can be plain about that's why you're motivated to be in it and say it straight, without trying to use big fancy words and get into that competition, then I think you're being true to yourself and you're being honest with the market. But it does take a bit of courage to stand in your ground there. Yeah, and actually the way you're describing the people you want to work with, they're not going to be in the least bit impressed by any of those big words, are they?
Because they've been in that world and they're not in that world and that's why they're going to come to you. Exactly. Yeah. And I think also, if we're honest, in the first couple of years, it does, you know, I got in that confusion and I don't know if other coaches can relate to this where to niche or not to niche or to niche or not to niche for our American cousins. And, you know, I, I, I land firmly in your camp, which is there are five to 10 reasons why people come to coaching.
And as a, as a, you might be able to help them with all of them. So to do yourself into one corner of a niche and then get involved in all this sort of fancy marketing to me, it doesn't appeal. But it's taken me a while to figure that out. Yeah. Well, what a great thing to figure out. Because actually you can have a conversation with anybody who can have a conversation with you. Some people won't want to have a conversation with you and that's okay. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And I can remember when I started out meeting lots of coaches who would spend hours and hours and hours tweaking the wording on their websites and printing leaflets in those days, printing leaflets. Do you remember the old days? And in fact, in the olden days, we didn't have websites because websites happened after I started coaching. Yes. But printing leaflets, getting the words right, working out where they were going to go with their leaflets.
and spending endless amounts of money on marketing. And I think the best thing I've ever done is I've never spent any money that wasn't already in the business apart from the 500 pounds that I set up with at the beginning because I realized that I would need to spend money before I earned money. So I put 500 pounds into the business and I've never put any other personal money in ever, nor borrowed any money. So either it's there to pay for stuff or it isn't there to pay for stuff.
And if it isn't there to pay for stuff, we're not having it. And that's been really good. But I've seen people spend thousands and thousands and thousands. Or you go to networking meetings in the olden days when you went to networking meetings and people give you their elevator speech and then you ask a supplementary question. It turns out they've never worked with anybody. So there's something about being real, isn't there? That's a really nice way of putting it.
And I mean, I've also fallen into the trap. And again, I wonder if people of a similar experience to me have done the same of oversubscribing to courses. yes. And some of the descriptions that coaches make of themselves are frankly laughable, which is why I come back to the non mumbo jumbo of thinking partner or thinking companion. not elevating yourself onto any kind of pedestal of any sort, but just being a co -creator of the space in which you can hear yourself.
And that's another, I think, elegant definition of coaching, where you're able to let someone listen to themselves and then make the meaning as you tell us in your book themselves as well. And some of the, and it might be a tiny bit American, dare I say it, some of the sort of over -elaborate descriptions of experience and positioning in the market. I just, I just love that.
Yes, and it and it's dangerous, because it makes the coach look as though they've got a huge amount of power, even if the power it makes them look as though they've got his personal power. So I've got a lot of personal and professional power, because I've done this course, this course, this course, and this course, with this famous person and that famous person and the other famous person. But what that's doing is saying, let me tell you how special I am.
And the thing that's most special about us is that we're not special. Yeah. Well, we are and we're not in that in that we just bring our humanity. Yeah. To listen, to offer and to say what we see. So to offer it to listen to somebody truly to offer a question or an observation and to say what we see and And then they get the insights and it's the insights that change the world. And it's the insights we can't make happen.
And it doesn't matter if you spend $20 ,000 on a course, you still can't make somebody have insights. I think the other thing about your simplicity of explanation there, Claire, which is wonderful, is it does take the pressure off the coach, particularly if you haven't got 10 ,000 flying hours like you have. Coaches, newish coaches can put pressure on themselves.
And if you stick to the principles you just articulated, I think you're likely to be more yourself, more comfortable in your coaching approach and style. And you'll get better results without putting yourself under the pressure to do so. Yeah. So I think it makes lots of sense to me. I'm running two courses at the moment. One's a fast track one that we do in eight sessions with lots of video teaching. And the other one is live. So it lasts over longer and the whole thing is live.
And this week they're both on the same session, which is quite interesting to look at. And this week, both of them are on the session where they say it works. Yeah. So one group's done 14 hours live with me and the other group has done seven hours live with me and they're already saying it works. And as far as I'm concerned, on one level, that's job done. Of course, we now need to say, now you believe it works, let's start really learning.
Yeah. Yeah. But getting people to have that experience early on is really important. So actually, one of the things I thought about, Julian, as you started talking earlier, was, you know, what do you say to people? What I say to people is let's give it a go. John Whittington, the coaching constellations guy, he says, if you want to have a chemistry session with somebody, then then actually do some work in the chemistry session. So instead of talking about it, they're actually experiencing it.
Because of course, when you get to that point, if you're on cell, which is tell you're going and I'm going to tell you this and I'm going to tell you this and I'm going to tell you this and then when you come to the coaching, that's what they're expecting. Do you, I mean, you mentioned that you're allowed to now say what you like because you're so established, which is a lovely, lovely position to be in.
I mean, if you do put yourself in the shoes of a coach who perhaps isn't oversubscribed with clients, what would be your advice to those coaches? Because they are still making their reputation. I mean, you're now deserving of your busyness and... you can choose and I think you sometimes think about which bits of work having read 4000 weeks, you think about which bits you prioritize. I do. If you put yourself back in the shoes where you're not oversubscribed, what's the advice in that situation?
Something else came to me as you said that and I forgot what it is. I think my advice is... Because the other, if I come at it from a tangent and then I'll tell you what my advice is. So the other thing is these are my fees. So I hear people tell me how much they charge and then I discover they don't have any clients. So obviously you don't charge that if you don't, if you're not actually doing any work, that's not your fee.
So I think there's something about knowing what a fair fee is before you put it through the filter of in the corporate sector, you can. multiply it by this many times, or if people haven't got any money, you need to divide it by this many times.
But if you kind of work out what a fair fee is, then you sort of know what your, what your, your kind of core center of gravity number needs to be for this to mean that you can pay your bills, you can pay for your training and your supervision and whatever, whatever. So, so, so getting that core thing and actually in our business of coaching masterclass, which you can get on the website, there's a thing about how to work that out. But to work, so know what that is.
And then I think be willing to be flexible about what you give away and what you don't give away and how much actually you're willing to charge. So, so another one is know when, know why and what. What's the reason for giving something away for nothing? Yeah. So the reason for giving something away for nothing might be that you're giving it because you're choosing to. So we're about to do a piece of work, we think, in South America. It's really exciting. The person... There you are.
The person who's negotiating it is talking to them about what their budget is. but they also know that we're willing to do it for nothing because it's a huge transformational piece of work with a public sector organization in South America who would really value and benefit from this piece of work. So as far as I'm concerned, I don't care if we don't earn anything from that, but I also want to have integrity and enable people to pay something if they've got something.
But if they haven't got anything, that's also okay. So it's about knowing when you give away and why you give away and not giving away too much. So it might be, so one way that beginner coaches can find way to do stuff is to say, look, I'm happy to give you a couple of sessions in exchange for a testimonial. And then we can talk about whether you want to continue and what that might look like. But be really clear what it is you're doing.
So I might know, somebody who I know knows a lot of people and talks about things they like. So I might actually know offering you some coaching for nothing might be really useful because I know you'll go out and talk about me. Yeah. And I think if anybody hasn't listened to your podcast on that, you talk about angels, don't you? The people who very proactively talk about you. And I think identifying those in your world is really valuable. Yeah. If I can offer a build on that, Claire.
Yes, please. And I offer because you've taught us to offer. One of the things I did was I met a lovely man called Ed Haddon, who was very generous with his time as a mentor. He's been coaching for 10 years. He runs a coaching business called Haddon Coaching. And he just went for walks with me while I was training and then said to me, look, we've got a coaching stable. Why don't you join as an associate? and he passed through work and continues to pass through work.
But crucially in the early stages, he took care of the fee discussion. So it took a lot of pressure off me. He said, here's an executive from Google. I've taken care of the fee. You focus on the coaching. Wow. And I would say to young or people who are in the early stages of it, that being an associate to another organization can be a good way both to deal with your nerves around that. my word. What do I charge? Yeah. as well as building your network and creating a source of clients.
So it's worked well for me. Yes, and actually, I think we underestimate the cost of doing our own business building. Yes. So people say associate rates are very low and whatever. But actually, if all you have to do is do the work. Yeah. and not worry about it. And as you say, negotiate the fee and wake up in the middle of the night and think, well, have I negotiated the right fee and all those things. If you can sit light to that, then associate work is amazing.
I'm working with someone at the moment whose whole business is built on associate work and they absolutely love it. And sometimes they do a little bit tweaking. but fundamentally, so a bit more of one and a bit less of something else, but they absolutely love it. And it is a great way to get your miles. So Thomas Leonard, I heard him speak at Friends House in Euston Road in the 1990s. And he was, he said by the Americans to be the father of coaching.
And he said, just go out and coach a thousand people. Yeah. Because it's in the miles that you start really learning the art and the craft of this thing. And actually you can't on day one, when you've only coached one person, know that your niche, whatever you call it, is people with red hair who are between 46 and 51. We need to coach everybody. I did my best learning from somebody who worked in security, in the security industry.
And that came from a personal recommendation because somebody knew somebody and therefore they wanted me to do the work. I've never worked in the security industry again, but I learnt loads and they were really happy with the work. Yeah. I think that's cracking advice. Get the miles in and be open -minded. you'll learn where your energy flows to in time. Claire, the other thing, sorry, go on. And work with people who are connected to other people.
Yeah. So if you say, I'm going to coach, so I go for, I walk three times a day, because that's part of my loving living in the country. And if I was starting out as a coach, I probably might pick up three or four people to coach around and about when I'm walking, because we start conversations and I might easily be able to say, know, would you like a different kind of conversation about this? Because I'm a coach and I'm happy to give you an hour.
Yeah. A different kind of conversation is always easier to say than would you like me to coach you, which sounds a bit odd. But I think one of the skills in navigating this world is to... I can't remember. One of the skills in navigating this world is to, I really, really, really can't remember. There has to be something else and I'll edit that out. Well, the other thing I was going to mention was you interviewed Nick Bolton who, that was a really interesting listen.
One of my bug bears is that because I'm coaching midlife go -getters, some people put them in the box of midlife crisis, which I think is just an awful pejorative expression. And I want to campaign for a better word. And actually Nick came up with a midlife awakening, which I really love. And it supports, I'm a big fan of Richard Boestis and coaching for compassion and his ideal life approach to coaching. And he speaks of life breaks into seven to 10 year cycles.
And at certain stages, you know, I'm... firmly middle -aged, you just have a rethink and maybe a refresh and a reset and a waking up to new things. And I think it would be lovely to rebrand that awful word crisis. So whether I become the champion for that cause, I don't know. In their book, Act Three, Judy and Adrian Reath call it Act Three.
So moving to another chapter, because I think one of the things that I'm hearing pushes your buttons about crisis is that it sounds like something bad's happened. And actually what you're describing is people who've been very fulfilled and happy and have done some great work somewhere who feel that that season of their life has had a good ending and now they need to work out. So now that was great and I loved it and it was life giving and everything and now it's time to look for something else.
It's like a turning of direction, isn't it? Absolutely. Richard Raw calls it second journey or second life. And it comes to us at different times, I think, doesn't it? Yeah. That's lovely. I think both of those act three second life. That's lovely. And for me, I was going to say that very often your early 40s, mid 40s is a fantastic time to start a business. Or if you've got entrepreneurial urges, it's a great time to do it.
But some people have a narrative that they should have done it when they were in their early 20s. But actually you have much more experience, much better network, much more resilience. You just need. sometimes a bit of confidence and belief to go for it. So I think more positive words around that period of life would be a great thing. And actually what you're describing is exactly what we were describing about me earlier, which is, you know, I've got to the age where I can say what I like.
You know, you've almost got to the stage in your career where you can do what you like and say what you like. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I have in a way, So I think you're right that it is a privilege to be able to do and say what you like and be completely authentic. I hadn't, I thought about that in your case, in my case, I suppose, because I aspire to have more hours in coaching before I do that.
I think I've got a little bit of a way to go, even if it's not my sole sort of financial source of income. I think you've earned the right and the rest of us probably need to do the same. But I wonder whether, Julian, you've earned the right to turn the page. To start another chapter.
Interesting way of, yeah, I think I'm rapidly gaining the confidence, but maybe one of the outputs of this conversation is that we all have permission to be very direct and straightforward about why we're coaching and what it gives us. And in a way, that's maybe where your marketing message starts. And if that's... you don't need to fall into the trap of cliche.
Yeah, and I mean, I have to say it's been tricky on the journey because I have felt for a long time and for many years, I felt like I was speaking in a big football stadium and there weren't many of me saying it. I found allies along the way because of course that's what you do, isn't it? You find people who agree with you.
I can remember early on in those first years of coach training, somebody said, if you put all the coaches in the world in a football stadium, the football stadium would still be full next year of all the coaches in the world, but half of them wouldn't be coaches anymore and half of them would be new to coaching. And each year that small pocket would get a little bit bigger.
You know, the people who've kind of... trod the boards and gone a long way, but there's always a lot of new people in the business. And that I think is where the kind of words begin to go to terrify because it sounds a lot because there's a lot of people saying the same things. So that's really interesting. So you're saying that because it's an attractive profession and it's a bit of a zeitgeist at the moment, you have lots of people coming into it with the tendency to be hyperbolic.
Yes. that actually if you stay true to your message and your beliefs and persevere as you have, then in the end, it works out very well. Yeah, I mean, my challenge at the moment, our challenge as a business at the moment is that we know we're a hidden secret. And one of the reasons that we're a hidden secret is that we choose not to make a huge noise about stuff. But actually, that means that people don't know they can choose us.
And I guess the book... coming out has given me more confidence, desire, something just to turn the volume up on that a bit. So it's interesting. Yeah. And I mean, I'm not just saying this to make you feel good, but I think simplifying coaching is a must read for any, for any coach. I really do. But I also think your practicums where you're forced onto the dance floor to use your metaphor, you don't learn dancing by reading it in books.
You learn it by getting out on the floor and shaking your stuff. I think. I would wish that the practicums get much more airing and I wish they were on sort of much more consideration lists for how to train for coaches. Because I think if you become interested in the academics, you can go away and study, you can buy the right book for the right approach. But actually, if you want to have purposeful conversations, you've got to do that under the pressure of observation and effective feedback.
And I think your practicums do that in spades, I really do. Thank you. And of course, we're inviting people to talk about them to others. And that's another form of marketing that is plain, simple, straightforward language, isn't it? Which is to say, if you like it, tell somebody else. But you can also see it for yourself. It's live on the screen. If you tune into one, you watch what happens to people's skill and competency before your eyes. There's no marketing hype around it.
No. So how are we doing on the avoiding the corporate bubble trap, Julian? Well, I think we've done really well. I think we've blown up the myth that you need to get drawn into the trap of marketing, marketing speak. I think your message of what coaching is quite simply and then being very, very consistent, I think is what you were saying about your message and very realistic and accurate is the way to go. And your message will eventually land and your business will grow.
So none of us need to fall in the trap of over -promising about coaching or using language that frankly is corporate babble or mumbo jumbo. I would urge everyone to resist the temptation. I agree. And I think the other thing is to be really consistent at recommending others and have a network of people who consistently recommend you. Because it's much easier to recommend someone else than it is to recommend yourself. Because when you recommend yourself, you sound like you're selling.
Yeah. And people don't like that. Yeah. And that's back to your point about knowing the difference between your angels, your connectors and your fans. Yeah. I mean, your fans are wonderful, but they're not going to help you grow the business, whereas the angels are the ones who proactively talk about you and recommend you. So I think that that that was a very useful message for me. Right. The difference between those people in your life.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what's your line about midlife awakening then? Well, I think it's something we should be positive about. Life moves in cycles. Let's not call it the midlife crisis. Let's call it the midlife awakening. Let's embrace it for being something new. To use your rather elegant phrase, you turn the page and you start a new chapter. And that's really exciting.
And if people are interested in a thinking companion, for that stage, then, you know, There's More to Life was set up to accommodate that based on my own experience. Brilliant. And how do they contact you, Julian? Well, I've got a website www .there'smoretolife .co .uk So to contact Mac, email mac at there's more to life .co .uk So Julian, thank you for coming so that we could think together.
And if you have a question about an aspect of coaching where you'd like to dig deeper, let's talk at The Coaching In. Email us on info at 3dcoaching .com. Thinking about this together out loud will enable other coaches to learn and to make their own meaning. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please share the podcast with a friend who might also be interested. And if you'd like to become one of our regulars at The Coaching In, you can subscribe at podbean .com. or on iTunes.
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